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Hello,
If this message sounds rude, please accept my apologies. It's intent is not
to be disrespectful! I speak as a free software hacker and user; a GNU/Linux
user in particular..
[When I refer to "GNU Savannah" I mean GNU Savannah, the Software and the
service it provides to its users.]
Also, though I'm "just a user," I hope that you do not think that I have no
right (or perhaps /Freedom/ would be a better word) to be asking these
questions of yourselves. I feel very strongly about this, which Is why I'm
emailing the savannah-hackers, sv-migration list, savane-dev list, Sylvian
Beucler, James Blair, Vincent Caron, Paul Fisher, Hugo Gayosso, Rudy Gevaert,
Loic Dachary Mathieu Roy, Bradley Kuhn and Richard Stallman.
I have a few points I would like to raise with the /People/ that made GNU and
the current GNU Savannah what they are today, hopefully the user's thereof,
too, and anyone else who wants to listen! :) These points are:
- /Why/ is GNU Savannah moving from the Savannah Software (now Savane) to
GForge?
- Why was this decision made? Who made that decision? Who was involved in
the making of said decision? What were the reasons behind this (IMO bad)
decision?
- Why was there not even /One/ mail note to savannah-hackers or other such
places letting people know that a discussion took place/decision was made
(and the reasons behind said decision) to move to GForge (There may have
been, though, you wouldn't know from looking at the archives!)?
Before I start, please do not reply to me to say something along the lines of
"This is off-topic. Go away!" I've already seen one of those type replies
to a genuine and much-needed question to be answered.
Firstly, this all started, AFAICT, and from a users point of view, in one
message being sent by James to the savannah-hackers list (here in the
archives[1]), where he said:
"We've set up a list to discuss the migration of Savannah to GForge.
"If you're interested, you can subscribe at:
"http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/sv-migration
"The address is <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>."
Searching through the archives I see no other mention of this migration. Not
a single note. Nothing. Zip.
Why has it been decided (I take it it has been decided, otherwise the above
would read
"We've set up a list to discuss the /POSSIBLE migration/ of Savannah to
GForge. . ." (emphasis mine))
to migrate GNU Savannah (service) to GForge? What were the reasons (exact
reasons please) to migrate? Who was involved in this decision, what points
were raised for/against such a migration?
I think the most important question has to be, are the FSF System Staff going
to migrate GNU Savannah (service) to GForge even /if/ a majority, against
this migration, is reached?
Secondly, Why do you (FSF System Staff, I suppose) /want/ to migrate GNU
Savannah (the service) from Savannah (the software; now Savane) to GForge.
What are your exact reasons? Is it that of bugs[4]? or Security related
issues[4]? Or, perhaps, there was a blue moon in the sky, so you thought
it'd be a good idea?
Whatever the reason(s) was/were, was this /even/ discussed with the
savannah-hackers (of the time)? Was it discussed only internally? If the
latter, why so?
<rant>
Freedom, IMNSHO, should not be split in two. To say, freedom applies to all
not just one (as in entity, or in the case the FSF staff in general).
</rant>
/Even/ if, for example, it were RMS that made this decision (the migration), I
would expect at least a discussion with the community, or just the
savannah-hackers at first, about it. I would also like to think that, /if it
were/ RMS' decision, (I think of most people at the FSF/GNU as very together
and clued-up people, I'm just using RMS as an example) that the /whole/ Free
Software community using/hacking/relying/maintaining/... GNU Savannah
would /at least/ be asked of their opinion! "Freedom of Speech," to coin a
phrase.
Finally, I would like to ask why there was not even one mail note sent to
savannah-hackers (The people who used to run GNU Savannah, which I must say,
was ten times better than the current situation we are in now) consulting
with them on this?
- From my point of view, from watching the savannah-hackers list since March
2003, from using/hacking on the software behind GNU Savannah (and now hacking
on Savane), this whole situation from crack to who knows where, has been a
complete shambles (please see the end of my mail before you criticise).
As an outsider, so to speak, it seems as though certain parties were not
consulted/emailed/whatever for a reason. But as someone who is familiar with
the FSF, GNU, and know of the People from the FSF and GNU by name and
reputation, I'm 99% sure this is just a very, very, very unfortunate case of
no time == no communication. Though the other 1% of me is thinking that this
has been a covert operation intentionally.
I would also like to point out this mail note[2] that was sent to the
sv-migration list[3] by Hugo, in reply to James' message[1], where he said:
"Thanks Jim, I have already subscribed, but I have a question.
"After reading the first and only post on this new mailing list, and
after not seeing any discussion on savannah-hackers or anywhere else
regarding the migration. I wonder who and why was the decision made
to migrate to GForge?
"- From that mail in the archives of this new mailing list it seems that
we don't even know if GForge can provide the behaviour that is expected
from the current Savannah.
"People from CERN, XEROX and others have contributed heavily to
savannah (now savane), and they are using it in those institutions
internally, so I guess that "unsupported" was not a reason to migrate.
"I am curious as to why, and I am sure users will be too, what should
we tell the users? I have seen other savannah-hackers ask this same
question but I haven't seen the answer, did I miss it?"
Please note that Hugo Gayosso, who I believe is also the GNU evaluation
co-coordinator, helped greatly fielding the vast amount of /user/ support
requests, in the near six months that there was no Savannah, there was only
very small parts of it re-built/re-installed, or there was still huge
problems (by the way, a lot of these still exist!!) that were being ignored
by the FSF System Staff (or so it would seem).
Now, the problem I have is this: Not only was this message not responded to
with valuable content (hence the length of my note), it was also answered,
very rudely IMHO, by Tim Perdue (for those of you who do not know, Tim Perdue
was one of the original developers behind SourceForge, and is the current
project leader of GForge). His message reads:
"/This is OT for the migration list/" (emphasis mine)
I would think that someone who /actually/ read Hugo's note (see above), who's
intent was not to say "Go away! Get off my migration list!" would think
"Damn. No-one has told you we're migrating? /PEOPLE/, time for a /PROPER/
discussion with /EVERYONE/"
Don't you think? Anyway, this is all /hopefully/ in the past! What I want
from this note, from me to you all, is to make you think! We need Savannah!!
I need Savanah!! 26,559 Users and 2,260 Free Software Projects depend on
Savannah!!
Please, if it will help, pretty please, can we start communicating and get GNU
Savannah back offering the quality of service it was once providing almost 6
months ago?
GNU Savannah got cracked nearly six months ago, please lets not take another
six months to migrate to a new Software (GForge) without even trying to fix
any current problems, when we already have, which if I'm right, was
specifically designed for use by GNU Savannah in the beginning, to a new
Software (which is actually just an upgrade with a new name!) when we do not
even know of a reason to. Even if there is a reason, I'm sure that
whatever's behind that reason can be fixed!
I will personally upgrade the Savannah software (old) on GNU Savannah (by
myself if need be, though I know others will help!) to the latest /stable/
version of Savane. I promise that I will do all that I possibly can do do
this task to the best of my ability, so that we can have, six months on, a
clean/stable/secure GNU Savannah (Savane!!)
On a related side-note, between August and October of last year (2004), I
submitted/sent a mail note(s) to the Bradley (perhaps indirectly via another
address) offering to help the FSF System Staff (I'm a System Administrator
myself) with any GNU Savannah related admin tasks (such as dependant mail
server, running of the then Subversions machine, etc.).
Only one of those was responded to, by Bradley Kuhn, where he said something
along the lines of:
"We could certainly use the help, but there's [insert word here] backlog
that needs to be cleared first. Come back in a couple of months."
That offer still stands. I will offer 5-10 hours per week to work on GNU
Savannah, mail.gnu.org, and anything else that directly impacts the GNU
Savannah (the service).
OK, it was a long ride, but I think that's it. Please reply!
Thank you for your time!
Regards,
Elfyn
[1] <http://mail.gnu.org/archive/html/savannah-hackers/2004-03/msg00336.html>
[2] <http://mail.gnu.org/archive/html/sv-migration/2004-03/msg00001.html>
[3] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[4] Bugs exist in all software. Live with it. Help fix it
[5] Security related bugs &c will exists in all software. That's a fact. We
can only alleviate these issues by working together on the project(s).
Have you ever headerd of "False sense of security." ?
- --
Elfyn McBratney, EMCB
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.emcb.co.uk/
PGP Key ID: 0x456548B4
PGP Key Fingerprint:
29D5 91BB 8748 7CC9 650F 31FE 6888 0C2A 4565 48B4
"Proud to be GNU/Linux Free"
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