Re: Orca & tbird issues
Thanks Christopher. And, I suppose I should add that the mutt bug re home and end has been squashed, and the expected behavior of those keys is function again as expected. Janina Christopher Chaltain writes: > Thunderbird has control+r for reply to sender, control+shift+r for reply to > all and control+shift+l for reply to list. > > On 10/11/16 08:36, Janina Sajka wrote: > > I just don't see any good reason for running a client like mutt in a gui > > terminal with Orca. Yes, from the "let's get everything working like it > > should" perspective, we need good performance and good behavior in gui > > terminals, but mutt just runs so well in a console terminal (think > > screen) with Speakup, that I just don't worry my poor little head over > > the gui terminal. > > > > It's rather interesting, though, that similar issues can sometimes crop > > up in the console environment. I've recently been running Fedora 25 > > pre-release mutt v. 1.7.1 as my client, and I occasionally run into > > focus problems, meaning that what Speakup's Keypad 8 will say is one off > > from the actual selection. Usually the screen Ctrl+l "redraw the screen" > > command fixes that. > > > > Until the last mutt update there was a more annoying issue for me where > > Home and End didn't work to take you to the top or bottom of the index > > list. It was a bug, and I'm so glad it's now squashed. > > > > As for replying to the wrong person, that just happens if one isn't > > careful to observe the header data before sending. You don't need to be > > blind and using a screen reader to exhibit that behavior. I see the very > > same thing every so often from the very smart teckies on my various W3C > > lists, most of who are perfectly able bodied. > > > > Mutt does have one command I absolutely love, and I wonder whether the > > gui clients have something similar. There's the usual 'r' for reply to > > the sender, and 'g' for reply to all, but I particularly appreciate > > Shift+L for "reply only to the lists, and not the individuals." > > > > I must confess, though, that I'm impressed that people have found a > > browser interface to email fully usable. To me this suggests that > > familiarity with the particular environment is still the most important > > factor for success with whatever one chooses to use. > > > > Janina > > > > Tim Chase writes: > > > On November 9, 2016, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote: > > > > Personally, I've never seen the point of e-mail clients and have > > > > always used a web browser to check my e-mail. > > > > > > I think the big advantage is off-line usage. If you are connected > > > all the time and have dual-mode access for redundancy (say, a home > > > internet/wifi connection, and a 4G aircard), and don't roam much, > > > then a web-based mail client solves a lot of problems. But when > > > internet access is spotty or unreliable, it's nice to have full > > > access to your email offline. Fortunately, there are lots of > > > options, both within the GUI with varying degrees of accessibility > > > (Thunderbird, Kmail, Claws Mail, and Evolution come to mind) and > > > within the terminal (mutt and alpine being the dominant players, but > > > "alot" and mailx/heirloom mailx also come to mind as well as several > > > available within emacs). > > > > > > -tim > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > Blinux-list mailing list > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > -- > Christopher (CJ) > chaltain at Gmail > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200 sip:jan...@asterisk.rednote.net Email: jan...@rednote.net Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: mutt indexing (was Re: Orca & tbird issues)
Aha, very excellent, and hearty congratulations to you! A tad early, but deserved I'm sure! Since people like to give graduates advice, it'll my two cents based on this topic. Dump the Amazon stuff, just as you said. If you ever need that, Amazon has your data under your account. But, do come up for a plan for the work related stuff atleast, and maybe some of the truly personal stuff, too. You'll likely find the work related archive will prove helpful in ways you can't forsee. Janina Jeffery Mewtamer writes: > For what it's worth, I'm a Computer Science undergrad, though I > graduate in less than a month. > > On 11/13/16, John G. Heim wrote: > > I take it your job doesn't require you to read & respond to email. There > > are many reasons you might need to find a message from years ago if > > email is a big part of your job. I save almost everything I send but > > only a fraction of what I receive. Even so, the archive for each year's > > email is sometimes many thousands of messages. > > > > > > > > On 11/12/2016 09:57 AM, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote: > >> I'm honestly surprised at the e-mail backlogs some list members > >> maintain. I personally find it annoying when an e-mail gives me reason > >> to hold on to it longer than the time it takes to read, and if > >> appropriate, reply, and even among messages that land in my inbox and > >> don't get marked as spam, there are many I delete without reading > >> beyond the subject line(order confirmations and shipment notices from > >> Amazon being a prime example). > >> > > > > ___ > > Blinux-list mailing list > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > -- > Sincerely, > > Jeffery Wright > President Emeritus, Nu Nu Chapter, Phi Theta Kappa. > Former Secretary, Student Government Association, College of the Albemarle. > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200 sip:jan...@asterisk.rednote.net Email: jan...@rednote.net Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: mutt indexing (was Re: Orca & tbird issues)
I do see how it can seem a waste, and I try not to keep the obvious junk. But, there's also substance among those emails, and sometimes work related questions arise where it proves helpful to search back in the record. Fortunately, hard drive space is reasonably affordable. Janina Jeffery Mewtamer writes: > I'm honestly surprised at the e-mail backlogs some list members > maintain. I personally find it annoying when an e-mail gives me reason > to hold on to it longer than the time it takes to read, and if > appropriate, reply, and even among messages that land in my inbox and > don't get marked as spam, there are many I delete without reading > beyond the subject line(order confirmations and shipment notices from > Amazon being a prime example). > > -- > Sincerely, > > Jeffery Wright > President Emeritus, Nu Nu Chapter, Phi Theta Kappa. > Former Secretary, Student Government Association, College of the Albemarle. > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200 sip:jan...@asterisk.rednote.net Email: jan...@rednote.net Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca & tbird issues
Thunderbird has control+r for reply to sender, control+shift+r for reply to all and control+shift+l for reply to list. On 10/11/16 08:36, Janina Sajka wrote: I just don't see any good reason for running a client like mutt in a gui terminal with Orca. Yes, from the "let's get everything working like it should" perspective, we need good performance and good behavior in gui terminals, but mutt just runs so well in a console terminal (think screen) with Speakup, that I just don't worry my poor little head over the gui terminal. It's rather interesting, though, that similar issues can sometimes crop up in the console environment. I've recently been running Fedora 25 pre-release mutt v. 1.7.1 as my client, and I occasionally run into focus problems, meaning that what Speakup's Keypad 8 will say is one off from the actual selection. Usually the screen Ctrl+l "redraw the screen" command fixes that. Until the last mutt update there was a more annoying issue for me where Home and End didn't work to take you to the top or bottom of the index list. It was a bug, and I'm so glad it's now squashed. As for replying to the wrong person, that just happens if one isn't careful to observe the header data before sending. You don't need to be blind and using a screen reader to exhibit that behavior. I see the very same thing every so often from the very smart teckies on my various W3C lists, most of who are perfectly able bodied. Mutt does have one command I absolutely love, and I wonder whether the gui clients have something similar. There's the usual 'r' for reply to the sender, and 'g' for reply to all, but I particularly appreciate Shift+L for "reply only to the lists, and not the individuals." I must confess, though, that I'm impressed that people have found a browser interface to email fully usable. To me this suggests that familiarity with the particular environment is still the most important factor for success with whatever one chooses to use. Janina Tim Chase writes: On November 9, 2016, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote: Personally, I've never seen the point of e-mail clients and have always used a web browser to check my e-mail. I think the big advantage is off-line usage. If you are connected all the time and have dual-mode access for redundancy (say, a home internet/wifi connection, and a 4G aircard), and don't roam much, then a web-based mail client solves a lot of problems. But when internet access is spotty or unreliable, it's nice to have full access to your email offline. Fortunately, there are lots of options, both within the GUI with varying degrees of accessibility (Thunderbird, Kmail, Claws Mail, and Evolution come to mind) and within the terminal (mutt and alpine being the dominant players, but "alot" and mailx/heirloom mailx also come to mind as well as several available within emacs). -tim ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- Christopher (CJ) chaltain at Gmail ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: mutt indexing (was Re: Orca & tbird issues)
For what it's worth, I'm a Computer Science undergrad, though I graduate in less than a month. On 11/13/16, John G. Heim wrote: > I take it your job doesn't require you to read & respond to email. There > are many reasons you might need to find a message from years ago if > email is a big part of your job. I save almost everything I send but > only a fraction of what I receive. Even so, the archive for each year's > email is sometimes many thousands of messages. > > > > On 11/12/2016 09:57 AM, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote: >> I'm honestly surprised at the e-mail backlogs some list members >> maintain. I personally find it annoying when an e-mail gives me reason >> to hold on to it longer than the time it takes to read, and if >> appropriate, reply, and even among messages that land in my inbox and >> don't get marked as spam, there are many I delete without reading >> beyond the subject line(order confirmations and shipment notices from >> Amazon being a prime example). >> > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > -- Sincerely, Jeffery Wright President Emeritus, Nu Nu Chapter, Phi Theta Kappa. Former Secretary, Student Government Association, College of the Albemarle. ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: mutt indexing (was Re: Orca & tbird issues)
I take it your job doesn't require you to read & respond to email. There are many reasons you might need to find a message from years ago if email is a big part of your job. I save almost everything I send but only a fraction of what I receive. Even so, the archive for each year's email is sometimes many thousands of messages. On 11/12/2016 09:57 AM, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote: I'm honestly surprised at the e-mail backlogs some list members maintain. I personally find it annoying when an e-mail gives me reason to hold on to it longer than the time it takes to read, and if appropriate, reply, and even among messages that land in my inbox and don't get marked as spam, there are many I delete without reading beyond the subject line(order confirmations and shipment notices from Amazon being a prime example). ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: mutt indexing (was Re: Orca & tbird issues)
I'm honestly surprised at the e-mail backlogs some list members maintain. I personally find it annoying when an e-mail gives me reason to hold on to it longer than the time it takes to read, and if appropriate, reply, and even among messages that land in my inbox and don't get marked as spam, there are many I delete without reading beyond the subject line(order confirmations and shipment notices from Amazon being a prime example). -- Sincerely, Jeffery Wright President Emeritus, Nu Nu Chapter, Phi Theta Kappa. Former Secretary, Student Government Association, College of the Albemarle. ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: mutt indexing (was Re: Orca & tbird issues)
Joel, All: Fwiw, I would agree a minute is too long. I have some large mbox files, but my worst searches generally complete in less than 20 seconds or so. Fwiw, my inbox is saved off to a "saved" mbox every month. In addition I have a lot of subject/worktask mbox files populated by using procmail sorting, so a a majority of my mail actually never hits the inbox, e.g. mail from this list never hits my inbox. Additionally, all my mboxes live in yearly folders, e.g. 13, 14, 15, 16, and soon 17. I avoid needing to change my procmail rules by using a symbolic link called "current" to point to the current year, and all the mbox files that are consistent year to year have symbolic links pointing into those folders, e.g. current/linux. I have a bash script that I run each New Year's Eve at midnight using at that mediates the change over. I have to do just a little prep work every year to prepare for the turnover, i.e. touch the mbox file names in the new year's folder. Also, I find using the online mutt documentation much easier to work with than the builtin F1 interface: http://www.mutt.org You're correct that the tilde limiters are not themselves regular expressions, but they can be used in usual boulian logic patterns. So, rather than keep an old cheat sheet, I'd prefer to use a bookmark to the current doc which is: http://www.mutt.org/doc/manual/ The key to effectively using mutt as a blind user, imo, is getting your configuration file setup working the way you want your mail handling to work. There are some essential settings, imo, such as: set arrow_cursor# use -> instead of hiliting the whole line Then there are the personal preference settings, such as deciding which headers you want to see and what editor you want to use writing messages. Because it's only a mua, you get to personalize your editor of choice and your mta of choice. And via mailcap you get to view all manner of attachments you recieve such as docx and pdf files without leaving mutt. Every few years I look at other email clients, but I've yet to be persuaded either by features or by performance to switch. I'm a happy mutt user for the forseeable future. Janina Joel Roth writes: > I'm okay with regular expressions! It was the mutt command > syntax, something like ~(~b) that bothered me. > > FWIW here is the cheat sheet sent me years ago by Bob Proulx, > (found by keyword search using mu) > > ---quote-- > With mutt these types of things are very easy. I use > 'limit' and searching all of the time. Press F1 for the > manual and look at section "3. Patterns: Searching, > Limiting". > > I keep three months of mailing list history in my mailbox. I have a > cron that deletes messages older than 90 days. Anything older than > this and I need to resort to searching the web archive. > > I press: > > # l for limit > # ~(...) to include the entire thread around the match > # ~b to search the body of the message > l ~(~b skype) > # wait a few moments while it spins through the mailbox > # it takes a minute on my machine > # produces a subset of the mailbox with every thread that mentions > # skype in the body > # count the threads > # collapse all threads to just the single subject lines > ESC V > # read the number of of threads from mutt's status bar > Mutt: =Lists/debian/user [Msgs:28/6539 New:2 Old:9 Post:54 Inc:56 39M > # 28 threads mentioning skype out of 6539 messages in the last three months > > > > Janina Sajka wrote: > > The syntax is worth learning because it's common across Linux > > applications and the command line. It's generally known as "regular > > expressions." So, when you learn it, you've got a tool to use in many > > circumstances. > > > > Joel Roth writes: > > > I was put off the built-in searching by the slowness of my > > > spinning rust media at the time. Having SSD could help, > > > as well as learning the syntax ;-) > > > > > > Janina Sajka wrote: > > > > True. But it also provides full search capibilities, including all the > > > > standard operators like and and not, and all the grouping and piping > > > > functions. And, it provides the ability to limit each such statement to > > > > a particular aspect of the mail being searched. I like that a lot, and > > > > use it all the time. > > > > > > > > Joel Roth writes: > > > > > Most email clients have built-in search, however mutt > > > > > requires an external indexer. I've done well with mu. It > > > > > integrates by mapping search to one key (e.g. F8), you input > > > > > text and ENTER, then hit another key (e.g. F9) to view search > > > > > result. Takes one more keystroke than I'd like, but works > > > > > okay. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.djcbsoftware.nl/code/mu/ > > > > > > > > > > Janina Sajka wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Mutt does have one command I absolutely love, and I wonder whether > > > > > > the > > > > > > gui clients have something similar. There's the usual 'r' for re
Re: mutt indexing (was Re: Orca & tbird issues)
I'm okay with regular expressions! It was the mutt command syntax, something like ~(~b) that bothered me. FWIW here is the cheat sheet sent me years ago by Bob Proulx, (found by keyword search using mu) ---quote-- With mutt these types of things are very easy. I use 'limit' and searching all of the time. Press F1 for the manual and look at section "3. Patterns: Searching, Limiting". I keep three months of mailing list history in my mailbox. I have a cron that deletes messages older than 90 days. Anything older than this and I need to resort to searching the web archive. I press: # l for limit # ~(...) to include the entire thread around the match # ~b to search the body of the message l ~(~b skype) # wait a few moments while it spins through the mailbox # it takes a minute on my machine # produces a subset of the mailbox with every thread that mentions # skype in the body # count the threads # collapse all threads to just the single subject lines ESC V # read the number of of threads from mutt's status bar Mutt: =Lists/debian/user [Msgs:28/6539 New:2 Old:9 Post:54 Inc:56 39M # 28 threads mentioning skype out of 6539 messages in the last three months Janina Sajka wrote: > The syntax is worth learning because it's common across Linux > applications and the command line. It's generally known as "regular > expressions." So, when you learn it, you've got a tool to use in many > circumstances. > > Joel Roth writes: > > I was put off the built-in searching by the slowness of my > > spinning rust media at the time. Having SSD could help, > > as well as learning the syntax ;-) > > > > Janina Sajka wrote: > > > True. But it also provides full search capibilities, including all the > > > standard operators like and and not, and all the grouping and piping > > > functions. And, it provides the ability to limit each such statement to > > > a particular aspect of the mail being searched. I like that a lot, and > > > use it all the time. > > > > > > Joel Roth writes: > > > > Most email clients have built-in search, however mutt > > > > requires an external indexer. I've done well with mu. It > > > > integrates by mapping search to one key (e.g. F8), you input > > > > text and ENTER, then hit another key (e.g. F9) to view search > > > > result. Takes one more keystroke than I'd like, but works > > > > okay. > > > > > > > > http://www.djcbsoftware.nl/code/mu/ > > > > > > > > Janina Sajka wrote: > > > > > > > > > Mutt does have one command I absolutely love, and I wonder whether the > > > > > gui clients have something similar. There's the usual 'r' for reply to > > > > > the sender, and 'g' for reply to all, but I particularly appreciate > > > > > Shift+L for "reply only to the lists, and not the individuals." > > > > > > > > > > I must confess, though, that I'm impressed that people have found a > > > > > browser interface to email fully usable. To me this suggests that > > > > > familiarity with the particular environment is still the most > > > > > important > > > > > factor for success with whatever one chooses to use. > > > > > > > > > > Janina > > > > > > > > > > Tim Chase writes: > > > > > > On November 9, 2016, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote: > > > > > > > Personally, I've never seen the point of e-mail clients and have > > > > > > > always used a web browser to check my e-mail. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the big advantage is off-line usage. If you are connected > > > > > > all the time and have dual-mode access for redundancy (say, a home > > > > > > internet/wifi connection, and a 4G aircard), and don't roam much, > > > > > > then a web-based mail client solves a lot of problems. But when > > > > > > internet access is spotty or unreliable, it's nice to have full > > > > > > access to your email offline. Fortunately, there are lots of > > > > > > options, both within the GUI with varying degrees of accessibility > > > > > > (Thunderbird, Kmail, Claws Mail, and Evolution come to mind) and > > > > > > within the terminal (mutt and alpine being the dominant players, but > > > > > > "alot" and mailx/heirloom mailx also come to mind as well as several > > > > > > available within emacs). > > > > > > > > > > > > -tim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > > > Blinux-list mailing list > > > > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200 > > > > > sip:jan...@asterisk.rednote.net > > > > > Email: jan...@rednote.net > > > > > > > > > > Linux Foundation Fellow > > > > > Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org > > > > > > > > > > The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative > > > > > (WAI) > > > > > Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures > > > > > http://www.w3.org/wai/apa > > > > > > > >
Re: mutt indexing (was Re: Orca & tbird issues)
Yeah, I looked at notmuch, but I'm still mbox and prefer to stay with it. So, I stopped when I still the maildir requirement. Tim Chase writes: > On November 11, 2016, Joel Roth wrote: > > I was put off the built-in searching by the slowness of my > > spinning rust media at the time. Having SSD could help, > > as well as learning the syntax ;-) > > I've used "notmuch" as my external indexer. While the initial > indexing can take a while (and a bit of time updating the index > to integrate new mail), subsequent searching is blindingly fast. > > There's a mutt integration that creates a virtual Maildir box into > which searches link all their results. The syntax is pretty easy to > pick up, and has full boolean-query support as well as limiting terms > to particular locations (headers or the body, as well as tags). > > I like it enough that I've been trying to migrate to "alot" which is > notmuch-specific mail interface. The search and tagging feels like > the power of Google while keeping the mail-store local. > > -tim > > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200 sip:jan...@asterisk.rednote.net Email: jan...@rednote.net Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: mutt indexing (was Re: Orca & tbird issues)
The syntax is worth learning because it's common across Linux applications and the command line. It's generally known as "regular expressions." So, when you learn it, you've got a tool to use in many circumstances. Joel Roth writes: > I was put off the built-in searching by the slowness of my > spinning rust media at the time. Having SSD could help, > as well as learning the syntax ;-) > > Janina Sajka wrote: > > True. But it also provides full search capibilities, including all the > > standard operators like and and not, and all the grouping and piping > > functions. And, it provides the ability to limit each such statement to > > a particular aspect of the mail being searched. I like that a lot, and > > use it all the time. > > > > Joel Roth writes: > > > Most email clients have built-in search, however mutt > > > requires an external indexer. I've done well with mu. It > > > integrates by mapping search to one key (e.g. F8), you input > > > text and ENTER, then hit another key (e.g. F9) to view search > > > result. Takes one more keystroke than I'd like, but works > > > okay. > > > > > > http://www.djcbsoftware.nl/code/mu/ > > > > > > Janina Sajka wrote: > > > > > > > Mutt does have one command I absolutely love, and I wonder whether the > > > > gui clients have something similar. There's the usual 'r' for reply to > > > > the sender, and 'g' for reply to all, but I particularly appreciate > > > > Shift+L for "reply only to the lists, and not the individuals." > > > > > > > > I must confess, though, that I'm impressed that people have found a > > > > browser interface to email fully usable. To me this suggests that > > > > familiarity with the particular environment is still the most important > > > > factor for success with whatever one chooses to use. > > > > > > > > Janina > > > > > > > > Tim Chase writes: > > > > > On November 9, 2016, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote: > > > > > > Personally, I've never seen the point of e-mail clients and have > > > > > > always used a web browser to check my e-mail. > > > > > > > > > > I think the big advantage is off-line usage. If you are connected > > > > > all the time and have dual-mode access for redundancy (say, a home > > > > > internet/wifi connection, and a 4G aircard), and don't roam much, > > > > > then a web-based mail client solves a lot of problems. But when > > > > > internet access is spotty or unreliable, it's nice to have full > > > > > access to your email offline. Fortunately, there are lots of > > > > > options, both within the GUI with varying degrees of accessibility > > > > > (Thunderbird, Kmail, Claws Mail, and Evolution come to mind) and > > > > > within the terminal (mutt and alpine being the dominant players, but > > > > > "alot" and mailx/heirloom mailx also come to mind as well as several > > > > > available within emacs). > > > > > > > > > > -tim > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > > Blinux-list mailing list > > > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200 > > > > sip:jan...@asterisk.rednote.net > > > > Email: jan...@rednote.net > > > > > > > > Linux Foundation Fellow > > > > Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org > > > > > > > > The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) > > > > Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures > > > > http://www.w3.org/wai/apa > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > Blinux-list mailing list > > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > -- > > > Joel Roth > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > Blinux-list mailing list > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > -- > > > > Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200 > > sip:jan...@asterisk.rednote.net > > Email: jan...@rednote.net > > > > Linux Foundation Fellow > > Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org > > > > The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) > > Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa > > > > -- > Joel Roth > > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200 sip:jan...@asterisk.rednote.net Email: jan...@rednote.net Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa ___
Re: mutt indexing (was Re: Orca & tbird issues)
On November 11, 2016, Joel Roth wrote: > I was put off the built-in searching by the slowness of my > spinning rust media at the time. Having SSD could help, > as well as learning the syntax ;-) I've used "notmuch" as my external indexer. While the initial indexing can take a while (and a bit of time updating the index to integrate new mail), subsequent searching is blindingly fast. There's a mutt integration that creates a virtual Maildir box into which searches link all their results. The syntax is pretty easy to pick up, and has full boolean-query support as well as limiting terms to particular locations (headers or the body, as well as tags). I like it enough that I've been trying to migrate to "alot" which is notmuch-specific mail interface. The search and tagging feels like the power of Google while keeping the mail-store local. -tim ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: mutt indexing (was Re: Orca & tbird issues)
I was put off the built-in searching by the slowness of my spinning rust media at the time. Having SSD could help, as well as learning the syntax ;-) Janina Sajka wrote: > True. But it also provides full search capibilities, including all the > standard operators like and and not, and all the grouping and piping > functions. And, it provides the ability to limit each such statement to > a particular aspect of the mail being searched. I like that a lot, and > use it all the time. > > Joel Roth writes: > > Most email clients have built-in search, however mutt > > requires an external indexer. I've done well with mu. It > > integrates by mapping search to one key (e.g. F8), you input > > text and ENTER, then hit another key (e.g. F9) to view search > > result. Takes one more keystroke than I'd like, but works > > okay. > > > > http://www.djcbsoftware.nl/code/mu/ > > > > Janina Sajka wrote: > > > > > Mutt does have one command I absolutely love, and I wonder whether the > > > gui clients have something similar. There's the usual 'r' for reply to > > > the sender, and 'g' for reply to all, but I particularly appreciate > > > Shift+L for "reply only to the lists, and not the individuals." > > > > > > I must confess, though, that I'm impressed that people have found a > > > browser interface to email fully usable. To me this suggests that > > > familiarity with the particular environment is still the most important > > > factor for success with whatever one chooses to use. > > > > > > Janina > > > > > > Tim Chase writes: > > > > On November 9, 2016, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote: > > > > > Personally, I've never seen the point of e-mail clients and have > > > > > always used a web browser to check my e-mail. > > > > > > > > I think the big advantage is off-line usage. If you are connected > > > > all the time and have dual-mode access for redundancy (say, a home > > > > internet/wifi connection, and a 4G aircard), and don't roam much, > > > > then a web-based mail client solves a lot of problems. But when > > > > internet access is spotty or unreliable, it's nice to have full > > > > access to your email offline. Fortunately, there are lots of > > > > options, both within the GUI with varying degrees of accessibility > > > > (Thunderbird, Kmail, Claws Mail, and Evolution come to mind) and > > > > within the terminal (mutt and alpine being the dominant players, but > > > > "alot" and mailx/heirloom mailx also come to mind as well as several > > > > available within emacs). > > > > > > > > -tim > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > Blinux-list mailing list > > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200 > > > sip:jan...@asterisk.rednote.net > > > Email: jan...@rednote.net > > > > > > Linux Foundation Fellow > > > Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org > > > > > > The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) > > > Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures http://www.w3.org/wai/apa > > > > > > ___ > > > Blinux-list mailing list > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > -- > > Joel Roth > > > > > > ___ > > Blinux-list mailing list > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > -- > > Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200 > sip:jan...@asterisk.rednote.net > Email: jan...@rednote.net > > Linux Foundation Fellow > Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org > > The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) > Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures http://www.w3.org/wai/apa > -- Joel Roth ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca & tbird issues
Last time I tried Claws-mail, it didn't work with Orca. I think it was about a month ago that I last tried it, but then again, my result was the same as when I tried it probably 3 or 4 years ago, so my best guess is that either the devs are not aware that there is a problem, or they don't know how to fix it. The problem with gtk accessibility is that everything can look right, but things still tend to go wrong, and having personally dug into some gtk code that should have worked but was going wrong, it can be near impossible to file bug reports to try to make devs aware of these problems, and it can even be quite difficult at times to know who should get the bug report, at-spi, Orca, gtk/atk or the application itself. Many times I just put a bug report here and hope the right person eventually sees it. There also may be some newer documentation needed for how to make accessible gtk code work correctly with Orca/at-spi, as I have read some reports of that documentation needing an update, but many of us don't know things well enough at the code level to update it. All this said, I wonder how beneficial it may be to have an automated test that devs could use to try to help determine how accessible their applications are and where they can improve. Perhaps it could catch things like custom widgets with no accessible role/label, an unspoken list such as a message list in a mail client or a control that can't be tab focused. Just a thought, but maybe it could work at least a little, if something like this doesn't already exist. I know that we have applications that can let someone know what is being spoken by Orca, but an automated test, although it has the potential to completely blow up over a false positive, maybe still could help. Just a thought. Sent from Baltimore ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: mutt indexing (was Re: Orca & tbird issues)
True. But it also provides full search capibilities, including all the standard operators like and and not, and all the grouping and piping functions. And, it provides the ability to limit each such statement to a particular aspect of the mail being searched. I like that a lot, and use it all the time. Joel Roth writes: > Most email clients have built-in search, however mutt > requires an external indexer. I've done well with mu. It > integrates by mapping search to one key (e.g. F8), you input > text and ENTER, then hit another key (e.g. F9) to view search > result. Takes one more keystroke than I'd like, but works > okay. > > http://www.djcbsoftware.nl/code/mu/ > > Janina Sajka wrote: > > > Mutt does have one command I absolutely love, and I wonder whether the > > gui clients have something similar. There's the usual 'r' for reply to > > the sender, and 'g' for reply to all, but I particularly appreciate > > Shift+L for "reply only to the lists, and not the individuals." > > > > I must confess, though, that I'm impressed that people have found a > > browser interface to email fully usable. To me this suggests that > > familiarity with the particular environment is still the most important > > factor for success with whatever one chooses to use. > > > > Janina > > > > Tim Chase writes: > > > On November 9, 2016, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote: > > > > Personally, I've never seen the point of e-mail clients and have > > > > always used a web browser to check my e-mail. > > > > > > I think the big advantage is off-line usage. If you are connected > > > all the time and have dual-mode access for redundancy (say, a home > > > internet/wifi connection, and a 4G aircard), and don't roam much, > > > then a web-based mail client solves a lot of problems. But when > > > internet access is spotty or unreliable, it's nice to have full > > > access to your email offline. Fortunately, there are lots of > > > options, both within the GUI with varying degrees of accessibility > > > (Thunderbird, Kmail, Claws Mail, and Evolution come to mind) and > > > within the terminal (mutt and alpine being the dominant players, but > > > "alot" and mailx/heirloom mailx also come to mind as well as several > > > available within emacs). > > > > > > -tim > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > Blinux-list mailing list > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > -- > > > > Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200 > > sip:jan...@asterisk.rednote.net > > Email: jan...@rednote.net > > > > Linux Foundation Fellow > > Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org > > > > The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) > > Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa > > > > ___ > > Blinux-list mailing list > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > -- > Joel Roth > > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200 sip:jan...@asterisk.rednote.net Email: jan...@rednote.net Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca & tbird issues
Sticking to the familiar makes a ton of sense. Switching is hard work, because learning the new tool is hard work. Years, many years ago I used pine as my tool. I finally left it for mutt for one simple reason--I could delete an entire thread of email with a single keystroke action. In pine that was 4 distinct actions, as I recall. I was miserable for the first couple months of using mutt, but I'm very glad I switched. Janina John G Heim writes: > There is a reason why apps like Thunderbird and Microsoft Office are so > popular. They are easy and efficient. Thunderbird worked pretty well with > orca for many years. I'm not going to change email clients every time some > bug develops. I'd go crazy. These bugs are enough to make me change > eventually. But I have hopes they'll be fixed. > > > > > On 11/10/2016 08:36 AM, Janina Sajka wrote: > > I just don't see any good reason for running a client like mutt in a gui > > terminal with Orca. Yes, from the "let's get everything working like it > > should" perspective, we need good performance and good behavior in gui > > terminals, but mutt just runs so well in a console terminal (think > > screen) with Speakup, that I just don't worry my poor little head over > > the gui terminal. > > > > It's rather interesting, though, that similar issues can sometimes crop > > up in the console environment. I've recently been running Fedora 25 > > pre-release mutt v. 1.7.1 as my client, and I occasionally run into > > focus problems, meaning that what Speakup's Keypad 8 will say is one off > > from the actual selection. Usually the screen Ctrl+l "redraw the screen" > > command fixes that. > > > > Until the last mutt update there was a more annoying issue for me where > > Home and End didn't work to take you to the top or bottom of the index > > list. It was a bug, and I'm so glad it's now squashed. > > > > As for replying to the wrong person, that just happens if one isn't > > careful to observe the header data before sending. You don't need to be > > blind and using a screen reader to exhibit that behavior. I see the very > > same thing every so often from the very smart teckies on my various W3C > > lists, most of who are perfectly able bodied. > > > > Mutt does have one command I absolutely love, and I wonder whether the > > gui clients have something similar. There's the usual 'r' for reply to > > the sender, and 'g' for reply to all, but I particularly appreciate > > Shift+L for "reply only to the lists, and not the individuals." > > > > I must confess, though, that I'm impressed that people have found a > > browser interface to email fully usable. To me this suggests that > > familiarity with the particular environment is still the most important > > factor for success with whatever one chooses to use. > > > > Janina > > > > Tim Chase writes: > > > On November 9, 2016, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote: > > > > Personally, I've never seen the point of e-mail clients and have > > > > always used a web browser to check my e-mail. > > > I think the big advantage is off-line usage. If you are connected > > > all the time and have dual-mode access for redundancy (say, a home > > > internet/wifi connection, and a 4G aircard), and don't roam much, > > > then a web-based mail client solves a lot of problems. But when > > > internet access is spotty or unreliable, it's nice to have full > > > access to your email offline. Fortunately, there are lots of > > > options, both within the GUI with varying degrees of accessibility > > > (Thunderbird, Kmail, Claws Mail, and Evolution come to mind) and > > > within the terminal (mutt and alpine being the dominant players, but > > > "alot" and mailx/heirloom mailx also come to mind as well as several > > > available within emacs). > > > > > > -tim > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > Blinux-list mailing list > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > -- > -- > John G. Heim; jh...@math.wisc.edu; sip://jh...@sip.linphone.org > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200 sip:jan...@asterisk.rednote.net Email: jan...@rednote.net Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca & tbird issues
Don't confuse Speakup and Espeak, and espeakup. These are three separate packages that perform three related, but separate functions. Example: You can use Speakup with other TTS engines, like the ones that Windows people call Eloquence. Having said that, I would suggest your problem is one of familiarity with the screen reader. There's no reason to have the problem you're experiencing with Speakup. You have much much more control over what is, and isn't spoken by Speakup, though the control is not object based as it is with Orca and other gui environments. Those of us who are quite long in the tooth will surely recall that Speakup works a lot like asap did in DOS--which I'm guessing you're too young to know about. As always, the advice is to use the tools that work best for you. We're all different people with different skills and proclivities. There's nothing wrong with that, and there's everything right with have a plethera of tools to select from. But, kindly don't blame the tool! Janina Jeffery Mewtamer writes: > One reason I'm stuck using Knoppix instead of Vanilla Debian is that I > find espeakup's screen review functionality far less intuitive > compared to SBL, the text-mode screen reader included in Knoppix's > Adriane accessibility suite. Plus, when I'm scrolling through a text > document in nano or package lists in aptitude, it's confusing when > espeakup decides to read the line that just scrolled on screen instead > of the line that the cursor was just moved to. > > I do like how espeakup will automatically read the position > information in nano when I press crtl+C instead of needing to use > screen review to read that line in SBL and how I don't need screen > review to have espeakup read output from Frotz and other text-mode > ZCod Virtual Machines, but SBL is still the overall better text-mode > screen reader in my opinion. Sadly, I've never gotten the knoppix .deb > to run on a Debian system, and it's i386 only so I couldn't use the > .deb on 64-bit or ARM debian anyways. To make matters worse, aside > from Knoppix, I know of no attempts to port SBL to any distro aside > from Suse where it originated, and I've been using Debian-based > distros for so long that learning an RPM distro would probably be more > trouble than its worth. > > Also, while Gmail's HTML view works well with Firefox and Orca, it's > pretty much unusable in elinks with either SBL or espeakup. Then > again, I find elinks unusable in general and every other text-mode > browser even worse, which is a real shame since Firefox is the only > graphical program I use and Firefox, Orca, and the minimalist X-server > I use to run them accountt for most of my root partition's used space. > > Granted, even Firefox would be borderline unusable if not for all the > handy navigation shortcuts Orca adds. Being able to press numrow 3 to > jump straight to the links to folders with unread messages or my > contacts link or pressing x to jump to the checkbox for > selecting/unslecting a message that happens to have the participants > and subject as it's label and being a single tab from the link that > will open the conversation is really handy. I try loading Gmail in > elinks, and I can't even tell if focus is on a link in the folder list > or a link in the message list. It's enough to wish my programming > skills were advanced enough to make patches for elinks that would add > the navigation shortcuts Orca adds to Firefox and to force elinks to > display multi-column webpages in a single column. > > -- > Sincerely, > > Jeffery Wright > President Emeritus, Nu Nu Chapter, Phi Theta Kappa. > Former Secretary, Student Government Association, College of the Albemarle. > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200 sip:jan...@asterisk.rednote.net Email: jan...@rednote.net Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca & tbird issues
will claws mail work with orca? i think kmail are for kde? Den 2016-11-10 kl. 11:18, skrev Jude DaShiell: When and where internet access is spotty. Where is most of the United States too. hughesnet hasn't been replaced by anything better yet. On Wed, 9 Nov 2016, Tim Chase wrote: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 20:14:12 From: Tim Chase Reply-To: Linux for blind general discussion To: blinux-list@redhat.com Subject: Re: Orca & tbird issues On November 9, 2016, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote: Personally, I've never seen the point of e-mail clients and have always used a web browser to check my e-mail. I think the big advantage is off-line usage. If you are connected all the time and have dual-mode access for redundancy (say, a home internet/wifi connection, and a 4G aircard), and don't roam much, then a web-based mail client solves a lot of problems. But when internet access is spotty or unreliable, it's nice to have full access to your email offline. Fortunately, there are lots of options, both within the GUI with varying degrees of accessibility (Thunderbird, Kmail, Claws Mail, and Evolution come to mind) and within the terminal (mutt and alpine being the dominant players, but "alot" and mailx/heirloom mailx also come to mind as well as several available within emacs). -tim ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
mutt indexing (was Re: Orca & tbird issues)
Most email clients have built-in search, however mutt requires an external indexer. I've done well with mu. It integrates by mapping search to one key (e.g. F8), you input text and ENTER, then hit another key (e.g. F9) to view search result. Takes one more keystroke than I'd like, but works okay. http://www.djcbsoftware.nl/code/mu/ Janina Sajka wrote: > Mutt does have one command I absolutely love, and I wonder whether the > gui clients have something similar. There's the usual 'r' for reply to > the sender, and 'g' for reply to all, but I particularly appreciate > Shift+L for "reply only to the lists, and not the individuals." > > I must confess, though, that I'm impressed that people have found a > browser interface to email fully usable. To me this suggests that > familiarity with the particular environment is still the most important > factor for success with whatever one chooses to use. > > Janina > > Tim Chase writes: > > On November 9, 2016, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote: > > > Personally, I've never seen the point of e-mail clients and have > > > always used a web browser to check my e-mail. > > > > I think the big advantage is off-line usage. If you are connected > > all the time and have dual-mode access for redundancy (say, a home > > internet/wifi connection, and a 4G aircard), and don't roam much, > > then a web-based mail client solves a lot of problems. But when > > internet access is spotty or unreliable, it's nice to have full > > access to your email offline. Fortunately, there are lots of > > options, both within the GUI with varying degrees of accessibility > > (Thunderbird, Kmail, Claws Mail, and Evolution come to mind) and > > within the terminal (mutt and alpine being the dominant players, but > > "alot" and mailx/heirloom mailx also come to mind as well as several > > available within emacs). > > > > -tim > > > > > > ___ > > Blinux-list mailing list > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > -- > > Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200 > sip:jan...@asterisk.rednote.net > Email: jan...@rednote.net > > Linux Foundation Fellow > Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org > > The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) > Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures http://www.w3.org/wai/apa > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- Joel Roth ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca & tbird issues
There is a reason why apps like Thunderbird and Microsoft Office are so popular. They are easy and efficient. Thunderbird worked pretty well with orca for many years. I'm not going to change email clients every time some bug develops. I'd go crazy. These bugs are enough to make me change eventually. But I have hopes they'll be fixed. On 11/10/2016 08:36 AM, Janina Sajka wrote: I just don't see any good reason for running a client like mutt in a gui terminal with Orca. Yes, from the "let's get everything working like it should" perspective, we need good performance and good behavior in gui terminals, but mutt just runs so well in a console terminal (think screen) with Speakup, that I just don't worry my poor little head over the gui terminal. It's rather interesting, though, that similar issues can sometimes crop up in the console environment. I've recently been running Fedora 25 pre-release mutt v. 1.7.1 as my client, and I occasionally run into focus problems, meaning that what Speakup's Keypad 8 will say is one off from the actual selection. Usually the screen Ctrl+l "redraw the screen" command fixes that. Until the last mutt update there was a more annoying issue for me where Home and End didn't work to take you to the top or bottom of the index list. It was a bug, and I'm so glad it's now squashed. As for replying to the wrong person, that just happens if one isn't careful to observe the header data before sending. You don't need to be blind and using a screen reader to exhibit that behavior. I see the very same thing every so often from the very smart teckies on my various W3C lists, most of who are perfectly able bodied. Mutt does have one command I absolutely love, and I wonder whether the gui clients have something similar. There's the usual 'r' for reply to the sender, and 'g' for reply to all, but I particularly appreciate Shift+L for "reply only to the lists, and not the individuals." I must confess, though, that I'm impressed that people have found a browser interface to email fully usable. To me this suggests that familiarity with the particular environment is still the most important factor for success with whatever one chooses to use. Janina Tim Chase writes: On November 9, 2016, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote: Personally, I've never seen the point of e-mail clients and have always used a web browser to check my e-mail. I think the big advantage is off-line usage. If you are connected all the time and have dual-mode access for redundancy (say, a home internet/wifi connection, and a 4G aircard), and don't roam much, then a web-based mail client solves a lot of problems. But when internet access is spotty or unreliable, it's nice to have full access to your email offline. Fortunately, there are lots of options, both within the GUI with varying degrees of accessibility (Thunderbird, Kmail, Claws Mail, and Evolution come to mind) and within the terminal (mutt and alpine being the dominant players, but "alot" and mailx/heirloom mailx also come to mind as well as several available within emacs). -tim ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- -- John G. Heim; jh...@math.wisc.edu; sip://jh...@sip.linphone.org ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca & tbird issues
One reason I'm stuck using Knoppix instead of Vanilla Debian is that I find espeakup's screen review functionality far less intuitive compared to SBL, the text-mode screen reader included in Knoppix's Adriane accessibility suite. Plus, when I'm scrolling through a text document in nano or package lists in aptitude, it's confusing when espeakup decides to read the line that just scrolled on screen instead of the line that the cursor was just moved to. I do like how espeakup will automatically read the position information in nano when I press crtl+C instead of needing to use screen review to read that line in SBL and how I don't need screen review to have espeakup read output from Frotz and other text-mode ZCod Virtual Machines, but SBL is still the overall better text-mode screen reader in my opinion. Sadly, I've never gotten the knoppix .deb to run on a Debian system, and it's i386 only so I couldn't use the .deb on 64-bit or ARM debian anyways. To make matters worse, aside from Knoppix, I know of no attempts to port SBL to any distro aside from Suse where it originated, and I've been using Debian-based distros for so long that learning an RPM distro would probably be more trouble than its worth. Also, while Gmail's HTML view works well with Firefox and Orca, it's pretty much unusable in elinks with either SBL or espeakup. Then again, I find elinks unusable in general and every other text-mode browser even worse, which is a real shame since Firefox is the only graphical program I use and Firefox, Orca, and the minimalist X-server I use to run them accountt for most of my root partition's used space. Granted, even Firefox would be borderline unusable if not for all the handy navigation shortcuts Orca adds. Being able to press numrow 3 to jump straight to the links to folders with unread messages or my contacts link or pressing x to jump to the checkbox for selecting/unslecting a message that happens to have the participants and subject as it's label and being a single tab from the link that will open the conversation is really handy. I try loading Gmail in elinks, and I can't even tell if focus is on a link in the folder list or a link in the message list. It's enough to wish my programming skills were advanced enough to make patches for elinks that would add the navigation shortcuts Orca adds to Firefox and to force elinks to display multi-column webpages in a single column. -- Sincerely, Jeffery Wright President Emeritus, Nu Nu Chapter, Phi Theta Kappa. Former Secretary, Student Government Association, College of the Albemarle. ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca & tbird issues
I just don't see any good reason for running a client like mutt in a gui terminal with Orca. Yes, from the "let's get everything working like it should" perspective, we need good performance and good behavior in gui terminals, but mutt just runs so well in a console terminal (think screen) with Speakup, that I just don't worry my poor little head over the gui terminal. It's rather interesting, though, that similar issues can sometimes crop up in the console environment. I've recently been running Fedora 25 pre-release mutt v. 1.7.1 as my client, and I occasionally run into focus problems, meaning that what Speakup's Keypad 8 will say is one off from the actual selection. Usually the screen Ctrl+l "redraw the screen" command fixes that. Until the last mutt update there was a more annoying issue for me where Home and End didn't work to take you to the top or bottom of the index list. It was a bug, and I'm so glad it's now squashed. As for replying to the wrong person, that just happens if one isn't careful to observe the header data before sending. You don't need to be blind and using a screen reader to exhibit that behavior. I see the very same thing every so often from the very smart teckies on my various W3C lists, most of who are perfectly able bodied. Mutt does have one command I absolutely love, and I wonder whether the gui clients have something similar. There's the usual 'r' for reply to the sender, and 'g' for reply to all, but I particularly appreciate Shift+L for "reply only to the lists, and not the individuals." I must confess, though, that I'm impressed that people have found a browser interface to email fully usable. To me this suggests that familiarity with the particular environment is still the most important factor for success with whatever one chooses to use. Janina Tim Chase writes: > On November 9, 2016, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote: > > Personally, I've never seen the point of e-mail clients and have > > always used a web browser to check my e-mail. > > I think the big advantage is off-line usage. If you are connected > all the time and have dual-mode access for redundancy (say, a home > internet/wifi connection, and a 4G aircard), and don't roam much, > then a web-based mail client solves a lot of problems. But when > internet access is spotty or unreliable, it's nice to have full > access to your email offline. Fortunately, there are lots of > options, both within the GUI with varying degrees of accessibility > (Thunderbird, Kmail, Claws Mail, and Evolution come to mind) and > within the terminal (mutt and alpine being the dominant players, but > "alot" and mailx/heirloom mailx also come to mind as well as several > available within emacs). > > -tim > > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200 sip:jan...@asterisk.rednote.net Email: jan...@rednote.net Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca & tbird issues
When and where internet access is spotty. Where is most of the United States too. hughesnet hasn't been replaced by anything better yet. On Wed, 9 Nov 2016, Tim Chase wrote: Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 20:14:12 From: Tim Chase Reply-To: Linux for blind general discussion To: blinux-list@redhat.com Subject: Re: Orca & tbird issues On November 9, 2016, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote: Personally, I've never seen the point of e-mail clients and have always used a web browser to check my e-mail. I think the big advantage is off-line usage. If you are connected all the time and have dual-mode access for redundancy (say, a home internet/wifi connection, and a 4G aircard), and don't roam much, then a web-based mail client solves a lot of problems. But when internet access is spotty or unreliable, it's nice to have full access to your email offline. Fortunately, there are lots of options, both within the GUI with varying degrees of accessibility (Thunderbird, Kmail, Claws Mail, and Evolution come to mind) and within the terminal (mutt and alpine being the dominant players, but "alot" and mailx/heirloom mailx also come to mind as well as several available within emacs). -tim ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca & tbird issues
I use Thunderbird most of the time, but use Gmail online when I want to have simple access with emails groups into threads. Devin Pratersent from Gmail. On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Tim Chase wrote: > On November 9, 2016, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote: > > Personally, I've never seen the point of e-mail clients and have > > always used a web browser to check my e-mail. > > I think the big advantage is off-line usage. If you are connected > all the time and have dual-mode access for redundancy (say, a home > internet/wifi connection, and a 4G aircard), and don't roam much, > then a web-based mail client solves a lot of problems. But when > internet access is spotty or unreliable, it's nice to have full > access to your email offline. Fortunately, there are lots of > options, both within the GUI with varying degrees of accessibility > (Thunderbird, Kmail, Claws Mail, and Evolution come to mind) and > within the terminal (mutt and alpine being the dominant players, but > "alot" and mailx/heirloom mailx also come to mind as well as several > available within emacs). > > -tim > > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca & tbird issues
On November 9, 2016, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote: > Personally, I've never seen the point of e-mail clients and have > always used a web browser to check my e-mail. I think the big advantage is off-line usage. If you are connected all the time and have dual-mode access for redundancy (say, a home internet/wifi connection, and a 4G aircard), and don't roam much, then a web-based mail client solves a lot of problems. But when internet access is spotty or unreliable, it's nice to have full access to your email offline. Fortunately, there are lots of options, both within the GUI with varying degrees of accessibility (Thunderbird, Kmail, Claws Mail, and Evolution come to mind) and within the terminal (mutt and alpine being the dominant players, but "alot" and mailx/heirloom mailx also come to mind as well as several available within emacs). -tim ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca & tbird issues
One advantage I've seen in a desktop email client is the ability to work off line. On 09/11/16 16:03, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote: Personally, I've never seen the point of e-mail clients and have always used a web browser to check my e-mail. Granted, not all e-mail web interfaces/web browser combinations work as well with Orca as Gmail's HTML view in Firefox does. Then again, I've never had any luck using Orca with a full Desktop and on my current machine, I'm running Firefox in a stripped down X-session. -- Christopher (CJ) chaltain at Gmail ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca & tbird issues
Personally, I've never seen the point of e-mail clients and have always used a web browser to check my e-mail. Granted, not all e-mail web interfaces/web browser combinations work as well with Orca as Gmail's HTML view in Firefox does. Then again, I've never had any luck using Orca with a full Desktop and on my current machine, I'm running Firefox in a stripped down X-session. -- Sincerely, Jeffery Wright President Emeritus, Nu Nu Chapter, Phi Theta Kappa. Former Secretary, Student Government Association, College of the Albemarle. ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca & tbird issues
I haven't had problems as you have described in Thunderbird for some time, although I do get hangs and frozen speech, even though all other apps speak without issues. SeaMonkey on the other hand works much better here. I neither hear spoken messages that are not selected, nor do I lose focus often. I have disabled all checkboxes that cause messages to be stored on this computer, so it cuts down a lot of the i/o that seems to hang things. However, Thunderbird doesn't appear to honor that option, so I'm on SeaMonkey for the foreseeable future, untill or unless Evolution, Balsa, Geary, Claws-mail or something else gets its act together and starts reading everything I need to hear and/or stops crashing as I try to use it. Sent from a revelation ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
