Re: Fwd: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys
On 2017-03-17 3:19 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Friday, March 17, 2017 11:27 AM On 03/17/2017 11:09 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: and, although we don't know when YOU were playing it, the march had been around half a century, so was probably playing on the radio to inspire Backus. Does that mean that Dan. might be right about it being the predecessor to FORTRAN? Valdres March has been around for more than a century--it's at least 113 years old. So FORTRAN has some catching up to do. It wasn't until the microcomputer era with BASIC, I think that FORTRAN wasn't the first HLL to be contemplated for a new architecture. "I don't know what the language of the year 2000 will look like, but I know it will be called Fortran." --Tony Hoare, winner of the 1980 Turing Award, in 1982. Depressingly prescient... --T
RE: Fwd: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys
From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Friday, March 17, 2017 11:27 AM > On 03/17/2017 11:09 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> and, although we don't know when YOU were playing it, the march had >> been around half a century, so was probably playing on the radio to >> inspire Backus. Does that mean that Dan. might be right about it >> being the predecessor to FORTRAN? > Valdres March has been around for more than a century--it's at least 113 > years old. > So FORTRAN has some catching up to do. > It wasn't until the microcomputer era with BASIC, I think that FORTRAN > wasn't the first HLL to be contemplated for a new architecture. "I don't know what the language of the year 2000 will look like, but I know it will be called Fortran." --Tony Hoare, winner of the 1980 Turing Award, in 1982.
Re: Fwd: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys
On 03/17/2017 11:09 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > and, although we don't know when YOU were playing it, the march had > been around half a century, so was probably playing on the radio to > inspire Backus. Does that mean that Dan. might be right about it > being the predecessor to FORTRAN? Valdres March has been around for more than a century--it's at least 113 years old. So FORTRAN has some catching up to do. It wasn't until the microcomputer era with BASIC, I think that FORTRAN wasn't the first HLL to be contemplated for a new architecture. --Chuck
Re: Fwd: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys
In response to a question of who provided the Lisa FORTRAN, guy who insisted that Valtrep was the predecessor of FORTRAN 'course he also had OS/2 for the PDP-11, and a PROGRAM that could duplicate alignment disks, . . . Isn't "Valdtrep" a Norwegian march by Johannes Hanssen? It's Valdres https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valdres and Valdres march. Oh, I know--I was making a joke. It's a fine march and I've performed it in conCert bands many times. and, although we don't know when YOU were playing it, the march had been around half a century, so was probably playing on the radio to inspire Backus. Does that mean that Dan. might be right about it being the predecessor to FORTRAN? OB_Trivia: Originally "FORTRAN" was a portmanteau of "FORmula TRANslation". cf. Lewis Carroll, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/portmanteau (Q: Why would anybody make a computer language out of a big suitcase? A: for portability!) In 1992?, the revised standard changed the official spelling from FORTRAN to Fortran, (Fortran 8X, Fortran 90) Valtrep came long after FORTRAN, and had no discernable influence on Fortran. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: Fwd: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys
On 03/17/2017 10:06 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Oh, I know--I was making a joke. It's a fine march and I've > performed it in convert bands many times. Er, make that "concert bands" --Chuck
Re: Fwd: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys
On 03/17/2017 06:46 AM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 4:31 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk >wrote: >> On 03/16/2017 08:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> Isn't "Valdtrep" a Norwegian march by Johannes Hanssen? > > It's Valdres https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valdres and Valdres > march. Oh, I know--I was making a joke. It's a fine march and I've performed it in convert bands many times. --Chuck
Re: Fwd: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys
On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 4:31 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalkwrote: > On 03/16/2017 08:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > > Isn't "Valdtrep" a Norwegian march by Johannes Hanssen? It's Valdres https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valdres and Valdres march. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen
Re: Fwd: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys
On 03/16/2017 08:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > In response to a question of who provided the Lisa FORTRAN, guy who > insisted that Valtrep was the predecessor of FORTRAN 'course he also > had OS/2 for the PDP-11, and a PROGRAM that could duplicate alignment > disks, . . . Oh jeez, not that again! I'd hoped that I'd forgotten about him... Isn't "Valdtrep" a Norwegian march by Johannes Hanssen? --Chuck
Re: Fwd: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys
On 03/16/2017 06:28 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > But was FORTRAN that portable? Other than the IBM 1130 I cannot think > of a small computer that had ample I/O and memory to run and compile > FORTRAN. All the other 16 bitters seem to more paper tape I/O. I > suspect 90% of all university computers ended up as IBM 360 systems. > A few ended up with the VAX, but who knows what they ran. Oh, dear--time for a history lesson. 1. Even the IBM 650 had a FORTRAN of sorts 2. One thing that was a sales point for the PDP-8 back in the day was that for about $5K, you could get a computer that would run 4K FORTRAN: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp8/software/DEC-08-AFCO-D_4K_FORTRAN.pdf 3. FORTRAN was originally released, IIRC for the IBM 709, and was a card-only system; versions for the 704, and, as previously mentioned, the 650. I've used card-only FORTRANs on the 1620 and 1401. 4. The 8080/Z80 had FORTRAN, and I suspect there was also a FORTRAN for the 8008 (if APL on the 8008 was possible, surely FORTRAN was). 5. I've never heard of a COBOL for the IBM 650. --Chuck
Re: Fwd: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys
Who was it who said, "FORTRAN is more portable than syphilis" I found it! I thought Djikstra, but it turned out to be Stan Kelly-Bootle: "The definition of FORTRAN from the "Devil's DP Dictionary", by Stan Kelly-Bootle: "FORTRAN n. [Acronym for FORmula TRANslating system.] One of the earliest languages of any real height, level-wise, developed out of Speedcoding by Backus and Ziller for the IBM/704 in the mid 1950s in order to boost the sale of 80-column cards to engineers. In spite of regular improvements(including a recent option called 'STRUCTURE'), it remains popular among engineers but despised elsewhere. Many rivals, with the benefit of hindsight, have crossed swords with the old workhorse ! Yet FORTRAN gallops on, warts and all, more transportable than syphilis, fired by a bottomless pit of working subprograms. Lacking the compact power of APL, the intellectually satisfying elegance of ALGOL 68, the didactic incision of Pascal, and the spurned universality of PL/I, FORTRAN survives, nay, FLOURISHES, thanks to a superior investmental inertia."
Re: Fwd: Re: Architectural diversity - was Re: Pair of Twiggys
On Thu, 16 Mar 2017, ben via cctalk wrote: But was FORTRAN that portable? Who was it who said, "FORTRAN is more portable than syphilis" Other than the IBM 1130 I cannot think of a small computer that had ample I/O and memory to run and compile FORTRAN. All the other 16 bitters seem to more paper tape I/O. I suspect 90% of all university computers ended up as IBM 360 systems. A few ended up with the VAX, but who knows what they ran. 1401 1620 (if you count PDQ) In 1983, I was called in as a long-term substitute to take over teaching a Fortran class using IBM PCs with Microsoft/IBM Fortran.