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Today's Topics:
1. Re: On sudhaapaayam & nirjaraavaasam (Vidhyanath Rao)
2. kriyAvisheshhaNam - my soapbox (Jay Vaidya)
3. Re: Dating of the Mahabharata War (Vis Tekumalla)
4. Courtesy Indology (peekayar)
5. Frizzle in Sanskrit Puzzle (peekayar)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:52:57 -0400
From: "Vidhyanath Rao" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] On sudhaapaayam & nirjaraavaasam
To: "Ambujam Raman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
> Your reference Panini 3.4.35 (shuShkacuurNaruukSheShu piShaH)
addresses the
> special use of Namul with the dhatu 'piSh' (to grind).
I am sorry, I should have proofread more carefully. I should have said
3.4.45, as silently corrected by Srikrishnaji.
> Interestingly the increasing use of the gerund to describe
contemporaneous
> activity is cited in Buddhist Sanskrit literature (Renou) which is
outside
> Paninian domain. It does suggest that Pandit Jagannatha had more
liberal
> taste in language as he had in his private life ;-)
I don't have Renou's books at hand. Was he talking about 'tvaa' or 'am'?
If it is the former, that fits in with what I said. If it is 'am', I
would like a precise reference, because I would want to see the actual
text citations before I believe it.
> Your 'soap-box' rhetoric will be incomplete until you spell out your
views
> on the dates of Ramayana and Mahabharata ;-)
That will have to wait. But, in a nutshell, I would put the current
texts (I don't think they each by one hand in the form we have them)
between 250 BCE to 300 CE. Panini, I think, was in 4th c BCE, probably
nearer the beginning than the end.
Nath Rao
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 12:23:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] kriyAvisheshhaNam - my soapbox
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I take my stand on the recently vacated soapbox.
Even grammarians of the English language are seriously
questioning the need for terms such as "adverb".
I think we should honor the good sense of sa.nskR^ita
grammarians for never inventing a term with such
doubtful utility.
In the following context:
> Indicating that he interprets sudhaapaayam &
> nirjaraavaasam as kriyaavisheShaNam to "drink (your
> water)" and to "live (on earth)" respectively.
>
the word "visheshhaNam" will do quite well in place of
"kriyaavisheShaNam".
"visheshhaNam" acknowledges the fact that some "words"
in the context of a given sentence are subordinate to
another "word" (the "visheshhya"). It does not mean
"adjective" -- another useless term.
To define unnecessary terms such as
"kriyAvisheshhaNam" will put us in needless trouble,
as I will show below.
Please see these two examples:
(i) adya rAmakathA rAtau vyaraMsIt |
(ii) adya rAmakathA rAtrau vyaraMsIt |
I know, they look exactly the same. The meanings are
also exactly the same:
(i) Today, the rAmakathA ended at night.
(ii) Today, the rAmakathA ended at night.
But in the first, I have chosen the word "rAtrau" from
the avyaya-list, in the second I have used the saptamI
ekavachanam of the word "rAtri".
It is obvious that the word "rAtrau" has exactly the
same function in both sentences. A sa.nskR^ita
grammarian would clearly see it and say that in both
cases, "rAtrau" is the "visheshhaNam" of "vyaraMsIt".
Anglicized grammarians who define nouns, adverbs, etc.
will be forced to say that in the first instance, I
have an adverb and in the second, I have a noun. This
is thoroughly arbitrary, and useless -- the words
serve the exact same function in the sentences!
Now to continue the thought experiment:
I just found my original notes and realized that the
first instance was rAtri-saptamI and the second, the
avyaya, i.e., interchanged. The sa.nskR^ita grammarian
will say -- "If the meaning is the same, my analysis
is the same!" The Anglicized grammarian will have to
switch analyses.
Worse still: I lost my notes! I don't remember which
was the avyaya, and which was the saptamI -- If we
still agree on the meaning, the sa.nskR^ita
grammarian's analysis still stands. The Anglicized
grammarian can't even begin analysis.
Now the sa.nskR^ita grammarian will withdraw analysis
if I say that the sentences are not in sa.nskR^ita at
all, but from a Martian language, and mean "We come in
peace", and "Take me to your leader", respectively.
But we will certainly forgive her that flip-flop!
The moral of the story is: Do not define terms if they
are of no use to our understanding, and give rise to
ambiguities that have nothing to do with form or
meaning.
Partial disclaimer: if someone finds out that the two
"rAtrau" have different svara (I think not), I can
rewrite the whole example over with "chirAt" as the
adverb/noun. I hope, my point is still made.
Also, "Anglicized grammarian" is no insult to English
scholars. Modern English grammarians do excellent
work. I am berating a certain 17th-19th century school
of thought, still taught in our high schools.
The soapbox is now empty for the next person to use.
dhana.njayaH
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 14:03:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Vis Tekumalla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] Re: Dating of the Mahabharata War
To: Vidhyanath Rao <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Ambujam Raman
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Vidyanathrao uvacha:
Your 'soap-box' rhetoric will be incomplete until you spell out your
views
> on the dates of Ramayana and Mahabharata ;-)
That will have to wait. But, in a nutshell, I would put the current
texts (I don't think they each by one hand in the form we have them)
between 250 BCE to 300 CE. Panini, I think, was in 4th c BCE, probably
nearer the beginning than the end.
--
Following are the links for two articles, by Prof Subhash Kak and B.S.V. Prasad on the
dating of the Mahabharata War. Not much luck with Ramayana:-)
http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/column.asp?cid=305835
http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/column.asp?cid=305838
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...Vis Tekumalla
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 19:18:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: peekayar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] Courtesy Indology
To: sanskrit digest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:"Gérard_Huet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Date:Wed, 8 Sep 2004 19:10:58
+0200Subject:[Y-Indology] Release of Sanskrit platform [input] [input] [input]
[input] Objet: Release of Sanskrit platform
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 8 septembre 2004 18:57:09 GMT+02:00
À: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
This is to announce the Sept 8th release of my Sanskrit computational
linguistics platform,
available at http://pauillac.inria.fr/~huet/SKT/
The verbal morphology is now complete, for the present system (present,
imperfect,
optative, imperative), passive, perfect, future and aorist.
This may be tested at
http://pauillac.inria.fr/~huet/SKT/DICO/grammar.html
where you submit the root (in Velthuis transliteration form) and the
present class.
E.g.: bhuu 1, as 2, m.rj 2, han 2, haa 3, hu 3, daa 4, su 5, p.r 6, yuj
7, k.r 8, j~naa 9,
namas 10, etc.
Conversely, a lemmatiser (at
http://pauillac.inria.fr/~huet/SKT/DICO/index.html#stemmer)
attempts to tag inflected words.
Try for instance apibat, akaar.siit, dudoha, vaahyate, etc (clicking on
Verb).
An experimental segmenter/tagger is also available. It will segment
simple sentences, verb final, such as maarjaarodugdha.mpibati,
analysing the required sandhi.
In tagger mode, it gives a shallow parsing of the sentence or phrase,
linking to the
dictionary.
It may be used for instance to tag verb forms with preverbs, such as
utti.s.tha,
and to decompose compounds. It is able to correctly analyse forms such
as
ihehi (iha-aa-ihi = come here), and adhiiye (I learn, with sandhi
duplicating the i).
The current syntax of recognized phrases is N*.(1+V) with V=(P+1).R
that is a list of noun forms followed optionally with a verb, where a
verb is optionally a
preverb followed with a root form; the current set P of prefixes is:
ati, adhi, adhyava, anu, anuparaa, anupra, anuvi, anta.h, apa, apaa,
api,
abhi, abhini, abhipra, abhivi, abhisam, abhyava, abhyaa, abhyut,
abhyupa,
ava, aa, ut, udaa, upa, upani, upasam, upaa, upaadhi, tira.h, ni, ni.h,
nirava, niraa, paraa, pari, parini, parisam, paryupa, pi, pura.h, pra,
prati, pratini, prativi, pratisam, pratyaa, pratyut, prani, pravi,
pravyaa, praa, vi, vini, vini.h, viparaa, vipari, vipra, vyati, vyapa,
vyava, vyaa, vyut, sa, sa.mni, sa.mpra, sa.mprati, sa.mpravi, sa"mvi,
sam, samava, samaa, samut, samudaa, samudvi, samupa.
Full lists of declined forms are available as downloadable free
linguistic resources.
The first one comprises 135,000 declined nouns (it includes pronouns,
numbers, participles,
particles and undeclinable forms such as absolutive and infinitive
forms). The second one
comprises 74,000 conjugated root forms. These data bases are available
in pdf format and
XML (given with a DTD).
This work is still in a very preliminary form, since it has not been
tested yet on real
corpus. I beg the indulgence of the reader, since many mistakes and
omissions remain.
He is kindly requested to report them to me.
Secondary conjugations are not systematically generated, they are
included only if
explicitly reported in the dictionary. Aorist forms are also included
on need, I did
not attempt to generate all forms given in Whitney roots. Also
participles, infinitives,
periphrastic future and perfect, are not systematically generated.
Conditional and precative
are missing. On the other hand, I generally generate both active
(parasmaipada) and middle
(aatmanepada) forms, so report non attested forms only when they do not
make sense
semantically.
All these tools are available one click away from the Sanskrit
dictionary index, at
http://pauillac.inria.fr/~huet/SKT/DICO/
Enjoy
Gerard Huet
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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 07:04:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: peekayar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] Frizzle in Sanskrit Puzzle
To: sanskrit digest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sri A.R.Krishnan has pointed out some
mistakes in Sanskirt Puzzle No.2
Paada 1: ati*ca*lita instead of ati*la*lita
AND nii*ca*m vapuH
instead of nii*la*m vapuH
Paada 2: raakShasa*ca*yaayatha instead of
raakShasa*la*ya....
Paada 3: *caa*paikaviiro instead of
(aa)*laa*paikaviiro
I accept the mistakes in posting the same and give below the correct version of
Ravana’s condemnation of Rama and Sita’s reply.
I apologise to for the mistake.
raamo vaachyativipriyo$tichalitashriistanvi niichaM vapuaH
bibhratkaananasiimni raakSasachayaayattasvayaM vetsi taM.
maaM pashyaativichakSaNo$smi bahudhaachaapaikaviirosmyahaM
labdhashriiprachayastathaasmi kimare chelaM badhaanaasakR^it..
ramae vaCyitiviàyaeitciltïIStiNv nIc< vpu>
ibæTkannsIiç ra]scyayÄSvy< veiTs t<,
ma< pZyaitivc][aeiSm b÷xacapEkvIraeSMyh<
lBxïIàcyStwaiSm ikmre cel< bxanask«t!.
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End of sanskrit Digest, Vol 18, Issue 14
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