Re: OT Java letdown
Time to throw in my two cents. Java is the best platform, in my opinion, to develop software for mass deployment since you can "almost" have your hava apps run on "most" of the platforms. Mac OS X will bridge the mac gap in the Java race but I do agree that the "write once run anywhere" goal is not really applicable. Java is like a baby that you always have to take care of If you install the wrong JDK, you get 200% performance penalty or it won't run at all. You can install 50 JDKs on your machine and you lose track if you applicationi is running off the right one. To use Java SWING with IE you need to reformat the applet tag with ridiculous object tags. Most complex applets do not even run on the current mac java implementation. Java gui's layout components are very poorly designed in my opinion. I'm exaggerating a bit but the list just goes on. Even the price point of "free" java tools (tomcat, compilers, ides, etc) don't even add up in my opinion. For example, let's say you want to program a JSP application for a high volume site running off SQL 2000. The server and the editors are free. But, and a BIG but it is, the high performance database driver is not included (we can thank MS for that). So, you pay nothing for the development but pay $1000+ (some charge much much more) for Level 4 JDBC (native and fastest) drivers for deployment. Hmmm...if I went with a "commercial" and close-sourced platform like CF (which costs around one grand) but get free ODBC (native to SQL 2000) driver. So overall, there is no economical advantage even though they might lead you to think that. It all depends on your situation but I believe the java way to deliever html is not the cheapest, not the fastest, not the easiest, and not even the most feature complete. To me, java is like been stuck in the middle. It's never the worst or ever the best in any area. It does everything you need but just slow enough or cumbersome enough to make you think twice each time. =) After just going over the ASP.NET specs.docs/tutorials/sample apps I would have to say that ASP.NET has probably the best feature set that I want, as a web application developer/designer, when compared with CF, JSP, or PHP. Xing I know this is OT but a recent thread, along with talk of CF future support, has lead me to once again investigate Java as a possible development language. Mostly client side... I envision including Java applets in web pages to compensate for html limitations Once again, I downloaded the latest versions of all the Java components started taking the tutorial suggested on another thread. Once again, I have suffered a letdown... Things like StarOffice only run on certain platforms Browser support varies on certain platforms (On the Mac, NN IE run different versions of Java Java JavaScript interaction is very limited (NN on windows) Java is still a little slow on the GUI The effect is that "write once, run anywhere" is a goal yet to be accomplished, IMO. Am I missing something or is Java a universal solution... as long as: you run a win OS you run NN I develop on a Mac, I have LINUX system, and can run a windows emulator. If I want to create a platform/browser-independent application, it appears as if the potential gain from using Java is not worth the effort. Geese... UCSD Pascal was a more-universal solution than Java appears to be. What do you people think? TIA Dick ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: OT Java letdown
I am excited about Java on the server side. I never really liked it for the client side unless I need to do something very sophisticated in the client. Javascript usually covers my client-side needs. But on the server side, it will be great to use CFML as a "glue" to put together the site, and server-side Java for the "application" layer. At 08:09 PM 12/23/00 -0700, Dick Applebaum wrote: I know this is OT but a recent thread, along with talk of CF future support, has lead me to once again investigate Java as a possible development language. Mostly client side... I envision including Java applets in web pages to compensate for html limitations Once again, I downloaded the latest versions of all the Java components started taking the tutorial suggested on another thread. Once again, I have suffered a letdown... Things like StarOffice only run on certain platforms Browser support varies on certain platforms (On the Mac, NN IE run different versions of Java Java JavaScript interaction is very limited (NN on windows) Java is still a little slow on the GUI The effect is that "write once, run anywhere" is a goal yet to be accomplished, IMO. Am I missing something or is Java a universal solution... as long as: you run a win OS you run NN I develop on a Mac, I have LINUX system, and can run a windows emulator. If I want to create a platform/browser-independent application, it appears as if the potential gain from using Java is not worth the effort. Geese... UCSD Pascal was a more-universal solution than Java appears to be. What do you people think? TIA Dick ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: OT Java letdown
At 12:40 PM -0500 12/24/00, Peter Theobald wrote: I am excited about Java on the server side. I never really liked it for the client side unless I need to do something very sophisticated in the client. Javascript usually covers my client-side needs. But on the server side, it will be great to use CFML as a "glue" to put together the site, and server-side Java for the "application" layer. Ahh... that makes a lot of sense! In a single controlled environment most of the issues I have would not exist. Unfortunately, I host with an ISP and cannot (at present) take advantage of server-side Java. Sure wish there were a client-side solution that works: on all major OS platforms on all major browsers integrates with JavaScript/Html/Dhtml allows things like a WSIWYG textarea that can be referenced with JavaScript I don't want to do the entire client-side in Java, just augment what I have now. Dick ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: OT Java letdown
well as long as you have the newest sdk downloaded or installed on the machine you can be sure the program will work. There are instuctions in the info on how to make sure everything will be there. This is how it is in every language you use on the client side. With some programs you need to install libraries, with javascript you have to make sure the client has the latest browser or has a certain type. All that java is there for is to write an application so it runs anywhere provided they have the latest and greatest java runtime enviroment. So unless you downgrade your programming tools you will have to make sure whoever you want to use your program that they have the latest runtime for what you're programming in. I am starting to mess around with it myself and have found that forte is good to develop in and debug in. It puts its classpath in and everything so I can learn as I go without having to figure everything out right away. If you go to www.sun.com there are download links right at the top of the page. Java is a good language just wish it weren't so friggin slow. Would love to have something that we could compile java into a native language for the os instead of the java runtime then it would be faster since it wouldn't have to compile on the fly and we wouldn't have to worry about java runtime. Bob Everland -Original Message- From: Dick Applebaum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 1:13 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: OT Java letdown At 12:40 PM -0500 12/24/00, Peter Theobald wrote: I am excited about Java on the server side. I never really liked it for the client side unless I need to do something very sophisticated in the client. Javascript usually covers my client-side needs. But on the server side, it will be great to use CFML as a "glue" to put together the site, and server-side Java for the "application" layer. Ahh... that makes a lot of sense! In a single controlled environment most of the issues I have would not exist. Unfortunately, I host with an ISP and cannot (at present) take advantage of server-side Java. Sure wish there were a client-side solution that works: on all major OS platforms on all major browsers integrates with JavaScript/Html/Dhtml allows things like a WSIWYG textarea that can be referenced with JavaScript I don't want to do the entire client-side in Java, just augment what I have now. Dick ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: OT Java letdown
Sure wish there were a client-side solution that works: on all major OS platforms on all major browsers integrates with JavaScript/Html/Dhtml allows things like a WSIWYG textarea that can be referenced with JavaScript I don't want to do the entire client-side in Java, just augment what I have now. There is something which approaches this pretty closely right now - Flash: http://www.macromedia.com/software/flash/ We're using this more and more as a replacement for extremely complex DHTML, and it's shaping up to be what client-side Java was supposed to be, without the problems or the complexity. You might want to take a look at this (if you have RealPlayer installed): http://www.allaire.com/conference/ADC2K_harpoon.ram Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
OT Java letdown
I know this is OT but a recent thread, along with talk of CF future support, has lead me to once again investigate Java as a possible development language. Mostly client side... I envision including Java applets in web pages to compensate for html limitations Once again, I downloaded the latest versions of all the Java components started taking the tutorial suggested on another thread. Once again, I have suffered a letdown... Things like StarOffice only run on certain platforms Browser support varies on certain platforms (On the Mac, NN IE run different versions of Java Java JavaScript interaction is very limited (NN on windows) Java is still a little slow on the GUI The effect is that "write once, run anywhere" is a goal yet to be accomplished, IMO. Am I missing something or is Java a universal solution... as long as: you run a win OS you run NN I develop on a Mac, I have LINUX system, and can run a windows emulator. If I want to create a platform/browser-independent application, it appears as if the potential gain from using Java is not worth the effort. Geese... UCSD Pascal was a more-universal solution than Java appears to be. What do you people think? TIA Dick ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
