RE: Ugliness (was Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!)

[clare]

Hi David,
Thanks for the laugh...
clare (who has an orange and white phone, and loves the feel of it..
*and* the hole in the case so it can be tied to me. But I bought it
because it is a little linux computer.)

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008, David Murrell wrote:


I just don't care about the case.

The black is cool, and the black/silver that I've seen in various photos
looks pretty slick, but on balance, I'm buying a openmoko phone because it's
a phone that I can do cool things with. That's why I'm buying it, not
because it looks amazing so I can pop it out at a club as some sort of post
adolescent pre mating ritual display of shiny objects to attract the
opposite sex. If I wanted to do that, I'd get an iPhone. Also, I'd go to
clubs.

--
Cheers,
David Murrell


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Re: Ugliness (was Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!)

[Lowell Higley]

On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 5:58 AM, Stroller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>So please don't be offended but saying "I don't like it and neither do my
friends" is totally irrelevant - come back when you've interviewed a hundred
different people and >they've scored the Freerunner (alongside several other
phones) in a range of 1 - 10 on size, colour, design attractiveness,
comfort-to-hold and so on. You need to establish >with each respondent why
they chose their last phone - was price a factor? features? You can probably
rule out everyone who got their phone "free" from their mobile >supplier,
because the Freerunner's market is those who are prepared to pay a premium
for the features they want in a phone. Now interview another 100 people,
those who >are prepared to pay a premium for the features they want in a
smart- or business-phone - do they find the Freerunner attractive or ugly?
Do they care?


I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with you so I'll just dump my thoughts
and you decide..

I have spent the majority of my adult life in hi-tech, and much of that in
product marketing.  My specialty has been taking "engineering driven"
projects and turning them into actual market driven products.  I have come
into multi-million dollar projects and bet the engineering team a month's
salary that they would sell less than "x" products.  Why? Because they had
NO clue what the customers wanted.  They just built what THEY wanted.  Each
time I made that bet, I won.  No, I never collected the money but my point
was made.

When I see a product I like and it doesn't seem to have "marketing polish" I
do a little informal research. I ask various people what they think.  These
people aren't my friends.  Ok, some of them are but not many.  No, it isn't
a full focus group but I have learned over the years as a professional
marketer than I can get a pretty good idea of how a product would sell based
on the feedback I get from my little research projects.  Just informal chats
with people on their likes and dislikes.  There was a statement someone made
earlier about us techie types forcing complex phones with unwanted features
down people's throats.  VERY true statement.  Unfortunately, the FreeRunner
Consumer Edition will have to fight products like the iPhone head to head.
Consumers see the "bling" of the iPhone and have very high expectations, all
based on cosmetcis and the "wow" factor.  To make matters even worse, if you
can't get the FCE (FreeRunner Consumer Edition) into the phone shops
(Orange, TMobile, etc.) it will never sell big numbers.  In Europe I think
there is a better chance of that happening.  In the US, the carriers LOVE
their closed, crippled phones.  The deck is stacked against Openmoko ever
making inroads as a major Treo, Blackberry or iPhone alternative.  Maybe
this niche market it perfect for them?

To me, FreeRunner has the smell of being an engineering driven project.
Shawn has put a lot of effort in making it marketing driven but I don't see
the conclusive results. (Forgive me Shawn)  I do acknowledge at this point
that we are NOT targeting consumers.  That's ok.  But if we all want this
product to REALLY succeed, we have to at some point.  Who knows, perhaps
Shawn has a business case that involves just the niche market of hobbiests
and developers such as ourselves. At one point I asked on this list how the
design was derived.  I received no response from the core team but did get a
heresay response that a company approached FIC to make a prototype, which
they did.  That company then decided not to go forward, Shawn got a hold of
the prototype and Openmoko was born.  If that story is true, I don't see any
overt marketing involved there on FIC's part.

Marketing is much more than holding focus groups and creating sales copy.
There is competitive analysis, business cases, marketing requirements,
"negotiating" with engineering over the final product, schedule.. and the
list goes on.  My point is, as I look at things and put the picture
together, I see no strong marketing presence in the FreeRunner.  Where's the
MRD?  Where's the focus group?  Where's the business case?  I'm not saying
this to throw dirt on the Openmoko project, just to point out that there is
a LOT of work involved on the part of marketing.  Most of it we never see
and perhaps we shouldn't.

Let's look at this another way.. I have spent most of my professional life
in Silicon Valley... Home of Apple, Netscape, Google, and Yahoo,  Between
1998 and 2001, I received invites almost weekly to interview with some new
startup.  Sometimes I would accept and go talk to them.  In two years, I
probably interviewed with 15 companies.  I would always insist on talking
with the Director of Engineering (or whatever his title was) prior to
talking offer, etc.  I would always ask the same question.  "Why do you want
to hire a Marketing Manager?"  The first 14 companies responded with
something like "Because our venture funding says we have to."  If I pressed
th

Re: Ugliness (was Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!)

[Schmidt András]

Stroller wrote:

Hi there,

I fixed your top-posting problem for you. You can see the correct 
posting order at the bottom of this message.



On 26 Apr 2008, at 12:44, Schmidt András wrote:

Stroller wrote:


On 25 Apr 2008, at 16:25, Lowell Higley wrote:

Nine out of ten "typical consumers" I show it to think it's ugly 
and wouldn't buy it because of looks alone.  If I show it to a 
techie type, I get the "what are the specs?" question.  Lesson?  To 
the consumer, beauty is only skin deep.


...
At the end of the day, there are a hundred mobile phone designs on 
the market - and for probably this reason. Substantially all mobile 
phones do the same thing - make & receive calls - and I guess 
appearance is a primary differentiation. If your one consumer in ten 
finds the Freerunner acceptable (or even, shudder!, attractive) 
enough to that they'll buy it, then Freerunner surely has a far 
greater market interest than most mobiles! It's all a matter of 
taste and I'll bet there are very few phones on the market which 
would be _universally_ considered non-ugly.


I myself and all people I talked to think that that the black one has 
no style. Also the orange-white looks cool.


It is not a blocker for me but would be for an average user who is 
not Open fan.


Fancy color case is a must in the future.


Perhaps I didn't make my point very clearly. You are an individual, 
and there are about 6,500,000,000 other individuals just like you, 
except with slightly differing tastes.


If you take all the other phones on the market then "yourself and all 
people you talk to" will also think that almost all of them "have no 
style". This is the nature of individual taste. For each & every 
person there's a mobile phone (painter, musician, design of rug) that 
is just perfect, and I doubt if "yourself and all people you talk to" 
will universally agree on all these things.


I, personally, think the stealth Freerunner looks GREAT, but I don't 
think that's the most important factor. Yes, the majority of 
mainstream consumers care only about the appearance, but even if 5% of 
consumers buy according to features then that is a MASSIVE worldwide 
market.


I am pretty sure that FIC didn't get an amateur to design the 
Freerunner's case. They didn't get a twelve year-old to design it, and 
they didn't buy an electronics enclosure off-the-shelf from Radio 
Shack .


So please don't be offended but saying "I don't like it and neither do 
my friends" is totally irrelevant - come back when you've interviewed 
a hundred different people and they've scored the Freerunner 
(alongside several other phones) in a range of 1 - 10 on size, colour, 
design attractiveness, comfort-to-hold and so on. You need to 
establish with each respondent why they chose their last phone - was 
price a factor? features? You can probably rule out everyone who got 
their phone "free" from their mobile supplier, because the 
Freerunner's market is those who are prepared to pay a premium for the 
features they want in a phone. Now interview another 100 people, those 
who are prepared to pay a premium for the features they want in a 
smart- or business-phone - do they find the Freerunner attractive or 
ugly? Do they care?


Not wanting to uncover a mound of sleeping proverbial here, but the 
Freerunner's lack of a camera is probably far more important to the 
Freerunner's buyers. And since we can't change the colour of the first 
1,000 or 10,000 Freerunners, bitching about the colour might as well 
go the same place as the "I want a camera" thread - dead & buried.


Stroller.
Please don't feel offended. I have tried to emphasise that it is just 
(some friends' and) my opinion.


I did not state that Openmoko is wrong. I like the business model that 
individual companies can provide different color and shaped cases. What 
I stated is that to sell a mass of phones some fancy cases will have to 
be  on the market. Buying a replacement case will not be a problem for 
users that was the business model for many phones and it worked.


I myself prefer hacking software so I will not create any but may buy 
one if I find the one I like for sale.


Regards
Schmidt András


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Re: Ugliness (was Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!)

[Marco Trevisan (Treviño)]

Schmidt András wrote:
I myself and all people I talked to think that that the black one has no 
style. Also the orange-white looks cool.


I don't agree... Imho the black one is more professional... I loved the 
Black/silver before but now I think that the full-black version is the best.


The orange-white (or any *-white) version imho looks like a kids toy!

--
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http://www.3v1n0.net/


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RE: Ugliness (was Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!)

[David Murrell]

I just don't care about the case.

The black is cool, and the black/silver that I've seen in various photos
looks pretty slick, but on balance, I'm buying a openmoko phone because it's
a phone that I can do cool things with. That's why I'm buying it, not
because it looks amazing so I can pop it out at a club as some sort of post
adolescent pre mating ritual display of shiny objects to attract the
opposite sex. If I wanted to do that, I'd get an iPhone. Also, I'd go to
clubs.

--
Cheers,
David Murrell


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Re: Ugliness (was Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!)

[Stroller]

Hi there,

I fixed your top-posting problem for you. You can see the correct  
posting order at the bottom of this message.



On 26 Apr 2008, at 12:44, Schmidt András wrote:

Stroller wrote:


On 25 Apr 2008, at 16:25, Lowell Higley wrote:

Nine out of ten "typical consumers" I show it to think it's ugly  
and wouldn't buy it because of looks alone.  If I show it to a  
techie type, I get the "what are the specs?" question.  Lesson?   
To the consumer, beauty is only skin deep.


...
At the end of the day, there are a hundred mobile phone designs on  
the market - and for probably this reason. Substantially all  
mobile phones do the same thing - make & receive calls - and I  
guess appearance is a primary differentiation. If your one  
consumer in ten finds the Freerunner acceptable (or even,  
shudder!, attractive) enough to that they'll buy it, then  
Freerunner surely has a far greater market interest than most  
mobiles! It's all a matter of taste and I'll bet there are very  
few phones on the market which would be _universally_ considered  
non-ugly.


I myself and all people I talked to think that that the black one  
has no style. Also the orange-white looks cool.


It is not a blocker for me but would be for an average user who is  
not Open fan.


Fancy color case is a must in the future.


Perhaps I didn't make my point very clearly. You are an individual,  
and there are about 6,500,000,000 other individuals just like you,  
except with slightly differing tastes.


If you take all the other phones on the market then "yourself and all  
people you talk to" will also think that almost all of them "have no  
style". This is the nature of individual taste. For each & every  
person there's a mobile phone (painter, musician, design of rug) that  
is just perfect, and I doubt if "yourself and all people you talk to"  
will universally agree on all these things.


I, personally, think the stealth Freerunner looks GREAT, but I don't  
think that's the most important factor. Yes, the majority of  
mainstream consumers care only about the appearance, but even if 5%  
of consumers buy according to features then that is a MASSIVE  
worldwide market.


I am pretty sure that FIC didn't get an amateur to design the  
Freerunner's case. They didn't get a twelve year-old to design it,  
and they didn't buy an electronics enclosure off-the-shelf from Radio  
Shack .


So please don't be offended but saying "I don't like it and neither  
do my friends" is totally irrelevant - come back when you've  
interviewed a hundred different people and they've scored the  
Freerunner (alongside several other phones) in a range of 1 - 10 on  
size, colour, design attractiveness, comfort-to-hold and so on. You  
need to establish with each respondent why they chose their last  
phone - was price a factor? features? You can probably rule out  
everyone who got their phone "free" from their mobile supplier,  
because the Freerunner's market is those who are prepared to pay a  
premium for the features they want in a phone. Now interview another  
100 people, those who are prepared to pay a premium for the features  
they want in a smart- or business-phone - do they find the Freerunner  
attractive or ugly? Do they care?


Not wanting to uncover a mound of sleeping proverbial here, but the  
Freerunner's lack of a camera is probably far more important to the  
Freerunner's buyers. And since we can't change the colour of the  
first 1,000 or 10,000 Freerunners, bitching about the colour might as  
well go the same place as the "I want a camera" thread - dead & buried.


Stroller.


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Re: Ugliness (was Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!)

[Alexander Köb]

if you don't like the case, get the CAD files, create a new case and
make a business out of it.

regards
ak

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Re: Ugliness (was Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!)

[Stroller]

On 26 Apr 2008, at 11:07, Federico Lorenzi wrote:


On 4/25/08, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

The Freerunner will be replacing a Sony Ericsson P990i
 here - now
THAT'S a phone which could barely be more ugly, but nevertheless  
it sold
well on its features (and besides, ugliness is STILL only an  
opinion).


Not to mention that phone is a piece of crap, I'm sending this mail
from one now. Sure, the keyboard is cool, and so is 3G, but the fact
that I can't really multitask, like run a web browser and another app
at the same time, kills it. ...


S

I'll be selling mine once my Freerunner arrives, and the eBay listing  
will be saying how great my old phone is. I'll be selling it  
"regretfully" and it'll be "an ideal phone for a power user".


Stroller.

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Re: Ugliness (was Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!)

[Schmidt András]

I myself and all people I talked to think that that the black one has no 
style. Also the orange-white looks cool.


It is not a blocker for me but would be for an average user who is not 
Open fan.


Fancy color case is a must in the future.

Stroller wrote:


On 25 Apr 2008, at 16:25, Lowell Higley wrote:

Nine out of ten "typical consumers" I show it to think it's ugly and 
wouldn't buy it because of looks alone.  If I show it to a techie 
type, I get the "what are the specs?" question.  Lesson?  To the 
consumer, beauty is only skin deep.


This is typical of the consumer, though (and of the place the mobile 
phone has taken in the mainstream, of "reflecting" the owner's 
"personality").


At the end of the day, there are a hundred mobile phone designs on the 
market - and for probably this reason. Substantially all mobile phones 
do the same thing - make & receive calls - and I guess appearance is a 
primary differentiation. If your one consumer in ten finds the 
Freerunner acceptable (or even, shudder!, attractive) enough to that 
they'll buy it, then Freerunner surely has a far greater market 
interest than most mobiles! It's all a matter of taste and I'll bet 
there are very few phones on the market which would be _universally_ 
considered non-ugly.


We should also remember that OpenMoko is probably not aiming at the 
"girlie" market, of consumers for whom appearance and daintiness is 
the primary concern. I am reminded of a girl I knew two or three years 
ago who was pleased with her new mobile - it was a small clamshell 
design with a second screen on the outside; the outer screen showed 
the time or, when it rang, the caller's name or number. A screen saver 
was available for both screens - floating pink & pastel bubbles were 
chosen.


When making calls is the only function then I do like small phones, 
but the aforementioned girlie phone had no features that appealed to 
me over any of the other clamshell designs available on the market for 
the past decade. The Freerunner is surely aimed to compete with phones 
based on Windows Moble & Symbian - phones on which email, calendaring 
& media playback are important features (it may even compete, then, 
with the PSP).


The Freerunner will be replacing a Sony Ericsson P990i 
 here - now THAT'S a 
phone which could barely be more ugly, but nevertheless it sold well 
on its features (and besides, ugliness is STILL only an opinion).


Stroller.



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Re: Ugliness (was Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!)

[Federico Lorenzi]

On 4/25/08, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The Freerunner will be replacing a Sony Ericsson P990i
> >  here - now
> > THAT'S a phone which could barely be more ugly, but nevertheless it sold
> > well on its features (and besides, ugliness is STILL only an opinion).

Not to mention that phone is a piece of crap, I'm sending this mail
from one now. Sure, the keyboard is cool, and so is 3G, but the fact
that I can't really multitask, like run a web browser and another app
at the same time, kills it. The FreeRunner shouldnt have this problem
though, with 128mb of RAM.
>
> I could not agree more:)
> --
> Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>
> Join the FSF as an Associate Member at:
> http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=5774>
>
> Free your mind - Open(moko) your phone
>
> ___
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> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>

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Re: Ugliness (was Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!)

[kenneth marken]

On Saturday 26 April 2008 11:07:15 Nick Guenther wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 4:15 PM, Stroller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >  On 25 Apr 2008, at 16:25, Lowell Higley wrote:
> > > Nine out of ten "typical consumers" I show it to think it's ugly and
> >
> > wouldn't buy it because of looks alone.  If I show it to a techie type, I
> > get the "what are the specs?" question.  Lesson?  To the consumer, beauty
> > is only skin deep.
>
> Perhaps, but consider also that most consumers hate cellphones because
> they are too convoluted to use; perhaps a lot of them buy based on
> looks, then, not because they are shallow, but because techies (like
> us) force complexity down their throats that they never asked for and
> so refuse to deal with deciding between.
> Let's not look down from an ivory tower upon the unwashed masses of
> consumers (especially since we are trying to win 'them' over to the
> open way)!
>

sadly, im leaning towards that being a uphill battle that will never be won.
you cant show off openness, but you can show of that new video you just 
downloaded off some service...

> >  This is typical of the consumer, though (and of the place the mobile
> > phone has taken in the mainstream, of "reflecting" the owner's
> > "personality").
>
> To be fair, everything is about this though, not just mobiles. Cars
> and homes and food choices and on and on.
>

indeed, but i cant shake the feel that people are more overt about it 
lately...

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Re: Ugliness (was Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!)

[Nick Guenther]

On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 4:15 PM, Stroller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  On 25 Apr 2008, at 16:25, Lowell Higley wrote:
>
>
> > Nine out of ten "typical consumers" I show it to think it's ugly and
> wouldn't buy it because of looks alone.  If I show it to a techie type, I
> get the "what are the specs?" question.  Lesson?  To the consumer, beauty is
> only skin deep.

Perhaps, but consider also that most consumers hate cellphones because
they are too convoluted to use; perhaps a lot of them buy based on
looks, then, not because they are shallow, but because techies (like
us) force complexity down their throats that they never asked for and
so refuse to deal with deciding between.
Let's not look down from an ivory tower upon the unwashed masses of
consumers (especially since we are trying to win 'them' over to the
open way)!

> >
>
>  This is typical of the consumer, though (and of the place the mobile phone
> has taken in the mainstream, of "reflecting" the owner's "personality").

To be fair, everything is about this though, not just mobiles. Cars
and homes and food choices and on and on.

>
>  At the end of the day, there are a hundred mobile phone designs on the
> market - and for probably this reason. Substantially all mobile phones do
> the same thing - make & receive calls - and I guess appearance is a primary
> differentiation. If your one consumer in ten finds the Freerunner acceptable
> (or even, shudder!, attractive) enough to that they'll buy it, then
> Freerunner surely has a far greater market interest than most mobiles! It's
> all a matter of taste and I'll bet there are very few phones on the market
> which would be _universally_ considered non-ugly.
>
>  We should also remember that OpenMoko is probably not aiming at the
> "girlie" market, of consumers for whom appearance and daintiness is the
> primary concern. I am reminded of a girl I knew two or three years ago who
> was pleased with her new mobile - it was a small clamshell design with a
> second screen on the outside; the outer screen showed the time or, when it
> rang, the caller's name or number. A screen saver was available for both
> screens - floating pink & pastel bubbles were chosen.
>
>  When making calls is the only function then I do like small phones, but the
> aforementioned girlie phone had no features that appealed to me over any of
> the other clamshell designs available on the market for the past decade. The
> Freerunner is surely aimed to compete with phones based on Windows Moble &
> Symbian - phones on which email, calendaring & media playback are important
> features (it may even compete, then, with the PSP).
>
>  The Freerunner will be replacing a Sony Ericsson P990i
>  here - now THAT'S a phone
> which could barely be more ugly, but nevertheless it sold well on its
> features (and besides, ugliness is STILL only an opinion).

Personally I think the neo looks great. It looks much more slick and
refined than any stupid gaudy clamshell that I see a lot of my friends
with. (too bad the software isn't as slick yet). I have one friend who
said that the neo is the only phone that really feels comfortable in
his hand. Smallsmall phones (and iPods, and whathaveyou for that
matter) are just easier to break; they're diamond-encrusted stupid.

And there's no reason Openmoko couldn't appeal to a female demographic.

-Nick

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Re: Ugliness (was Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!)

[Flemming Richter Mikkelsen]

> The Freerunner will be replacing a Sony Ericsson P990i
>  here - now
> THAT'S a phone which could barely be more ugly, but nevertheless it sold
> well on its features (and besides, ugliness is STILL only an opinion).

I could not agree more:)
-- 
Please don't send me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html

Join the FSF as an Associate Member at:
http://www.fsf.org/register_form?referrer=5774>

Free your mind - Open(moko) your phone

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Ugliness (was Re: 10 PACK UPDATE!!!)

[Stroller]

On 25 Apr 2008, at 16:25, Lowell Higley wrote:

Nine out of ten "typical consumers" I show it to think it's ugly  
and wouldn't buy it because of looks alone.  If I show it to a  
techie type, I get the "what are the specs?" question.  Lesson?  To  
the consumer, beauty is only skin deep.


This is typical of the consumer, though (and of the place the mobile  
phone has taken in the mainstream, of "reflecting" the owner's  
"personality").


At the end of the day, there are a hundred mobile phone designs on  
the market - and for probably this reason. Substantially all mobile  
phones do the same thing - make & receive calls - and I guess  
appearance is a primary differentiation. If your one consumer in ten  
finds the Freerunner acceptable (or even, shudder!, attractive)  
enough to that they'll buy it, then Freerunner surely has a far  
greater market interest than most mobiles! It's all a matter of taste  
and I'll bet there are very few phones on the market which would be  
_universally_ considered non-ugly.


We should also remember that OpenMoko is probably not aiming at the  
"girlie" market, of consumers for whom appearance and daintiness is  
the primary concern. I am reminded of a girl I knew two or three  
years ago who was pleased with her new mobile - it was a small  
clamshell design with a second screen on the outside; the outer  
screen showed the time or, when it rang, the caller's name or number.  
A screen saver was available for both screens - floating pink &  
pastel bubbles were chosen.


When making calls is the only function then I do like small phones,  
but the aforementioned girlie phone had no features that appealed to  
me over any of the other clamshell designs available on the market  
for the past decade. The Freerunner is surely aimed to compete with  
phones based on Windows Moble & Symbian - phones on which email,  
calendaring & media playback are important features (it may even  
compete, then, with the PSP).


The Freerunner will be replacing a Sony Ericsson P990i www.cellphonebeat.com/images/p990i_.jpg> here - now THAT'S a phone  
which could barely be more ugly, but nevertheless it sold well on its  
features (and besides, ugliness is STILL only an opinion).


Stroller.



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