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Today's Topics:
1. Sanskrit Glossary (Paulo Lyra)
2. pronounciation of sanskrit (Sylvain)
3. pronouncing sanskrit (Sylvain)
4. Re: sanskrit Digest, Vol 42, Issue 13 (Michel Bostr?m)
5. Sutra discussion (jayesh gohel)
6. inflecting individual letters (Jay Vaidya)
7. Re: sanskrit Digest, Vol 42, Issue 13 (Sai)
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Message: 1
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 23:07:43 -0300
From: "Paulo Lyra" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] Sanskrit Glossary
To: <sanskrit@cs.utah.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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To all Sanskrit Pundits,
At present I am writing a book, namely "Small Glossary of Indian
Philosophy", edited in Brazilian-Portuguese, whereby 90% percent of the
entries included in the Glossary (about 800 words) are in Sanskrit. Could I
submit these entries to any of you and, if convenient, receive suggestions
and/or corrections so that I may feel more confident in publishing this
non-profit work.
Namas te & Pranams, Paulo Lyra, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 11:47:19 -0400
From: "Sylvain" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] pronounciation of sanskrit
To: <sanskrit@cs.utah.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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NamaskAra !
My name is Sylvain. I just subscribed.
i am looking for examples of spiritual sanskrit words that contains some
specific letters.
If i write in Charis SIL, can you read it ? If not, can i send file in pdf ?
Sylvain
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 16:01:16 -0400
From: "Sylvain" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] pronouncing sanskrit
To: <sanskrit@cs.utah.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Hi !
Web sites suggest to pronounce sanskrit a variety of ways.
Are you familiar with International Phonetic Alphabet ?
If yes, I'll send you a file with different suggestions on how to pronounce
sanskrit and I would have some questions.
Sylvain
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 08:06:28 +1000
From: Michel Bostr?m <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] sanskrit Digest, Vol 42, Issue 13
To: <sanskrit@cs.utah.edu>
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<!&[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Dear Shri Bhashyam,
I do not know the traditional Vedic learning system. I do know that it has
enabled the Vedas to be perfectly remembered over thousands of years and
preserved the meanings even of grammatical structures and words that had
been completely lost to Sanskrit by the classical period. This is very
impressive. Any device that forms part of that system cannot lightly be
criticised by one such as me who has trouble remembering who I ate dinner
with last Friday. So I stand corrected and chastened. Can you recommend a
web site or readily available text book that can give an introduction to the
subject?
On the "guru" example, I stand my ground. Googling "guru etymology" yielded
several such purported etymologies on the web, including the one that I had
heard, where "gu" means darkens and "ru", to dispel, so "guru" means
dispeller of darkness". The source given is Advayataraka Upanishad 14--18,
verse 5. Regardless of the source, and with the greatest possible respect
to ancient sages, there can be no etymology of the word "guru" that explains
its meaning of "teacher", since the primary meaning of the word is "heavy";
and by extension "important", whence "important person" or "elder", and
specifically father, mother, etc; and finally "teacher".
Kind regards
Michel Bostr?m
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 25 October 2006 04:00
To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu
Subject: sanskrit Digest, Vol 42, Issue 13
Send sanskrit mailing list submissions to
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: sanskrit Digest, Vol 42, Issue 12 (Vijayaraghavan Bashyam)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 11:34:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Vijayaraghavan Bashyam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] sanskrit Digest, Vol 42, Issue 12
To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii
>All I can cay is: if you say so, I guess that is what these sounds
>mean. But that does not make them Sanskrit.
I am not sure if this is applicable here since I am more familiar with the
traditional way of vedic learning than with classical sanskrit, Panini etc.
In the traditional vedic learning system (aleast kRRiShNa yajur veda
taittirIya shAkhA) after 'graduating' with the degree of ghanapAThI, the
next stage is to learn veda 'lakShaNa'. The student is taught the meanings
of the various sounds which appear in the veda, the differences between the
same syllable intonated at different relative pitches, grouping of syllables
into varNas and vargas, etc., Until now the student only has been taught the
sounds with analogies of other sounds. During lakShaNa learning, the student
is taught the importance of particular intonations. That is, the focus is on
the 'why' rather than on the 'what' as far as the sounds are concerned.
Etymology is one of the parts of lakShaNa. After mastering lakShaNa, the
student gets the title of 'salakShaNa ghanapAThI'. The next step is to go on
to vedArtha. lakShaNa is an important step towards vedArtha because, the
correct interpretations of the words is possible only with a strong grip on
lakShaNa.
I dont know if the gu-ru example stems from veda lakShaNa but it might be
worth looking into. Perhaps one of Sayana's commentaries has something on
this.
vijayarAghavan bhAShyam
------------------------------
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 10:09:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: jayesh gohel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] Sutra discussion
To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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this is an offshoot from the discussion, but i thought i would recieve an
answer for my question.
what would then samarangnasutradhar -etymologically mean?
(correct me if have not formulated the question well)
i would also heartily thank writers on this list for giving us such wonderful
insights on sanksrit in general, and specifically panini's work.
jayesh
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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 12:04:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] inflecting individual letters
To: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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mishela-Anandmishra-mahodayau krameNa likhataH :
mishela-mahodayaH:
> ... these sounds ... are not found in
> any dictionary and, as far as I know, they have no
> conjugations or declensions, so they cannot be used
> in a Sanskrit sentence.
tataH Ananda-mishramahodayaH:
> Secondly is the question, Can the individual letters
> be inflected? The answer is: yes. Examples (in
> abundance!) is to be found in the 'aSTAdhyAyI' of
> 'pANini' itself.
atra mahodayayoH vachanayoH sa.nGYa-sa.nGYI-sandehaH
sandigdha-prayogaH vA dR^ishyate | ata eva tayoH
prashn-ottara-vAkye paraspara-a-sambaddhe |
(Taken together, the two gentlemen's statements show
either a doubt between the the "name" and the "named",
or show ambiguous usage. Thus, their question and
answer do not pertain to each other.)
tatra sa.nGYA eva prAtipadikatvam prApnoti, tAm eva
anu-yujyate pratyayaH, tad-yogena eva ud-bhavati
padam, padAni eva bhAshhAyAM sAdhuni | sa.nGYI tu
bhAshhAyAM na sAdhuH |
(Only the name gets lexical status, only to it are
terminations added, and from that arise syntax-capable
word-forms. Only these are grammatical in language.
The "named" is not grammatical in language.)
tasy-odAharaNaM |
lAlArasa iti shabdaH sa.nGYA, lAlArasa iti dravam
sa.nGYI |
lAlArasaH iti dravam mukhAt-praxiptam loke arthavat,
ghR^iNAM vA tiraskAro vA prakaTayati | tathApi tan
mukha-rasa-praxepaH bhAshhA-prayoga iti na hi uchyate
| tena artha-pUrNena api mukha-rasa-praxepeNa saha
pratyaya-yoga-prasa.ngaH eva na, kim uta
kAraka-prakriyA |
lAlArasa-iti shabdaH pratyayayuktaH sa.nGYA-tvaM
prAptaH bhAshhAyAm upayoge sAdhuH |
(Here is an example:
The word "spittle" is a name, the liquid "spittle" is
the named.
The liquid called "spittle" can be projected from the
mouth, and is meaningful in society as an expression
of disgust or despising. However, the projection of
this mouth-fluid is not said to be language-use. There
is no word-termination added to this
liquid-projection, there is no question of
coordinating syntax.
The word "spittle", which is a name, after adding
word-terminations, is grammatical for use in
language.)
ata eva pANininA 1.1.68-tame sUtre upadishyate |
1.1.68 svaM rUpaM shabdasya a-shabda-sa.nGYA |
(That is why it is taught by pANini in 1.1.68
1.1.68 Excepting the use of technical names, the form
of a sound itself is the technical name for the
sound.)
atra "shabda" ityasya arthaH uchchArita-mAtram | na tu
prAtipadikam naiva padam | ataH shabdaH sa.nGYI,
vyAkaraNa-shAstre tasya sva-rUpam eva sa.nGYA | atra
pANiniH "svaH shabdaH" iti na upadishhTavAn, api tu
"svaM rUpaM shabdasya" iti | shabdasa.nGYA-shabdayoH
bhedam vadati khalu pANiniH | tatra shabda-sa.nGYAH
prAtipadikAni iti jAnAtu mishela-mahodayaH |
(Here "shabda" means "uttered sound", not a lexical or
inflected word. Here the uttered sound is the "named",
and in the science of grammar, its form indeed is its
"name". Here pANini did not teach "The sound
itself...", but rather taught "The form of the sound
itself..." In fact, pANini is making a distinction
between the sound and its technical name.
Michel-mahodaya may know that the technical names of
the sounds are lexical elements to be found in a
dictionary.)
"DaH si dhuT" iti Adishhu sthAneshhu vyApR^itAH yAH
tAH shabdAnAM sa.nGYAH iti cha spashhTameva |
(In the sUtra "DaH si dhuT" and elsewhere, it is clear
that it is the names of the sounds that are used.)
kechit vadishhyanti | mA maiva bhUt shabdaH arthavAn,
tat-svarUpA sa.nGYA nishchyena arthavatI - tasyAH eva
AdhyAtmiko arthaH vichArayAma | te tam artham
pashyantu nirukte anyatra vA yathA upadishhTavAn
Ananda-mishra-mahodayaH | na tu vyAkaraNe | sA
shabda-rUpa-sa.nGYA tat-shabda-mAtram bodhayati iti
spashhTam eva uktaM pANininA |
(Some will say: Let the sounds themselves not be
meaningful, but surely, theier exact-form names are
meaningful. We ask for the spiritual meaning of those
names. Let them seek those meanings in the nirukta or
other locations as Ananda Mishra mahodaya says. But
not in grammar. pANini has clearly said that the
sound-form-name only stands for the sound itself.)
namraH
dhana.njayaH
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 13:08:37 -0600
From: Sai <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] sanskrit Digest, Vol 42, Issue 13
To: Michel Bostr?m <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: sanskrit@cs.utah.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
namaste Michel,
> verse 5. Regardless of the source, and with the greatest possible respect
> to ancient sages, there can be no etymology of the word "guru" that explains
> its meaning of "teacher", since the primary meaning of the word is "heavy";
> and by extension "important", whence "important person" or "elder", and
> specifically father, mother, etc; and finally "teacher".
I think yours is a hasty and naive conclusion.
How did you conclude that "heavy" is the *primary* meaning of guru
and "dispeller of darkness" is the secondary meaning? What
logic/evidence do you have to back it up?
I heard a sanskrit scholar explaining that certain individual letters do
have meanings that provide meaning to words formed out of them. This
practice exists, and can be studied under vyaakaraNa, a part of the
vedangas.
So, at the most you can say, "I am unable to find the vyaakaraNa rule
for this "gu+ru = guru" mechanism.". Otherwise I can put the same
question mark on your claim that "heavy" is the primary meaning of guru.
I have heard from acknowledged sanskrit scholars about sanskrit words
for which there are multiple meanings that are widely different,
all of which have been used equally frequently in prominent sanskrit
texts by accomplished sanskrit pandits and poets including Kalidaasa.
Sanskrit words get their meaning from dhaatus or root sounds.
To be more precise, each root sound only gives what is called a "sense",
not an absolute meaning set in stone for eternity. That is the sanskrit
language's fundamental nature. This fluidity of the language is
extremely prominent in Vedic sanskrit. That is why it has
confounded so many western scholars when they tried to translate the
Vedas into english, according to Sri Aurobindo.
For instance, the word ashva is normally translated as horse. But the
root sound is 'ash.h' which means swift-moving, which is also the root
for aashu kavitva (extempore poetry). Rudra namakam, which is
part of the yajurveda has mantras that use the same word 'ashva'
to mean light rays, thoughts, horses, arrows at different places.
So will you say that 'horse' is its primary meaning and the rest are
derived? That is arbitrary.
On another note, we should take the answers found by "googling" with a
pinch of salt, because many folks who create webpages write what they
think to be true without any real scholarship to back them up. We
shouldn't take them as gospel.
- Sai.
Michel Bostr?m uvaacha:
> On the "guru" example, I stand my ground. Googling "guru etymology" yielded
> several such purported etymologies on the web, including the one that I had
> heard, where "gu" means darkens and "ru", to dispel, so "guru" means
> dispeller of darkness". The source given is Advayataraka Upanishad 14--18,
> verse 5. Regardless of the source, and with the greatest possible respect
> to ancient sages, there can be no etymology of the word "guru" that explains
> its meaning of "teacher", since the primary meaning of the word is "heavy";
> and by extension "important", whence "important person" or "elder", and
> specifically father, mother, etc; and finally "teacher".
------------------------------
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