Could you expand on this?  What is "overlay" in your terminology?

Are you thinking of attacks that make use of a consumer VPN service?  Or
perhaps an anonymizing proxy like Tor or Apple Private Relay?

On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 9:15 AM Robert Raszuk <[email protected]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I would like to make an observation that lots of attacks these days have
> moved to overlay and are being transported using legitimate addresses/ports
> in the underlay.
>
> So while I appreciate efforts to make underlay more strict and to enhance
> current methods of source address spoofing detection, let's keep in mind
> that it is trivial to bypass it. It is therefore highly recommended to make
> cost vs benefit judgement before we embark to go on with changes or
> extensions to lot's of routing protocols.
>
> Best,
> Robert.
>
>
> Charter for SAVNET Working Group:
>>
>> Source address validation (SAV) is important to mitigate source address
>> spoofing attacks. To improve the effectiveness, SAV mechanisms should be
>> applied as close to the source as possible. Therefore, it is desired to
>> deploy SAV in both intra-domain and inter-domain networks. However,
>> existing SAV mechanisms like uRPF-related technologies may improperly
>> permit spoofed traffic or improperly block legitimate traffic.
>>
>>
>>
>> The “Source Address Validation in Intra-domain and Inter-domain Networks
>> (SAVNET)” working group will define a protocol-independent architecture and
>> procedures to overcome the limitations of existing SAV mechanisms.
>>
>>
>>
>> Specifically, the SAVNET WG will define procedures that allow nodes to
>> accurately determine valid incoming ports for specific source prefixes
>> taking into account information not currently included in routing protocols.
>>
>>
>>
>> The scope of the SAVNET WG includes the SAV function in both intra-domain
>> and inter-domain networks, and the validation of both IPv4 and IPv6
>> addresses. The WG is expected to address intra-domain solutions first.
>> SAVNET should avoid packet modification in the data plane. Where possible,
>> existing control and management plane protocols must be used within
>> existing architectures to implement the SAV function. Any modification of
>> or extension to existing architectures, or control or management plane
>> protocols, must be done in coordination with the working groups responsible
>> for the architecture, or control or management plane protocol.
>>
>>
>>
>> The SAVNET WG is chartered for the following list of items:
>>
>>    1) Description of problem statement and use cases for SAVNET,
>> including the requirements that need to be taken into account by the SAVNET
>> architecture.
>>
>>    2) Definition of SAVNET architecture and new procedures. This includes
>> both intra-domain and inter-domain networks.
>>
>>    3) Definition of operation and management mechanisms needed to operate
>> and manage SAV-related configurations.
>>
>> 4) Solutions to implementing SAVNET architecture by defining extensions
>> of existing routing protocols. These will be done in coordination with the
>> WGs supervising those protocols.
>>
>>
>>
>> The SAVNET WG will coordinate and collaborate with other WGs as needed.
>> Specific expected interactions include (but may not be limited to): lsr and
>> idr.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Dan Li [mailto:[email protected] <[email protected]>]
>>
>> *Sent:* Monday, May 2, 2022 11:30 PM
>> *To:* [email protected]
>> *Cc:* Lizhenbin <[email protected]>; [email protected]
>> *Subject:* RE: [savnet] SAVNET WG charter
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank Robin for the remind. I am sending this email to colleagues in the
>> RTGWG to introduce the SAVNET work.
>>
>>
>>
>> In IETF 113, we held the SAVNET BOF in the INT Area , with a focus on
>> intra-domain and inter-domain source address validation (SAV) technologies.
>> The basic motivation is to overcome the problem of improper block or
>> improper permit in uRPF-based SAV mechanisms. A control-plane solution was
>> presented in the BoF. The basic idea is: 1) each node notifies its attached
>> source prefixes along the real forwarding path, and the routers along the
>> path accordingly build the correct SAV table; 2) the notification messages
>> are processed in the control-plane via a hop-by-hop manner, and various
>> methods are used to reduce the message overhead; 3) following the routing
>> architecture, the notification is divided into an intra-domain part and an
>> inter-domain part. Given that this solution is highly related to routing
>> architecture, after the BoF it was suggested to apply for a WG in the
>> Routing Area.
>>
>>
>>
>> More materials of the BOF can be found from
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/113/materials/agenda-113-savnet-01.
>> Enclosed please find the drafted WG charter, which will be improved based
>> on the feedback we get from the community.
>>
>>
>>
>> I also hope that RTGWG colleagues who have interest in this topic can
>> join the SAVNET mailing list (
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/savnet), which will be the main
>> channel for future discussions.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *发件人:* Lizhenbin <[email protected]>
>> *发送时间:* 2022年5月2日 17:34
>> *收件人:* Dan Li <[email protected]>; [email protected]
>> *主题:* RE: [savnet] SAVNET WG charter
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Dan,
>>
>> Since the BOF was held in the INT area, maybe not all of the experts from
>> the RTG area register the mailing list of SAVNET and they are not aware of
>> the work.
>>
>> I suggest you could forward it to the mailing list of RTGWG and briefly
>> introduce the design concept and progress of the SAVNET work.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Zhenbin (Robin)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* savnet [mailto:[email protected] <[email protected]>]
>> *On Behalf Of *Dan Li
>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 28, 2022 4:50 PM
>> *To:* [email protected]
>> *Subject:* [savnet] SAVNET WG charter
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear colleagues,
>>
>>
>>
>> One month has passed since the SAVNET BOF in IETF 113. In the IESG/IAB
>> meeting, it was concluded that the problem is well-defined and was
>> suggested that SAVNET be moved to the Routing Area.
>>
>>
>>
>> After discussing with the ADs in the Routing Area, we decide to apply for
>> forming a WG with a relatively narrower scope. Specifically, the potential
>> WG will focus on intra-domain and inter-domain SAV mechanisms by extending
>> existing routing protocols.
>>
>>
>>
>> Enclosed please find the drafted WG charter. We would like to get the
>> feedback from our community.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Dan
>> _______________________________________________
>> rtgwg mailing list
>> [email protected]
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtgwg
>>
> --
> savnet mailing list
> [email protected]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/savnet
>

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