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[Tim May]

On Thursday, July 24, 2003, at 07:12 PM, Steve Furlong wrote:

On Thursday 24 July 2003 15:50, Tim May wrote:

In fact, digicash strongly suggests David Chaum's Digicash,
That assumes the reader or listener has heard of Digicash, or of Chaum.
Not an assumption I'd be comfortable making.
Agreed, making the assumption that readers here have heard of Chaum or 
understand the basic idea of blinded transactions (or dining 
cryptographers, or oblivious transfer, or any of the other building 
blocks) is no longer warranted. I expect many of the persyns of 
peircing now spewing on the list are, like, thinking that's, like, 
_so_ nineties.

As for thinking very general readers or listeners, those not even on 
the list, are capable of understanding Chaum or Digicash, that's a 
fool's errand. The average nontechnical person knows nothing about how 
crypto works, and attempting to explain a DC-Net or a blinded transfer 
is no more useful to them than just telling them the currency is based 
on magic beans.

The point is not that laymen need to understand Digicash, but that 
calling things like ATM cards and Visa cards digicash does a 
disservice to the important ideas of why Chaum's and Brands' and 
similar systems worked.

Hey, maybe it's actually the case that some of the people here who are 
referring to electronic debit cards as digicash just don't have a 
clue about what blinding is and why it makes for truly untraceable 
tokens.


I tend to use electronic money when discussing coin- or account-based
systems, anonymous or not, with the unwashed masses. It conveys the
meaning well enough to serve as an opening wedge to a better
description, and it's general enough that it shouldn't offend the
sensibilities of those few people who do understand the subject in
depth. And it hasn't been gobbled up by any company, so far as I know.
I stopped any efforts to explain the true importance of 
electronic/digital money/cash a long time ago. A waste of time. Not too 
surprising, as getting even the basic idea requires some passing 
familiarity with things like how RSA works. When I read Chaum's 1985 
CACM paper I already knew about RSA and hard directions for problems 
(trapdoor functions), and yet I still had to read and reread the paper 
and draw little pictures for myself.

Thinking someone can absorb the gist via a purely verbal description is 
just not plausible. I have seen David Chaum attempt to do this with an 
audience of computer professionalsmy impression from the later 
questions from the audience is that his explanation simply didn't get 
them over the hump to the stage of realizing the key concept. No more 
so than popularizations of relativity actually ever got the masses to 
understand relativity.

There is much that could be said about whether this difficulty is why 
we don't have untraceable, Chaum-style forms of money (I don't think 
this is the reason). Regardless, wishing won't make it so, and so 
wishing that people would grok the importance of blinding without 
having spent at least a few hours brushing up on RSA and exponentiation 
and all that and then following an explanation very, very 
closelywell, wishing won't make it so.

So it's best to ignore the unwashed masses and their inability to 
understand untraceable money.

More troubling is that so many _here_ don't seem to get it.

--Tim May

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Engr. Michael

[Tony Nduoma]

I work with one of the leading banks in Lagos, Fortune Bank of Nigeria Plc as a 
director in charge of auditing and I am contacting you for partnership in a 
transaction requiring cooperation and trust. 

In the process of our auditing, I discovered in full evidence that a late contractor 
and foreigner with the Federal 
Government Dr. Michael Frank who died some years ago had a closing  balance of $23.5M 
until his death in his account.


It is a policy of my bank that all unclaimed funds from my bank over a period of years 
be declared unclaimable and donated to the as a discredited fund to the war colleges 
for arms aquisition.

My bank now wants any of his relative or next of kin to claim the fund since the 
account has remained unclaimed over the years but all have proved to no avail. It is 
the impossibility of any of Dr. Michael Frank's next of kin  coming for the claim (he 
had no wife and child according to his record)  that I write this proposal to you to 
have your permission so that you can stand in as his next of kin and the fund will be 
subsequently transfered into your account for further disbursement.

I am ready to give you 35% ($8,225,000) of the total while I do also wish to commit a 
larger part of my share into any viable investment in your country with you assiting 
me.

All strategies and papers are in place to make the transaction be concluded within 14 
working days.

Please reach me immiediately furnishing me with your most confidential telephone and 
fax numbers and exclusive email so that I can forward to you the relevant details of 
the transaction.

Best Regards,
Tony Ndouma

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Compliments

[Mike Chukwu]

Dear Sir,
Mysteries has gone in my life, and Life for me has gone in lifeline the 
western part of Africa is where I meet a hell in my life. 22nd August 
2002, later in the night the murderers came without pity, without mercy
they kill my father in front of me.
My father was a wealthy farmer. A rice merchant to be precise. The trouble
began early the previous year when my father's associates
started suspecting that my father is not giving proper
accounts of all the tons of rice being cultivated by
local farmers in some villages. This mistrust deepens
between November-December 2002 when they discovered a very big
some of money [approximately $6.4m] my father deposited with a security
company here in Lagos, Nigeria.
As a result of this discovery and the envies of the
money, he was killed by his associates. Before this, he
revealed to me the reasons of his being hated. He
directed me where to get the documents of the said
deposit. He told me that he enrolled my name as his
next of kin for the deposit, being the only child. He
advised me that I should not stay in the country
because his enemies might equally kill me to reap all
his wealth but I refused hence my mother died five years ago of
cancer.
He instructed me that if he dies, that I should look
for a foreign partner who will help me to transfer the
money into the person's account and the person will
help me to invest the money in his or her country. My
father was killed on 22nd of February  2003 and since
then
I was out of school and went into hiding because of my
father's associates.
All the relevant documents of the $6.4m[six million four hundred thousand
dollars] that was deposited in a
security company are intact with me now.
My name is Mike Chukwu. I am 27yrs old and a student.
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can before they kill me .I agreed to give you 8% of
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the security company and transfer this money into your
account for onward investment in your country.
Please contact me immediately through E-mail and include your telephone
and Fax numbers in your response to enable me send you
all necessary details as regards to the procedure of
securing the consignment out from the security company
and transferring the fund to your ends account.
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I'm waiting for your urgent reply.
Best regards
Mike Chukwu..

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Re: Dead Body Theatre

[Sarad AV]

May be the information provided by the informant was
wrong and it ended up that a 14 year kid along with 3
iraqi  adults got killed and in order to prevent
further outrage among iraqi's,the white house decided
on playing its cards  to its advantage.They didn't
confirm their DNA test as yet-funny.

Regards Sarath.


--- Dave Howe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Eric Cordian wrote:
  Now that the new standard for pre-emptive war is
 to murder the
  legitimate leader of another sovereign nation and
 his entire family,
  an artist's rendering of Shrub reaping what he
 sows would surely be
  an excellent political statement.
 I am not sure these two were murdered as saddam's
 sons (although obviously
 they were, and were no doubt given priority over
 equally worthy targets)
 but as authority figures in the former government.
 That they were also (if
 they could be captured) bloody useful hostages
 against actions by their
 father probably didn't go without notice either.
 However, if strafeing an occupied house with
 helecopter gunships, rocket
 launchers and heavy machine guns after a cursory
 surrender or die is
 ignored, based on military intel (which as the WMD
 fiasco shows is
 worthless if the PR spin department are demanding
 raw access to unfiltered
 intel and filtering, not on reliability but on
 closeness of match to the
 desired outcome) is to be the new standard, I
 suspect a suicide bombing of
 the white house (killing all the staff and the
 shrub) would now be ok
 provided they shouted 'surrender or die' first, yes?
 


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FROM PHILLIP

[phillip weah]

Sir/Madam, 


Liberia,a country in West Africa is presently torn apart by strife and armed 
rebellion. 

These upheavals have led to the intervention of the American government which has 
insisted that the incumbent president Charles Taylor,vacate his position and allow an 
international peacekeeping force to act as a transitional government. 

The embattled president Charles Taylor,has been offered political asylum by the 
Government of the Federal Republic of Nigeria, and he intends to grasp this lifeline 
that has been provided. 

The Government of the United States of America have clearly stated their intentions to 
investigate the finances and financial dealings of president Charles Taylor and have 
also threatened to freeze his personal accounts. 

In the light of these circumstances,the president has instructed me,his personal 
assistant to source for a foreigner who can take possesion and control of a large 
portion of his personal fortune which he has amassed over the period of his regime, 
which is stashed away in a financial institution in Europe. These monies amount to 
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Adequate remuneration will be provided for services rendered by you. 

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[piakotasli]

   
 NATIONAL PETROLEUM INVESTMENTS MANAGEMENT SERVICES (NAPIMS)

FEDERAL SECRETARIATE COMPLEX,

MAITAMA SULE, ABUJA F.C.T

ATTENTION : OWNER

BUSINESS PROPOSAL: TRANSFER OF US$59.5M (FIFTY NINE MILLION FIVE
HUNDRED THOUSAND UNITED STATES 
DOLLARS)  BUSINESS INVESTMENTS PARTNERSHIP .




RE: URGENT  CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS PROPOSAL.

 Dear Sir, 

I am DR. TASLIM PIAKO, 

Chairman and Member Contract Award Committee of the above
Parastatal.Terms of Reference My term of 
reference involves the Award of Contracts to Foreign /Offshore
Multinational Companies. My office is saddled 
with the responsibility of Contract Award, Screening,
Categorization and Prioritization of Projects embarked 
upon by The National Petroleum Investments Services (NAPIMS) as
well as feasibility studies for selected 
projects and supervising the Foreign project consultants
involved. A breakdown of the fiscal expenditure by 
this office as at the end of last fiscal quarter of 2002
indicates NAPIMS paid out a whooping sum of US$836M
(Eight Hundred And Thirty Six Million, United States Dollars) to
successful Foreign Contract Beneficiaries.

MORESO, OF VERY GREAT IMPORTANCE, AS A VERY SENIOR MEMBER OF
STAFF OF THE NIGERIAN NATIONAL 
PETROLEUM RESOURCES (NNPC) . I WAS INVOLVED IN THE AWARD OF
CONTRACTS TO MULTINATIONAL COMPANIES 
TO REPAIR AND REFURBISHMENT THE MORIBUND FOUR NATIONAL
REFINARIES. WE HAD TO SELECT COMPANIES IN 
ASIA AND AWARDED THEM THE CONTRACT. OWING TO THAT FACT THAT WE
THOUGHT THAT THIS WOULD BE 
CHEAPER AND MUCH MORE CONVINIENT FOR US, AND SO THAT WE COULD
HAVE A CHUNCK OF THE MONEY FOR 
OUR PRIVATE USE.

TO OUR UTTER DISMAY THE REFINARIES DID NOT WORK AFTER HUGE SUMS
OF MONEY HAS BEEN SUNK INTO THEM. 
AND ONLY TWO OF THE NATIONS REFINARIES ARE WORKING AT 56%
CAPACITY UTILISATION. AND THIS HAS 
NECCESITATED IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAVING TO IMPORT PETROLEUM
PRODUCTS FROM ABROAD.

THE IMPORTERS WERE COMPLAINING THAT THEY ARE NOT MAKING MUCH
PROFIT BECAUSE OF THE FEDERAL 
GOVERNMENT'S SUBSIDY ON THE PRICING OF PETROLEUM PRODUCTS AND
BESIDES THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT ABLE 
TO ATTEND TO OTHER VERY VITAL SECTORS IN THE NATIONS DEMANDS AND
FULFIL ITS RESPONSIBILITY TO THE 
NIGERAIN MASSES.

THE GOVERNMENT HAD TO SET UP PETROLEUM PRODUCTS PRICING
REGULATORY AGENCY (PPPRA). AFTER SOME 
DELIBRATIONS THEY HAD TO INCREASE THE PUMP PRICE OF PETLOL FROM
TWENTY SIX NIARA PER LITRE TO 
FOURTY NIARA. AND OF COURSE THE NIGERIA LABOUR CONGRESS,(NLC) HAD
TO EMBARK ON STRIKE TO PROTEST 
THE INCREASE. WHICH LASTED FROM JUNE 30TH TO JULY 7TH.

HENCE, TONGUES ARE WAGGING THAT THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD PROBE THE
OFFICIALS THAT AWARDED THE 
CONTRACTS TO REPAIR AND REFURBISH THE REFINARIES TO THE TUNE OF
NINE HUNDRED MILLION THREE 
THOUSAND UNITED DOLLARS US$900,300.000.00.

Owing to the probe that might ensue, I do solicit for
companies/individual that would assist me to facilitate the 
transfer of the funds into accounts overseas.

This money is currently in a suspense account of NAPIMS
maintained by the Debt Reconciliation Committee (DRC) 
IN THE CENTRAL BANK OF NIGERIA (CBN). We now seek to process the
transfer of this fund officially as contract 
payment to you as a foreign contractor, who will be fronting for
us as the beneficiary of the fund. In this way 
we can facilitate these funds into your nominated account for
possible investment abroad. We are not allowed 
as a matter of government policy to operate any foreign account
to transfer this fund into. However, for your 
involvement in assisting us with this transfer into your
nominated account we have evolved a sharing formula as 
follows: (1) 15% for you as the foreign partner (2) 75% for I and
my colleagues (3) 10% will be set aside to defray 
all incidental expenses both Locally and Internationally during
the course of this transaction.

We shall be relying strongly on your advice as regards
investments of our share in any business venture in your 
country. Be informed that this transaction is genuine and 100%
safe considering the high-power government 
officials involved.We have made all necessary contacts and solid
underground arrangements to ensure a hitch-
free and successful transfer operation into any safe,secured and
reliable account you shall provide for us. 
Please send immediately to me byemail the following viz:Your
individual and or corporate 
details,address,telephone[office  home],fax and
cell/mobile/handy phone.

Upon your response we shall provide you with further information
on the procedures. Feel free to send response 
anytime. All enquiries should be directed to the undersigned by
E-MAIL.It is imperative to state that there is a 
strong possibility of funds release in tranches if such a mandate
is made after processing of transfer 
requirements by the foreign beneficiary,this means that the funds
can be remitted in bits but first thing first 
the various applications must be made and approved before any
such application can be entertained. 

Looking forward to a good 

Re[6]:Get the credit you deserve

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Title: New Page 1

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[admin]

Hello there,
I would like to inform you about important information regarding your
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Please read attachment for details.

---
Best regards, Administrator.


message.zip
Description: Zip compressed data

ADV: Attention Loan Officers

[yOffers]

This e-mail is a commercial advertisement from yOffers sent to you on 7/25/03 at 11:30 am PST and is intended to provide consumer financial information which may be of interest to you. If you would prefer not to receive any additional e-mail information from yOffers, please click on the unsubscribe link below. Please allow a reasonable response time not to exceed three (3) days after which you will be removed from our e-mail database. yOffers may be contacted by e-mail at [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
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Re: R.I.P. (was: Re: A 'Funky A.T.M.' Lets You Pay for Purchases Made Online)

[John Young]

Oh, like Uday and Qusay, you can't kill this immortal fucker, 
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gutless have hari-kiried by exiting the battle for well.com 
nutlick where the dead live in perfect, silent synchrony, so that 
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Hell, start a DOA mail list to bitch about how stupid people are
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Nothing wrong with cypherpunks that couldn't be cured, as ever,
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]=; Uday

Re: R.I.P. (was: Re: A 'Funky A.T.M.' Lets You Pay for Purchases Made Online)

[Mike Rosing]

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, John Young wrote:

 The old days, don't believe them, cypherpunks was and is toxic
 to serious makeovers and shutdowns and lock-outs, and, never
 forget that PLONKS are cries of shut the fuck up and listen to me.
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 stay. PLONKERS little-man your wee-wees.

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Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike

FYI: paper on privacy and price discrimination

[R. A. Hettinga]

--- begin forwarded text


Status:  U
Subject: FYI: paper on privacy and price discrimination
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 09:30:11 -0500 (CDT)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Andrew Odlyzko)
To: undisclosed-recipients: ;

The paper Privacy, Economics, and Price Discrimination on the 
Internet, to appear in the Proc.  5th International Conference 
on eCommerce, is now available on my Web page.  I thought it
might be of interest to you, and apologize for the spam if it
is not.

Best regards,
Andrew Odlyzko




full paper URL:  http://www.dtc.umn.edu/~odlyzko/doc/privacy.economics.pdf




 Privacy, Economics, and Price Discrimination 
   on the Internet


   Andrew Odlyzko

 Digital Technology Center
  University of Minnesota
  Minneapolis, Minnesota

 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  http://www.dtc.umn.edu/~odlyzko


  Abstract:

The rapid erosion of privacy poses numerous puzzles.  Why is it occurring,
and why do people care about it?  This paper proposes an explanation
for many of these puzzles in terms of the increasing importance of
price discrimination.  Privacy appears to be declining largely in order
to facilitate differential pricing, which offers greater social and
economic gains than auctions or shopping agents.  The thesis of this
paper is that what really motivates commercial organizations (even
though they often do not realize it clearly themselves) is the growing
incentive to price discriminate, coupled with the increasing ability
to price discriminate.  It is the same incentive that has led to the
airline yield management system, with a complex and constantly changing
array of prices.  It is also the same incentive that led railroads to
invent a variety of price and quality differentiation schemes in the
19th century.  Privacy intrusions serve to provide the information that
allows sellers to determine buyers' willingness to pay.  They also allow
monitoring of usage, to ensure that arbitrage is not used to bypass
discriminatory pricing.

Economically, price discrimination is usually regarded as desirable,
since it often increases the efficiency of the economy.  That is why it
is frequently promoted by governments, either through explicit mandates
or through indirect means.  On the other hand, price discrimination
often arouses strong opposition from the public.

There is no easy resolution to the conflict between sellers' incentives
to price discriminate and buyers' resistance to such measures.
The continuing tension between these two factors will have important
consequences for the nature of the economy.  It will also determine
which technologies will be adopted widely.  Governments will likely play
an increasing role in controlling pricing, although their roles will
continue to be ambiguous.  Sellers are likely to rely to an even greater
extent on techniques such as bundling that will allow them to extract more
consumer surplus and also to conceal the extent of price discrimination.
Micropayments and auctions are likely to play a smaller role than is
often expected.  In general, because of the strong conflicting influences,
privacy is likely to prove an intractable problem that will be prominent
on the the public agenda for the foreseeable future.

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/
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REQUEST FOR ASSISTANCE IN A FINANCIAL TRANSACTION

[MrWilliam Kalumba]

ATTN:
Dear Sir
REQUEST FOR ASSISTANCE IN A FINANCIAL TRANSACTION
 I am interested in your partnership in business dealing. This business proposal I 
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receipt of this mail on 0031-627-105-921.or you can also reach me with this email 
address below: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Thank you and God bless as I await your urgent response.
Yours Sincerely,
Mr.William Kalumba  

Re: Dead Body Theatre

[James A. Donald]

--
On 24 Jul 2003 at 9:16, Eric Cordian wrote:
 Now that the new standard for pre-emptive war is to murder
 the legitimate leader of another sovereign nation and his
 entire family, an artist's rendering of Shrub reaping what
 he sows would surely be an excellent political statement.

You are a moron.

If today warfare means wiping out the family of the enemy ruler
man woman and child and showing their horribly mangled bodies
on TV, this is a big improvement on the old deal where the
rulers had a gentlemen's agreement that only the common folk
would get hurt, and the defeated ruler would get a luxurious
retirment on some faraway island.


--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 THNKT3gL3AwBfoRbW2WZnMNXz8Akom29NnINipEv
 4MdS8qn6JSWbyiQCAy1KLdvD8QUhSGjYrcxLX8RNC

Re: R.I.P. (was: Re: A 'Funky A.T.M.' Lets You Pay for Purchases Made Online)

[Steve Furlong]

On Friday 25 July 2003 11:40, Steve Schear wrote:

 ... Now that many are un-
 or under-employed there still doesn't seem to be any activity by
 those active on this list in this critical infrastructure area.

Speaking only for myself, I'm making a lot less than I was a couple of 
years ago. In the wake of the dot-bomb, I'm working a lot more hours 
just to keep my bills paid. I no longer have much time or creativity 
left for non-paying tasks.

-- 
Steve FurlongComputer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel

If someone is so fearful that, that they're going to start using
their weapons to protect their rights, makes me very nervous that
these people have these weapons at all!  -- Rep. Henry Waxman

Re: A 'Funky A.T.M.' Lets You Pay for Purchases Made Online

[Tim May]

Some lurker unwilling to comment on the public list sent me this. I 
didn't notice it wasn't intended for the list until I had already 
written a reply and was preparing to send it. So I have altered the 
name.

--Tim

On Friday, July 25, 2003, at 01:07 PM, SOMEONE wrote:

Tim May wrote:

On Thursday, July 24, 2003, at 07:12 PM, Steve Furlong wrote:

On Thursday 24 July 2003 15:50, Tim May wrote:

In fact, digicash strongly suggests David Chaum's Digicash,
That assumes the reader or listener has heard of Digicash, or of 
Chaum.
Not an assumption I'd be comfortable making.
Readers on the cypherpunks list? They should be able to understand it, 
or at
least they should have heard of it.
They may have _heard_ of it, but to most of them (I t hink) it's just 
some magical incantations which they don't quite believe anyway.


I stopped any efforts to explain the true importance of
electronic/digital money/cash a long time ago. A waste of time. Not 
too
surprising, as getting even the basic idea requires some passing
familiarity with things like how RSA works. When I read Chaum's 1985
CACM paper I already knew about RSA and hard directions for problems
(trapdoor functions), and yet I still had to read and reread the paper
and draw little pictures for myself.


That's a shame. The 1985 paper isn't on-line afaik, and I've only read
second-hand versions.
First, my stopped any efforts...a long time ago was a comment 
directed at what the OP was talking about: explaining digital money to 
the masses. For example, at parties or other meatspace gatherings. 
Online explanations--here, for example--are another matter.

Second, the many online explanations from the CP list, circa 1992-94, 
are readily findable. Let me go check(20 seconds pass...)...yep, I 
just found hundreds of summary articles from various authors, including 
myself, Eric Hughes, Hal Finney, Doug Barnes, Ian Goldberg, and many 
others. There is no shortage of explanations of this stuff.

In one of my articles, in fact, I make the same point about how the 
various boring versions of electronic money are not very important:

The focus here is on true, untraceable digital cash, offering both 
payer and payee untraceability (anonymity). Mundane digital money, 
exemplified by on-line banking, ATM cards, smartcards, etc., is not 
interesting or important for CFP purposes. Payer-untraceable (but 
payee-traceable) digital cash can also be interesting, but not nearly 
as interesting and important as fully untraceable digital cash. 

There are many articles on why this is so. But, frankly, anyone who 
cannot see this from first principles probably is not ever going to get 
it.

Third, regarding the CACM article, it's been liberated and made 
available online more than a few times. Try search engines. I know the 
Information Liberation Front (ILF) was actively liberating various of 
the key papers in the early months of the CP list...and these are 
mostly archived and searchable.

And of course Chaum's original 1985 description has been redone many 
times, in later papers by him and others, etc.


And I don't think it works at all, anyway...

As it's been demonstrated to work, technically, this is a weird 
statement. Existence proofs are powerful.

If you mean that Bank of America and Mastercard are not offering 
Chaum-style instruments, and so on, then this is not the same thing as 
saying the ideas don't work.

--Tim May

Re: R.I.P. (was: Re: A 'Funky A.T.M.' Lets You Pay for Purchases Made Online)

[Tim May]

On Friday, July 25, 2003, at 02:36 PM, Steve Furlong wrote:

On Friday 25 July 2003 11:40, Steve Schear wrote:

... Now that many are un-
or under-employed there still doesn't seem to be any activity by
those active on this list in this critical infrastructure area.
Speaking only for myself, I'm making a lot less than I was a couple of
years ago. In the wake of the dot-bomb, I'm working a lot more hours
just to keep my bills paid. I no longer have much time or creativity
left for non-paying tasks.
My analysis of the situation is that the peak creative years for CP 
ideas were 1992-95, and virtually no one on the list was being paid a 
cent for their efforts here or elsewhere. Some were students, some were 
libertarians with pent-up ideas about creating actual free societies or 
economies, some were engineers or programmers working for companies on 
unrelated projects, some were unemployed.

The dot com era was actually a desert era...lots of nattering about 
raising VC money, buying other companies, creating grandiose plans to 
become rivals to Microsoft, and so on. Very few really good ideas in 
the 1996-00 era. And then came the crash.

We haven't had much of an infusion of young blood--I believe this is 
closely related to Boomers and Heinlein, Rand, etc. and the differing 
interests of the young people of today and their anti-globalist, ring 
through nose politics--and those who got wiped out in the dot com 
frenzy have not gone back to blue sky thinking. A lot of them seem to 
be doing uninteresting (from a mathematical or first principles point 
of view) Unix security jobs.

--Tim May

Re: R.I.P. (was: Re: A 'Funky A.T.M.' Lets You Pay for Purchases Made Online)

[Bill Frantz]

On Friday 25 July 2003 11:40, Steve Schear wrote:
 ... Now that many are un-
 or under-employed there still doesn't seem to be any activity by
 those active on this list in this critical infrastructure area.

In some sense, we have enough code.  Code exists that can be deployed.  It
may have to go thru the same evolutionary stages the P2P software is going
thru (Napster to Kazza to ???) as security problems become serious, but it
is deployed now.

What we don't have is:

* Patent licenses
* Easy to use code
* Users

Techies can work on the ease of use issue, but patent licenses take time
and/or money, and users take marketing and sales.

Cheers - Bill


-
Bill Frantz   | A Jobless Recovery is | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506 | like a Breadless Sand- | 16345 Englewood Ave.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | wich. -- Steve Schear | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA

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Re: CDR: Re: Dead Body Theatre

[Eric Cordian]

Steve Schear writes:

 Here, here!  This change, if widely adopted, would go a long way toward 
 reducing war casualties.  Perhaps we may even become as smart as some 
 Pacific Islanders whose wars were fought by surrogates, the logic being 
 that the death of one man can serve as well as the death of many in 
 determining the outcome of a disagreement between heads of tribes, states, 
 etc.

While the replacement of the US/Iraq war with Shrub and Saddam in a barbed
wire steel cage on Pay Per View with Vince McMahon announcing is an
appealing idea, I think it is a bit premature to leap to the conclusion
that this is the road map the US is following.

The logic behind sparing heads of state, even though they are technically
in the military chain of command, has to do with their utility during
post-war reconstruction, and not incurring the eternal hate of the
conquered enemy's civilian population.  That is why the US spared Emperor
Hirohito when reorganizing Japan, for instance.

The ability of the US to fight low-casuality war has transformed war into
an art akin to corporate raiding.  It permits the US to invade any
country, destroy the military infrastructure at little or no cost in
American lives, and leave the country's proles and natural resources
undamaged to be exploited by their new Imperialist masters.  If in the end
it can be claimed that the people are better off than they were before,
even if their previous misfortune was due entirely to US economic
sanctions, then it can be declared that the war was Justified.

Of course, this just demonstrates that power is ultimately wielded by the
people with the best weapons, even as those same people lull the rest of
the world into thinking there is something called international law,
while they arm themselves to the teeth.

Fortunately, there has never been a weapons system in the history of the
world that ultimately didn't cost less to destroy than it did to
manufacture.

Force is always beaten by force plus brains, and I am sure the other
nations of the world are looking at the US and madly seeking to construct
a credible deterrent.  The window of absolute US military superiority will
last 2-3 years at best.  What the world really needs is a fifty dollar
weapon that sinks aircraft carriers isn't just a witty .sigfile quote.

North Korea really has the right idea here.  The US threatens sanctions,
they respond - Our nuclear missiles can hit any target in the US.  
Sanctions are an act of war.  The US threatens a blockade, they respond -
Our nuclear missiles can hit any target in the US.  Blockades are an act
of war. This is really the correct method of dealing with the US, and
nations like Iraq are stupid to keep capitulating in the expectation that
it will postphone an already decided upon attack.  The United Nations
should know better than to be continuously baited into playing this game
as well.

The point is, of course, that this isn't some new kind of war where the
Bush family fights the Hussein family to spare civilians on both sides.  
This is George W. Bush thinking his security is so impenetrable that he
can send his soldiers to kill the opposition leader's family, and drag
their bodies around in front of cameras, without having to worry in the
slightest that he or his family will experience retaliation in kind.

Of course, to paraphrase Doctor Who, the word impenetrable sounds far 
too much like the word unsinkable.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law

10:58:

 
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Re: Dead Body Theatre

[Eric Cordian]

Sarad writes:

 May be the information provided by the informant was
 wrong and it ended up that a 14 year kid along with 3
 iraqi  adults got killed and in order to prevent
 further outrage among iraqi's,the white house decided
 on playing its cards  to its advantage.They didn't
 confirm their DNA test as yet-funny.

If it turns out that Shrub killed two ordinary Iraqis, claimed they were
Saddam's sons, and then had army morticians make them up to resemble
Saddam's sons, he will be laughed out of office.

I've always said that you have to talk to people in the language they
understand, and that the only language the American people understand is
dead Americans.

Indeed, Bush makes a mockery of the UN, and launches a war of aggression
against Iraq, based on a Weapons of Mass Destruction soap opera conducted
in the media, and the American people approve.

American soldiers set up check points, and fire at families in cars trying
to flee to safer areas, blowing the heads off babies, and the American
people approve.

Bush slaughters thousands of Iraqis on his way to Baghdad, who are only
trying to defend their country again outside invaders, and the American
people approve.

The Iraqis resist by killing a couple Americans a day for a few weeks, and
Bush's approval rating drops 2 points a day.  Almost half the American
public say going to Iraq wasn't worth the cost.

Americans are finally being talked to in the language they understand.

If the Iraqis kill 5 American soldiers a day for 2 months, it will cost
Bush the election.  If they manage a mass hosing, comparable to the
bombing of the Marine barracks in Saudi Arabia, Bush will be impeached. If
they should manage to kill a few tens of thousands of American soldiers
out of the 147,000 currently serving in Iraq, mobs of angry American
parents will attack and burn the White House to the ground, and feed Shrub
and his entire family feet first into a compost shredder.

Again, it's just a matter of talking to people in the only language they
understand.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law

Justice Department Opposes 'Sneak and Peek' Ban

[R. A. Hettinga]

Looks like they're dusting off their black bags again. Rubber hoses are next, I 
suppose.

Cheers,
RAH
---

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A47236-2003Jul25?language=printer

washingtonpost.com 

Justice Department Opposes 'Sneak and Peek' Ban 


Reuters 
Friday, July 25, 2003; 5:48 PM 

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Justice Department on Friday opposed a bid to ban the 
government from conducting secret sneak and peek searches of private property. 

The legislation, overwhelmingly approved by the U.S. House of Representatives on 
Tuesday, would roll back a key provision of the anti-terrorism law adopted after the 
Sept. 11 attacks. 

If it became law, the legislation, would have a devastating effect on the United 
States' ongoing efforts to detect and prevent terrorism, as well as to combat other 
serious crimes, Assistant Attorney General William Moschella said. 

In a letter to House Speaker Dennis Hastert, he said the legislation could result in 
the intimidation of witnesses, destruction of evidence, flight from prosecution, 
physical injury and even death. 

On Tuesday, the House voted 309-118 to attach the amendment to a $37.9 billion bill 
funding the departments of Commerce, State and Justice. It would be the first change 
in the USA Patriot Act since its adoption in October, 2001. 

The amendment, sponsored by Idaho Republican Rep. C.L. Butch Otter, would block the 
Justice Department from using any funds to take advantage of the section of the law 
that allows it to secretly search the homes of suspects and only inform them later 
that a warrant had been issued to do so. 

The Patriot Act granted broad new powers to U.S. law enforcement officials to 
eavesdrop and detain immigrants. It was passed by Congress and signed into law by 
President Bush six weeks after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. 

Moschella said the law was needed to prevent terror attacks and added that the Justice 
Department shared the commitment of the House to preserving American liberties while 
we seek to protect American lives. He urged the House to reconsider its action. 


-- 
-
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PROFILE FROM THE CHAMBERS OF COMMERCE IN MOROCCO.


I AM MOVED TO WRITE YOU THIS LETTER, THIS WAS IN
CONFIDENCE CONSIDERING MY PRESENT CIRCUMSTANCE
AND SITUATION.  I ESCAPED ALONG WITH MY HUSBAND
AND TWO OF OUR SONS EMMANUEL AND MUKOKO OUT OF
DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF CONGO (DRC) TO ABIDJAN,
COTE D'IVOIRE WHERE MY FAMILYAND I SETTLED, WHILE
WE LATER MOVED TO SETTLED IN MOROCCO WHERE MY
HUSBAND LATER DIED OF CANCER DISEASE.

HOWEVER DUE TO THIS SITUATION WE DECIDED TO CHANGE
MOST OF MY HUSBAND'S BILLIONS OF DOLLARS DEPOSITED IN
SWISS BANK AND OTHER COUNTRIES INTO OTHER FORMS OF
MONEY CODED FOR SAFE PURPOSE BECAUSE THE NEW HEAD
OF STATE OF (DRC) MR LAURENT KABILA HAS MADE ARRANGEMENT
WITH THE SWISS GOVERNMENT AND OTHER EUROPEAN COUNTRIES
TO FREEZE ALL MY LATE HUSBAND'S TREASURES DEPOSITED IN
SOME EUROPEAN COUNTRIES. HENCE MY CHILDREN AND I DECIDED
LAYING LOW IN AFRICA TO STUDY THE SITUATION TILL WHEN
THINGS GETS BETTER, LIKE NOW THAT PRESIDENT KABILA IS
DEAD AND THE SON TAKING OVER(JOSEPH KABILA).  ONE OF MY
LATE HUSBAND'S CHATEAUX IN SOUTHERN FRANCE WAS
CONFISCATED BY THE FRENCH GOVERNMENT, AND AS SUCH
I HAD TO CHANGE MY IDENTITY SO THAT MY INVESTMENT
WILL NOT BE TRACED AND CONFISCATED. I HAVE DEPOSITED
THE SUM OF ONE HUNDRED MILLION UNITED STATE
DOLLARS(US$I00,000,000,00.)
WITH A SECURITY COMPANY , FOR SAFEKEEPING.

THE FUNDS ARE SECURITY CODED TO PREVENT THEM FROM KNOWING THE
CONTENT. WHAT
I WANT YOU TO DO IS TO INDICATE YOUR INTEREST THAT YOU
WILL ASSIST US BY RECEIVING THE MONEY ON OUR BEHALF.
ACKNOWLEDGE THIS MESSAGE, SO THAT I CAN INTRODUCE
YOU TO MY SON (EMMANUEL) WHO HAS THE OUT MODALITIES
FOR THE CLAIM OF THE SAID FUNDS. I WANT YOU TO
ASSIST IN INVESTING THIS MONEY, BUT I WILL NOT
WANT MY IDENTITY REVEALED.

I WILL ALSO WANT TO BUY PROPERTIES AND STOCK
IN MULTI-NATIONAL COMPANIES AND TO ENGAGE IN
OTHER SAFE AND NON-SPECULATIVE INVESTMENTS.
MAY  I AT THIS POINT EMPHASISE THE HIGH LEVEL
OF CONFIDENTIALITY, WHICH THIS BUSINESS DEMANDS,
AND HOPE YOU WILL NOT BETRAY THE TRUST AND CONFIDENCE,
WHICH I REPOSE IN YOU.IN CONCLUSION, IF YOU WANT TO
ASSIST US , MY SON SHALL PUT YOU IN THE PICTURE OF
THE BUSINESS, TELL YOU WHERE THE FUNDS ARE
CURRENTLY BEING MAINTAINED AND ALSO DISCUSS OTHER
MODALITIES INCLUDING RENUMERATIONS FOR YOUR SERVICES.

FOR THIS REASON KINDLY FURNISH US YOUR CONTACT
INFORMATION, THAT IS YOUR PERSONAL TELEPHONE
AND FAX NUMBER FOR CONFIDENTIAL PURPOSE AND
ACKNOWLEDGE RECEIPT OF THIS MAIL USING THE
ABOVE EMAIL ADDRESS.

BEST REGARDS,

MRS M. SESE SEKO

 

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Re: A 'Funky A.T.M.' Lets You Pay for Purchases Made Online

[Nomen Nescio]

One point being overlooked here is digital versus physical anonymity.

The funky ATM (what, does it smell or something?) will allow you to
(among other things) stick in some cash and let someone else withdraw it
using a password which you have sent him out of band (according to the
patent - which I've actually read, more than anyone else here can say).
This will allow for digital anonymity in the sense that there is no
account information associated with the transaction.

Now, it's true that ATMs take pictures of people, so you don't have
full physical anonymity.  But given the limited reliability of facial
recognition systems, especially if you take simple precautions like
wearing a hat and tilting your head down, you can have de facto very
strong anonymity putting money into or taking it out of an ATM.  The mere
fact that it takes your picture doesn't mean that much.

It's also true that the amount of cash that could be practically
transfered in this way is limited to a few thousand dollars at most, given
that the machines will probably only accept and dispense twenty dollar
bills or equivalent.  Nevertheless such payments would be a good start.
The ability to pay or receive a few thousand dollars, untraceably, would
enable a number of interesting applications involving freedom of speech
and action.  Writing custom software or providing sensitive information
could be funded at these levels.

The point which has been mostly overlooked is that this article was
nothing but vapor, based on the issuance of a patent.  There's a huge
barrier between the idea and the implementation.  A cash-transfer ATM
would be a true boon to cypherpunk goals, but it is doubtful whether
such a system will be allowed to exist in today's world.