Re: ADV: Re: redhat itself
> "Janina" == Janina Sajkawrites: Janina> Hi, Sam: Well, you've certainly made my ears stam up Janina> straight! Janina> My work has been almost exclusively standards over the past Janina> dacde, primarily Linux Foundation -- which we need to Janina> reinvigorate, W3C which is highly productive just now, and Janina> also ISO SC35 the subcommittee on user interfaces. Janina> What are your standardization interests, if I may ask and Janina> you'd be willing to say more? Entirely unrelated to accessibility. A lot of Internet security stuff. See http://www.arkko.com/tools/allstats/samhartman.html for my IETF stuff. My previous company also did work with Open Flow and with Smart Grid. I didn't end up being named on anything but had discussions with our engineers on those projects. It's not directly standards work, but I currently sit on the Debian Technical Committee. I think I would be a good person to work with in the following ways: * I understand Linux technology. I care about accessibility, but I also care about the challenges developers and product owners face. I'm totally happy to use GUIs, touch screens, and the like when I can actually use them and get work done. However I'm happy to scream loudly when something like the VMware console situation gets in the way of people doing their jobs. * I'm reasonably good at explaining accessibility issue to developers and I think I'm reasonably good at explaining the technical challenges to non-technical accessibility advocates. * I'm good at building consensus. * I think I would come across very positively giving testimony in a lot of these issues. If I'm not needed, that's great. I have plenty of interesting problems to work on in security, Debian, and non-technical work. But if there are specific projects where getting someone like me involved might really help, I do care that blind IT professionals like myself are able to succeed. I am also happy to stand as an another example that when we succeed at accessibility, IT opens really amazing opportunities. --Sam ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: ADV: Re: redhat itself
Hi, Sam: Well, you've certainly made my ears stam up straight! My work has been almost exclusively standards over the past dacde, primarily Linux Foundation -- which we need to reinvigorate, W3C which is highly productive just now, and also ISO SC35 the subcommittee on user interfaces. What are your standardization interests, if I may ask and you'd be willing to say more? Janina Sam Hartman writes: > I've never been involved in regulatory work and have not generally been > involved in advocacy work within the blind community. > However, I have been fairly involved in international standards work > which is somewhat related to regulatory work. I have a very solid > senior technology resume as well as a background in building consensus > and helping people understand complex issues. > > I'm not looking for more work, but I agree this issue is important. > If anyone here is in a position where getting someone like me involved > would be helpful, I'd be happy to discuss. I have a good track record > on following through on the things I do agree to do. > > > --Sam -- Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200 sip:jan...@asterisk.rednote.net Email: jan...@rednote.net Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: redhat itself
Well, this goes back to the reason I helped create the International Association Of Visually Impaired Technologists. There doesn't seem to be anybody taking systems admin accessibility seriously. I talked to Curtis Chong of the NFB about this. The NFB spends a lot of it's resources talking to Microsoft about fairly minor accessibility flaws in Excel, Word, etc or to Amazon and Netfliks about the accessibility of their web sites. I argued that something like the Red Hat kernel not having console speech was more important because that could cost a sys admin his job. In fact, I know that things like that cost sys admins their jobs because I've seen it. You may not be fired for not being able to access the console on your servers. But what happens is that someone else is given all the duties involved with console access. It's one thing after another like that and pretty soon, your entire job consists of nothing more than helping people change their passwords. And when layoffs come around, you're the one to go. And that's only fair -- after all, you are the least valuable person in the department. I've seen this happen often enough that I even coined a term for it. I call it "getting backwatered". I doubt that not having console speech is a huge problem for more than a handful of blind systems admins. But it is just one more brick in the wall. On 08/11/2016 08:49 AM, Janina Sajka wrote: Hi, John: It's certainly possible to build rpms with the staging modules for Fedora. I used to do that years ago. Bill Acker kept up with doing that in recent years. While he wasn't the maintainer at rpmfusion for that particular package, builds did seem to cease about the time of his demise. I'm also surprised that others weren't clamoring for these drivers for their own, non Speakup related reasons, but I never did find any discussion like that. I filed bugs with each new Fedora release, but nothing happened. In fact the very last release at rpmfusion never worked because of broken dependencies. I've been sitting on a 4.0.3 kernel until I finally switched to Arch. Key functionality on my systems had begun to break, for example linphone. Yes, there was the option for me to take over building these rpms. However, it's not were I want to focus my efforts these days. I certainly thought about it. After all, there's a good deal of dislocation involved in switching distributions. Not everything works the same way, and I've already bumped into a need for workarounds. Fedora is certainly a major Linux distribution with much to recommend it, but easy use of Speakup is no longer one of its attributes. On the other hand I'm not aware of anyone using RHEL with Speakup. Certainly, there maybe someone who's figured that out. I can categorically report that Bill Acker failed in his attempts to build RHEL kernels with Speakup support, though these efforts took place some years ago. I'm not aware that he tried post 3.x, for instance. Lastly, I should add that the very argument you're making is one I tried making with the U.S. Access Board when the first Sec. 508 regulations were being written. Doug Wakefield didn't agree, and my argument was not accepted, and Redhat, among others, was able to slither off the hook around low-level systems accessibility. Janina John G Heim writes: Surely there must be somebody building kernels with those modules so that you can install by adding their yum repository to your system. If not, it would mean that a blind RH systems admin couldn't do his work at the console. If remote access is broken he'd be in serious trouble. Most systems admins don't have a choice as to what flavor of linux they use in their job. Here at the University of Wisconsin, the IT department used to run Red Hat. The campus had a site license. The Math Department, where I work, uses debian and ubuntu. But if I worked in another department, I'd probably be stuck with RH. I have been building kernels for debian and ubuntu that have a hack do serial synths work. I set up a apt repository at www.iavit.org so other people can use them too. I don't know anything about Red Hat but surely there must be the equivalent of a ppa. On 08/10/2016 09:10 AM, Janina Sajka wrote: Hi, Well, I've moved from Fedora to Arch on any machine where I need Speakup. The reason is that rpmfusion has not provided kernel staging modules since kernel 4.0.4. So, I had the choice of constantly building my own, or switching distros. I chose the latter. I am still running Fedora on my data center server, but I don't use Speakup on that machine, of course. Janina Willem van der Walt writes: Redhat these days is mostly used on servers as one buys support for that, but it is accessible. I ran Redhat years ago, but these days, I think, Janina is still running it or Fedora without problems. HTH, Willem On Sat, 6 Aug 2016, Mark Peveto wrote: Hmm, I noticed this is hosted on redhat.com. Does redhat have an accessible distro?
Re: redhat itself
Hi, John: It's certainly possible to build rpms with the staging modules for Fedora. I used to do that years ago. Bill Acker kept up with doing that in recent years. While he wasn't the maintainer at rpmfusion for that particular package, builds did seem to cease about the time of his demise. I'm also surprised that others weren't clamoring for these drivers for their own, non Speakup related reasons, but I never did find any discussion like that. I filed bugs with each new Fedora release, but nothing happened. In fact the very last release at rpmfusion never worked because of broken dependencies. I've been sitting on a 4.0.3 kernel until I finally switched to Arch. Key functionality on my systems had begun to break, for example linphone. Yes, there was the option for me to take over building these rpms. However, it's not were I want to focus my efforts these days. I certainly thought about it. After all, there's a good deal of dislocation involved in switching distributions. Not everything works the same way, and I've already bumped into a need for workarounds. Fedora is certainly a major Linux distribution with much to recommend it, but easy use of Speakup is no longer one of its attributes. On the other hand I'm not aware of anyone using RHEL with Speakup. Certainly, there maybe someone who's figured that out. I can categorically report that Bill Acker failed in his attempts to build RHEL kernels with Speakup support, though these efforts took place some years ago. I'm not aware that he tried post 3.x, for instance. Lastly, I should add that the very argument you're making is one I tried making with the U.S. Access Board when the first Sec. 508 regulations were being written. Doug Wakefield didn't agree, and my argument was not accepted, and Redhat, among others, was able to slither off the hook around low-level systems accessibility. Janina John G Heim writes: > Surely there must be somebody building kernels with those modules so that > you can install by adding their yum repository to your system. If not, it > would mean that a blind RH systems admin couldn't do his work at the > console. If remote access is broken he'd be in serious trouble. Most systems > admins don't have a choice as to what flavor of linux they use in their job. > Here at the University of Wisconsin, the IT department used to run Red Hat. > The campus had a site license. The Math Department, where I work, uses > debian and ubuntu. But if I worked in another department, I'd probably be > stuck with RH. > > > I have been building kernels for debian and ubuntu that have a hack do > serial synths work. I set up a apt repository at www.iavit.org so other > people can use them too. I don't know anything about Red Hat but surely > there must be the equivalent of a ppa. > > > > > On 08/10/2016 09:10 AM, Janina Sajka wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Well, I've moved from Fedora to Arch on any machine where I need > > Speakup. The reason is that rpmfusion has not provided kernel staging > > modules since kernel 4.0.4. > > > > So, I had the choice of constantly building my own, or switching > > distros. I chose the latter. > > > > I am still running Fedora on my data center server, but I don't use > > Speakup on that machine, of course. > > > > Janina > > > > Willem van der Walt writes: > > > Redhat these days is mostly used on servers as one buys support for that, > > > but it is accessible. > > > I ran Redhat years ago, but these days, I think, Janina is still running > > > it > > > or Fedora without problems. > > > HTH, Willem > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 6 Aug 2016, Mark Peveto wrote: > > > > > > > Hmm, I noticed this is hosted on redhat.com. Does redhat have an > > > > accessible distro? > > > > > > > > Everything happens after coffee! > > > > > > > > Mark Peveto > > > > Registered Linux user number 600552 > > > > Sent from sonar using alpine 2.20.14 > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > Blinux-list mailing list > > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright terms and conditions, > > > e-mail > > > legal notice, and implemented Open Document Format (ODF) standard. The > > > full > > > disclaimer details can be found at http://www.csir.co.za/disclaimer.html. > > > > > > Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > > > > > ___ > > > Blinux-list mailing list > > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > -- > -- > John G. Heim; jh...@math.wisc.edu; sip://jh...@sip.linphone.org > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200 sip:jan...@asterisk.rednote.net
Re: redhat itself
Phil: I want to make sure I understand ... Are you saying that console level access is explicitly disallowed by policy? I would presume that's some kind of security decision? Phil Rigby writes: > Hi, > > I use Red Hat Enterprise Linux, (RHEL), all the time at work. We manage > servers running RHEL, a lot of them Dell Poweredge rack mounts or Dell > blades. When new hardware comes in, I try to get them to set up things so > that the serial over LAN settings in the BIOS are enabled and, with a couple > of tweaks to the grub.conf file, I can get the RHEL console redirected and > then I ssh to the ILO/IDRAC card where I then have full console access so > that I can solve boot up issues or access the server when all its network > interfaces are dead. > > It is very rare these days that I actually do an OS installation as we have > kickstart files which run OS installs these days so they come up as a > standard build for a customer. > > In this environment, it doesn't matter a bit really what flavour of Linux is > used. It isn't Linux that is accessible or not. If you have ssh access to > the console and then, once the OS is up and running, via any network > connection, you can do everything whatever the Linux flavour. > > Now this is fine for the good old physical server world. My big problem is > that so much is going virtual now. We use VMWare for virtualisation and I > just cannot access the console of a VMWare VM running RHEL because these > seem only to be accessible through horrible Java GUI's which are only seen > through vCenter. To get to vCenter across a network, I would need to RDP > from a terminal server which is impossible. Even if I could do this, I > couldn't use the Java GUI as that is hopeless with most screen readers I > know. Before anyone suggests it, there is No such thing as direct access to > vCenter with a command line interface in the corporate world. I've tried for > it. You have my employer's corporate network policies, the customer's own > access policies and everything else blocking this. > > I have asked before on here if anyone has solutions in this area and I only > met with sympathy as several other people seem to have hit the same problem > but not yet found a solution. > > I just hope physical servers stay around a bit longer. > > > Cheers, > Phil. > > > -Original Message- > From: blinux-list-boun...@redhat.com [mailto:blinux-list-boun...@redhat.com] > On Behalf Of John G Heim > Sent: 10 August 2016 16:48 > To: Linux for blind general discussion > Subject: Re: redhat itself > > Surely there must be somebody building kernels with those modules so that > you can install by adding their yum repository to your system. If not, it > would mean that a blind RH systems admin couldn't do his work at the > console. If remote access is broken he'd be in serious trouble. Most systems > admins don't have a choice as to what flavor of linux they use in their job. > Here at the University of Wisconsin, the IT department used to run Red Hat. > The campus had a site license. The Math Department, where I work, uses > debian and ubuntu. But if I worked in another department, I'd probably be > stuck with RH. > > > I have been building kernels for debian and ubuntu that have a hack do > serial synths work. I set up a apt repository at www.iavit.org so other > people can use them too. I don't know anything about Red Hat but surely > there must be the equivalent of a ppa. > > > > > On 08/10/2016 09:10 AM, Janina Sajka wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Well, I've moved from Fedora to Arch on any machine where I need > > Speakup. The reason is that rpmfusion has not provided kernel staging > > modules since kernel 4.0.4. > > > > So, I had the choice of constantly building my own, or switching > > distros. I chose the latter. > > > > I am still running Fedora on my data center server, but I don't use > > Speakup on that machine, of course. > > > > Janina > > > > Willem van der Walt writes: > >> Redhat these days is mostly used on servers as one buys support for > >> that, but it is accessible. > >> I ran Redhat years ago, but these days, I think, Janina is still > >> running it or Fedora without problems. > >> HTH, Willem > >> > >> > >> On Sat, 6 Aug 2016, Mark Peveto wrote: > >> > >>> Hmm, I noticed this is hosted on redhat.com. Does redhat have an > accessible distro? > >>> > >>> Everything happens after coffee! > >>> > >>> Mark Peveto > >>> Registered Linux user number 600552 > >>> Sent from sonar
Re: redhat itself
Surely there must be somebody building kernels with those modules so that you can install by adding their yum repository to your system. If not, it would mean that a blind RH systems admin couldn't do his work at the console. If remote access is broken he'd be in serious trouble. Most systems admins don't have a choice as to what flavor of linux they use in their job. Here at the University of Wisconsin, the IT department used to run Red Hat. The campus had a site license. The Math Department, where I work, uses debian and ubuntu. But if I worked in another department, I'd probably be stuck with RH. I have been building kernels for debian and ubuntu that have a hack do serial synths work. I set up a apt repository at www.iavit.org so other people can use them too. I don't know anything about Red Hat but surely there must be the equivalent of a ppa. On 08/10/2016 09:10 AM, Janina Sajka wrote: Hi, Well, I've moved from Fedora to Arch on any machine where I need Speakup. The reason is that rpmfusion has not provided kernel staging modules since kernel 4.0.4. So, I had the choice of constantly building my own, or switching distros. I chose the latter. I am still running Fedora on my data center server, but I don't use Speakup on that machine, of course. Janina Willem van der Walt writes: Redhat these days is mostly used on servers as one buys support for that, but it is accessible. I ran Redhat years ago, but these days, I think, Janina is still running it or Fedora without problems. HTH, Willem On Sat, 6 Aug 2016, Mark Peveto wrote: Hmm, I noticed this is hosted on redhat.com. Does redhat have an accessible distro? Everything happens after coffee! Mark Peveto Registered Linux user number 600552 Sent from sonar using alpine 2.20.14 ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright terms and conditions, e-mail legal notice, and implemented Open Document Format (ODF) standard. The full disclaimer details can be found at http://www.csir.co.za/disclaimer.html. Please consider the environment before printing this email. ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- -- John G. Heim; jh...@math.wisc.edu; sip://jh...@sip.linphone.org ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: redhat itself
Hi, Well, I've moved from Fedora to Arch on any machine where I need Speakup. The reason is that rpmfusion has not provided kernel staging modules since kernel 4.0.4. So, I had the choice of constantly building my own, or switching distros. I chose the latter. I am still running Fedora on my data center server, but I don't use Speakup on that machine, of course. Janina Willem van der Walt writes: > Redhat these days is mostly used on servers as one buys support for that, > but it is accessible. > I ran Redhat years ago, but these days, I think, Janina is still running it > or Fedora without problems. > HTH, Willem > > > On Sat, 6 Aug 2016, Mark Peveto wrote: > > > Hmm, I noticed this is hosted on redhat.com. Does redhat have an > > accessible distro? > > > > Everything happens after coffee! > > > > Mark Peveto > > Registered Linux user number 600552 > > Sent from sonar using alpine 2.20.14 > > > > ___ > > Blinux-list mailing list > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > > > > > -- > > This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright terms and conditions, e-mail > legal notice, and implemented Open Document Format (ODF) standard. The full > disclaimer details can be found at http://www.csir.co.za/disclaimer.html. > > Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200 sip:jan...@asterisk.rednote.net Email: jan...@rednote.net Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: redhat itself
Janina gave up on Fedora and is now using archlinux and posted to that effect earlier on this list. On Wed, 10 Aug 2016, Willem van der Walt wrote: Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 01:35:01 From: Willem van der Walt <wvdw...@csir.co.za> Reply-To: Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> To: Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list@redhat.com> Subject: Re: redhat itself Redhat these days is mostly used on servers as one buys support for that, but it is accessible. I ran Redhat years ago, but these days, I think, Janina is still running it or Fedora without problems. HTH, Willem On Sat, 6 Aug 2016, Mark Peveto wrote: Hmm, I noticed this is hosted on redhat.com. Does redhat have an accessible distro? Everything happens after coffee! Mark Peveto Registered Linux user number 600552 Sent from sonar using alpine 2.20.14 ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright terms and conditions, e-mail legal notice, and implemented Open Document Format (ODF) standard. The full disclaimer details can be found at http://www.csir.co.za/disclaimer.html. Please consider the environment before printing this email. ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: redhat itself
Redhat these days is mostly used on servers as one buys support for that, but it is accessible. I ran Redhat years ago, but these days, I think, Janina is still running it or Fedora without problems. HTH, Willem On Sat, 6 Aug 2016, Mark Peveto wrote: Hmm, I noticed this is hosted on redhat.com. Does redhat have an accessible distro? Everything happens after coffee! Mark Peveto Registered Linux user number 600552 Sent from sonar using alpine 2.20.14 ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list -- This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright terms and conditions, e-mail legal notice, and implemented Open Document Format (ODF) standard. The full disclaimer details can be found at http://www.csir.co.za/disclaimer.html. Please consider the environment before printing this email. ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
redhat itself
Hmm, I noticed this is hosted on redhat.com. Does redhat have an accessible distro? Everything happens after coffee! Mark Peveto Registered Linux user number 600552 Sent from sonar using alpine 2.20.14 ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list