Re: [Crm-sig] P62 Homework
I think that everyone has got a little off track here!
E73 Information Object is immaterial.
The instance of E22 Man Made Object {Franco's iPhone} P128 carries (is carried
by) the instance of E36 Visual Item (a sub-class of E73 Information Object)
{Photo of Martin in shorts} P138 represents (has representation) E21 Person
{Martin}..
Should Franco, as a mark of respect, have the image laser etched into the back
of his iPhone then:-
E22 Man Made Object {Franco's iPhone} P62 depicts (is depicted by) E21 Person
{Martin}.
All the other instances of carrier (Franco's Mac, punch tape, polyphone Disk,
vinyl record, punch cards, hard drives and memory card) would use P128 to carry
the digital file and P62 only if the image was etched or printed on the
carrier.
The point of the edit of the P62 scope note was to ensure that no one thought
that a device that projected the images was "depict"ing.
I think Franco might top-up his retirement fund if starts a range of memory
cards with images of Martin depicted on them. I am sure they will sell well.
Perhaps with he could start a range with the second special collector's edition
using his own selfie!
TTFN
SdS
Stephen Stead
Tel +44 20 8668 3075
Mob +44 7802 755 013
E-mail ste...@paveprime.com
LinkedIn Profile http://uk.linkedin.com/in/steads
-Original Message-
From: Crm-sig [mailto:crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr] On Behalf Of Christian-Emil
Smith Ore
Sent: 23 July 2016 11:44
To: Franco Niccolucci
Cc: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr
Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] P62 Homework
The punch tape, polyphone disk and vinyl record are all very concrete examples
of the difference between the carrier and the abstract content. A magnetic tape
be it for computers, music or video (e.g VHS) may also be carriers of
information although it gets more abstract since we cannot see the patterns. On
a magnetic disk or a flash drive the patterns representing/carrying the
information is even more hidden. In all cases it is the physical pattern on
the physical object that carries the information.
In the (early) 1980s "“Please send me by email the file of your photo" would
not have been relevant. However you could get a copy of the file on a magnetic
tape (or a copy of the original punch tape) or using ftp. In all cases there
will be a process of copying the pattern from one medium to another and by this
changing the receiving medium in the same way a laser printer change the paper
by adding toner to it. The paper with the toner pattern is a physical object.
The email + the file will receive your computer through a series of copying
processes.
I think you are quite right when pointing to everyday languages. We need to
use care when we formulate the scope notes. Remember also that the names of the
classes in CRM are just there as a crutch for the memory. The meaning of a
class is in the scope note solely.
Best,
Christian-Emil
>-Original Message-
>From: Franco Niccolucci [mailto:franco.niccolu...@gmail.com]
>Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 9:54 AM
>To: Christian-Emil Smith Ore
>Cc: ste...@paveprime.com; crm-sig@ics.forth.gr
>Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] P62 Homework
>
>Thank you Christian-Emile for your comment and explanation.
>
>If you are right, then the scope note of E73 must be amended:
>
>"This class comprises identifiable immaterial items, such as a poems, jokes,
>data sets, images, texts, multimedia objects, procedural prescriptions,
>computer program code, algorithm or mathematical formulae, that have an
>objectively recognizable structure and are documented as single units.
>[. . .]
>Examples:
>- image BM38850.JPG from the Clayton Herbarium in London [. . .]”
>
>(quoted from page 28, cidoc_crm_version_6.0-2.doc)
>
>I understood that this BM38850.JPG is a file, otherwise what is it?
>
>In my opinion - but I may be wrong - your punched tape, or cards, or my hard
>disk, are instances of E84 Information Carrier; the file is what is written on
>them:
>E84 Information Carrier “This 20-km-long C-E Ore’s punched tape” P128 carries
>E73 Information Object “photo12345.jpg, a pretty and rare picture of Franco
>Niccolucci in shorts”.
>
>Another example: given its rarity, I now expect to receive messages from all
>the SIG members stating “Please send me by email the file of your photo in
>shorts”. I do not think they will mean to receive the punched tape, a bit too
>heavy to attach to an email; rather (its content as) an immaterial file
>attachment.
>
>The confusion may arise from the linguistic (ab)use of the term “file”, which
>is,
>according to my Oxford dictionary:
>
>1) a folder or box for holding loose papers that are typically arranged in a
>particular order for easy reference
>2) the contents of a file folder or box
>3) a collection of data, programs, etc., stored in a computer's memory or on a
>storage device under a single identifying name
>
>1) and 2) are likely to be E22 Man-Made Object and, since we keep it in order
>(well, not always in
Re: [Crm-sig] P62 Homework
The punch tape, polyphone disk and vinyl record are all very concrete examples of the difference between the carrier and the abstract content. A magnetic tape be it for computers, music or video (e.g VHS) may also be carriers of information although it gets more abstract since we cannot see the patterns. On a magnetic disk or a flash drive the patterns representing/carrying the information is even more hidden. In all cases it is the physical pattern on the physical object that carries the information. In the (early) 1980s "“Please send me by email the file of your photo" would not have been relevant. However you could get a copy of the file on a magnetic tape (or a copy of the original punch tape) or using ftp. In all cases there will be a process of copying the pattern from one medium to another and by this changing the receiving medium in the same way a laser printer change the paper by adding toner to it. The paper with the toner pattern is a physical object. The email + the file will receive your computer through a series of copying processes. I think you are quite right when pointing to everyday languages. We need to use care when we formulate the scope notes. Remember also that the names of the classes in CRM are just there as a crutch for the memory. The meaning of a class is in the scope note solely. Best, Christian-Emil >-Original Message- >From: Franco Niccolucci [mailto:franco.niccolu...@gmail.com] >Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 9:54 AM >To: Christian-Emil Smith Ore >Cc: ste...@paveprime.com; crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] P62 Homework > >Thank you Christian-Emile for your comment and explanation. > >If you are right, then the scope note of E73 must be amended: > >"This class comprises identifiable immaterial items, such as a poems, jokes, >data sets, images, texts, multimedia objects, procedural prescriptions, >computer program code, algorithm or mathematical formulae, that have an >objectively recognizable structure and are documented as single units. >[. . .] >Examples: >- image BM38850.JPG from the Clayton Herbarium in London [. . .]” > >(quoted from page 28, cidoc_crm_version_6.0-2.doc) > >I understood that this BM38850.JPG is a file, otherwise what is it? > >In my opinion - but I may be wrong - your punched tape, or cards, or my hard >disk, are instances of E84 Information Carrier; the file is what is written on >them: >E84 Information Carrier “This 20-km-long C-E Ore’s punched tape” P128 carries >E73 Information Object “photo12345.jpg, a pretty and rare picture of Franco >Niccolucci in shorts”. > >Another example: given its rarity, I now expect to receive messages from all >the SIG members stating “Please send me by email the file of your photo in >shorts”. I do not think they will mean to receive the punched tape, a bit too >heavy to attach to an email; rather (its content as) an immaterial file >attachment. > >The confusion may arise from the linguistic (ab)use of the term “file”, which >is, >according to my Oxford dictionary: > >1) a folder or box for holding loose papers that are typically arranged in a >particular order for easy reference >2) the contents of a file folder or box >3) a collection of data, programs, etc., stored in a computer's memory or on a >storage device under a single identifying name > >1) and 2) are likely to be E22 Man-Made Object and, since we keep it in order >(well, not always in good order) for the information it contains, E84 >Information Carrier >3) is more likely to be an E73 > >This is confusing in English: in Italian (and Dutch) a “file” is only a >computer file, >with other words for 1)-2); in German, precise as usual, a computer file is a >“Datei”, otherwise it is an “Ordner"; anglophobic Spanish and French have >adopted old terms to new technology; etc. Maybe people’s thinking is >influenced by their native language usage, and in all these languages “file” >sounds only as immaterial computer stuff, data and the like. > >Best, > >Franco > >PS pretty selfie of myself in shorts really available on request for free, >regardless of its nature as E73 or E84 :-) > >Prof. Franco Niccolucci >Director, VAST-LAB >PIN - U. of Florence >Scientific Coordinator >ARIADNE - PARTHENOS > >Piazza Ciardi 25 >59100 Prato, Italy > > > >> Il giorno 23 lug 2016, alle ore 08:41, Christian-Emil Smith Ore > ha scritto: >> >> Hi >> A file is nota E73 information object. It is a physical object. You may store >your portrait of Martin on a punch tape (of a considerable length) or a stack >of >punch cards for that matter. In principle there is no difference between an >object with a magnetic emulsion and a punch tape with respect to carrying >information. >> >> Yu ma also go back to the polyphone >(http://www.hlxx.de/hp/polyphon.htm) which indeed by many have been >considered to be a heap of scrap metal and pieces of wood. Still it is able to >store information. >> >> Best >> Christian-Emil >> >>> -Original
Re: [Crm-sig] P62 Homework
Thank you Christian-Emile for your comment and explanation. If you are right, then the scope note of E73 must be amended: "This class comprises identifiable immaterial items, such as a poems, jokes, data sets, images, texts, multimedia objects, procedural prescriptions, computer program code, algorithm or mathematical formulae, that have an objectively recognizable structure and are documented as single units. [. . .] Examples: - image BM38850.JPG from the Clayton Herbarium in London [. . .]” (quoted from page 28, cidoc_crm_version_6.0-2.doc) I understood that this BM38850.JPG is a file, otherwise what is it? In my opinion - but I may be wrong - your punched tape, or cards, or my hard disk, are instances of E84 Information Carrier; the file is what is written on them: E84 Information Carrier “This 20-km-long C-E Ore’s punched tape” P128 carries E73 Information Object “photo12345.jpg, a pretty and rare picture of Franco Niccolucci in shorts”. Another example: given its rarity, I now expect to receive messages from all the SIG members stating “Please send me by email the file of your photo in shorts”. I do not think they will mean to receive the punched tape, a bit too heavy to attach to an email; rather (its content as) an immaterial file attachment. The confusion may arise from the linguistic (ab)use of the term “file”, which is, according to my Oxford dictionary: 1) a folder or box for holding loose papers that are typically arranged in a particular order for easy reference 2) the contents of a file folder or box 3) a collection of data, programs, etc., stored in a computer's memory or on a storage device under a single identifying name 1) and 2) are likely to be E22 Man-Made Object and, since we keep it in order (well, not always in good order) for the information it contains, E84 Information Carrier 3) is more likely to be an E73 This is confusing in English: in Italian (and Dutch) a “file” is only a computer file, with other words for 1)-2); in German, precise as usual, a computer file is a “Datei”, otherwise it is an “Ordner"; anglophobic Spanish and French have adopted old terms to new technology; etc. Maybe people’s thinking is influenced by their native language usage, and in all these languages “file” sounds only as immaterial computer stuff, data and the like. Best, Franco PS pretty selfie of myself in shorts really available on request for free, regardless of its nature as E73 or E84 :-) Prof. Franco Niccolucci Director, VAST-LAB PIN - U. of Florence Scientific Coordinator ARIADNE - PARTHENOS Piazza Ciardi 25 59100 Prato, Italy > Il giorno 23 lug 2016, alle ore 08:41, Christian-Emil Smith Ore > ha scritto: > > Hi > A file is nota E73 information object. It is a physical object. You may store > your portrait of Martin on a punch tape (of a considerable length) or a stack > of punch cards for that matter. In principle there is no difference between > an object with a magnetic emulsion and a punch tape with respect to carrying > information. > > Yu ma also go back to the polyphone (http://www.hlxx.de/hp/polyphon.htm) > which indeed by many have been considered to be a heap of scrap metal and > pieces of wood. Still it is able to store information. > > Best > Christian-Emil > >> -Original Message- >> From: Crm-sig [mailto:crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr] On Behalf Of Franco >> Niccolucci >> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 6:55 PM >> To: ste...@paveprime.com >> Cc: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >> Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] P62 Homework >> >> I recently reviewed a (bad) paper on multimedia which revamped my >> interest on the topic. Let me tell you my doubts- >> >> P62 concerns an E24 Physical Man-Made Things, together with P65 shows >> visual item, although the latter is well known to have a slightly different >> meaning. E.g.: a caricature on paper, Mona Lisa, a coin with Queen >> Elizabeth’s >> profile, a postcard of Crete, the photo of Martin Doerr when he was 6 years >> old (yes, Martin has been a child, but long time ago): they are all allowed >> to >> P62 depict. So far, so good. >> >> If today I take a digital photo of Martin Doerr, e.g. with my iphone, what I >> produce is an E73 Information Object, stored somewhere in the iphone, in >> the memory of my Mac where I copy it, in the iCloud where I regularly back >> up the iphone content etc. This E73 exists as long as at least one of these >> physical carriers (E84 Information Carrier) stores it. E84 is an E22 Man-Made >> Object, a subclass of E24, so it is an E24 as well. As such, it is allowed >> to P62 >> depict. >> >> Going up the E73 class genealogy, (E73 subclass of E89 subclass of E28) one >> arrives at E28 Symbolic Object, so the file produced on my iphone is an E28, >> which is the sister of E24, and both are distinct siblings of E71 Man-Made >> Thing. Being immaterial, E73 is NOT allowed to depict. >> >> In conclusion: if now I take a photo of Martin with a film, the film
Re: [Crm-sig] P62 Homework
hello, I know that we have metadata about original image inside of a file with the prtrait. So, they mark which copy is original. If I change size or other changes - metadata will be desroyed. Thus, image made by my Nikon S1 or by iphone -original - all others - copies, because they are a result of my activity titled copying. With kind regards, Daria Hookk Senior Researcher of the dept. of archaeology of Eastern Europe and Siberia of the State Hermitage Museum, ADIT board
Re: [Crm-sig] P62 Homework
Hi A file is nota E73 information object. It is a physical object. You may store your portrait of Martin on a punch tape (of a considerable length) or a stack of punch cards for that matter. In principle there is no difference between an object with a magnetic emulsion and a punch tape with respect to carrying information. Yu ma also go back to the polyphone (http://www.hlxx.de/hp/polyphon.htm) which indeed by many have been considered to be a heap of scrap metal and pieces of wood. Still it is able to store information. Best Christian-Emil >-Original Message- >From: Crm-sig [mailto:crm-sig-boun...@ics.forth.gr] On Behalf Of Franco >Niccolucci >Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 6:55 PM >To: ste...@paveprime.com >Cc: crm-sig@ics.forth.gr >Subject: Re: [Crm-sig] P62 Homework > >I recently reviewed a (bad) paper on multimedia which revamped my >interest on the topic. Let me tell you my doubts- > >P62 concerns an E24 Physical Man-Made Things, together with P65 shows >visual item, although the latter is well known to have a slightly different >meaning. E.g.: a caricature on paper, Mona Lisa, a coin with Queen Elizabeth’s >profile, a postcard of Crete, the photo of Martin Doerr when he was 6 years >old (yes, Martin has been a child, but long time ago): they are all allowed to >P62 depict. So far, so good. > >If today I take a digital photo of Martin Doerr, e.g. with my iphone, what I >produce is an E73 Information Object, stored somewhere in the iphone, in >the memory of my Mac where I copy it, in the iCloud where I regularly back >up the iphone content etc. This E73 exists as long as at least one of these >physical carriers (E84 Information Carrier) stores it. E84 is an E22 Man-Made >Object, a subclass of E24, so it is an E24 as well. As such, it is allowed to >P62 >depict. > >Going up the E73 class genealogy, (E73 subclass of E89 subclass of E28) one >arrives at E28 Symbolic Object, so the file produced on my iphone is an E28, >which is the sister of E24, and both are distinct siblings of E71 Man-Made >Thing. Being immaterial, E73 is NOT allowed to depict. > >In conclusion: if now I take a photo of Martin with a film, the film (and any >printout out of it) P62 depicts Martin. But if I take the same photo with my >iphone, what depicts Martin? Not the corresponding jpeg file E73 in the >iphone (or any copy of it), because E73 does not belong to the domain of P62. >Possibly the iphone memory where the file is stored, which as physical thing >inherits the P62 domain from E24, but it sounds a bit weird to say “Franco’s >iphone memory card depicts Martin Doerr". > >Any solution to this asymmetry? > >Note that both things, the film and the file, are related to the same visual >item “image of Martin Doerr on 22/07/2016”: but the film is allowed to P65 >show it, the file is not. > >Why not defining the domain of P62 as E71 Man-Made Thing, to incorporate >both material items, coinciding with their carrier, and immaterial items, >stored on a separate carrier? when we look at a painting, do we look at the >assemblage of canvas, pigments, etc or we look at the E36 Visual Item P65 >shown on it? They seem to be inseparable, but as digital technology shows, >possibly they are not. > >This may lead to the question: what about icloud, is it a physical thing or >what? It is of course made of physical disks, flash memories, cables etc, but >without the appropriate software all this is just a heap of scrap iron that >can’t >store anything. >But let us keep this question for another thread. > >Thanks in advance for any comment on the above concerns, they keep me >awake in the nights of this hot July. > >Franco > > >Prof. Franco Niccolucci >Director, VAST-LAB >PIN - U. of Florence >Scientific Coordinator >ARIADNE - PARTHENOS > >Piazza Ciardi 25 >59100 Prato, Italy > > > >> Il giorno 22 lug 2016, alle ore 15:41, Stephen Stead > ha scritto: >> >> Revision of Scope note: >> >> BEFORE:- >> P62 depicts (is depicted by) >> >> Domain: E24 Physical Man-Made Thing >> Range: E1 CRM Entity >> Quantification: many to many (0,n:0,n) >> >> Scope note:This property identifies something that is depicted by an >instance of E24 Physical Man-Made Thing. Depicting is meant in the sense >that the surface of the E24 Physical Man-Made Thing shows, through its >passive optical qualities or form, a representation of the entity depicted. It >does not pertain to inscriptions or any other information encoding. >> >> This property is a shortcut of the more fully developed path from E24 >Physical Man-Made Thing through P65 shows visual item (is shown by), E36 >Visual Item, P138 represents (has representation) to E1CRM Entity. P62.1 >mode of depiction allows the nature of the depiction to be refined. >> Examples: >> § The painting “La Liberté guidant le peuple” by Eugène Delacroix >> (E84) depicts the French “July Revolution” of 1830 (E7) § the 20 >> pence coin held by the Department of
