Re: spammers on this list

[John G Heim]

I don't know, it seems pretty clear to me that there is a bot on this 
list automatically responding to messages posted to the list. Like I 
said, the hard part might be figuring which email address it is. But it 
might be as easy as banning amy.kristen7...@josona.bid. We have no way 
of knowing whether it would be that easy since you can't get a 
subscriber list unless you are the list owner.


Well, there certainly has not been a groundswell of support for me to 
create an alternate list on iavit.org. I suppose I could just create the 
list and see what happens. I think part of my problem with this spam is 
that as a matter of principle, I think the owner of a list should take 
his responsibility more seriously. That kind of thing probably bothers 
me more than it should. I am one of those guys who pays all the taxes he 
owes even if he knows he could get away with paying less. I am getting 
more and more irritated with Red Hat every day.


On 04/15/2017 08:33 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> In fact it is hard to paint just what they are doing.
> I posted in this thread once.
> However, and keeping the same subject line, I get an e-mail from this
> person with each post it seems... in this thread I mean.
> Kare
>
>
> On Sat, 15 Apr 2017, John G. Heim wrote:
>
>> But this particular spammer isn't harvesting email addresses from the
>> archive.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 04/14/2017 10:31 PM, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:
>>>  Considering that the list archives can be viewed by anyone at
>>>  https://www.redhat.com/archives/blinux-list/
>>>  and be downloaded as gzipped plain text files that include the e-mail
>>>  address from which each message was sent, I think it's fair to say
>>>  there's next to nothing any list moderators could do to address spam,
>>>  and unless an alternative list either lacks public archives or has
>>>  archives that strip e-mail addresses from the from fields, it will be
>>>  just as vulnerable to spambots.
>>>
>>
>> ___
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>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>>
>>

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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[John G Heim]

Just fedora? Not vidora or something like that? Hey, if you guys end up 
calling your distro vidora, I want credit. :-)


I look at the debate over whether it is better to have a distro for the 
blind or to work on improving mainstream distros like the debate over 
barley versus wheat beers. Personally, I prefer barley beers over any 
and all wheat beers. But if someone wants to brew a wheat beer, it's 
fine with me and I'd even help out if they asked. It's a matter of good 
and better. In other words, my opinion is that even if you think it 
would be better if these developers spent their time on mainstream 
distros, we should all still recognize that what they are doing is 
really helpful.  Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.


On 04/18/2017 08:45 AM, Jude dDaShiell wrote:

Last i read, both sonargnulinux and vinux were in the process of merging
into Fedora and that first release was supposed to have happened
sometime in April 2017 and would be called Fedora 26.0.  What has
happened since then I do not now know.

Sent from BlueMail  for iPhone

On Apr 18, 2017 at 6:32 AM, Tony Baechler mailto:t...@baechler.net>> wrote:
Sorry for the late reply, but see comments below.

On 3/16/2017 3:36 PM, Joel Roth wrote:

Eric Oyen wrote:


...we, as a community, don't have an actual unified distro
to call our own. Sure, Vinux is a decent distro, but it's
lacking a lot of useful features outside of accessibility.


OK, but why do we, as a community, need a special distro? Yes, it's free
software, so there is certainly nothing stopping you as long as you realize
it's your pet distro along with the about 300 others on distrowatch.com
. I
would much rather have a popular, mainstream distro which includes great
accessibility like Debian and derivatives.



I'm not sure how things are at present, but in the past,
Debian has shown some commitment to supporting
accessibility[1], including at the installer level[2].


Yes, Debian still supports accessibility. Every alpha release of D-I has
accessibility features and fixes.



This is not the same as a special-purpose distribution, and
I think the pages were written some time ago. Still I would
think that some effort would be worthwhile, and would
benefit all Debian derivatives, which could include
a accessbility-centric distribution.

1. https://wiki.debian.org/accessibility
2. https://wiki.debian.org/accessibility#Debian_installer_accessibility


These pages should be fairly current and are often updated by Debian
developers like Samuel Thibault.

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Re: spammers on this list

[John G. Heim]

But this particular spammer isn't harvesting email addresses from the 
archive.




On 04/14/2017 10:31 PM, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:

Considering that the list archives can be viewed by anyone at
https://www.redhat.com/archives/blinux-list/
and be downloaded as gzipped plain text files that include the e-mail
address from which each message was sent, I think it's fair to say
there's next to nothing any list moderators could do to address spam,
and unless an alternative list either lacks public archives or has
archives that strip e-mail addresses from the from fields, it will be
just as vulnerable to spambots.



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Re: spammers on this list

[John G. Heim]

Well, I sent a message to blinux-list-ow...@redhat.com and didn't get a 
bounce. The message went somewhere.




On 04/14/2017 09:27 PM, John G. Heim wrote:
Nothing about how the list operates would have to change. We could 
change some things if we wanted to. But IAVIT uses the same listserv 
software as Red Hat does, mailman. I think the biggest problem with 
moving this list is that we can't really move it, not without the help 
of the list owner.  And if we had the cooperation of the list owner, 
we might not have to move it.


It occurs to me that someone should email the list owner. On a 
properly configured list, amil to -owner should work. I will 
try that and get back to the list with results.


On 04/14/2017 08:17 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:
All of my list communications come directly to my inbox. By which I 
mean I do  not visit a third party site for reading messages or posting.
If you decide to move this list, will this impact how I prefer 
reading messages?

Thanks,
Kare


On Sat, 15 Apr 2017, Luke Yelavich wrote:


On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 03:52:54AM AEST, John G Heim wrote:
If anyone else is tired of getting these messages from spammers 
every time
you post to this list, I suggest we take it to t...@iavit.org.  I 
am the

moderator of that list and I wouldn't tolerate this. If you want me to
create a list especially for linux, I can do that too.


Another alternative is the GNU accessibility List,
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility.

Luke

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Re: spammers on this list

[John G. Heim]

Nothing about how the list operates would have to change. We could 
change some things if we wanted to. But IAVIT uses the same listserv 
software as Red Hat does, mailman. I think the biggest problem with 
moving this list is that we can't really move it, not without the help 
of the list owner.  And if we had the cooperation of the list owner, we 
might not have to move it.


It occurs to me that someone should email the list owner. On a properly 
configured list, amil to -owner should work. I will try that 
and get back to the list with results.


On 04/14/2017 08:17 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:
All of my list communications come directly to my inbox. By which I 
mean I do  not visit a third party site for reading messages or posting.
If you decide to move this list, will this impact how I prefer reading 
messages?

Thanks,
Kare


On Sat, 15 Apr 2017, Luke Yelavich wrote:


On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 03:52:54AM AEST, John G Heim wrote:
If anyone else is tired of getting these messages from spammers 
every time
you post to this list, I suggest we take it to t...@iavit.org.  I am 
the

moderator of that list and I wouldn't tolerate this. If you want me to
create a list especially for linux, I can do that too.


Another alternative is the GNU accessibility List,
https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility.

Luke

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spammers on this list

[John G. Heim]

I sent the command to the listserve to get a list of the subscribers.  
As you can see from the response below, it said you have to be an 
administrator to get that. That is not unusual. Some lists allow the 
subscribers to get a list of the other subscribers but this one does not.



 Forwarded Message 
Subject:The results of your email commands
Date:   Fri, 14 Apr 2017 22:15:24 -0400
From:   blinux-list-boun...@redhat.com
To: jh...@math.wisc.edu



The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your
original message.

- Results:
Usage:

who password

See everyone who is on this mailing list.  The roster is limited to
list administrators and moderators only; you must supply the list
admin or moderator password to retrieve the roster.


- Unprocessed:
who

- Done.


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Re: spammers on this list

[John G. Heim]

But, Henry, of course the spammer is replying directly back to the 
person who posted the message rather than back to the list. Spammers 
always work that way.  I also don't see what difference it makes whether 
the bot (it clearly is a bot) was set up deliberately or if it is the 
result of someone being hacked. A bot is a bot. My problem is that there 
doesn't appear to be anyone at Red Hat monitoring this list.  Hello, Red 
Hat. Are you there?


It might be difficult to match the email address on the list to the 
spammer. The spam messages don't have to come from the same address as 
the one subscribe to this list. But I'm not sure what you hope to do if 
you get a look at the message headers. You can't unsubscribe anyone, can 
you?


I would think if there was a moderator on this list, he or she would 
have  have said something by now.






On 04/14/2017 08:06 PM, Henry Yen wrote:

I guess what I'm driving at is the question of whether this/these spammer(s)
are spamming you (evidently, there's more than one of "you") directly, or
via the list. Only in the latter case could something reasonably be done
about it (by attempting to unsubscribe them). If the former, then the
spamming could simply follow you to the new list. A more miserable possibility
is that one of the legitimate users on the list has his/her computer
compromised, and it's from there that the (presumably unwitting) spam
originates.

In any case, if we look at the SMTP email headers, especially from
two or more different spam recipients, we might see something obvious.

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 04:22:25AM -0700, Chime Hart wrote:

Well Henry, for at least 1 or 2 months, each time I write or reply, I
receive at least 1 spam item. I would say if there are no moderators of the
list, then announcing a replacement, well, you would think those same
anoying folks would just harvest the new address.
And Henry, since it  probably won't take long for this woman to reply, I
can send with headers.

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Re: Setting up a headless Debian box

[John G Heim]

Henry is right. It's been so many years since I've come across a BIOS 
configured that way that I forgot it could be a problem.   So it's 
possible that your machine might not boot without a keyboard but it's 
pretty unlikely.




On 04/14/2017 01:11 PM, Henry Yen wrote:

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 12:15:38PM -0500, John J. Boyer wrote:

What I'm concerned about is whether the box will boot without a
keyboard. If I shut it down and later press the power button will it
boot?


Whether or not a box will boot without a keyboard is a function of the
firmware/bios of the box. Typically there's a bios/setup selection option
called "Halt On Error?", with choices of "All" or "All except keyboard".
The former will prevent the box from booting if no keyboard is detected
while the latter will not.

Linux does not care.

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Re: Setting up a headless Debian box

[John G Heim]

You do not need a keyboard to boot a linux machine. By now I've booted 
machines thousands of times without a keyboard.

On 04/14/2017 12:15 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:

What I'm concerned about is whether the box will boot without a keyboard. If I 
shut it down and later press the power
button will it boot? I want to be able to shut it down and restart when i want 
to make a backup.

Thanks,
John

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 11:57:57AM -0500, John G Heim wrote:

Are you asking if you can disconnect the keyboard and monitor after you've
finished the install? If so, absolutely. This is a fairly common thing in
the server world.  Just yesterday I did a debian install with just a
keyboard and braille display attached. Worked great.

There are several ways to do an install without ever attaching a keyboard.
They are non-trivial though. I'll explain how I do it if that's what you
want to know.

On 04/14/2017 08:31 AM, John J. Boyer wrote:

I have an oldder machine that I want to use mainly for backup. It will be 
accessed by ssh, rsync, etc. So it doesn't
need a monitor  or keyboard. How do i set this up?

Thanks,
John



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Re: Setting up a headless Debian box

[John G Heim]

Are you asking if you can disconnect the keyboard and monitor after 
you've finished the install? If so, absolutely. This is a fairly common 
thing in the server world.  Just yesterday I did a debian install with 
just a keyboard and braille display attached. Worked great.


There are several ways to do an install without ever attaching a 
keyboard. They are non-trivial though. I'll explain how I do it if 
that's what you want to know.


On 04/14/2017 08:31 AM, John J. Boyer wrote:

I have an oldder machine that I want to use mainly for backup. It will be 
accessed by ssh, rsync, etc. So it doesn't
need a monitor  or keyboard. How do i set this up?

Thanks,
John



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Re: Off Topic: list for blind people doing devops/sys admin including windows

[John G Heim]

I'd like to promote the list at t...@iavit.org. That is the 
International Association Of Visually Impaired Technologists. I'll dmit 
the traffic is really light.  To subscribe, send a message to 
talk-subscr...@iavit.org.


There is a more active list at blind-sysadm...@lists.hodgsonfamily.org. 
I believe the Hodgson family is that of someone on the list. Beyond 
that, I don't know who sponsors that list.


And finally, there is the CS list of the NFB, nf...@nfbnet.org. That 
list is much as it sounds, more of a CS list than an IT professionals 
list. But there are a lot of sys admin and programming questions as well.



On 03/29/2017 11:55 AM, Tom Masterson wrote:
> I would like to talk to some folks about devops type work involving both
> linux and windows and cloud type stuff.  I have some training but
> haven't ever touched windows in that respect and would like to know how
> accessible it is etc.
>
> thanks
> Tom
>
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wiki.iavit.org back up

[John G. Heim]

Hi Everybody,


The wiki is back up at wiki.iavit.org. That is the International 
Association of Visually Impaired Technologists. It went down because the 
mediawiki package was removed from ubuntu server and an upgrade removed 
the old package.


If you have any info of general interest to blind or visually impaired 
technologists, please consider registering as a user at www.iavit.org 
and creating a page on our wiki. You will have to request an account and 
have it approved before you cant create and edit pages. Sorry but 
spammers are just so much trouble we had to do it.




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Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[John G Heim]

It's funny you should say it's long overdue for there to be a blindness 
related non-profit. I was part of a group who created exactly that 
several years ago. After much discussion, we called ourselves The 
International Association Of Visually Impaired Technologists or IAVIT. 
See www.iavit.org.


After creating the non-profit, the real problem has been lack of 
interest in using it's resources. We are incorporated as a 501c3 in the 
USA so we can legally accept donations. We have a lawyer, a bank 
account, a paypal account at the non-profit rates, donated server space, 
etc. The entire infrastructure is there. We're just waiting for people 
to say, "Hey, I could use this or that."


On 03/16/2017 07:53 AM, Tony Baechler wrote:

Be warned that my comments are most likely unpopular and controversial.
See below. I'm not really interested in discussing this further, so
don't expect a response.

On 3/15/2017 3:30 AM, Kyle wrote:

Sonar merges with the Vinux Project.



Well, this is indeed unfortunate. First, it was never said what "common
goals" were discussed. Granted I don't closely follow either project,
but I'm disappointed and surprised to see Vinux heading towards a Fedora
base. Red Hat has stated many, even numerous times, both in their
inaction and in published docs on their sites, that they have no or very
little interest in core accessibility. Yes, I realize this list is
hosted by Red Hat, but honestly, anyone can host a mailing list
nowadays, so to me, that doesn't count. Look at groups.io, Yahoo Groups,
etc. Unlike Debian, Ubuntu and Slackware, to the best of my knowledge,
Fedora has never made their installer accessible out of the box. I
understand that now their installer talks with Orca, but I think that's
more by accident than anything. Fedora does claim to have accessibility
with the Gnome desktop though, but I don't think one can easily use
Speakup and a text console to do the install. I could very well be wrong
on this as I quit following Fedora years ago for the above reasons.
There were projects like Speakup Modified (now dead I think), but they
were community projects with no support from Fedora developers.
Presumably, since Sonar is being folded in, they will use a distro other
than Fedora. In the long term, I think Fedora would be a very bad idea
for many reasons which I won't go into here.

I think it's a great idea for there to be an a11y, or even
blindness-specific nonprofit to be formed. I would even say it's very
long overdue. If Apache, Mozilla, the Linux kernel and many others can
do it, there is no reason why the blind community can't. I would even
suggest moving this and other Linux lists to that organization. Yes, I
realize that nonprofit and not-for-profit are different. I would push to
make it a U.S based nonprofit. Start a Kickstarter or other fundraising
compaign. I would donate to it. As much as Facebook doesn't support
accessibility and generally is against the open source spirit, a page on
there, Twitter, Tumblr, etc would be a very good idea. There needs to be
a strong publicity team to write articles for both the blindness
magazines (ACB Braille Forum, etc) and the mainstream Linux magazines
like LWN. Amazingly, there has been almost no mention of Speakup in the
mainstream Linux community at all. I think a fair number of companies
and developers don't take us seriously because they don't know we exist
and that blind people not only can and do use computers but in fact can
and do use Linux on a regular basis. I just got an email from someone
asking if I'm blind, how do I read and write? There is still a huge
amount of ignorance out there. I realize this isn't strictly a Linux
accessibility issue, but what leads to the next great breakthrough might
be started by a developer seeing that blind people want an accessible
desktop like everyone else. With an actual organization, KDE could be
pushed for accessibility and developers from the organization could
help. In other words, not only does it need to be a nonprofit a11y
organization who works with other developers and develops software, but
it also needs to be an advocacy and lobbyist group to demand big and
small companies make their software accessible.

However, I see a huge flaw in the merger. I think we're going down the
same path as Windows screen readers. I'm not saying that Vinux would go
commercial. What I'm saying is I fear they would end up like a big
company who shall remain nameless. There are other screen readers out
there such as NVDA, but very few people take them seriously because this
big company has almost a monopoly. Granted, Linux is still far from
having a huge share of the market, but if it should reach the 90% or
even 50% point some day, it would be very unfortunate for rehab agencies
and employers to force people to use Vinux because that's the only
specialized distro for the blind. What would be much better is to work
with the mainstream distros like Debian and Ubuntu to fix accessibility
prob

Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

[John G Heim]

I would like to offer the services of the International Association Of 
Visually Impaired Technologists  for this project. IAVIT already is a 
501C3 non-profit in the United States.  I am sure the Board Of Directors 
of IAVIT would be thrilled to make whatever resources we have available 
to the sonar/vinux project. If you guys have infrastructure needs, see us.






On 03/15/2017 06:30 AM, Kyle wrote:

Sonar merges with the Vinux Project.
http://www.sonargnulinux.com and http://www.vinuxproject.org team up.

Exciting news for the Sonar and Vinux communities.
A special meeting was held early 2017 between core Sonar and Vinux team
members. It was agreed that the two projects will be working together
toward common goals. Whilst Vinux has recently indicated to move the
distro base from Ubuntu to Fedora, several meetings have been held
between Vinux and Sonar core members with an agreement taking place
toward common goals that will freshen up both projects. Some teams have
been expanded, and new teams have been created within Vinux, with the
influx of Sonar developers and users. Project leader Rob Whyte said that
the merge will minimize fragmentation and combine resources. Most
importantly, having a larger active community will allow us to develop
some visions we have had for some time.

Going forward in 2017, Vinux hopes to become a not for profit
organization and to step up what we can deliver to our loyal user base.
Under the new arrangements, Vinux has agreed to stem into the ARM
architecture, offering exciting new possibilities, and has also
committed to again provide Vinux hardware, focusing primarily on ARM
devices.

Though mainstream distro accessibility is paramount, we believe after
much consultation that a specialised distro is still required.
Together with Linux-a11y, most commonly known for the active development
of the Fenrir screen reader and the OCRPDF and OCRDesktop text
recognition tools, Vinux has agreed to continuously push for and
contribute to accessibility inclusion within main line distributions.

Vinux plans to produce images based mainly upon the Mate desktop
environment, but also Gnome; and builds for Arm devices, including the
Raspberry Pi, Odroid XU3, XU4 and C2 and hopefully others, depending on
the availability of hardware.

We at Vinux are excited for this new chapter we are embracing.
~Kyle
Vinux PR/Social Media Team Lead

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Re: Can I add speakup to An Existing Wheezy Installation?

[John G Heim]

Yeah, I don't know about that error message. I would try rebooting. You 
probably want to make the speakup_soft module load automatically each 
time you reboot. To do that, type:


echo speakup_soft >> /etc/modules

You need to do that as root.  If you don't get speech when you reboot, 
try running espeakup by hand.





On 12/05/2016 11:32 AM, Martin McCormick wrote:

Thank you. I am glad I asked because there is much less
to the procedure than I was expecting.

The modprobe command worked fine as far as that there were no
errors reported. The apt-get install worked until the script
tried to start speakup and then the following happened: Output follows.

86audio3 martin ~ $sudo apt-get install espeakup
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  espeakup
0 upgraded, 1 newly installed, 0 to remove and 6 not upgraded.
Need to get 24.9 kB of archives.
After this operation, 90.1 kB of additional disk space will be used.
Get:1 http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ wheezy/main espeakup i386 1:0.71-13 [24.9
 kB]
Fetched 24.9 kB in 0s (71.7 kB/s)
Selecting previously unselected package espeakup.
(Reading database ... 124379 files and directories currently installed.)
Unpacking espeakup (from .../espeakup_1%3a0.71-13_i386.deb) ...
Processing triggers for man-db ...
Setting up espeakup (1:0.71-13) ...
[FAIL] Starting Speakup/espeak connector : espeakup failed!
invoke-rc.d: initscript espeakup, action "start" failed.
dpkg: error processing espeakup (--configure):
 subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 1
Errors were encountered while processing:
 espeakup
E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)

What I do know is that this system is a Dell Optiplex
from probably around 2000 or so and the on-board sound card is a
built-in cs4236 which works well with aplay, amixer and alsa in
general but has never been too eager to work with let's say,
ubuntu live CD's and other bootable CD's that talk on most
systems. This device shows up as card 0 and aplay -l and arecord
-l both produce good results so I may need to do some more
experimentation to see what else is wrong.

Again, thanks.

Martin McCormick

John G Heim  writes:

If you are using a stock debian kernel, you don't have to add speakup. You
just have to load it. I am guessing though that you are asking how to load
speakup, right? Well, that depends on which speech synth you are using. I
am going to guess you want to use software speech, right? In that case,
you
will have to add the espeak package. Here are the steps:


1. Type "modprobe speakup_soft"
2. Type "apt-get install espeakup"

Your machine should start talking.


technically not speakup.



On 12/04/2016 01:16 PM, Martin McCormick wrote:

The subject is really the whole message. The wheezy
installation is on a system with 384 MB of ram so there is no
orca but I have seen speakup run on less although this is
scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Any good ideas are welcome. Thank you.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ

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Re: Can I add speakup to An Existing Wheezy Installation?

[John G Heim]

If you are using a stock debian kernel, you don't have to add speakup. 
You just have to load it. I am guessing though that you are asking how 
to load speakup, right? Well, that depends on which speech synth you are 
using. I am going to guess you want to use software speech, right? In 
that case, you will have to add the espeak package. Here are the steps:


1. Type "modprobe speakup_soft"
2. Type "apt-get install espeakup"

Your machine should start talking.


technically not speakup.



On 12/04/2016 01:16 PM, Martin McCormick wrote:

The subject is really the whole message. The wheezy
installation is on a system with 384 MB of ram so there is no
orca but I have seen speakup run on less although this is
scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Any good ideas are welcome. Thank you.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ

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Re: iPhone Debate.

[John G Heim]

I think you should give touch screens another try. If it was me, I'd be 
afraid of ending up like some old grandad who doesn't know how to use a 
keyboard. You can't stop the relentless march of technology.



Smart phones themselves have been a huge boon for blind people but I am 
not so sure about touch screens. Just having a GPS in your pocket is 
enough of a benefit to make the smart phone a huge boon. There are 
pluses and minuses to touch screens though.

voices it's directions.  Even the most inaccessible app at least does that.

On 11/13/2016 06:44 PM, Hart Larry wrote:
Well, some  years ago I tried an Iphone, but could never become 
comfortable with a touch screen. At least an Iphone had a button for 
SIRI which an Android did not. Well, I ran a search in quotes

"smart phone with buttons"
Actually an item came up, but so-far you must buy from out of the US. 
Its a Kapsys, which they said was going to be available in October. 
Anyway Kapsys has a touch screen on the left, buttons on the right, 
however, some of the layout is weird. The Kapsys site is a challenge 
to find English. I already spoke with the future US distributer, but 
they like myself are still waiting

Hart



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Re: iPhone Debate.

[John G. Heim]

A few years ago on the web site of the International Association of 
Visually Impaired Technologists, www.iavit.org, I set up a page to 
compare screen readers. I thought I'd collect data and put up a fair, 
head-to-head comparison. My collaborators at iavit had an intervention 
with me and got me to take the page down.  They're like, "You don't want 
to open that can of worms." I swear I am the only person on this planet 
able to discuss this stuff rationally.


I have an ancient ipod touch and an iphone. The reason I got the itouch 
was that back then, all my research indicated that the screen reader for 
android was no where near as good as voiceover for IOS. As President of 
IAVIT and an employee at the University of Wisconsin, I have 
considerable expertise at hand.  I also read reviews on-line and asked 
around on the internet. Voiceover was the clear winner at that time. I 
did the same research the last time I bought a phone about a year and a 
half ago. all my research indicated that things had tightened up 
considerably but that voiceover for IOS was still ahead. Almost 
everybody I talked to said one thing that bothered me. They said you 
could get a lot out of an android phone but you'd have to work at it. An 
iphone just works.


I am happy with both my ipod touch and my iphone. I certainly don't 
think you're making a mistake to buy an iphone. It sounds to me that if 
you are willing to work at it, you might be able to get more bang for 
your buck from android. I don't know though, I don't have an android phone.


PS: Since when do worms come in a can?

On 11/13/2016 05:58 PM, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:

Back when I used an Android device, I don't remember much pressure to
use Google services, but that was back in the Android 2.3 days, so
it's entirely possible Google has gotten pushier since then.

Closest things to a Smartphone I have these days are a Raspberry
Pi(running Rasbian, giving me the freedom of Linux) and a Blaze ET,
which I think might be running a custom Android and doesn't really
have much beyond Text-to-speech of eBooks and media playback going for
it, but does those really well(Plays most audio and video formats(MKV
being the most notable exclusion) and reads most text formats(Kindle
being the most notable exclusion) all in a smartphone-like form
factor, a fully voiced interface with physical buttons and a
full-sized SD slot.



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Re: iPhone Debate.

[John G. Heim]

No, there are apps for everything in the Apple store. Oh, I have little 
doubt that you can find stuff it doesn't do. But it would have to be 
something pretty specialized.Apple does keep a pretty tight grip on 
what is in the store but, that does have it's benefits. It's not that 
different than debian keeping a tight grip on what's in the debian 
repository. The main difference is that you don't have to do anything to 
go outside the repository. But then debian doesn't offer any warranty 
and Apple does.





On 11/13/2016 05:33 PM, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:

Forked from the Spammer thread.

I've never owned an Apple product, and unless their business model
changes significantly, I never will, but pretty much every review of
any iPod, iPhone, or Ipad I've ever read paints a picture of needing a
hacked device if you want to do anything outside the rather narrow
band of what Apple is okay with you doing on the hardware you bought
from them, and in general, Apple gives off an even stronger control
freak vibe than Microsoft.



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Re: spammer on list

[John G. Heim]

Spouting nonsense like that is really irresponsible, Kyle.

The truth is that the iphone is a sweet little device. With a bluetooth 
keyboard, I can read & respond to email about as efficiently as I can on 
a desktop. I also use my iphone for skype, streaming media, scanning & 
reading text, identifying colors, as a GPS, tracking buses, listening to 
books, as an alarm clock, and -- well, I could go on and on. Oh yeah, I 
almost forgot, sometimes I use it as a phone.


On 11/13/2016 04:32 PM, Kyle wrote:
Well, being part of a botnet is about the only thing an iPhone can do 
well. Well, that and force you to join iTunes and iCloud, all of which 
are quite easy to break into and get your personal information, but 
Apple doesn't want us to know that, so they played a nice little PR 
game with the FBI in a feeble attempt to let us know that they are all 
for privacy and all that, when everyone knows how easy it is to break 
into an iPhone and the services it depends on in order to operate. 
Well, everyone except, apparently, the FBI, who played along in order 
to make the whole big bad government vs. Apple game look realistic.


And no, I don't have an iPhone, and no one could pay me enough to take 
one. I have just read far too many articles about people being able to 
break into them and the services they force you to use in order to do 
anything productive with them. Couple that with the nice little PR 
stunt they played with the FBI, capitalizing on an act of terrorism to 
try to prove their unhackability, and Apple definitely gets a failing 
grade in my book.

Sent from the new power generation


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Re: mutt indexing (was Re: Orca & tbird issues)

[John G. Heim]

I take it your job doesn't require you to read & respond to email. There 
are many reasons you might need to find a message from years ago if 
email is a big part of your job. I save almost everything I send but 
only a fraction of what I receive. Even so, the archive for each year's 
email is sometimes many thousands of messages.




On 11/12/2016 09:57 AM, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:

I'm honestly surprised at the e-mail backlogs some list members
maintain. I personally find it annoying when an e-mail gives me reason
to hold on to it longer than the time it takes to read, and if
appropriate, reply, and even among messages that land in my inbox and
don't get marked as spam, there are many I delete without reading
beyond the subject line(order confirmations and shipment notices from
Amazon being a prime example).



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Re: spammer on list

[John G. Heim]

Come on, Kyle. About the only thing an iphone can do is be part of a 
botnet? I take it you don't have an iphone.




On 11/12/2016 09:55 PM, Kyle wrote:
Watch this. The iPhone signature means nothing at all, as anyone can 
say it. And if you don't think that an iPhone can be part of a botnet, 
that's about the only thing it *can* do.

Sent from my iPhone

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Re: spammer on list

[John G. Heim]

But he/she must be a subscriber to the list. He/she should be kicked off 
the list. I am not assuming it's a wmoman just because it has a female 
name. Probably just a hacker.





On 11/12/2016 09:53 PM, Kyle wrote:
I received only one message, and ignored it. Since then, I have 
received no others. BTDubs, blocking someone from posting to the list 
will not stop them from contacting you directly, which is what the 
message I received would indicate was done. In such cases, you can 
flag the message as spam, but that won't necessarily keep that person 
from contacting you; it only makes it more likely that the mail 
provider's spam catcher will toss the message into your spam folder 
automatically on subsequent attempts.

Sent from the tears in your eyes

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Re: spammer on list

[John G. Heim]

The device comes configured that way. That is why so many people have it 
in their sig. On my ipod, I changed it to "Scent from my ipod" scent as 
in smell. But my phone might still have the original sig.





On 11/13/2016 02:43 PM, Christopher Chaltain wrote:
I figured the original intent of these signatures was just free 
advertising. I first noticed them when I'd see signatures like "This 
email message was scanned for viruses by some anti-virus application." 
I personally don't feel any more secure seeing a message like this 
since it would be trivial for a virus to insert this line itself. I do 
see some value in letting people know you're sending a message from a 
device where you may not be comfortable with text input.


On 13/11/16 12:26, Tim Chase wrote:

On November 13, 2016, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:

Honestly, I've never understood the "sent from x" meme. Like anyone
really gives a damn whether you were on your smartphone, or home
computer, or a school computer when you typed a message.


The original intent of the "sent from my 
iPhone/Blackberry/Palm/whatever"

was to convey "I'm typing this on a device where input is difficult,
so please forgive spelling & grammar errors and please excuse the
terseness of the reply."

It sorta morphed into a bragging about the technologically
advanced device you had, and then has since adopted a bit of a jokey
feel about it.  So I've seen jokes about old hardware such as "Sent
from my PDP-11" or "Sent from my Apple II".  There are also jokey
ones about Internet of Things devices such as "Sent from my
toaster/refrigerator".

But yeah, at this point in history, nobody really cares from which
device you send email.  They all do it. (grins)

-tim


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Re: Orca & tbird issues

[John G Heim]

There is a reason why apps like Thunderbird and Microsoft Office are so 
popular. They are easy and efficient. Thunderbird worked pretty well 
with orca for many years. I'm not going to change email clients every 
time some bug develops. I'd go crazy. These bugs are enough to make me 
change eventually. But I have hopes they'll be fixed.





On 11/10/2016 08:36 AM, Janina Sajka wrote:

I just don't see any good reason for running a client like mutt in a gui
terminal with Orca. Yes, from the "let's get everything working like it
should" perspective, we need good performance and good behavior in gui
terminals, but mutt just runs so well in a console terminal (think
screen) with Speakup, that I just don't worry my poor little head over
the gui terminal.

It's rather interesting, though, that similar issues can sometimes crop
up in the console environment. I've recently been running Fedora 25
pre-release mutt v. 1.7.1 as my client, and I occasionally run into
focus problems, meaning that what Speakup's Keypad 8 will say is one off
from the actual selection. Usually the screen Ctrl+l "redraw the screen"
command fixes that.

Until the last mutt update there was a more annoying issue for me where
Home and End didn't work to take you to the top or bottom of the index
list. It was a bug, and I'm so glad it's now squashed.

As for replying to the wrong person, that just happens if one isn't
careful to observe the header data before sending. You don't need to be
blind and using a screen reader to exhibit that behavior. I see the very
same thing every so often from the very smart teckies on my various W3C
lists, most of who are perfectly able bodied.

Mutt does have one command I absolutely love, and I wonder whether the
gui clients have something similar. There's the usual 'r' for reply to
the sender, and 'g' for reply to all, but I particularly appreciate
Shift+L for "reply only to the lists, and not the individuals."

I must confess, though, that I'm impressed that people have found a
browser interface to email fully usable. To me this suggests that
familiarity with the particular environment is still the most important
factor for success with whatever one chooses to use.

Janina

Tim Chase writes:

On November  9, 2016, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote:

Personally, I've never seen the point of e-mail clients and have
always used a web browser to check my e-mail.

I think the big advantage is off-line usage.  If you are connected
all the time and have dual-mode access for redundancy (say, a home
internet/wifi connection, and a 4G aircard), and don't roam much,
then a web-based mail client solves a lot of problems.  But when
internet access is spotty or unreliable, it's nice to have full
access to your email offline.  Fortunately, there are lots of
options, both within the GUI with varying degrees of accessibility
(Thunderbird, Kmail, Claws Mail, and Evolution come to mind) and
within the terminal (mutt and alpine being the dominant players, but
"alot" and mailx/heirloom mailx also come to mind as well as several
available within emacs).

-tim


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Orca & tbird issues (was: Update related to F123e)

[John G Heim]

The problem that keeps getting me in thunderbird is that if you tab into 
a mailbox, orca will read the subject & from headers for a message that 
may or may not be selected. If you wait until it's done speaking, orca 
will indeed say, "not selected". But who waits for orca to read that 
whole thing?  A similar thing happens if you press the end or 
control+end keys to go to the end of the list of messages in a mailbox. 
Orca will read the subject & from headers for the last message in the 
mailbox but that is not the message that is currently selected. If you 
press control+r to reply, you will be replying to the wrong message.



If you remember to move the focus around you can make sure you are on 
the message you actually want to respond to. But the problem is 
compounded by the fact that when you press reply, orca often has a 
problem reading the text in the message body. Mostly this can be fixed 
by shifting the focus away from thunderbird and back. I have little 
doubt this problem is basically with thunderbird because it is similar 
to a problem with gnome-terminal.  When you opena tab in gnome-terminal, 
orca often cannot read the text in the tab. If you switch the focus to 
different tab and back, then orca can read the text. I asked about this 
on the orca list and Jeanmarie Diggs said it was due to gnome-terminal 
being ill-behaved.  It wasn't setting the focus correctly or something.




On 11/09/2016 11:44 AM, Kyle wrote:
I personally have had no trouble at all responding to the right 
messages on both Thunderbird and Seamonkey. The only time I had any 
real trouble with that was back in the day when I ran Mutt lol. Man I 
almost got myself into some serious trouble with Mutt, because I tried 
to respond to a single person and ended up writing to a whole list 
instead. Those were the days ...

Sent round and round

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Re: Update related to F123e

[John G Heim]

Stupid orca & thunderbird!!! I keep responding to the wrong messages.





On 11/07/2016 10:02 AM, John G Heim wrote:
I thought it was a one-time thing. It wasn't clear in your original 
message that it happens every time. I'll fix it.





On 11/07/2016 05:35 AM, Jude DaShiell wrote:
A file emacspeak-easy-howto has some useful information in it.  I'll 
search my bookmarks and see if I can locate a link, but a google 
search with file:emacspeak-easy-howto ought to locate it if I don't 
have it in my bookmarks.


On Mon, 7 Nov 2016, Fernando Botelho wrote:


Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 06:16:20
From: Fernando Botelho 
To: Peter V?gner , blinux-list@redhat.com,
spee...@lists.freebsoft.org, f1...@groups.io
Subject: Re: Update related to F123e

Peter, we have now linked to your first post on this topic.

Do you have plans to research the possibility of importing Spacemacs 
keybindings to Emacs before you memorize too many of those Emacs 
keybindings?


Fernando


On 11/07/2016 07:53 AM, Peter V?gner wrote:

Hello,


It took me a long time to decide but I have attempted to start 
first blog post of what I hope will be a series on short tips on 
emacs accessibility.


For example I am looking into it for about a year sporadically.

I like F123E plan but instead of automation I would rather like to 
do something that would build on Arch linux philosophy. I am not 
going to rewrote the documentation but I would like to try showing 
some success stories while handling these things. Most of the 
articles end with a message saying something like it has a bit 
higher learning curve etc but unfortunatelly very little of them 
actually showcase how to go about changing that.


Let's see how this attempt will turn out.


So far I have got into basic buffer navigation and manipulation 
commands, navigating around emacs in general, emacs editing 
commands, understood so called easy customizations, got my-self to 
install and upgrade packages from elpa / melpa, briefly started 
playing with org mode, learned about basic dired file manipulation 
features, managed to connect to twitter with twittering-mode. And 
some invisible issues along my way such as debugging issues with 
request.el library and curl, getting epg working with gpg.


These are things I hope I have learned enough so I can comfortably 
use them.




Next on my todo list are knowing speechd-el better, emacs packages 
such as matrix-client for inovative instant messaging and more, 
jabber for classic messaging, gnus for email, sauron for integrated 
notifications.



This is my initial plan and these are things I wish to eventually 
cover later.



My first article just talks about installing and running emacs for 
the first time.



https://pvagner.tk/2016/emacs-a11y-tip-1-introduction-and-how-to-install 




Of course if you have ideas, comments, anything feel free to post.


Thanks and greetings



Peter




On 06.11.2016 at 18:17 Fernando Botelho wrote:

Thanks to those who have sent feedback to my emails to various lists.

So far this is what I have found out:

A lot of people are in agreement regarding the need for:

* An easier way to install and setup Emacspeak;
* An easier way for Emacspeak to use eSpeak and/or other 
synthesizers; and
* At least one expert also mentioned that Spacemacs does not solve 
all issues, as it has some inaccessible output.


However, it has been said that:

* SpeechD-el can make Emacs accessible;
* SpeechD-el already works well with Speech-Dispatcher and eSpeak;
* SpeechD-el is already easier to install and is multilingual by 
default;
* SpeechD-el could even be used to bridge communication between 
Emacspeak and Speech-Dispatcher and eSpeak; and
* it might be easier to just bring Spacemacs keybindings to 
classic Emacs rather than move all of the SpeechD-el or Emacspeak 
accessibility to Spacemacs.


I have updated our project document accordingly:
https://public.f123.org/experimental/About-F123e.html

Best,

Fernando


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Re: Update related to F123e

[John G Heim]

I thought it was a one-time thing. It wasn't clear in your original 
message that it happens every time. I'll fix it.





On 11/07/2016 05:35 AM, Jude DaShiell wrote:
A file emacspeak-easy-howto has some useful information in it.  I'll 
search my bookmarks and see if I can locate a link, but a google 
search with file:emacspeak-easy-howto ought to locate it if I don't 
have it in my bookmarks.


On Mon, 7 Nov 2016, Fernando Botelho wrote:


Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 06:16:20
From: Fernando Botelho 
To: Peter V?gner , blinux-list@redhat.com,
spee...@lists.freebsoft.org, f1...@groups.io
Subject: Re: Update related to F123e

Peter, we have now linked to your first post on this topic.

Do you have plans to research the possibility of importing Spacemacs 
keybindings to Emacs before you memorize too many of those Emacs 
keybindings?


Fernando


On 11/07/2016 07:53 AM, Peter V?gner wrote:

Hello,


It took me a long time to decide but I have attempted to start first 
blog post of what I hope will be a series on short tips on emacs 
accessibility.


For example I am looking into it for about a year sporadically.

I like F123E plan but instead of automation I would rather like to 
do something that would build on Arch linux philosophy. I am not 
going to rewrote the documentation but I would like to try showing 
some success stories while handling these things. Most of the 
articles end with a message saying something like it has a bit 
higher learning curve etc but unfortunatelly very little of them 
actually showcase how to go about changing that.


Let's see how this attempt will turn out.


So far I have got into basic buffer navigation and manipulation 
commands, navigating around emacs in general, emacs editing 
commands, understood so called easy customizations, got my-self to 
install and upgrade packages from elpa / melpa, briefly started 
playing with org mode, learned about basic dired file manipulation 
features, managed to connect to twitter with twittering-mode. And 
some invisible issues along my way such as debugging issues with 
request.el library and curl, getting epg working with gpg.


These are things I hope I have learned enough so I can comfortably 
use them.




Next on my todo list are knowing speechd-el better, emacs packages 
such as matrix-client for inovative instant messaging and more, 
jabber for classic messaging, gnus for email, sauron for integrated 
notifications.



This is my initial plan and these are things I wish to eventually 
cover later.



My first article just talks about installing and running emacs for 
the first time.



https://pvagner.tk/2016/emacs-a11y-tip-1-introduction-and-how-to-install 




Of course if you have ideas, comments, anything feel free to post.


Thanks and greetings



Peter




On 06.11.2016 at 18:17 Fernando Botelho wrote:

Thanks to those who have sent feedback to my emails to various lists.

So far this is what I have found out:

A lot of people are in agreement regarding the need for:

* An easier way to install and setup Emacspeak;
* An easier way for Emacspeak to use eSpeak and/or other 
synthesizers; and
* At least one expert also mentioned that Spacemacs does not solve 
all issues, as it has some inaccessible output.


However, it has been said that:

* SpeechD-el can make Emacs accessible;
* SpeechD-el already works well with Speech-Dispatcher and eSpeak;
* SpeechD-el is already easier to install and is multilingual by 
default;
* SpeechD-el could even be used to bridge communication between 
Emacspeak and Speech-Dispatcher and eSpeak; and
* it might be easier to just bring Spacemacs keybindings to classic 
Emacs rather than move all of the SpeechD-el or Emacspeak 
accessibility to Spacemacs.


I have updated our project document accordingly:
https://public.f123.org/experimental/About-F123e.html

Best,

Fernando


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Re: VirtualBox

[John G Heim]

The dialog boxes you interact with to do things like start/stop virtual 
machines in virtualbox are somewhat accessible with orca. I have never 
tried to create a virtual machine via the virtualbox gui though. I 
always use bash scripts. Here are links to 2 of my scripts. Keep in mind 
that they were both written for my own use so they are not the most user 
friendly scripts in the world.



First, this script creates a virtual machine with a 32 Gb disk, 2Gb of 
ram, and one cpu. It then boots from a grml iso.


http://www.math.wisc.edu/~jheim/pub/grml


Second, this script creates a vm with a 96Gb disk, 2Gb ram, and 1 cpu. 
It then bootsfrom a Win7 installation iso and installs Win7 via an 
answer file on a virtual floppy.


wget http://www.math.wisc.edu/~jheim/pub/win7-64




I'm not sure how helpful that second script will be without the answer 
file. There are plenty of instructions out there for creating an answer 
file for Win7 but it's a lot of work. I'd share my answer file but it 
has passwords in it. They're encrypted but I don't think I can put them 
out there anyway.






6 10:24 AM, Janina Sajka wrote:

Hi, Fernando:

I actually know this one! 

If you rely on screen readers you need to rely on VirtualBox from the
command line, or from a scripted environment. The graphical interface
isn't accessible to Orca. I believe it's kde, and we still haven't
really broken through to accessibility on kde.

Janina

Fernando Botelho writes:

Thanks anyway Janina,

Back in the day, I liked the fact that VirtualBox allowed one to do a lot of
things via the command line. I imagine all of that remains available. But I
will let more experienced current users comment.

Best,

Fernando


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Re: Talking ubuntu server install

[John G Heim]

Well, my point is that the ubuntu documentation indicates that at one 
time, software speech was an option. I suppose it's possible that when 
you selected the screen reader option, it then gave you a list of 
hardware synths to choose from. But I doubt that. So I suspect that 
ubuntu must have stopped including espeakup and espeak on it's server 
installation images. I am justasking if anyone ever used it before. We 
switched from debian to ubuntu maybe a year and a half ago and this was 
my first attempt to install ubuntu server myself. I have built servers 
by installing ubuntu desktop and then uninstalling the gui. In some 
cases, I didn't even bother doing that. But even if you remove the gui, 
it's not the same as installing ubuntu server.




On 08/16/2016 04:54 PM, Luke Yelavich wrote:

On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 03:29:08AM AEST, John G Heim wrote:

Right after I posted this, I was able to get sighted assistance. My
co-worker said it works to press the enter tkey to get past the language
selection screen. The F5 key then does bring up the accessibility menu.
However, it does not have an option to enable a screen reader. Did ubuntu
remove speakup from the 16.04 server install?

Even if speakup was present, there is no software speech stack shipped as
part of the server install, so far as I know.

Luke

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Re: Talking ubuntu server install

[John G Heim]

Right after I posted this, I was able to get sighted assistance. My 
co-worker said it works to press the enter tkey to get past the language 
selection screen. The F5 key then does bring up the accessibility menu. 
However, it does not have an option to enable a screen reader. Did 
ubuntu remove speakup from the 16.04 server install?




On 08/16/2016 12:17 PM, John G Heim wrote:
I'm trying to install ubuntu server 16.04. I have a bootable thumb 
drive but when I press F5, nothing happens. I am checking this with 
the KNFBReader app. I have also used a light probe to try to tell if 
the screen is changing brightness when I press the F4, F5, and F6 
keys. It doesn't seem to work. My keyboard works though. I can press 
enter to continue with the install. I just cannot seem to bring up the 
accessibility options.






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Talking ubuntu server install

[John G Heim]

I'm trying to install ubuntu server 16.04. I have a bootable thumb drive 
but when I press F5, nothing happens. I am checking this with the 
KNFBReader app. I have also used a light probe to try to tell if the 
screen is changing brightness when I press the F4, F5, and F6 keys. It 
doesn't seem to work. My keyboard works though. I can press enter to 
continue with the install. I just cannot seem to bring up the 
accessibility options.




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Re: redhat itself

[John G Heim]

Well, this goes back to the reason I helped create the International 
Association Of Visually Impaired Technologists. There doesn't seem to be 
anybody taking systems admin accessibility seriously. I talked to Curtis 
Chong of the NFB about this. The NFB spends a lot of it's resources 
talking to Microsoft about fairly minor accessibility flaws in Excel, 
Word, etc or to Amazon and Netfliks about the accessibility of their web 
sites. I argued that something like the Red Hat kernel not having 
console speech was more important because that could cost a sys admin 
his job. In fact, I know that things like that cost sys admins their 
jobs because I've seen it. You may not be fired for not being able to 
access the console on your servers. But what happens is that someone 
else is given all the duties involved with console access. It's one 
thing after another like that and pretty soon, your entire job consists 
of nothing more than helping people change their passwords. And when 
layoffs come around, you're the one to go. And that's only fair -- after 
all, you are the least valuable person in the department. I've seen this 
happen often enough that I even coined a term for it. I call it "getting 
backwatered".


I doubt that not having console speech is a huge problem for more than a 
handful of blind systems admins. But it is just one more brick in the wall.




On 08/11/2016 08:49 AM, Janina Sajka wrote:

Hi, John:

It's certainly possible to build rpms with the staging modules for
Fedora. I used to do that years ago. Bill Acker kept up with doing that
in recent years. While he wasn't the maintainer at rpmfusion for that
particular package, builds did seem to cease about the time of his
demise.

I'm also surprised that others weren't clamoring for these drivers for
their own, non Speakup related reasons, but I never did find any
discussion like that. I filed bugs with each new Fedora release, but
nothing happened. In fact the very last release at rpmfusion never
worked because of broken dependencies. I've been sitting on a 4.0.3
kernel until I finally switched to Arch. Key functionality on my systems
had begun to break, for example linphone.

Yes, there was the option for me to take over building these rpms.
However, it's not were I want to focus my efforts these days. I
certainly thought about it. After all, there's a good deal of
dislocation involved in switching distributions. Not everything works
the same way, and I've already bumped into a need for workarounds.

Fedora is certainly a major Linux distribution with much to recommend
it, but easy use of Speakup is no longer one of its attributes. On the
other hand I'm not aware of anyone using RHEL with Speakup. Certainly,
there maybe someone who's figured that out. I can categorically report
that Bill Acker failed in his attempts to build RHEL kernels with
Speakup support, though these efforts took place some years ago. I'm not
aware that he tried post 3.x, for instance.

Lastly, I should add that the very argument you're making is one I tried
making with the U.S. Access Board when the first Sec. 508 regulations
were being written.  Doug Wakefield didn't agree, and my argument was
not accepted, and Redhat, among others,  was able to slither off the
hook around low-level systems accessibility.

Janina

John G Heim writes:

Surely there must be somebody building kernels with those modules so that
you can  install by adding their yum repository to your system. If not, it
would mean that a blind RH systems admin couldn't do his work at the
console. If remote access is broken he'd be in serious trouble. Most systems
admins don't have a choice as to what flavor of linux they use in their job.
Here at the University of Wisconsin, the IT department used to run Red Hat.
The campus had a site license. The Math Department, where I work, uses
debian and ubuntu. But if I worked in another department, I'd probably be
stuck with RH.


I have been building kernels for debian and ubuntu that have a hack do
serial synths work. I set up a apt repository at www.iavit.org so other
people can use them too. I don't know anything about Red Hat but surely
there must be the equivalent of a ppa.




On 08/10/2016 09:10 AM, Janina Sajka wrote:

Hi,

Well, I've moved from Fedora to Arch on any machine where I need
Speakup. The reason is that rpmfusion has not provided kernel staging
modules since kernel 4.0.4.

So, I had the choice of constantly building my own, or switching
distros. I chose the latter.

I am still running Fedora on my data center server, but I don't use
Speakup on that machine, of course.

Janina

Willem van der Walt writes:

Redhat these days is mostly used on servers as one buys support for that,
but it is accessible.
I ran Redhat years ago, but these days, I think, Janina is still running it
or Fedora without prob

Re: redhat itself

[John G Heim]

Surely there must be somebody building kernels with those modules so 
that you can  install by adding their yum repository to your system. If 
not, it would mean that a blind RH systems admin couldn't do his work at 
the console. If remote access is broken he'd be in serious trouble. Most 
systems admins don't have a choice as to what flavor of linux they use 
in their job. Here at the University of Wisconsin, the IT department 
used to run Red Hat. The campus had a site license. The Math Department, 
where I work, uses debian and ubuntu. But if I worked in another 
department, I'd probably be stuck with RH.



I have been building kernels for debian and ubuntu that have a hack do 
serial synths work. I set up a apt repository at www.iavit.org so other 
people can use them too. I don't know anything about Red Hat but surely 
there must be the equivalent of a ppa.





On 08/10/2016 09:10 AM, Janina Sajka wrote:

Hi,

Well, I've moved from Fedora to Arch on any machine where I need
Speakup. The reason is that rpmfusion has not provided kernel staging
modules since kernel 4.0.4.

So, I had the choice of constantly building my own, or switching
distros. I chose the latter.

I am still running Fedora on my data center server, but I don't use
Speakup on that machine, of course.

Janina

Willem van der Walt writes:

Redhat these days is mostly used on servers as one buys support for that,
but it is accessible.
I ran Redhat years ago, but these days, I think, Janina is still running it
or Fedora without problems.
HTH, Willem


On Sat, 6 Aug 2016, Mark Peveto wrote:


Hmm, I noticed this is hosted on redhat.com.  Does redhat have an accessible 
distro?

Everything happens after coffee!

Mark Peveto
Registered Linux user number 600552
Sent from sonar using alpine 2.20.14

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patched ubuntu & debian kernels

[John G Heim]

I have posted patched/hacked kernels for debian jessie and ubuntu xenial 
on my space at www.iavit.org. These kernels are modified to work with 
serial hardware synths like the litetalk and the doubletalk. Those are 
the only 2 synths I have to test with so the kernels have not been 
tested with other synths. But they should probably work. To use the 
kernels download the apt list file and then follow the instructions in 
the comments in the file itself.


For debian:

$ wget http://www.iavit.org/~john/iavit.list

For ubuntu:

$ wget http://www.iavit.org/~john/ubuntu/iavit.list


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Re: Concerning Debian and ArchLinux

[John G Heim]

To be fair to grml, it already has most of those things. You do have to 
modprobe speakup_soft and then run espeakup to get speech. But brltty 
comes up automatically if you have a braille display. The grml 
developers have been very receptive to feedback over the years.



I am a little wary of a distro that does too much. The grml developers 
pretty much treat accessibility like anything else -- they include it if 
they can. In a way, that's a good approach because if it's too hard,  
the enthusiasm for maintaining it is going to fade over time.


On the other hand, grml hasn't had a new major release in 2 years. On 
the grml list, one of the developers implied that they were having 
trouble with their next release because of the switch to systemd. But I 
don't really know what is going on. It could be that the project is 
running out of steam. This stuff tends to depend on a single person 
driving the project. If that person has to move on for some reason, the 
project fizzles.

On 08/02/2016 03:07 AM, Peter Billam wrote:

Greetings.  Joel Roth writes:

Devuan, a derivative of debian Jessie, is available as
a minimal live image with beep, brltty, espeak, espeakup, yasr
   http://devuan.kalos.mine.nu/
  
It seems like years I've been waiting for this !

And from the package-list it looks like there's alsa but no pulse.
I look forward to trying it out.
Good news :-)
  
Peter Billam
  
http://www.pjb.com.au  p...@pjb.com.au (03) 6278 9410

"Follow the charge, not the particle."  --  Richard Feynman
  from The Theory of Positrons, Physical Review, 1949

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Re: Concerning Debian and ArchLinux

[John G Heim]

You don't have to reinstall to upgrade a debian system from one stable 
release to the next. Sometimes the upgrade does fail and rarely, this 
can have disasterous results. So make a backup first. You can also do 
continuous upgrades by running the testing release instead of the stable 
release of debian. Even that isn't entirely without risk as a nightly or 
weekly upgrade might break something. But I would imagine arch has that 
problem too because it's caused by linux package developers not being 
perfect. If you don't want to go through the massive upgrade every 2 
years from one stable debian release to the next, I'd recommend you try 
the debian testing release and do nightly upgrades. That name "testing" 
is really a misnomer. It's not like this stuff hasn't been tested. And 
you could say that everything is in the process of being tested.  The 
distinction between a stable and a testing package is rather ill-defined.


Here at the Math Department at the University Of Wisconsin, I switched 
our workstations over from debian stable to ubuntu short time support or 
STS. A new release of ubuntu STS comes out every 6 months. Then I do 
upgrades in January and July when the students are gone. Ubuntu has a 
release upgrader program for doing upgrades.


On 08/01/2016 12:18 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:

That is the latest stable version of Debian? I am curently using Jessie.

I like the idea of ArchLinux, because it never requires re-installation.
Why don't the other distros take a similar approach? However, i don't
want to start with the bare-bones installation that is downloadable. I
would like one that includes brltty, internet access and the package
manager.

Thanks,
John



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Re: Questions about setting up a new computer

[John G Heim]

I just don't know right off hand. I would volunteer to try it on my own 
machine but I am on vacation this week and cannot get to it until next week.




On 07/18/2016 03:07 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:

Hi John,

I typed apt-get install gnome-orca. It is ready to go if I type yes.
However, i have a couple of concerns. Will the desktop come up the next
time I boot? I want to be sure the boot is in command-line moded. Orca
was using an old and buggy version of liblouis. It replaced the good
version that I was using for translation. Something to do with the
search path for .so files.

Thanks,
John

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 01:53:50PM -0500, John G. Heim wrote:

I recommended the SSD drive because you seemed so concerned about speed.
Everything you say below sounds right to me. You cannot save a significant
amount of money buying less than 8Gb of ram or a hard drive smaller than
1Tb. You will be able to switch to a gui some time in the future.

If you are going to install debian yourself, basically what you want to do
is to unselect the graphical user interface when it gets to the page where
you select software to install. And then after you are finished with the
install, use apt to install the graphical user interface as a separate step.
I've done this many times myself but not for a year or so and my memory is a
little fuzzy. I think the gui (or it might be called the desktop) is item 10
or 11 and it is selected by default. You have to unselect it and then
continue with the install. After it finishes and you reboot, it will be in
character mode.  I think you can then install the gui by simply typing
"apt-get install gnome-orca". That will install orca, gnome, and all of
their dependencies. You can then start the gui by typing "startx".




Well, that's from memory. I could try it at home sometime soon but I won't
have time to try it until next week.


On 07/17/2016 03:53 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:

With the information i have received from the list I would now say that
8 GB of RAM is more than enough. Since Linux caches files in memory, the
value of an SSD is debatable. I'll probably get a 1 TB hard drive. The
performance with my present hard drive is fast enough, and 1 TB drives
are cheap.

I'll stick with a desktop tower and have bluetooth, an ethernet gigabit
port, USB 2.9 and 3.0 ports, etc.

How would I set up Debian so that it boots in command-line mode but I
can start a desktop when I want it? Which desktop is most like Windows?
Right now I have a new VGA monitor for work with sighted colleagues.
Would this be enough?

Thanks,
John

On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 12:16:35PM -0500, John G. Heim wrote:

I was going to say the same thinga bout getting 32 Gb of ram. The main
reason most people get as much as 32Gb for their personal workstations is
for on-line gaming. Or if you are into creating virtual machines you might
be able to use 32Gb of ram. But here at the Math Department at the UW, the
only machines we have with 32Gb of ram are used for research like modelling
cloud formations. None of  our web server, mail server, database server, or
file server have 32 GB of ram. I think you could combine all 4 of those
functions onto one server and still get by with less than 32Gb of ram. If it
was me, I'd spend my money on an SSD drive.

As for the cpu, at the Math department, we have bought nothing but Intel I5
machines for the past several years. It used to be that Intel and AMD would
leapfrog each other with each new cpu release. But that hasn't happened
lately. I think the money Intel has been abel to spend on research has put
them ahead for good. I have a brand new PC on my desk at work but I turned
it off for the weekend. I can't see the cpu model right now but I know it is
some type of Intel I5. But the last 2 groups of machines we bought had Intel
I5-4570 and I5-4590 cpus. If you are doing something that actually will use
32Gb of ram, you might get an Intel I7 processor to go with that. But again,
I'd spend my money on an SSD drive.




On 07/16/2016 05:36 PM, Joel Roth wrote:

Hi John,

If  you are working in the console, you won't generally need high
performance hardware.  If you compile a lot of software, or
do disk intensive work, a solid-state disk is nice. I notice
powerful processors make a difference in compressing video
and any scientific computing.

A big issue in new hardware is uefi vs BIOS booting.
And in that motherboards shipped with the microsoft
signed boot loading restrictions.

http://www.rodsbooks.com/efi-bootloaders/secureboot.html

BIOS has been around a long time, and easy to deal with
in a linux environment.

Have fun,

Joel
John J. Boyer wrote:

Thanks for the information. I had forgotten some of the Linux terms,
such as swap file or partition. How do I go about setting up a tmpfs?

The installation will be command-line only Braille only Debian. I might
add a desktop later, but I don't want it to be automatic

Re: Questions about setting up a new computer

[John G Heim]

I recommended the SSD drive because you seemed so concerned about speed. 
Everything you say below sounds right to me. You cannot save a 
significant amount of money buying less than 8Gb of ram or a hard drive 
smaller than 1Tb. You will be able to switch to a gui some time in the 
future.


If you are going to install debian yourself, basically what you want to 
do is to unselect the graphical user interface when it gets to the page 
where you select software to install. And then after you are finished 
with the install, use apt to install the graphical user interface as a 
separate step. I've done this many times myself but not for a year or so 
and my memory is a little fuzzy. I think the gui (or it might be called 
the desktop) is item 10 or 11 and it is selected by default. You have to 
unselect it and then continue with the install. After it finishes and 
you reboot, it will be in character mode.  I think you can then install 
the gui by simply typing "apt-get install gnome-orca". That will install 
orca, gnome, and all of their dependencies. You can then start the gui 
by typing "startx".





Well, that's from memory. I could try it at home sometime soon but I 
won't have time to try it until next week.



On 07/17/2016 03:53 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:

With the information i have received from the list I would now say that
8 GB of RAM is more than enough. Since Linux caches files in memory, the
value of an SSD is debatable. I'll probably get a 1 TB hard drive. The
performance with my present hard drive is fast enough, and 1 TB drives
are cheap.

I'll stick with a desktop tower and have bluetooth, an ethernet gigabit
port, USB 2.9 and 3.0 ports, etc.

How would I set up Debian so that it boots in command-line mode but I
can start a desktop when I want it? Which desktop is most like Windows?
Right now I have a new VGA monitor for work with sighted colleagues.
Would this be enough?

Thanks,
John

On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 12:16:35PM -0500, John G. Heim wrote:

I was going to say the same thinga bout getting 32 Gb of ram. The main
reason most people get as much as 32Gb for their personal workstations is
for on-line gaming. Or if you are into creating virtual machines you might
be able to use 32Gb of ram. But here at the Math Department at the UW, the
only machines we have with 32Gb of ram are used for research like modelling
cloud formations. None of  our web server, mail server, database server, or
file server have 32 GB of ram. I think you could combine all 4 of those
functions onto one server and still get by with less than 32Gb of ram. If it
was me, I'd spend my money on an SSD drive.

As for the cpu, at the Math department, we have bought nothing but Intel I5
machines for the past several years. It used to be that Intel and AMD would
leapfrog each other with each new cpu release. But that hasn't happened
lately. I think the money Intel has been abel to spend on research has put
them ahead for good. I have a brand new PC on my desk at work but I turned
it off for the weekend. I can't see the cpu model right now but I know it is
some type of Intel I5. But the last 2 groups of machines we bought had Intel
I5-4570 and I5-4590 cpus. If you are doing something that actually will use
32Gb of ram, you might get an Intel I7 processor to go with that. But again,
I'd spend my money on an SSD drive.




On 07/16/2016 05:36 PM, Joel Roth wrote:

Hi John,

If  you are working in the console, you won't generally need high
performance hardware.  If you compile a lot of software, or
do disk intensive work, a solid-state disk is nice. I notice
powerful processors make a difference in compressing video
and any scientific computing.

A big issue in new hardware is uefi vs BIOS booting.
And in that motherboards shipped with the microsoft
signed boot loading restrictions.

http://www.rodsbooks.com/efi-bootloaders/secureboot.html

BIOS has been around a long time, and easy to deal with
in a linux environment.

Have fun,

Joel
John J. Boyer wrote:

Thanks for the information. I had forgotten some of the Linux terms,
such as swap file or partition. How do I go about setting up a tmpfs?

The installation will be command-line only Braille only Debian. I might
add a desktop later, but I don't want it to be automatically loaded at
boot time.

What CPU would be appropriae. I would guess something recent, but not
the latest.

Thanks,
John

On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 02:06:45PM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:

"John" == John J Boyer  writes:

 John> I've more or less decided to replacer my ten-year-old Linux
 John> machine. It is giving error messages intermittently. Most of
 John> them are about sector errors, but others seem to have nothing
 John> to do with the hard drive. It may be more and more
 John> troublesome, even if the hard drive is replaced.  Besides, it
 John> would be nice to get more up-to-

Re: Questions about setting up a new computer

[John G. Heim]

I was going to say the same thinga bout getting 32 Gb of ram. The main 
reason most people get as much as 32Gb for their personal workstations 
is for on-line gaming. Or if you are into creating virtual machines you 
might be able to use 32Gb of ram. But here at the Math Department at the 
UW, the only machines we have with 32Gb of ram are used for research 
like modelling cloud formations. None of  our web server, mail server, 
database server, or file server have 32 GB of ram. I think you could 
combine all 4 of those functions onto one server and still get by with 
less than 32Gb of ram. If it was me, I'd spend my money on an SSD drive.


As for the cpu, at the Math department, we have bought nothing but Intel 
I5 machines for the past several years. It used to be that Intel and AMD 
would leapfrog each other with each new cpu release. But that hasn't 
happened lately. I think the money Intel has been abel to spend on 
research has put them ahead for good. I have a brand new PC on my desk 
at work but I turned it off for the weekend. I can't see the cpu model 
right now but I know it is some type of Intel I5. But the last 2 groups 
of machines we bought had Intel I5-4570 and I5-4590 cpus. If you are 
doing something that actually will use 32Gb of ram, you might get an 
Intel I7 processor to go with that. But again, I'd spend my money on an 
SSD drive.





On 07/16/2016 05:36 PM, Joel Roth wrote:

Hi John,

If  you are working in the console, you won't generally need high
performance hardware.  If you compile a lot of software, or
do disk intensive work, a solid-state disk is nice. I notice
powerful processors make a difference in compressing video
and any scientific computing.

A big issue in new hardware is uefi vs BIOS booting.
And in that motherboards shipped with the microsoft
signed boot loading restrictions.

http://www.rodsbooks.com/efi-bootloaders/secureboot.html

BIOS has been around a long time, and easy to deal with
in a linux environment.

Have fun,

Joel
  
John J. Boyer wrote:

Thanks for the information. I had forgotten some of the Linux terms,
such as swap file or partition. How do I go about setting up a tmpfs?

The installation will be command-line only Braille only Debian. I might
add a desktop later, but I don't want it to be automatically loaded at
boot time.

What CPU would be appropriae. I would guess something recent, but not
the latest.

Thanks,
John

On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 02:06:45PM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:

"John" == John J Boyer  writes:

 John> I've more or less decided to replacer my ten-year-old Linux
 John> machine. It is giving error messages intermittently. Most of
 John> them are about sector errors, but others seem to have nothing
 John> to do with the hard drive. It may be more and more
 John> troublesome, even if the hard drive is replaced.  Besides, it
 John> would be nice to get more up-to-date hardware.

 John> I'm thinking of getting 32 GB of ram. 8 GB will be for normal
 John> use. The other 24 GB will be in a ramdisk.

I think you must have a DOS background here.
An explicit RAM disk is rarely if ever useful on Linux.  I'm tryinfg to
remember if I even know how to create a block device backed by RAM... O,
yeah, I can think of a way,  but you probably don't want to do that.

Instead, you probably do want to create something called a tmpfs.
That's a filesystem backed by RAM.  When your computer reboots all its
contents go away.

There are important differences between a tmpfs and a RAM disk.
The biggest is that Linux will only use as much RAM as is needed by the
tmpfs to store what currently lives in it.
(You can set a maximum size, but with 32g I wouldn't bother)

So, you can get the best of both worlds, storing your temporary files in
RAM, but using RAM for RAM if you don't have 24G of temporary files at
the moment.


 John> Do I need a paging
 John> file? 8 GB of available ram should be more than enough. The
 John> paging file on my present machine always shows 0 usage, even
 John> with only 4 GB of ram.


Having a paging file has a couple of affects even if it is not used, but
no, you probably don't want a swap partition or file (linux names for
paging)

 John> How do I avoid setting up a paging file
 John> during installation? I'm using Debian Jessie.

In expert mode, avoid creating a swap partition and if asked don't
create a swap file.
If you don't want to use expert mode, don't worry about it; having a
swap partition won't be a problem.

 John> How do i set up the ramdisk? I want to assign the temp
 John> directory to it.

I think the installer will do that by default.
But in /etc/fstab you want a line like

none/tmptmpfs   
defaults0   0

 John> It might be nice if the
 John> bin, sbin and usr
 John> directories were loaded onto it at boot-up.

No need for that.
Linux is also smart en

Re: latest ubuntu

[John G Heim]

I used the 64-bit desktop image of ubuntu.  You know, it occurs to me 
that a likely cause for your installer crash might be invalid 
installation media. Either the image got scrambled during download or it 
got scrambled being written to your installation media. I think you 
should download the image again and try a new CD or a different thumb 
drive. How old is your computer? It'd be better if it's old because the 
drivers are going to be stable. On the other hand, an oldcomputer is 
more likely to have problems. So it could be the computer but I'd bet on 
installation media.

On 07/07/2016 11:07 AM, Kristoffer Gustafsson wrote:

Hi.
what ubuntu image did you download?
I downloaded ubuntu desktop.
right after ubuntu had made partitions and continued with the
installation it crashed.
I wonder why the netinstall iso didn't find my harddrive. it would
have been easier to install in text mode like in debian.
do you think that all my problems is because I've got a bad computer?
I mean the things with alsa and so.
/Kristoffer


2016-07-07 17:21 GMT+02:00, John G Heim :

I think it's a little hasty to tell people not to try ubuntu 16.04. I've
installed ubuntu 16.04 so often that I eventually took the time to
configure a pxe installation server. I've never had it crash. Your
problem might have been a hardware failure or a kernel bug. Ubuntu
compiles it's own kernels but they are not responsible for the drivers.

On 07/07/2016 09:46 AM, Kristoffer Gustafsson wrote:

Hi.
This was not good. Tried to install ubuntu desktop. The installer crached.
Do not try ubuntu desktop 16.04.

Skickat från min iPhone


7 juli 2016 kl. 15:26 skrev Mark Peveto :

Also, ubuntu mate is accessible as well.  I've run it.

Mark Peveto
Registered Linux user number 600552
Sent from f123 visual using alpine 2.20.13



On Thu, 7 Jul 2016, Christopher Chaltain wrote:

What version of Ubuntu have you tried, and how did you try to bring up
speech?
Did you try alt+super+s for example?

Also, Vinux is based on Ubuntu, and it comes up talking.


On 07/07/16 06:17, Kristoffer Gustafsson wrote:
Hi.
Since I got problems with latest testing version of debian(it refuses
to run orca) I have decided to try ubuntu instead.
but when trying there is no braille or speech at all.
can I install ubuntu in some way?
I tried the network install, but when I did ubuntu didn't find my
harddrive. just the usb stick.
/Kristoffer

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Re: Sharing files between Linux and Windows

[John G Heim]

It looks right to me assuming your user name is lshare. Surely, you 
don't usually log in as lshare, do you? You can create a user just for 
sharing files but you are going to run into a lot of permissions 
problems. It would be better just to use the user name you usually log 
in as.
In fact, I always use the same user name and password in both linux and 
Windows to make it easier to map a share in Windows.







On 07/07/2016 11:05 AM, John J. Boyer wrote:

Hi John,

When I enter as root

smbpasswd -a lshare

it asks for a password, but then it gives the message "Failed to add
entry for user lshare".

John

On Wed, Jul 06, 2016 at 07:11:54PM -0500, John G. Heim wrote:

I am pretty sure that on your linux machine, all you have to do is this:

sudo apt-get install samba

*sudo smbpasswd -a *


That's all I did  on a fresh debian jessie machine and I was able to access
my files in Win7. In Win7, press control+r to open a run dialog box. Type
\\\. That will open a dialog box for mapping a share.
If you make your linux user ID and password match your Win7 user ID and
password, you don't even have to enter those things. If they don't match,
there is a link titled something like "Log in with a different user name and
password". Sorry, I'd have to reboot into Win7 again to get the exact title
of the link.

But seriously, those 2 commands were all I had to do to access my files from
my Win7 machine. If you want to modify the files on your linux machine, you
have to edit /etc/samba/smb.conf on the linux machine. But for copying the
files to your Win7 machine, I really think that is all you have to do.


On 07/06/2016 01:39 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:

I tried to install a samba server on Windows. However, the Geek Squad
agent who was helping said he didn't know enough to proceed. If I go to
the Samba website, what should I do?

Thanks,
John

On Wed, Jul 06, 2016 at 01:22:27PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:

Ditto. I've also only every used Samba for this.

Note, however, that once you have Samba set up, you can perfectly access
the Windows folder from the Linux command line. Look at the man pages
for the following:

smbclient
smbget

Good luck!

Janina

John G Heim writes:

I have always done this with samba.  I never found it particularly
difficult. You do have to read/follow the instructions.



On 07/05/2016 01:36 PM, Mark Peveto wrote:

I'll be interested in the answer to that question myself.  I've had some tell 
me I need to use samba to do that...I've never been able to make it work.

Mark Peveto
Registered Linux user number 600552
Sent from F123 Visual using alpine 2.20.13


On Tue, 5 Jul 2016, John J. Boyer wrote:


I'm going to set up a folder called c:\share on my Windows machine. I
want to set up a device on my Linux machine which is connected with this
folder over my LAN. I know that this can be done, because I had
something similar at one time. However, i'm not certain how to do it
again. If I remember, it just took an entry in fstab and an entry in
/dev. Thanks.

John

--
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Email: john.bo...@abilitiessoft.org
Website: http://www.abilitiessoft.org
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Mission: To develop softwares and provide STEM services for people with
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Re: Sharing files between Linux and Windows

[John G Heim]

You won't be able to find a existing case with space for an integrated 
braille display. It might be possible to install linux on a Pac Mate 
though. I had a Pac Mate with a 40 cell display. I still use the display 
every day but it is attached to my linux desktop. The Pac Mate itselfis 
gone. The battery blew up and the keyboard went bad. But I'll bet I 
could buy just the Pac Mate part for $100 these days. It might take more 
brains than I have to install linux on that thing though.
Another option is to design your own case and have it printed on a 3D 
printer. But I don't think it's practical for a blind person to do that 
because the 3D drawing software is not going to be accessible.


The whole thing could be a business opportunity for someone though. 
Start with a raspberry pi or something like that, design a case with an 
integrated braille display, and  start selling linux notetakers.






On 07/07/2016 10:53 AM, John J. Boyer wrote:

Hi Janina,

Building or rather designing my own computer would be fun. Maybe I can
get others interested in participating.

I'm thinking that what I would really like is a laptop with a built-in
Braille display. It would have to have wi-fi and I would install
comand-line only Debian. I have a Focus 40 display. Perhaps it could be
attached to the laptop, so the two would be a single physical unit.

John



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Re: latest ubuntu

[John G Heim]

I think it's a little hasty to tell people not to try ubuntu 16.04. I've 
installed ubuntu 16.04 so often that I eventually took the time to 
configure a pxe installation server. I've never had it crash. Your 
problem might have been a hardware failure or a kernel bug. Ubuntu 
compiles it's own kernels but they are not responsible for the drivers.


On 07/07/2016 09:46 AM, Kristoffer Gustafsson wrote:

Hi.
This was not good. Tried to install ubuntu desktop. The installer crached.
Do not try ubuntu desktop 16.04.

Skickat från min iPhone


7 juli 2016 kl. 15:26 skrev Mark Peveto :

Also, ubuntu mate is accessible as well.  I've run it.

Mark Peveto
Registered Linux user number 600552
Sent from f123 visual using alpine 2.20.13



On Thu, 7 Jul 2016, Christopher Chaltain wrote:

What version of Ubuntu have you tried, and how did you try to bring up speech?
Did you try alt+super+s for example?

Also, Vinux is based on Ubuntu, and it comes up talking.


On 07/07/16 06:17, Kristoffer Gustafsson wrote:
Hi.
Since I got problems with latest testing version of debian(it refuses
to run orca) I have decided to try ubuntu instead.
but when trying there is no braille or speech at all.
can I install ubuntu in some way?
I tried the network install, but when I did ubuntu didn't find my
harddrive. just the usb stick.
/Kristoffer

--
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chaltain at Gmail

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Re: Sharing files between Linux and Windows

[John G. Heim]

I am pretty sure that on your linux machine, all you have to do is this:

sudo apt-get install samba

*sudo smbpasswd -a *


That's all I did  on a fresh debian jessie machine and I was able to 
access my files in Win7. In Win7, press control+r to open a run dialog 
box. Type \\\. That will open a dialog box for 
mapping a share.  If you make your linux user ID and password match your 
Win7 user ID and password, you don't even have to enter those things. If 
they don't match, there is a link titled something like "Log in with a 
different user name and password". Sorry, I'd have to reboot into Win7 
again to get the exact title of the link.


But seriously, those 2 commands were all I had to do to access my files 
from my Win7 machine. If you want to modify the files on your linux 
machine, you have to edit /etc/samba/smb.conf on the linux machine. But 
for copying the files to your Win7 machine, I really think that is all 
you have to do.



On 07/06/2016 01:39 PM, John J. Boyer wrote:

I tried to install a samba server on Windows. However, the Geek Squad
agent who was helping said he didn't know enough to proceed. If I go to
the Samba website, what should I do?

Thanks,
John

On Wed, Jul 06, 2016 at 01:22:27PM -0400, Janina Sajka wrote:

Ditto. I've also only every used Samba for this.

Note, however, that once you have Samba set up, you can perfectly access
the Windows folder from the Linux command line. Look at the man pages
for the following:

smbclient
smbget

Good luck!

Janina

John G Heim writes:

I have always done this with samba.  I never found it particularly
difficult. You do have to read/follow the instructions.



On 07/05/2016 01:36 PM, Mark Peveto wrote:

I'll be interested in the answer to that question myself.  I've had some tell 
me I need to use samba to do that...I've never been able to make it work.

Mark Peveto
Registered Linux user number 600552
Sent from F123 Visual using alpine 2.20.13


On Tue, 5 Jul 2016, John J. Boyer wrote:


I'm going to set up a folder called c:\share on my Windows machine. I
want to set up a device on my Linux machine which is connected with this
folder over my LAN. I know that this can be done, because I had
something similar at one time. However, i'm not certain how to do it
again. If I remember, it just took an entry in fstab and an entry in
/dev. Thanks.

John

--
John J. Boyer; President,
AbilitiesSoft, Inc.
Email: john.bo...@abilitiessoft.org
Website: http://www.abilitiessoft.org
Status: 501(C)(3) Nonprofit
Location: Madison, Wisconsin USA
Mission: To develop softwares and provide STEM services for people with
   disabilities which are available at no cost.

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Email:  jan...@rednote.net

Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:   http://a11y.org

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Re: Sharing files between Linux and Windows

[John G Heim]

I have always done this with samba.  I never found it particularly 
difficult. You do have to read/follow the instructions.




On 07/05/2016 01:36 PM, Mark Peveto wrote:

I'll be interested in the answer to that question myself.  I've had some tell 
me I need to use samba to do that...I've never been able to make it work.

Mark Peveto
Registered Linux user number 600552
Sent from F123 Visual using alpine 2.20.13


On Tue, 5 Jul 2016, John J. Boyer wrote:


I'm going to set up a folder called c:\share on my Windows machine. I
want to set up a device on my Linux machine which is connected with this
folder over my LAN. I know that this can be done, because I had
something similar at one time. However, i'm not certain how to do it
again. If I remember, it just took an entry in fstab and an entry in
/dev. Thanks.

John

--
John J. Boyer; President,
AbilitiesSoft, Inc.
Email: john.bo...@abilitiessoft.org
Website: http://www.abilitiessoft.org
Status: 501(C)(3) Nonprofit
Location: Madison, Wisconsin USA
Mission: To develop softwares and provide STEM services for people with
  disabilities which are available at no cost.

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Re: how do I find out what's hanging me up?

[John G. Heim]

I was amazed by the results from Tap Tap See. I pointed it at my guide 
dog and it said, "light brown medium coat dog". But googling shows me 
that it relies at least partially on humans to identify your objects. I 
suspect if the human sees words on the screen, she sends it off to the 
ocr infrastructure which then sends the results back to you. You may do 
slightly better with the knfbReader app. I've had some limited success 
with it reading computer screens. It seems to do better with GUI screens 
than character screens. It maybe that it doesn't like white letters on a 
black background.


I have a thumb drive with the Win7 installation image and an answer 
file. So I can boot from this thumb drive and it installs Win7. I've 
been able to keep up with the progress by having the knfbReader read the 
screens to me. But when I've tried it on a character screen, like when a 
linux machine fails to boot, it never reads more than a fraction of the 
screen. I've tried the tedious process of moving the phone a little, 
taking another picture, waiting for results, and trying again. 
Eventually you might get enough info that way to figure out what's going 
on. Or maybe not.


The NFB periodically has sales for the knfbReader app. I paid $75 for 
it. It wouldn't be worth that just to read computer screens. It's not 
accurate enough.



On 07/04/2016 11:26 AM, Mark Peveto wrote:

It's not perfect by any means, but brother when you don't have a pair of eyes 
handy it's better than nothin.  I haven't bought knfb yet, although my
fiance, Alicia, has it.

Mark Peveto
Registered Linux user number 600552
Sent from sonar using alpine 2.20.13


On Mon, 4 Jul 2016, John G. Heim wrote:


If you can configure a serial console, you would be able to read those
messages. But I still say it's a process in an uninterrruptable sleep which
means the kernel can't kill it during a normal shutdown. That, in turn,
implies that it is a kernel bug in a device driver. In fact, I will wager it's
the driver for your sound card and the process that is in an uninterruptable
sleep is pulse. That's just a guess though.
If the machine is kind of old, it is very likely to have a serial port. Then
you need another computer and a null modem cable to configure a serial
console.  There is a really good serial console howto on the web. No point in
me reiterating all that. If you have never configured a serial console before,
you are not likely to have a null modem cable lying around. But setting up a
serial console is a valuable skill for a blind linux sysadmin to have. You can
even do a serial console install of VMware ESXI.

PS: Thanks for the tip on tap tap see. I'd never heard of it before. I am
going to try it today. When I need to have a screen read to me by my phone, I
have been using the knfbReader app.

On 07/03/2016 01:08 PM, Mark Peveto wrote:

I've been working on this more today, pulling out all the tools I've got.
To the point i'm using tap tap see to try and get an idea of what's on my
screen when reboot hangs.  The most i can
get  is a message about bus socket display, and a command prompt.
Not real helpful, but I guess it's a start.

Mark Peveto
Registered Linux user number 600552
Sent from sonar using alpine 2.20.13


On Sat, 2 Jul 2016, Tony Baechler wrote:


On 7/2/2016 1:54 AM, Mark Peveto wrote:

The short version of a long story.  I've just installed sonar on a dell
pc.
I've also got it installed on a compaq/hp machine, where the followig
problem doesn't exist.  On the dell, sudo reboot seems to hang.  Sudo
shutdown works fine.  I've tried sudo shutdown -r now, sudo systemctl
reboot, and
other options.  How, without sighted help, can I find out what's causing
this machine to hang when I reboot.  What's strange is this...why does
it
shut
down just fine, but not reboot?

I'm not familiar with Sonar, so consider these random guesses. First, have
you
looked in /var/log/syslog and kern.log? There might be a process not
shutting
down properly. If you halt the system, all processes are killed and all
filesystems are unmounted. A reboot only resets the system, so I suppose
it's
possible that a process is behaving badly or the kernel can't unmount a
filesystem. I see this sometimes with slow USB devices, like if I copy a
ton
of files to my SD card. A more likely explanation is an ACPI or power
management issue. You didn't say how old the machines are, but it could be
a
BIOS bug. Recent kernels should work around this. Without knowing the age
of
the machine and the kernel version, I can only guess.

Also, the machine isn't a laptop, right? Laptops usually have power
management
issues. On Debian, there is a package called acpi-tools. Try installing it
if
it isn't there or purging it if it's there. I have better luck without it
installed. I would bet syslog 

Re: how do I find out what's hanging me up?

[John G. Heim]

If you can configure a serial console, you would be able to read those 
messages. But I still say it's a process in an uninterrruptable sleep 
which means the kernel can't kill it during a normal shutdown. That, in 
turn, implies that it is a kernel bug in a device driver. In fact, I 
will wager it's the driver for your sound card and the process that is 
in an uninterruptable sleep is pulse. That's just a guess though.
If the machine is kind of old, it is very likely to have a serial port. 
Then you need another computer and a null modem cable to configure a 
serial console.  There is a really good serial console howto on the web. 
No point in me reiterating all that. If you have never configured a 
serial console before, you are not likely to have a null modem cable 
lying around. But setting up a serial console is a valuable skill for a 
blind linux sysadmin to have. You can even do a serial console install 
of VMware ESXI.


PS: Thanks for the tip on tap tap see. I'd never heard of it before. I 
am going to try it today. When I need to have a screen read to me by my 
phone, I have been using the knfbReader app.


On 07/03/2016 01:08 PM, Mark Peveto wrote:

I've been working on this more today, pulling out all the tools I've got.  To 
the point i'm using tap tap see to try and get an idea of what's on my screen 
when reboot hangs.  The most i can
get  is a message about bus socket display, and a command prompt.
Not real helpful, but I guess it's a start.

Mark Peveto
Registered Linux user number 600552
Sent from sonar using alpine 2.20.13


On Sat, 2 Jul 2016, Tony Baechler wrote:


On 7/2/2016 1:54 AM, Mark Peveto wrote:

The short version of a long story.  I've just installed sonar on a dell pc.
I've also got it installed on a compaq/hp machine, where the followig
problem doesn't exist.  On the dell, sudo reboot seems to hang.  Sudo
shutdown works fine.  I've tried sudo shutdown -r now, sudo systemctl
reboot, and
other options.  How, without sighted help, can I find out what's causing
this machine to hang when I reboot.  What's strange is this...why does it
shut
down just fine, but not reboot?

I'm not familiar with Sonar, so consider these random guesses. First, have you
looked in /var/log/syslog and kern.log? There might be a process not shutting
down properly. If you halt the system, all processes are killed and all
filesystems are unmounted. A reboot only resets the system, so I suppose it's
possible that a process is behaving badly or the kernel can't unmount a
filesystem. I see this sometimes with slow USB devices, like if I copy a ton
of files to my SD card. A more likely explanation is an ACPI or power
management issue. You didn't say how old the machines are, but it could be a
BIOS bug. Recent kernels should work around this. Without knowing the age of
the machine and the kernel version, I can only guess.

Also, the machine isn't a laptop, right? Laptops usually have power management
issues. On Debian, there is a package called acpi-tools. Try installing it if
it isn't there or purging it if it's there. I have better luck without it
installed. I would bet syslog and kern.log would have clues to your problem. I
would check those first. Make note of the time you reboot the machine and look
at those files with less. You could try booting a live CD to avoid adding all
of the boot messages to the logs. You didn't say if that happens on a live CD,
booting from the hard drive, other distros, etc. I''ve noticed most live CDs
have strange shutdown problems. You might have to pass a parameter on the
kernel command line. Both HP and Dell have issues with Linux.

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Re: how do I find out what's hanging me up?

[John G. Heim]

When the kernel tries to kill a process or unmount a file system, it 
makes a system call which can result in something called an 
"uninterruptable sleep". Processes in an uninterruptable sleep state are 
marked with a D (I think) in the process table. You can see that with ps 
or top. Symptoms of a process in an uninterruptable sleep state are that 
if you do a df or an lsusb, it hangs and you can't even control-c out. 
There might be other ways to get the same result. But try doing a df and 
an lsusb before shutting down and it they hang, you know it's a kernel bug .





On 07/02/2016 03:54 AM, Mark Peveto wrote:

Hi all,
The short version of a long story.  I've just installed sonar on a dell pc.  
I've also got it installed on a compaq/hp machine, where the followig
problem doesn't exist.  On the dell, sudo reboot seems to hang.  Sudo shutdown 
works fine.  I've tried sudo shutdown -r now, sudo systemctl reboot, and
other options.  How, without sighted help, can I find out what's causing this 
machine to hang when I reboot.  What's strange is this...why does it shut
down just fine, but not reboot?

Mark Peveto
Registered Linux user number 600552
Sent from sonar using alpine 2.20.13

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brltty and dracut

[John G Heim]

Has anyone gotten brltty to insert itself into the initrd on debian 
jessie? I have only a virtual machine to try this on but it looks to me 
as if debian switched from initramfs-tools to dracut to build the initrd 
and therefore, brltty can no longer insert itself into the initrd. I 
happen to be working with a debian developer on the scripts to get 
brltty into the initrd via dracut. If we get it working, it might be of 
interest to the brltty developers. I am just wondering if anyone can 
confirm my  assessment of the problem and if anyone has ever had 
personal contact with the brltty developers. I could email them but I 
thought it would be better if I knew exactly who to talk to.


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Re: Looking for a good Linux shop in Madison, Wisconsin

[John G Heim]

I happen to be in Madison and I've already offered to upgrade John's 
machine for him. But there is a really, really good computer repair shop 
in Madison that does linux. It's called Madison Computer Works. I've 
been doing business with them since the mid-90s even before I knew 
anything about linux myself.




On 06/29/2016 10:00 AM, Janina Sajka wrote:

Hi, John:

I agree with your preference for taking your machine to a Linux shop.

However, it's probably not really necessary. Unless you're also asking
them to install software, any competent shop that builds machines to
customer requirements should be able to explore and help with upgrading
your machine with things like more RAM and faster/bigger hard drives.

PS: You should keep in the back of your mind that it might be cheaper to
simply replace, though I would still go with figuring out your
components iteratively and not just buy of the shelf.

For example, I'd want to investigate upgrading to an ePCI hard drive.
They're getting down to the affordable range, at least for the OS
itself.


Good luck, and stay in touch about this. I think a lot of us will be
interested.

Janina

John J. Boyer writes:

My Linux machine needs a new disk drive and a general overhaul. Does
anyone know of a good Linux shop in Madison, Wisconsin?

Thanks,
John

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AbilitiesSoft, Inc.
Email: john.bo...@abilitiessoft.org
Website: http://www.abilitiessoft.org
Status: 501(C)(3) Nonprofit
Location: Madison, Wisconsin USA
Mission: To develop softwares and provide STEM services for people with
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Re: Looking for a good Linux shop in Madison, Wisconsin

[John G Heim]

I am guessing John's problem would be with 2 things. First, he'd want 
linux with braille installed on the new hard drive. Second, he'd want 
his files copied from the old hard drive. Both of those things would 
take some knowledge of linux. Maybe not a lot, but some.




On 06/29/2016 09:37 AM, Mark Peveto wrote:

Hi John,
I don't think you'd need a linux shop specifically, just a good computer store 
that can get you the kind of drive and such.  Check with best buy if you've got 
one close...they can probably get
you headed in the right direction.
Have a good one.

Mark Peveto
Registered Linux user number 600552
Sent from sonar using alpine 2.20.13


On Wed, 29 Jun 2016, John J. Boyer wrote:


My Linux machine needs a new disk drive and a general overhaul. Does
anyone know of a good Linux shop in Madison, Wisconsin?

Thanks,
John

--
John J. Boyer; President,
AbilitiesSoft, Inc.
Email: john.bo...@abilitiessoft.org
Website: http://www.abilitiessoft.org
Status: 501(C)(3) Nonprofit
Location: Madison, Wisconsin USA
Mission: To develop softwares and provide STEM services for people with
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Re: alsa and pulse. is this good or not?

[John G Heim]

I think you should try to narrow it down to a sound or a espeak problem. 
Try playing some wav files to find out if they sound right.




On 06/28/2016 01:10 PM, Kristoffer Gustafsson wrote:

Hi.
after removing  snd-hda-intel and replacing it with my headset it worked.
not good sound quality, is there a way to fix that?
I just ran espeakup and it worked.
/Kristoffer

2016-06-28 19:09 GMT+02:00, Jude DaShiell :

Did you install espeak with all dependencies yet?  If not, do that
first.
Next, sudo systemctl enable espeak.service .
If successful, type:
sudo modprobe speakup_soft .  If successful, type:
espeakup  and see if espeak is willing to talk to you.  If yes,
reboot and see if espeak is still willing to talk to you.  If yes, you
did it.

If I were installing debian myself, I'd use the s boot parameter just
after the beep when the DVD spins up and have espeak talking throughout
the whole installation and after that installation too.

Hope this helps. On Mon, 27 Jun 2016, Kristoffer Gustafsson wrote:


Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 17:39:25
From: Kristoffer Gustafsson 
Reply-To: Linux for blind general discussion 
To: Linux for blind general discussion 
Subject: Re: alsa and pulse. is this good or not?

Hi.
I'm using the latest stable version of debian.
I hope that there is a way to get espeakup to work. I really need
speech in my console.
also I've discovered that I searched wrong when searching for hearing
my microphone some time ago.
I should have searched for "microphone output" + alsa.
that gave me luck.
/Kristoffer

2016-06-27 22:49 GMT+02:00, Mark Peveto :

It may be good information, but I've tried to remove it before, and it
does
cause quite a mess.  If you think you can do it successfully, you can
sure
try, but I'd suggest being careful.

Mark Peveto
Registered Linux user number 600552
Sent from vinux using alpine 2.20.13


On Mon, 27 Jun 2016, Kristoffer Gustafsson wrote:


Hi.
I found information here about removing pulse audio.
http://www.hecticgeek.com/2012/01/how-to-remove-pulseaudio-use-alsa-ubuntu-linux/
is this good or not?
Would this solve all espeakup erros I've got?
I can't get voxin to work on my 64 bit install of debian.
/Kristoffer
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mobil: 0730-500934

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Re: need to skip vinux and install ubuntu

[John G Heim]

If you google "rufus" it comes up first.

I have to say, google is your friend. You can save yourself a heck of a 
lot of frustration by googling everything before asking on an email 
list. It's faster, it's easier, it's more accurate. Well, it's usually 
more accurate. You might have to read more than one page for that.


On 06/08/2016 01:38 PM, Eric Oyen wrote:

ah ok. teaches me not to read the entire thread. :) so, now all I have to do is 
look for it.

-eric

On Jun 8, 2016, at 3:37 AM, Christopher Chaltain wrote:


Rufus is a Windows utility and not a Linux tool. Since Eric is looking to 
create a bootable ISO from Windows or Mac, Rufus should do the trick. Note that 
Unetbootn isn't the only tool that will do the trick. Rufus and other options 
exist, which you can find with Google. BTW, the link for Rufus is 
https://rufus.akeo.ie/

On 08/06/16 04:11, Jude DaShiell wrote:

There is an accessible tool for linux called rufus.

On Wed, 8 Jun 2016, Eric Oyen wrote:


Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 04:50:28
From: Eric Oyen 
Reply-To: Linux for blind general discussion 
To: Linux for blind general discussion 
Subject: Re: need to skip vinux and install ubuntu

hmmm. I wish I could get that far. I have a windows machine (and this
mac), but I can't get either to make a bootable USB stick because the
1 tool needed is bloody inaccessible. the tool is Unetbootn and its
nothing but graphics in windows (tested with 3 screen readers there)
and all but invisible to voiceover on my mac.

now, I have contacted the developer on that project to see if he can
offer a solution. guess I won't know until later this week. In any
case, I am without any means to put linux on a USB stick (and I don't
have media for a DVD either).

-eric

On Jun 8, 2016, at 1:35 AM, Jude DaShiell wrote:


Yes, run the vinux install the way you normally do to start.  There's
going to be a question install this 3rd party software yes/no, answer
that with no and proceed from there.  Then do your updates to the
version of ubuntu you need.

On Tue, 7 Jun 2016, Kristoffer Gustafsson wrote:


Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2016 13:56:49
From: Kristoffer Gustafsson 
Reply-To: Linux for blind general discussion 
To: blinux-list@redhat.com
Subject: need to skip vinux and install ubuntu
Hi.
In order to get my wireless card I need to be running ubuntu 15.10
or later.

How was it with the normal ubuntu?
can I install that by myself too like vinux?
I could skip ubuntu too, and just install debian testing.
what do you think is best? debian testing or installing a ubuntu?
/Kristoffer

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Re: console speech

[John G Heim]

ms a little nuts.  I like vinux, and am using 
it now, but > > > > >  would also like the
> > > > >  opportunity to work with these other distros.  I've been 
able to > > > > > install my favorite programs, but trying to use 
them from a > > > > >  terminal just doesn't read

> > > > >  well, so I need the console.
> > > > >  Oh, and before someone says google it, I've done that 
for a > > > > >  week. Nothing helps.  LOL!

> > > > >  Mark Peveto
> > > > >  Registered Linux user number 600552
> > > > >  Sent from vinux using alpine 2.20.10
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> > > > >  The full disclaimer details can be found at > > > > > 
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> > > > > > > > > >  This message has been scanned for viruses and 
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> > > > >  and is believed to be clean.
> > > > > > > > > >  Please consider the environment before 
printing this email.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
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Re: note on the status of linux-speakup.org

[John G Heim]

Do you have an email contact you can share? I'd like to offer them the 
resources of the International Association of Visually Impaired 
Technologists.




On 04/21/2016 10:44 AM, Chris Brannon wrote:

Hi,
Someone on this list mentioned they were having trouble posting to
the Speakup list.  Yes, the linux-speakup.org site is down.  They're
having some technical difficulties.  I've been told that it will be back
as soon as possible.

Just wanted to keep folks informed.

-- Chris

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ssh (was: web based)

[John G Heim]

The -x flag means that after you log into the remote server, you can run 
X11 apps on the remote machine and have the display appear on your local 
machine.  X11 works by sending instructions to the X11 server on your 
local machine. So when you run an X11 program locally, it's talking to a 
server, an X11 server, on your local machine. The -x flag tells ssh to 
forward those X11 instructions from the remote machine back to the X11 
server on your local machine. Obviously, for this to work, you have to 
have an X11 server running on your local machine.  Those do exist for 
Windows but I know nothing about them. The remote ssh server also has to 
have X11 forwarding enabled.


On 03/31/2016 12:35 PM, Janina Sajka wrote:

I would observe my entire experience of SSH is as a terminal interface.
I am only academically aware there's also the 'ssh -x'
command--academically, because the -x doesn't provide an accessible gui.

If the browser's, web-based ssh accessed something that was actually
accessible, that would be ver big news indeed. But I don't see that on
the horizon, because we already have https for such things. So, the
notion remains academic, imo.

Janina

John G Heim writes:

Right but my point is that all that is is chrome acting as a ssh client.
It's an ssh client with the chrome user interface. Maybe pointing out that
it's not a meaningful distinction is not a meaningful point.  I guess if it
looks like a web-based client, that's all that matters, right? But there is
no such thing as a web-based ssh client. That can't be.


On 03/31/2016 10:38 AM, Chris Brannon wrote:

John G Heim  writes:


How can an ssh client run in a browser? Maybe the ssh client can be
launched by the browser. But it has to establish a connection and talk
to the server via the ssh protocol on port 22.  Ultimately, it's no
different than putty or secureCRT.

Well, the modern web browser is being treated as more of an application
platform than a document viewer these days, and you can run all sorts of
things in them, including ssh clients.  This has been going on for years
with Chrome.  They have something called ssh in a tab, which is an ssh
client running inside the browser.  This is how you use ssh as
a client in ChromeOS, where Chrome is more-or-less the user interface
layer.  I have no idea how accessible "ssh in a tab" is, but considering
just how much I dislike web browsers, I cannot imagine that I would
consider it a pleasant experience.  Anyway, to each their own.  I seem
to recall that "ssh in a tab" is implemented as a browser extension.
Some quick googling reveals something called FireSSH, which is an ssh
client written entirely in JavaScript, supporting both Mozilla Firefox
and Google Chrome.

The difference between this kind of thing and native applications
like Putty and SecureCRT is that the browser-based thing is
cross-platform.

-- Chris

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Re: web based ssh?

[John G Heim]

Right but my point is that all that is is chrome acting as a ssh 
client.  It's an ssh client with the chrome user interface. Maybe 
pointing out that it's not a meaningful distinction is not a meaningful 
point.  I guess if it looks like a web-based client, that's all that 
matters, right? But there is no such thing as a web-based ssh client. 
That can't be.



On 03/31/2016 10:38 AM, Chris Brannon wrote:

John G Heim  writes:


How can an ssh client run in a browser? Maybe the ssh client can be
launched by the browser. But it has to establish a connection and talk
to the server via the ssh protocol on port 22.  Ultimately, it's no
different than putty or secureCRT.

Well, the modern web browser is being treated as more of an application
platform than a document viewer these days, and you can run all sorts of
things in them, including ssh clients.  This has been going on for years
with Chrome.  They have something called ssh in a tab, which is an ssh
client running inside the browser.  This is how you use ssh as
a client in ChromeOS, where Chrome is more-or-less the user interface
layer.  I have no idea how accessible "ssh in a tab" is, but considering
just how much I dislike web browsers, I cannot imagine that I would
consider it a pleasant experience.  Anyway, to each their own.  I seem
to recall that "ssh in a tab" is implemented as a browser extension.
Some quick googling reveals something called FireSSH, which is an ssh
client written entirely in JavaScript, supporting both Mozilla Firefox
and Google Chrome.

The difference between this kind of thing and native applications
like Putty and SecureCRT is that the browser-based thing is
cross-platform.

-- Chris

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Re: web based ssh?

[John G Heim]

How can an ssh client run in a browser? Maybe the ssh client can be 
launched by the browser. But it has to establish a connection and talk 
to the server via the ssh protocol on port 22.  Ultimately, it's no 
different than putty or secureCRT.



On 03/31/2016 03:11 AM, Henry Yen wrote:

On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 07:31:38AM -0700, Hank Smith, and Seeing-eye dog Iona 
wrote:

Hello any one know of a blind friendly web based ssh client that I can
access from with in windows?

There are a couple of java ssh clients that run in most modern web browsers.
Mindterm (now from cryptzone.com) is/was a very popular one.

I don't know if mindterm is blind-friendly (although the cryptzone website
explicitly claims 508 compliance, which is quite unusual).

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Re: Debian installers.

[John G Heim]

Did you find the instructions for an accessible debian install?  I 
switched to ubuntu about 6 months ago and I have not installed debian 
jessie. But I think all you have to do is keep pressing the s key as it 
boots. When I was using debian, I did several installs a week and I 
learned that the timing isn't critical.  You can just keep pressing the 
s  key until it starts talking. Of course, you have to have a working 
sound card and speakers for it to work.





On 03/02/2016 02:58 PM, Anders Holmberg wrote:

Hi!
Certainly mate.
I realized that when i put my self to sleep so now i have downloaded Jessie net 
installer.
Haven’t tried it yet but do hope that i wont get step installer failed.
/A

2 mars 2016 kl. 00:36 skrev Tim Chase :

On March  2, 2016, Anders Holmberg wrote:

what is the nitinstaller?

Spelling it correctly will likely help you find the documentation you
need.  It's a "net" installer, as in a minimal boot image that
boot-straps you into the installer.  From there, it downloads the
rest of the bits that it needs over the network (thus
"net-installer").  This is the way I usually install Debian, as it
only downloads the packages I request, rather than downloading a
large install image that may include things that I don't need/want.

-tim



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