MARTIN!!!!! Missed you, guy... Keith Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:There you are! We'd been worried. What happened to your PC? What type to do you have? If I can help, let me know.
-----Original Message----- From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Martin Pratt Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 12:51 To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] FW: Dinosaurs Used to Win Creationism Converts -FOLLOW UP The more things change... Thank you again, Keith, for stating the obvious. Sorry I've been gone so long, but I've been without a computer since July. If I've missed anything, I'll do my best to catch up. Keith Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I'm a Christian who believes in one God, the Creator. I also fancy myself a scientist--and a scifi nut to boot. This means I'm fine learning about evolution and things like C-14 dating that show the Earth is four billion years old...I'm also fine with the Bible as a moral and allegorical guide to living..I'm also okay with the idea of life on other planets...and I don't believe that Christianity is the only way to "salvation". Do I think that a Creator had a hand in the way the Universe is shaped and evolves, as religion says? Yes. Do I think there is trully a thing called "science" that can be used to understand the universe? Yep. Do I think the two are mutually exclusive? No. Given the wonder and mystery of Life itself--that we have self-awareness, that we live in a reality of gravitation, energy fields, and expanding universes, that ANYTHING can exist at all (since I still can't wrap my mind around the concept of existence coming from a nothingness)--it feels natural to me to believe in a Mind behind it, a being that shapes reality according to a grand idea. And seeing that we understand so little about the nature of reality, it doesn't really cause me too much grief to bring God into equations that are already strange and inscrutable--such as the weirdness of the quantuum world, the concept of zero point energy, self-awareness, etc. Whether you believe in a Unified Field Theory--or a god that unifies all fields--you're still entering realms that are mystical and magical to my mind. How do we know that God isn't the force that we perceive as wave/particle duality, that God isn't the stuff of which energy in a vaccum can exist, that superstrings and M-branes aren't the body of God, that Uncertainty isn't just an aspect of God's unknowable Mind? It may not be right, but it's no more wrong than scientific theories that perforce change and evolve over the years. So no, I have no issue with beliefs in a higher being (or beings, if you will) managing the ebb and flow of reality itself. But do I want this taught in the classroom? DEFINITELY NOT! If you want to speak of religious and mystical matters, they should be confined to religion courses. The last thing you need is discussions of gods entering into classes on astronomy, physics, and biology. Aside from fact that Creationists should no more be allowed to dispute science with their theories than a scientist should be asked to go to my church on Sunday and prove God is a lie, the question is *which* belief structure is taught? Do supporters of Intelligent Design believe in only the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, or the one that fathered Christ, or one from Hinduism, or one of the many African belief structures? Which creator is the right creator, and how do you decide? If a kid told his science teacher that he believed in ID, and that the creative force was Brahma, what would the teacher say? Suppose the kid said the creative force in the universe was actually a gestalt mind formed from all the mental energies of all the sentient beings in the multiverse: that is, that WE are actually God? Would that go over well? Would the teacher say "Okay, cool--whatever you think?", or would the kid then be slapped with a bunch of Christian doctrine, or, at best, an irritated admonishment NOT to discuss the particulars of who or what is behind ID, just to accept that something is? Then we have an unsatisfactory and incomplete conversation. If you're going to mention ID, then you must be allowed to discuss the being(s) behind ID, and *then* you're gonna have to decide what diety or force is behind it. In other words, you have to be allowed to go into a religious discussion, and now you've crossed the line. Unless everyone agrees there is a Creator or Creators, the discussion has no place in science. Unless everyone agrees on only one Way to only one God, the discussion has no place in science. Unless we can prove the existence of God, the discussion has no place in science. So let those teachers who feel they must discuss God start teaching religion. Let those parents who can't bear to have their kids taught evolution, send those kids to church on Sunday. I grew up struggling with the sometimes conflicting concepts of science and religion, and reconciling the two didn't destroy me. In the end I see this as another way to dumb down America, to control the world through controlling what people think. And we can't allow that to happen. [Story from Yahoo News follows...] Professor slams intelligent design in Penn. schools By Jon HurdleWed Oct 12, 7:03 PM ET A professor on Wednesday slammed the teaching of intelligent design as a blow to science education as he testified in a lawsuit over whether the theory should be introduced in schools as an alternative to evolution. Teaching intelligent design is "probably the worst thing I have ever heard of in science education," said Brian Alters, who teaches science education at Harvard University and McGill University in Montreal and was called as an expert witness by parents suing the Dover, Pennsylvania, school district. The federal court trial over teaching theories of human origins in U.S. schools pits Christian conservatives, who say nature is so complex it must have been the work of a God-like creator, against teachers and scientists who back Charles Darwin's theory of evolution. The case, seen as a major test of the issue, has echoes of the famed Scopes Monkey trial of 1925 when lawyers squared off in a Tennessee courthouse over the teaching of Darwin's work. In Dover schools, ninth-grade biology students are given a four-paragraph statement suggesting intelligent design as an alternative to evolution and steering them to a book explaining the theory. The district says the policy does not amount to teaching. The 11 parents bringing the federal lawsuit say the policy is religiously based and illegal because it violates the U.S. Constitution's separation of church and state. Alters testified the statement amounted to teaching because it was part of the learning process and that teaching the theory may force students to choose between God and science. "Evolution does not deny the existence of God," he said. "It's not about God. You can play the game of science and still have your religious beliefs." Alters warned that high school students who were taught intelligent design may suffer a loss of credibility in college academics by mixing theology and science. "It engenders misconceptions not only about evolution but also about the whole process of science," he said. Alters cited a recent survey by the 50,000-member National Science Teachers Association showing that 31 percent of its members reported being under pressure to teach creationism or other nonscientific beliefs in science classes. In at least 30 U.S. states, proponents of intelligent design are trying to introduce it into classrooms through school boards, state education standards or state legislation. The trial is in its third week and is expected to last into November. The defense is expected to begin presenting its case on Monday [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] SPONSORED LINKS Science fiction and fantasy Genre magazine --------------------------------- YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "scifinoir2" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- "Excuse me while I whip this out." 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