growisofs with -b problem
I am trying to create a bootable DVD disk using nd-1300a. which is DVD+-RW drive. 0,0,0 0) '_NEC' 'DVD_RW ND-1300A ' '1.05' Removable The machine is 850Mhz Celeron RH9.0, kernel 2.4.20-8 OS is RH9 BTW, if this is not the proper forum - my apologies and please suggest a better one. Q1: is it possible to boot from a DVD disk? I was able to create DVD disk with a following command: tar -cv ./me/rpm | /mnt/linux2/home/me/erikel/tools/dvdPrw/dvd+rw-tools-5.9.4.4.4/growisofs -Z /dev/scd0=/dev/fd/0 -b /home/me/erikel/tools/tomsrtbt/tomsrtbt-2.0.103.ElTorito.288.img -c boot.cat However my computer would not boot from that DVD+rw disk. Q2: Why not? or is the answer to Q1 is "no"? So then I tried: # /mnt/linux2/home/me/erikel/tools/dvdPrw/dvd+rw-tools-5.9.4.4.4/growisofs -b tomsrtbt-2.0.103.ElTorito.288.img -c boot.cat -Z /dev/scd0 -R -J /tmp/me.tar But this command could not find the image file? Q3: Did I specify the wrong path? Complete command history with a couple version of the last command is below (line starting with '#' are actual shell commands): *** # tar -cv ./me/rpm | /mnt/linux2/home/me/erikel/tools/dvdPrw/dvd+rw-tools-5.9.4.4.4/growisofs -Z /dev/scd0=/dev/fd/0 -b /home/me/erikel/tools/tomsrtbt/tomsrtbt-2.0.103.ElTorito.288.img -c boot.cat ./me/rpm/ ./me/rpm/j2re-1_4_1_04-fcs-linux-i586.rpm Executing 'builtin_dd if=/dev/fd/0 of=/dev/scd0 obs=32k seek=0' ./me/rpm/j2re-1_4_1_04-linux-i586-rpm.bin ./me/rpm/kernel-ntfs-2.4.20-8.i686.rpm ./me/rpm/rpm_list.small ./me/rpm/mkcdrec-v0.7.3-1.i386.rpm /dev/scd0: flushing cache /dev/scd0: stopping de-icing /dev/scd0: writing lead-out /dev/scd0: reloading tray # pwd /mnt/linux2/home # cd /root # cd # pwd /root # /mnt/linux2/home/me/erikel/tools/dvdPrw/dvd+rw-tools-5.9.4.4.4/growisofs -b tomsrtbt-2.0.103.ElTorito.288.img -c boot.cat -Z /dev/scd0 -R -J /tmp/me.tar Executing 'mkisofs -b tomsrtbt-2.0.103.ElTorito.288.img -c boot.cat -R -J /tmp/me.tar | builtin_dd of=/dev/scd0 obs=32k seek=0' mkisofs: Uh oh, I cant find the boot image 'tomsrtbt-2.0.103.ElTorito.288.img' !:-( mkisofs failed: 65280 # /mnt/linux2/home/me/erikel/tools/dvdPrw/dvd+rw-tools-5.9.4.4.4/growisofs -b ./tomsrtbt-2.0.103.ElTorito.288.img -c boot.cat -Z /dev/scd0 -R -J /tmp/me.tar Executing 'mkisofs -b ./tomsrtbt-2.0.103.ElTorito.288.img -c boot.cat -R -J /tmp/me.tar | builtin_dd of=/dev/scd0 obs=32k seek=0' mkisofs: Uh oh, I cant find the boot image './tomsrtbt-2.0.103.ElTorito.288.img' ! :-( mkisofs failed: 65280 # ll ./tomsrtbt-2.0.103.ElTorito.288.img -rw-r--r--1 root root 2949120 Aug 17 22:17 ./tomsrtbt-2.0.103.ElTorito.288.img # ll tomsrtbt-2.0.103.ElTorito.288.img -rw-r--r--1 root root 2949120 Aug 17 22:17 tomsrtbt-2.0.103.ElTorito.288.img # dvdrecord -checkdrive dev=0,0,0 dvdrtools v0.1.3 Portions (c) 2002 Red Hat, Inc. Based on: Cdrecord 1.11a15 (i386-redhat-linux-gnu) Copyright (C) 1995-2001 J?rg Schilling scsidev: '0,0,0' scsibus: 0 target: 0 lun: 0 Linux sg driver version: 3.1.24 Using libscg version 'schily-0.5' dvdrecord: Warning: using inofficial libscg transport code version (schily-RH-scsi-linux-sg.c-1.69-RH-O_EXCL '@(#)scsi-linux-sg.c 1.69 02/01/18 Copyright 1997 J. Schilling'). Device type: Removable CD-ROM Version: 0 Response Format: 2 Capabilities : Vendor_info: '_NEC' Identifikation : 'DVD_RW ND-1300A ' Revision : '1.05' Device seems to be: Generic mmc2 DVD. Using generic SCSI-3/mmc CD-R driver (mmc_cdr). Driver flags : SWABAUDIO BURNFREE Supported modes: TAO PACKET SAO SAO/R96R RAW/R96R * end of (hi)story. Thanks in advance for any help. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: growisofs with -b problem
> ... growisofs -b tomsrtbt-2.0.103.ElTorito.288.img -c boot.cat -Z /dev/scd0 -R -J > /tmp/me.tar growisofs doesn't have a -b option. The template is * growisofs by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, version 5.11, - usage: growisofs [-dvd-compat] [-overburn] [-speed=1] \ -[ZM] /dev/cdrom for see 'mkisofs -help' Which kind of tells you that all the mkisofs options need to be after all the growisofs options. You could also create a disk image first with mkisofs and then burn that with growisofs. Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann is possibly list0570 with the domain in header http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: growisofs with -b problem
> Q1: is it possible to boot from a DVD disk? Noone will be able to answer this question with 100% certainty. If your BIOS can boot from CD, it most likely can boot from DVD as well. But there might be limitations, e.g. bootstrap image has to be in the beginning om media perhaps, nobody knows for sure if there're any limitations or not... > I was able to create DVD disk with a following command: > tar -cv ./me/rpm | > /mnt/linux2/home/me/erikel/tools/dvdPrw/dvd+rw-tools-5.9.4.4.4/growisofs -Z > /dev/scd0=/dev/fd/0 -b > /home/me/erikel/tools/tomsrtbt/tomsrtbt-2.0.103.ElTorito.288.img -c boot.cat You should really look at what growisofs says upon startup (use -dry-run to examine this option without starting recording). > Executing 'builtin_dd if=/dev/fd/0 of=/dev/scd0 obs=32k seek=0' As you can see it has performed verbatim copy of standard input (/dev/fd/0) to DVD. This [among other things] means that whenever you specify -Z /dev/X=Y, all mkisofs options are basically discarded. > However my computer would not boot from that DVD+rw disk. What you've done here is mastered tar-formatted media, the one you're supposed to access with 'tar tf /dev/scd0', not mount or boot from. It's not a DVD or DVD+RW or growisofs or mkisofs issue, you've misunderstood the concept:-) > Q2: Why not? or is the answer to Q1 is "no"? > > So then I tried: > # > /mnt/linux2/home/me/erikel/tools/dvdPrw/dvd+rw-tools-5.9.4.4.4/growisofs -b > tomsrtbt-2.0.103.ElTorito.288.img -c boot.cat -Z /dev/scd0 -R -J /tmp/me.tar > But this command could not find the image file? > Q3: Did I specify the wrong path? Yes. And this is not a DVD or DVD+RW or growisofs issue either. mkisofs expects -b argument to be "relative to the source path," you can't just collect boot image and files like you tried to, when you master a bootable media. Read mkisofs manual, search google for receipt/tutorial on how to make bootable CD. Volker Kuhlmann wrote: > * growisofs by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, version 5.11, > - usage: growisofs [-dvd-compat] [-overburn] [-speed=1] \ >-[ZM] /dev/cdrom > for see 'mkisofs -help' > > Which kind of tells you that all the mkisofs options need to be after > all the growisofs options. Not 100% true. are suggested to be passed last in command line mostly for aesthetic reasons. In reality you can actually mix them with "native" growisofs options. Well, I probably should have never said this, as certain discipline in composing command line does help to understand what's going on:-) > You could also create a disk image first with mkisofs and then burn that > with growisofs. One of the practical(!) ideas behind growisofs is to be excused from creating intermediate image prior recording. It's definitely and absolutely good idea for figuring things out (as you can check the image by mount -o ro,loop), but if you're confident in what you're doing, mastering of intermediate image is just a waste of time and resources:-) Cheers. A. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: growisofs with -b problem
> > Which kind of tells you that all the mkisofs options need to be after > > all the growisofs options. > > Not 100% true. are suggested to be passed last in > command line mostly for aesthetic reasons. In reality you can actually > mix them with "native" growisofs options. You should probably disable that, because one day you might want to use an option for growisofs which also has meaning for mkisofs (given the optionitis in mkisofs that's not unlikely). > One of the practical(!) ideas behind growisofs is to be excused from > creating intermediate image prior recording. Yes, that would be nice, but only works with iso9660 as filesystem, and perhaps with udf, if you're satisfied with what mkisofs -udf produces as udf. Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann is possibly list0570 with the domain in header http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: growisofs with -b problem
>From: "eugene rikel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >I am trying to create a bootable DVD disk using nd-1300a. which is DVD+-RW >drive. > 0,0,0 0) '_NEC' 'DVD_RW ND-1300A ' '1.05' Removable >The machine is 850Mhz Celeron RH9.0, kernel 2.4.20-8 >OS is RH9 >BTW, if this is not the proper forum - my apologies and please suggest a >better one. >Q1: is it possible to boot from a DVD disk? Yes if your machive supports it. >tomsrtbt-2.0.103.ElTorito.288.img ># dvdrecord -checkdrive dev=0,0,0 >dvdrtools v0.1.3 >Portions (c) 2002 Red Hat, Inc. >Based on: >Cdrecord 1.11a15 (i386-redhat-linux-gnu) Copyright (C) 1995-2001 J?rg >Schilling >scsidev: '0,0,0' >scsibus: 0 target: 0 lun: 0 >Linux sg driver version: 3.1.24 >Using libscg version 'schily-0.5' >dvdrecord: Warning: using inofficial libscg transport code version >(schily-RH-scsi-linux-sg.c-1.69-RH-O_EXCL '@(#)scsi-linux-sg.c 1.69 >02/01/18 Copyright >1997 J. Schilling'). >Device type: Removable CD-ROM >Version: 0 >Response Format: 2 >Capabilities : >Vendor_info: '_NEC' >Identifikation : 'DVD_RW ND-1300A ' >Revision : '1.05' >Device seems to be: Generic mmc2 DVD. >Using generic SCSI-3/mmc CD-R driver (mmc_cdr). >Driver flags : SWABAUDIO BURNFREE >Supported modes: TAO PACKET SAO SAO/R96R RAW/R96R This is illegal software! RedHat is violating the GPL. How about using cdrecord-ProDVD? Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) If you don't have iso-8859-1 [EMAIL PROTECTED](work) chars I am J"org Schilling URL: http://www.fokus.fraunhofer.de/usr/schilling ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: growisofs with -b problem
On Wed, Aug 20, 2003 at 02:47:48PM +0200, Joerg Schilling wrote: > >From: "eugene rikel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >I am trying to create a bootable DVD disk using nd-1300a. which is DVD+-RW > >drive. > > 0,0,0 0) '_NEC' 'DVD_RW ND-1300A ' '1.05' Removable > >The machine is 850Mhz Celeron RH9.0, kernel 2.4.20-8 > >OS is RH9 > >BTW, if this is not the proper forum - my apologies and please suggest a > >better one. > > >Q1: is it possible to boot from a DVD disk? > > Yes if your machive supports it. > > >tomsrtbt-2.0.103.ElTorito.288.img > ># dvdrecord -checkdrive dev=0,0,0 > >dvdrtools v0.1.3 > >Portions (c) 2002 Red Hat, Inc. > >Based on: > >Cdrecord 1.11a15 (i386-redhat-linux-gnu) Copyright (C) 1995-2001 J?rg > >Schilling > >scsidev: '0,0,0' > >scsibus: 0 target: 0 lun: 0 > >Linux sg driver version: 3.1.24 > >Using libscg version 'schily-0.5' > >dvdrecord: Warning: using inofficial libscg transport code version > >(schily-RH-scsi-linux-sg.c-1.69-RH-O_EXCL '@(#)scsi-linux-sg.c 1.69 > >02/01/18 Copyright > >1997 J. Schilling'). > >Device type: Removable CD-ROM > >Version: 0 > >Response Format: 2 > >Capabilities : > >Vendor_info: '_NEC' > >Identifikation : 'DVD_RW ND-1300A ' > >Revision : '1.05' > >Device seems to be: Generic mmc2 DVD. > >Using generic SCSI-3/mmc CD-R driver (mmc_cdr). > >Driver flags : SWABAUDIO BURNFREE > >Supported modes: TAO PACKET SAO SAO/R96R RAW/R96R > > This is illegal software! RedHat is violating the GPL. The source code is included, the license is GPL, they didn't remove the copyrights that were there, they clearly state what it is based on. What more do you expect them to do? > How about using cdrecord-ProDVD? Some people prefer opensource tools for what they do, even if they are not as good. Len Sorensen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: growisofs with -b problem
Well after some more invetigation here are the facts: 1. I was able to boot from my DVD+RW using growisofs with the following command: 2.It seems there is a bug in mkisfos with "-b" option. Let's say I want to backup /home/me/x/y/z but my boot image is located in /home/me/x/y/a So when I try to specify ../a/boot.img - mkisofs fails to find it, even though it is a relative path. Could it be that stuff starting with ../ or ./ does not work? BTW, this is the format I tried 1st, just did not inlcude in my 1st mail. 3. What I was trying to do was to create a DVD bootable disk with a tar archive of the whole system. I have a small 1st disk that was more then 50% full, so creating a tar image first was not an option. It sounds like it is not possible. I will have to place a bootable disk image and the tar archive on a separate individual disks. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 3:59 AM To: eugene rikel Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: growisofs with -b problem > Q1: is it possible to boot from a DVD disk? Noone will be able to answer this question with 100% certainty. If your BIOS can boot from CD, it most likely can boot from DVD as well. But there might be limitations, e.g. bootstrap image has to be in the beginning om media perhaps, nobody knows for sure if there're any limitations or not... > I was able to create DVD disk with a following command: > tar -cv ./me/rpm | > /mnt/linux2/home/me/erikel/tools/dvdPrw/dvd+rw-tools-5.9.4.4.4/growisofs -Z > /dev/scd0=/dev/fd/0 -b > /home/me/erikel/tools/tomsrtbt/tomsrtbt-2.0.103.ElTorito.288.img -c boot.cat You should really look at what growisofs says upon startup (use -dry-run to examine this option without starting recording). > Executing 'builtin_dd if=/dev/fd/0 of=/dev/scd0 obs=32k seek=0' As you can see it has performed verbatim copy of standard input (/dev/fd/0) to DVD. This [among other things] means that whenever you specify -Z /dev/X=Y, all mkisofs options are basically discarded. > However my computer would not boot from that DVD+rw disk. What you've done here is mastered tar-formatted media, the one you're supposed to access with 'tar tf /dev/scd0', not mount or boot from. It's not a DVD or DVD+RW or growisofs or mkisofs issue, you've misunderstood the concept:-) > Q2: Why not? or is the answer to Q1 is "no"? > > So then I tried: > # > /mnt/linux2/home/me/erikel/tools/dvdPrw/dvd+rw-tools-5.9.4.4.4/growisofs -b > tomsrtbt-2.0.103.ElTorito.288.img -c boot.cat -Z /dev/scd0 -R -J /tmp/me.tar > But this command could not find the image file? > Q3: Did I specify the wrong path? Yes. And this is not a DVD or DVD+RW or growisofs issue either. mkisofs expects -b argument to be "relative to the source path," you can't just collect boot image and files like you tried to, when you master a bootable media. Read mkisofs manual, search google for receipt/tutorial on how to make bootable CD. Volker Kuhlmann wrote: > * growisofs by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, version 5.11, > - usage: growisofs [-dvd-compat] [-overburn] [-speed=1] \ >-[ZM] /dev/cdrom > for see 'mkisofs -help' > > Which kind of tells you that all the mkisofs options need to be after > all the growisofs options. Not 100% true. are suggested to be passed last in command line mostly for aesthetic reasons. In reality you can actually mix them with "native" growisofs options. Well, I probably should have never said this, as certain discipline in composing command line does help to understand what's going on:-) > You could also create a disk image first with mkisofs and then burn that > with growisofs. One of the practical(!) ideas behind growisofs is to be excused from creating intermediate image prior recording. It's definitely and absolutely good idea for figuring things out (as you can check the image by mount -o ro,loop), but if you're confident in what you're doing, mastering of intermediate image is just a waste of time and resources:-) Cheers. A. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: growisofs with -b problem
> 2.It seems there is a bug in mkisfos with "-b" option. Let's say I want to > backup > /home/me/x/y/z > but my boot image is located in > /home/me/x/y/a > So when I try to specify ../a/boot.img - mkisofs fails to find it, It's not a bug. You *have to* have boot.img *within* the tree you pass down to mkisofs, not outside. > 3. What I was trying to do was to create a DVD bootable disk with a tar > archive of the whole system. Keep in mind limitations discussed in http://www.mail-archive.com/cdwrite%40other.debian.org/msg04256.html. > I will have to place a bootable disk image and the tar archive on a separate > individual disks. Yes, burn bootable CD and tar-formatted DVD, so that you can boot from CD, eject it, put in DVD and restore with 'tar xvf /dev/scd0'. A. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: growisofs with -b problem
> 2.It seems there is a bug in mkisfos with "-b" option. Let's say I want to > is a relative path. Could it be that stuff starting with ../ or ./ does not > work? Quite possibly. I make bootable CDs without problem, but I don't have . or .. in the -b path. > 3. What I was trying to do was to create a DVD bootable disk with a tar > archive > of the whole system. mkisofs creates iso disk images from files which already exist, it can't do that from files which do not yet exist, like your tar archive file. If you absolutely don't have the space to store a mastered disk image, you could * Get the options right and pipe an iso9660 bootable disk image into growisofs. This must(!) be using rock ridge, and you will not be able to restore hardlinks from the iso9660 file system because of limitations in its Linux implementation. No data will be lost, but all hardlinked files will separate. * Get the dvd+rw kernel patch, mkudffs /dev/sr0, and copy all files to dvd. Warning this a) is very slow to create, b) can be, depending on the order in which you read files, very slow to read more than just single files. The cp-sort from the scriptutils package on my web site copies directory trees faithfully in alphabetical order. You will need GNU(!) cpio, chown, chgrp etc for it (their non-GNU equivalents, at least on solaris, are pathologically braindamaged and therefore useless). Because of bugs in the Linux udf fs, you will afterwards need to run rsync to copy all your symlinks again (about 10-20% of them will be damaged by the udf fs), but I have not yet found any other damage. This method has the advantage that you can make small changes at any time. However, with the low cost of 4.5GB worth of disk space, you could potentially save yourself a lot of trouble, especially in case 2 above. And you can finaly get your tar file archived :) Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann is possibly list0570 with the domain in header http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: growisofs with -b problem
>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Aug 20 18:30:19 2003 >> >Identifikation : 'DVD_RW ND-1300A ' >> >Revision : '1.05' >> >Device seems to be: Generic mmc2 DVD. >> >Using generic SCSI-3/mmc CD-R driver (mmc_cdr). >> >Driver flags : SWABAUDIO BURNFREE >> >Supported modes: TAO PACKET SAO SAO/R96R RAW/R96R >> >> This is illegal software! RedHat is violating the GPL. >The source code is included, the license is GPL, they didn't remove the >copyrights that were there, they clearly state what it is based on. >What more do you expect them to do? Sorry I did post this many times now. Read the GPL see GPL § 2 subclause c) and GPL Preamble, subsection 6) >> How about using cdrecord-ProDVD? >Some people prefer opensource tools for what they do, even if they are >not as good. Other people prefer working software. Jörg -- EMail:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin [EMAIL PROTECTED](uni) If you don't have iso-8859-1 [EMAIL PROTECTED](work) chars I am J"org Schilling URL: http://www.fokus.fraunhofer.de/usr/schilling ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: growisofs with -b problem
On Thu, Aug 21, 2003 at 05:49:31PM +0200, Joerg Schilling wrote: > >The source code is included, the license is GPL, they didn't remove the > >copyrights that were there, they clearly state what it is based on. > >What more do you expect them to do? > > Sorry I did post this many times now. > > Read the GPL > > > see GPL § 2 subclause c) and GPL Preamble, subsection 6) It appears to me that the version they release outputs at least as much as the original cdrecord does, which seems to be what the exception in paragraph 2 section c states as acceptable. It would be nice if they made it VERY clear that people should not contact you for support. That does seem to be a problem, although I see nothing in the GPL (unfortunate really) that deals with that. > >Some people prefer opensource tools for what they do, even if they are > >not as good. > > Other people prefer working software. Well I haven't tried "dvdrecord" myself, I just stick to cdrecord-prodvd when I want to play with the DVD-RW. Len Sorensen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: growisofs with -b problem
> It appears to me that the version they release outputs at least as much > as the original cdrecord does, which seems to be what the exception in > paragraph 2 section c states as acceptable. Seems like a lot of fuss about nothing to me. Jörg could also put some info on his website - many projects name the competition and say a word about the difference of their own project/program. Good place to say "the following programs (list with URLs) are not maintained by me and bug reports should be directed to their authors". Much more effective than one line of legalese posted on this list. > Well I haven't tried "dvdrecord" myself, I just stick to cdrecord-prodvd > when I want to play with the DVD-RW. Try out http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~warly/files/cdrtools/ All done with the latest cdrecord and packaged up: http://volker.dnsalias.net/soft/rpm/suse8.2/ in cdrecord-dvdhack* Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann is possibly list0570 with the domain in header http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
