> Hi Ed, sorry to interrupt the conversation,
That's OK. My kids interrupt me all the time. The dog also. Asking questions is the best way to figure out what I am trying to say. Sometimes I interrupt myself. > I went and read the first two pages of the 2012 AF catalog. It is amazing what can be learned by reading stuff. I am glad you took that first step. > Lionel clearly states the difference between their S gauge AF and their new S scale AF stuff, Yes, Lionel does state the difference between their TRADTIONAL products and their SCALE products. I believe that not many people have actually read this material. > ya got me a bit confused. Nope! It wasn't me that got you confused. I am innocent (for once). It was Lionel's definition of their own scale product that has Alan Lambert and you and who knows how many others all confused. > Lionel states "In the new American Flyer S Scale line, locos and cars are made to be as exact as possible to 1:64 scale". Yes, the Lionel catalog does state that. But note that it DOES NOT state that their scale products will run on NMRA-compliant scale trackage. In fact, it sort of states the opposite elsewhere on the same page. > How is this any different from what SHS goals were, or even AM or any of us for that matter? Now you have asked the million dollar question? This is the precise heart of the matter which Alan Lambert and I were discussing with regard to Lionel's new cylindrical hopper. So, by popular request, here goes with the Ed L. version of what 'scale' really means to Lionel and how it differs from the word 'scale' as commonly used by the rest of us out here in the real world. Keep in mind that Lionelville is different from the real world and we will all be better off to recognize and understand Lionelspeak sooner rather than later. FIRST: At this time I am aware of three different meanings to the word 'scale'. The most common refers to the NMRA/NASG standards and specifications which may be seen on their respective web sites. These dimensions may also be seen on the S SIG web site at: http://sscale.org/s-scale-resources/standards/ As you can see, there are very precise dimensions and shapes/contours for both track and wheels. Conforming to these numbers, means you have 'scale' equipment rolling on 'scale' track. If your equipment has larger flanges or a different gauge or any other difference, then it would not be considered 'scale' in a general sense. All brass imports have scale wheels. SHS sold scale wheels with their products. AM still does offer scale wheels. NWSL offers scale wheels. Turnouts by Shinohara, FastTraxx and Tomalco are considered 'scale' turnouts. Other turnouts with closed frogs (croak, croak,...) or different gauging are not considered scale turnouts. With the exception of P:64 standards, the standards referenced above are generally considered to be the most realistic in our modeling world. SECOND: I believe Lionel has two different meanings for the word 'scale'. There is a subtle difference here, but a potentially important one if, like Alan Lambert, you expect to buy a cylindrical hopper and have it run on 'scale' track as defined in the FIRST paragraph above. When Lionel states 'scale wheels' on locomotives, it has (so far) meant conformance with the NMRA specs. Note that some SD70 diesels have two product numbers in the catalog. One product number for 'scale' wheels and the other product number for AF wheels. Same for the U33C in past catalogs, I think. In these cases with a different product number, the Lionel 'scale' wheels are factory-installed and conform to the NMRA specs. So far, everything labeled 'scale' is compatible with each other. OK so far? Perfectly clear, eh? You have realism and compatibility. A great combination..!! THIRD: Lionel's 2012 AF catalog attempts (on page 3) to define what is meant by TRADITIONAL and SCALE. This is where the word 'scale' means something totally different from what I have just described above. In the catalog definition, here are the key phrases: 1. "Both run together" 2. "Difference is a matter of size and the level of accurate detailing" 3. "Scale locomotives and cars are larger in size and more highly detailed in comparison to Traditional ones." Let's dissect what all this means: It means that Lionel is deliberately producing products similar to the traditional AF products of the 1950s for customers who want those products. Lionel is also producing products with a higher degree of realism for those of us who want them. The Lionel catalog states that 'scale' trains might require a larger radius of track when compared to traditional trains which can operate on the traditional metal-tie AF track. Yes, larger steam engines typically do require a larger radius than smaller engines. That is so. It also means that all Lionel products - both TRADITIONAL and SCALE - will operate on the same track system (see #1 above). This is the dead giveaway that Lionel's definition of 'scale' does not include compatibility with NMRA standards. Trains conforming to NMRA specs will not operate on AF track. AF trains will not operate on NMRA-conforming track. It is like gas and water. The two will not mix. (Note: some turnouts claim to accommodate both AF and scale, but those turnouts do not conform to NMRA specs.) Note that Lionel does not claim their so-called 'scale' products will operate on NMRA-conforming track. No such claim is made. And, the pictures of the cylindrical hopper show AF flanges and not 'scale' flanges. For further confirmation, note that the cylindrical hopper does not have an alternate product number for 'scale' wheels. The catalog shows only one product number and the picture shows AF flanges and the Lionel definition of 'scale' states it will be "larger and more highly detailed." In Lionelspeak, it is a 'scale' product. And it will not operate satisfactorily on NMRA-compliant 'scale' trackage. It means that when Alan Lambert attempts to run this product on NMRA-conforming scale track, he will find that it bumps over the guardrails and will frequently derail on switches. As you can see, the NMRA definition of 'scale' differs from the Lionel definition of 'scale'. All clear now? Note that in all of this epistle, I have never stated that one definition is 'good' and the other 'bad'. Or that one is 'correct' and the other 'wrong'. Let's not restart the many-decades-old argument regarding which is best and getting along with each other and who can survive without the other and all that stuff. The important thing here is to recognize the terminology differences and understand exactly what they mean. Hopefully, that has been accomplished. > As you know I am still very new to this scale Everyone new to S gets confused. It happens all the time. Don't worry about it. At least you read the catalog and made the effort to learn. That is the good part. > You stated "There is a significant terminology differential here which can be quite confusing to the uninitiated". Yep, I'm confused again. If you have an opportunity, can you please explain the specific differences you are alluding to. If you have actually read all this stuff, you have just graduated to 'expert' status. Congrats! You now know more than some. > As always, thank you for your time, you have been a great teacher about this scale. You are welcome. The way to learn in this environment is to ask questions. Those who simply lurk are looking for entertainment, not education. That is OK also. > Scott Huston, Las Vegas Nevada. Put a silver dollar on #64 the next time you hit the roulette tables. Send me the winnings as payment for this class on what 'scale' really means. If there are no winnings, then the education just cost you $1. Worth every penny! Cheers..Ed Loizeaux
