Wow?!! Tracey you got your thing off...and I usually don't chime in on Sci Fi with the political commentary...I save that for eleswhere...but Tracey your points below are the most even handed and detailed I have ever seen you post...Bravo for the depth of knowledge given and understanding displayed. Actually Bravo you all, and please continue this excellent discussion both sides have made some very interesting points....I will only say that with the recent discovery of Ted Kennedy's illness...it could come down to a win one for the gipper scenario that could be the final nail in the coffin for the GOP...but that is all i am going to add to this very excellent discussion don't want to lower it any more than I have....
Bree or Aubrey to my new friend on the thread Aubrey. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tracey de Morsella Date: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 4:25 pm Subject: RE: [scifinoir2] Re: OT:Top reasons Clinton should not get on dream ticket To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com > I'm sure you know what you are talking about, but you statements > make me > wonder if you are simply buying into Clinton's rhetoric, as they > contradictpublically available FEC reports. They indicate that > more than 50% of his > money is coming from donors who contributed less than $200. > Prior to the > Kitchen sink strategy and Rev Wright, Obama won the majority of > whites and > blue collar workers as well as women in the following states. > CO, MO, AK, > NB,WI, VA, MD, ME, ID, NE, WA, IA, VT, KS and I think three > other states. > WI, ME, IA, ID, KS, are not rich states, nor do they have high Black > populations > > He also won white support in that Black dominated state called WY > > Since Pennsylvania, he has increased his white support to 40+% > in IN > > He is polling with more white and blue collar support than > Clinton in OR, > MT, and SD. He is winning with Asians and Latinos in OR. His > support with > Latino's is going up in CA and NJ so much so he is beating her > in polls in > those states by double digits, despite that fact she won those states. > However, I am not discounting that he is getting very little > white support > in the Appalachian states of KY, or WV. ..Or that he will > likely loose PR > by 30 - 40%. I know that does not support my claims, but facts > are more > important to me than rhetoric or even being right. I see these > discussionsas opportunities to gain knowledge and open myself to > new perspectives more > than winning the argument. > > Perhaps you know more about the demographics of all the states > listed above > then I do, but most of them do not have high numbers of Blacks. > Much of the > money supporting him is coming from those states. SO, it seems > unlikelythat all the whites that say they support and contribute > and volunteer would > be lying and that Blacks are making up most of the 1,500,000+ > donors that > are contributing more than one billion dollars to him. > Source: FEC, Opensecrets.org. > > If you stick to the rhetoric, you will now bring up caucuses and how > undemocratic, unfair to blue collar whites and dumb, they are. > Many of > those states had primaries, three of the states with caucuses > had beauty > contest primaries as well as caucuses - which he won; and he > polled very > high and continues to poll very high in those states with > caucuses so it is > likely that he would have won those states as primaries. > > Since you are not a low-information voter who simply spouts the > rhetoric of > his or her favorite politico, I have to wonder where you are > getting your > facts. Because they do not reflect government data, exit polls > or surveys. > sO, while these numbers do not support your premise, this info > is publically > available by the government, his site and most independent > polling companies > and well as campaign finance tracking sites. There is also much > antidotalevidence to back it up. Since you think it is just > Black people supporting > him - we only make up 12% of the population, do you think that > there is some > kind of media, polling company and government, finance tracking > organizationconspiracy covering up the source of that money? > However, again, since my > purpose is not rhetoric spouting or even "winning" let me state > again,while he is not as beholden to them as Clinton or Mc Cain > to corporate > America, he is beholden to him. What sets him apart is that he > is beholden > to people as well. So, he will be answerable that interest > group (the > people) as well as the big companies and risks seeing that > support his > support dry up. That does not mean that we will not be able to > do what the > Clintons did and sell us out to corporate prison industry, > Enron, Monsanto, > Banking industry, the environment, etc.. will throwing us the > occasionalhigh profile bone. In fact, I anticipate he will. > But if we stop with the > rhetoric and pay attention and get proactive, because we > invested in him and > because he has been providing to also to hold him accountable, > we will have > more leverage to get what we want. When things are on the > public radar, the > corporate back off. I recognize that this is a big if and I > have serious > doubts if people will stop buying the campaign slogans and step > up, but > though his efforts, intentional or not, we might have a change > to change > this stuff. But despite the clintonian mythology marketed, he > is not saying > he will change things, he is saying WE can change things. I > do not think > he is a god as you snidely accuse. I think he may believe his > rhetoric on > some levels and that he is well intentioned and an operator. He > knows how > to use the system. I also believe that Clinton may believe her > rhetoric on > some levels, but I think power has corrupted her. I also think > that power > will corrupted Obama too and has already started. He's just not where > Clinton is yet. > > Ironically, not even Hillary believes that only Blacks support > him as you > seem to. In fact, if you are going to stick to her rhetoric in > arguingagainst Obama, you should note that she thinks latte, > sipping Volvo driving > elites working in education support him too. Last time I looked > there were > not that many Blacks in those numbers. Also he has raised over > a billion > dollars or more with most of it coming from the people. Do you > really think > that is only Black support? > > One more fact that fly's in the face of your rhetoric that only Blacks > support Obama.... Recent polls show him tying or beating her > with White > men, White Women, and Blue Collar workers. The only group she > is still > beating him with nationally is White women over 50. Admitted > this is a > recent development that is likely a result of him laying to rest > some of the > Reverend Wright stuff and that he is perceived to have won. > People tend to > jump on the band wagon of winners. Other polls show that Mc > Cain beats > both Clinton and Obama equally with whites in repeated match ups > and that > his white support is similar to Kerry's white support > > Blacks did not give their support without question as you say, > at least not > most of them. In fact, up until December, he was supported > primarily by the > Whites you say do not support him. Veterans who you say do not > support him, > jumped on the bandwagon before us too. We were the last group > to support > him. It took him over a year to get us on board. That being > said, I > would say that Obama, Clinton and Mc Cain have lots of > supporters from all > backgrounds who do not read, question or investigate and simply > believe what > the candidate tells them or what they get in 10 second sound > bites. That > more reflect flaws in our society as a whole than any one > candidate. Most > politicians take advantage of this flaw. These days, Clinton is > working that > angle more than most, but I think Mc Cain, Obama and many others > do so as > well. They all thrive on it. If people really understood what > was going > on, we would overthrow the government. > > > You ridicule Obama's talk of change. I get that and can relate. > I do not > think Obama can or will make major changes unless forced to as I > said below, > so in this case there is no need to repeat your candidate's > rhetoric. In > fact, he has said as much. Your argument in this instance would > be better > served with a low-information Obama supporter who simply spouts his > rhetoric. As I said below, the tools for change have been put > in place but > I have concerns as to whether people will use them. > > Regarding people at the grassroots rallying together to try to > make those in > power address our needs... You say hippie cult, I say grassroots > activism. > > If Martin Luther King and others could organize millions to > address these > issues in the past, why is it a hippie cult now to want people > to do the > same now? Of course, after years of reading your posts, I would > not be > surprised if you had a great deal of contempt for King and > others like him > and their efforts. > > This need for people to pay attention, stop reciting the > rhetoric of our > favorites politico, get up off our asses and use the tools at > our disposal > to force our government to step up is so beyond the Clinton vs. > Obama. It > is about reversing course and preserving our futures. But since > you seem to > like to talk and discuss things in terms of rhetoric, I will > sign off in > those terms that seem to appeal to you... more rhetoric. > > Peace Baby.... Stick it to the man > > Did I get my line right? Can't move out of my stereotype right? > > Your turn... Don't forget to stick to the script. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 11:21 AM > To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Re: OT:Top reasons Clinton should not > get on dream > ticket > > In a message dated 5/20/2008 9:47:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > He is beholden to corporate America, as they contributed to his > campaign and > will continue to do so. But he is more beholden to the people > and less > beholden to those in power than any other successful politician > in recent > history. However, the key to getting what we want from him is > to use that > power and I fear people do not yet know how to do it. > > > You must be talking about Blacks. Every group has asked What are > you goint > to > do for me? Latinos, Asian, Arabs, coporate America, white women, > white men, > Working class whites, jews,the Military, Nasa etc. Blacks are th > only group > that has given him their support without any question. Please > don't talk > abut how > Clinton threw it away. Please don't tell me he is not running > for president > of black America. When evver Blacks question him, they are > called sellouts > or > are jealous. As long blacck gave Obama 90% of their vote hed can > tell them > to > repsect the verdict and don't riot. As long as black voted > overwhelming > democratic, he does not have to go to Memphis and talk abou MLK. > As along as > blacks > refuse to use their over their political spower as a small > "hiccup" he does > nto > have to worry about appearing "more black". IThe only pwoer > blacks still > have is the race card. Whites are racist. Whites have to talk > about race. > > > > Obama has used our money as well has the big ticket player's > money to build > an infrastructure to bring about true change.. > > What change? Will he change the way politicans do business? No. > He will just > > > > His grassroots network. He > has trained people to change the system, connected disparate > people with > their common interests, showed them how to coalesce their money > and enabled > people to take leadership roles in his campaign so they can flex their > activist muscle. > Seems like politics as usual. I don't see change, I just see a > Jesus Christ > > type figure using disapointed people to get into office. > > > Additionally, his plan involves working to assist down > ticket candidates on the local level. > > > > He also periodically hints that if > he is president, you will have to make him make the changes you > want. Just > last week he launched the grassroots civil rights fellowship and > set up a > massive civil rights voting program that threatens to make the > republicans a > fringe group. > Same democratic/NACCP shell game that most black preachers > having been > pushing every election year. > > > He has laid the groundwork for a nationwide grassroots > takeover of government agenda. > How? He uses the same soundbites that the media has talked about > . > > > He can not overtly tell us what to do with > it or it will be shut down before it is empowered. There is > some sign that > people are using it. > > I hope we figure it out and take advantage of it > > It really sounds like some hippie cult that does not understand the > realities > of life. > > > > > **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new > twists on family > favorites at AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
