Re: DIS: Re: BUS: (With apologies to the Horton) Vote-swap scheme.
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 08:11, Pavitra wrote: > *rereads* > > Right, I'm with you again now. > > Okay, I agree that it's cashable. But there's a catastrophic bug in it > that I think I'd rather exploit than explain. I'd love to exploit it too, except I think the promise is effectively unusable. When the promise is cashed, Arkady sends a message with the text I have supported or objected to an action, I retract my support or objection for an action. I support or object the action as specified by the casher. This support/objection may not be withdrawn. OR I withdraw any votes I have made on a specified proposal, and use all my votes in the manner specified by the casher. These votes may not be withdrawn. The OR makes it hopelessly ambiguous at best. -scshunt
DIS: Re: OFF: [IADoP] Herald Deputisation and Election
On Tue, 9 Aug 2011, Charles Walker wrote: > I deputise on behalf of the Herald to award myself the patent title Champion. > > I initiate an election for the Herald office, nominating Pavitra. For anyone taking over, the only changes I'm aware of since last Herald's Report were walker's award of Champion, and awarding of Coming of Age by proposal 7094 (needs cross-ref with Registrar records). Also, it looks like while I have to be a Player to BECOME a contestmaster, I don't STOP being contestmaster by ceasing to be a player (at least, if I don't specifically resign). Unless there's a counterargument I'm going to try to continue the Delving contest such as it is (may raise some questions on whether I can perform dependent actions defined in contract, etc). -G.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: (With apologies to the Horton) Vote-swap scheme.
On 9 August 2011 16:11, Pavitra wrote: > On 08/09/2011 10:03 AM, Arkady English wrote: >> On 9 August 2011 15:54, Pavitra wrote: >>> On 08/09/2011 09:50 AM, Pavitra wrote: On 08/09/2011 09:35 AM, Arkady English wrote: > I create a number of copies of the following promise equal to one less > the number of First-Class players of Agora: > > Conditions: The casher, on cashing this promise, creates a promise > text: { If I have supported or objected to an action, I retract my > support or objection for an action. I support or object the action as > specified by the casher. This support/objection may not be withdrawn. > OR I withdraw any votes I have made on a specified proposal, and use > all my votes in the manner specified by the casher. These votes may > not be withdrawn. }; I have not already withdrawn my > vote/support/objection due to a promise with identical text. > > Text: I have supported or objected to an action, I retract my support > or objection for an action. I support or object the action as > specified by the casher. This support/objection may not be withdrawn. > OR I withdraw any votes I have made on a specified proposal, and use > all my votes in the manner specified by the casher. These votes may > not be withdrawn. Unfortunately this won't quite work the way you want. The text is missing a leading "if", and more critically, "may not be withdrawn" doesn't work at all. The condition of a promise is a true/false predicate that is evaluated at the time of cashing. It's not in general able to impose ongoing obligations. Similarly, the text of the promise is simply treated as though the promise's author had sent that text in a public message. It can only trigger by-announcement actions, and only at the time it's cashed. For a model of how to accomplish the sort of thing you're trying to get at, I recommend you look at "Vote Issue Series G1" and "G1 vote guarantee." (Note that these two promises go together; they are collectively one complete example of how to do it.) >>> >>> Actually, on a closer reading, I believe that none of these CAN ever be >>> cashed. In the absence of capitals, I read "may not" to mean "SHALL >>> NOT", and since support, objections, and votes always MAY be withdrawn >>> (though not always CAN), the conditions will always evaluate to false. >>> >> >> None of the conditions include the words "may not", so I think the >> conditions are probably alright? Also, how easy is it to correct the >> typo of the missing "If"? > > *rereads* > > Right, I'm with you again now. > > Okay, I agree that it's cashable. But there's a catastrophic bug in it > that I think I'd rather exploit than explain. > I think this sums up my comments: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lytZ7fYOlgU (5 second video)
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: (With apologies to the Horton) Vote-swap scheme.
On 08/09/2011 10:03 AM, Arkady English wrote: > Also, how easy is it to correct the > typo of the missing "If"? Right, forgot to answer this. There's no mechanism for amending promises. You'd have to issue a new set of promises, and maybe try to get the old ones destroyed.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: (With apologies to the Horton) Vote-swap scheme.
On 08/09/2011 10:03 AM, Arkady English wrote: > On 9 August 2011 15:54, Pavitra wrote: >> On 08/09/2011 09:50 AM, Pavitra wrote: >>> On 08/09/2011 09:35 AM, Arkady English wrote: I create a number of copies of the following promise equal to one less the number of First-Class players of Agora: Conditions: The casher, on cashing this promise, creates a promise text: { If I have supported or objected to an action, I retract my support or objection for an action. I support or object the action as specified by the casher. This support/objection may not be withdrawn. OR I withdraw any votes I have made on a specified proposal, and use all my votes in the manner specified by the casher. These votes may not be withdrawn. }; I have not already withdrawn my vote/support/objection due to a promise with identical text. Text: I have supported or objected to an action, I retract my support or objection for an action. I support or object the action as specified by the casher. This support/objection may not be withdrawn. OR I withdraw any votes I have made on a specified proposal, and use all my votes in the manner specified by the casher. These votes may not be withdrawn. >>> >>> Unfortunately this won't quite work the way you want. The text is >>> missing a leading "if", and more critically, "may not be withdrawn" >>> doesn't work at all. >>> >>> The condition of a promise is a true/false predicate that is evaluated >>> at the time of cashing. It's not in general able to impose ongoing >>> obligations. Similarly, the text of the promise is simply treated as >>> though the promise's author had sent that text in a public message. It >>> can only trigger by-announcement actions, and only at the time it's cashed. >>> >>> For a model of how to accomplish the sort of thing you're trying to get >>> at, I recommend you look at "Vote Issue Series G1" and "G1 vote >>> guarantee." (Note that these two promises go together; they are >>> collectively one complete example of how to do it.) >> >> Actually, on a closer reading, I believe that none of these CAN ever be >> cashed. In the absence of capitals, I read "may not" to mean "SHALL >> NOT", and since support, objections, and votes always MAY be withdrawn >> (though not always CAN), the conditions will always evaluate to false. >> > > None of the conditions include the words "may not", so I think the > conditions are probably alright? Also, how easy is it to correct the > typo of the missing "If"? *rereads* Right, I'm with you again now. Okay, I agree that it's cashable. But there's a catastrophic bug in it that I think I'd rather exploit than explain.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: (With apologies to the Horton) Vote-swap scheme.
On 9 August 2011 15:54, Pavitra wrote: > On 08/09/2011 09:50 AM, Pavitra wrote: >> On 08/09/2011 09:35 AM, Arkady English wrote: >>> I create a number of copies of the following promise equal to one less >>> the number of First-Class players of Agora: >>> >>> Conditions: The casher, on cashing this promise, creates a promise >>> text: { If I have supported or objected to an action, I retract my >>> support or objection for an action. I support or object the action as >>> specified by the casher. This support/objection may not be withdrawn. >>> OR I withdraw any votes I have made on a specified proposal, and use >>> all my votes in the manner specified by the casher. These votes may >>> not be withdrawn. }; I have not already withdrawn my >>> vote/support/objection due to a promise with identical text. >>> >>> Text: I have supported or objected to an action, I retract my support >>> or objection for an action. I support or object the action as >>> specified by the casher. This support/objection may not be withdrawn. >>> OR I withdraw any votes I have made on a specified proposal, and use >>> all my votes in the manner specified by the casher. These votes may >>> not be withdrawn. >> >> Unfortunately this won't quite work the way you want. The text is >> missing a leading "if", and more critically, "may not be withdrawn" >> doesn't work at all. >> >> The condition of a promise is a true/false predicate that is evaluated >> at the time of cashing. It's not in general able to impose ongoing >> obligations. Similarly, the text of the promise is simply treated as >> though the promise's author had sent that text in a public message. It >> can only trigger by-announcement actions, and only at the time it's cashed. >> >> For a model of how to accomplish the sort of thing you're trying to get >> at, I recommend you look at "Vote Issue Series G1" and "G1 vote >> guarantee." (Note that these two promises go together; they are >> collectively one complete example of how to do it.) > > Actually, on a closer reading, I believe that none of these CAN ever be > cashed. In the absence of capitals, I read "may not" to mean "SHALL > NOT", and since support, objections, and votes always MAY be withdrawn > (though not always CAN), the conditions will always evaluate to false. > None of the conditions include the words "may not", so I think the conditions are probably alright? Also, how easy is it to correct the typo of the missing "If"?
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: (With apologies to the Horton) Vote-swap scheme.
On 9 August 2011 15:50, Pavitra wrote: > On 08/09/2011 09:35 AM, Arkady English wrote: >> I create a number of copies of the following promise equal to one less >> the number of First-Class players of Agora: >> >> Conditions: The casher, on cashing this promise, creates a promise >> text: { If I have supported or objected to an action, I retract my >> support or objection for an action. I support or object the action as >> specified by the casher. This support/objection may not be withdrawn. >> OR I withdraw any votes I have made on a specified proposal, and use >> all my votes in the manner specified by the casher. These votes may >> not be withdrawn. }; I have not already withdrawn my >> vote/support/objection due to a promise with identical text. >> >> Text: I have supported or objected to an action, I retract my support >> or objection for an action. I support or object the action as >> specified by the casher. This support/objection may not be withdrawn. >> OR I withdraw any votes I have made on a specified proposal, and use >> all my votes in the manner specified by the casher. These votes may >> not be withdrawn. > > Unfortunately this won't quite work the way you want. The text is > missing a leading "if", and more critically, "may not be withdrawn" > doesn't work at all. > > The condition of a promise is a true/false predicate that is evaluated > at the time of cashing. It's not in general able to impose ongoing > obligations. Similarly, the text of the promise is simply treated as > though the promise's author had sent that text in a public message. It > can only trigger by-announcement actions, and only at the time it's cashed. > > For a model of how to accomplish the sort of thing you're trying to get > at, I recommend you look at "Vote Issue Series G1" and "G1 vote > guarantee." (Note that these two promises go together; they are > collectively one complete example of how to do it.) > Darn ... I'm not used to the way highlighting works in IE (it always seems to skip the first word...I've done this a lot). I guess the promises just about work if they're timed correctly (i.e. right at the end of the voting period).
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: (With apologies to the Horton) Vote-swap scheme.
On 08/09/2011 09:50 AM, Pavitra wrote: > On 08/09/2011 09:35 AM, Arkady English wrote: >> I create a number of copies of the following promise equal to one less >> the number of First-Class players of Agora: >> >> Conditions: The casher, on cashing this promise, creates a promise >> text: { If I have supported or objected to an action, I retract my >> support or objection for an action. I support or object the action as >> specified by the casher. This support/objection may not be withdrawn. >> OR I withdraw any votes I have made on a specified proposal, and use >> all my votes in the manner specified by the casher. These votes may >> not be withdrawn. }; I have not already withdrawn my >> vote/support/objection due to a promise with identical text. >> >> Text: I have supported or objected to an action, I retract my support >> or objection for an action. I support or object the action as >> specified by the casher. This support/objection may not be withdrawn. >> OR I withdraw any votes I have made on a specified proposal, and use >> all my votes in the manner specified by the casher. These votes may >> not be withdrawn. > > Unfortunately this won't quite work the way you want. The text is > missing a leading "if", and more critically, "may not be withdrawn" > doesn't work at all. > > The condition of a promise is a true/false predicate that is evaluated > at the time of cashing. It's not in general able to impose ongoing > obligations. Similarly, the text of the promise is simply treated as > though the promise's author had sent that text in a public message. It > can only trigger by-announcement actions, and only at the time it's cashed. > > For a model of how to accomplish the sort of thing you're trying to get > at, I recommend you look at "Vote Issue Series G1" and "G1 vote > guarantee." (Note that these two promises go together; they are > collectively one complete example of how to do it.) Actually, on a closer reading, I believe that none of these CAN ever be cashed. In the absence of capitals, I read "may not" to mean "SHALL NOT", and since support, objections, and votes always MAY be withdrawn (though not always CAN), the conditions will always evaluate to false.
DIS: Re: BUS: (With apologies to the Horton) Vote-swap scheme.
On 08/09/2011 09:35 AM, Arkady English wrote: > I create a number of copies of the following promise equal to one less > the number of First-Class players of Agora: > > Conditions: The casher, on cashing this promise, creates a promise > text: { If I have supported or objected to an action, I retract my > support or objection for an action. I support or object the action as > specified by the casher. This support/objection may not be withdrawn. > OR I withdraw any votes I have made on a specified proposal, and use > all my votes in the manner specified by the casher. These votes may > not be withdrawn. }; I have not already withdrawn my > vote/support/objection due to a promise with identical text. > > Text: I have supported or objected to an action, I retract my support > or objection for an action. I support or object the action as > specified by the casher. This support/objection may not be withdrawn. > OR I withdraw any votes I have made on a specified proposal, and use > all my votes in the manner specified by the casher. These votes may > not be withdrawn. Unfortunately this won't quite work the way you want. The text is missing a leading "if", and more critically, "may not be withdrawn" doesn't work at all. The condition of a promise is a true/false predicate that is evaluated at the time of cashing. It's not in general able to impose ongoing obligations. Similarly, the text of the promise is simply treated as though the promise's author had sent that text in a public message. It can only trigger by-announcement actions, and only at the time it's cashed. For a model of how to accomplish the sort of thing you're trying to get at, I recommend you look at "Vote Issue Series G1" and "G1 vote guarantee." (Note that these two promises go together; they are collectively one complete example of how to do it.)
Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [CotC] CFJ 3085 assigned to Murphy
On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 5:28 PM, Arkady English wrote: > Does Agora have any jurisdiction over a laptop repair shop? Define "jurisdiction". Can we impose any penalty that they're likely to take seriously? Probably not. Can we impose penalties that *we* pretend to take seriously? Sure!
DIS: testing
i'm testing my email client's configuration to make sure it is compatible with agora. -- Benu Phoenix
Re: DIS: any winning or contests?
On 08/09/2011 03:41 AM, Charles Walker wrote: > On 9 August 2011 03:51, Kerim Aydin wrote: >> Am I right when I say no one has actually won the game recently, >> not even Walker? Or did I miss a successful victory case or two? >> Or is the dumb system completely broken. > > My victory was confirmed on the 19th July, two weeks after the > judgement of GLORY on CFJ 3048, but I was never awarded Champion. I think that you were awarded Champion when the Promise (2011-07-13 G. 1) was cashed, on 26 July.
Re: DIS: by the way
On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 23:52, Benu Phoenix wrote: > On Mon, 8 Aug 2011, Sean Hunt wrote: >> Fast. Your intent was unambiguously successful. > > What does that mean? I'm sorta new, and don't understand. > > PS: Sorry for the garbled previous post. > > -- Benu Phoenix Fast refers to the Speed, as Pavitra asked what it was. -scshunt
Re: DIS: any winning or contests?
On 9 August 2011 03:51, Kerim Aydin wrote: > Am I right when I say no one has actually won the game recently, > not even Walker? Or did I miss a successful victory case or two? > Or is the dumb system completely broken. My victory was confirmed on the 19th July, two weeks after the judgement of GLORY on CFJ 3048, but I was never awarded Champion. -- Charles Walker