Re: Coins vs. bills

[Tim May]

On Sunday, April 14, 2002, at 03:59  PM, Malcolm L. Carlock wrote:

> Peter Gutmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>
>>> For some reason the mention of a "Susan B Anthony" dollar stuck in my 
>>> brain as
>>
>> Not being from the US I have no idea who either of those two are, but 
>> that does
>> raise an interesting point: Maybe the reason no-one wants the coin is 
>> because
>> of who's on it.
>
> Susan B Anthony is the George Washington of US Feminism (d 1906.)
>
> Supposedly, part of the reason the SBA dollar didn't catch on was that 
> the
> profile of Ms Anthony was deliberately uglified on the orders of 
> meanies at the
> US Mint.  This being the 1970's, they presumably felt that a feminist 
> artifact
> was being forced (as it were) down their throats.
>
> Someone certainly uglified it.  I remember the coin clearly.  The 
> change was
> admitted at the time, and explained as making her appear "more stern" 
> (or
> dignified, or somesuch.)  A pity, since Ms Anthony in her younger days 
> was a
> fair looker.  Unfortunately, one could be forgiven for thinking the coin
> commemorated The Wicked Witch of the West.

Portraying her in her younger, pre-fame days certainly would not have 
been balanced. Neither Washington nor Lincoln nor Jefferson nor Franklin 
nor...well, you get the point, were portrayed as they looked before 
their later years.

I despise the PC "truth narrative" jabber, but in this case the 
feministas have a point: expecting a woman to be portrayed as a  young 
and desireable woman while the guys on the coins and bills are portrayed 
as they looked as old farts is not kosher.

(However, the real problem with putting Susan B. Anthony on our money is 
that she was a minor character compared to Lincoln, Washinton, 
Roosevelt, Jefferson, etc. It's like calling Crispus Attuck a "hero of 
the Revolutionary War." The old double standard.)

--Tim May
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only 
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from 
the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for 
the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with 
the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy 
always followed by dictatorship." --Alexander Fraser Tyler

Re: Coins vs. bills

[Malcolm L. Carlock]

Peter Gutmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>>For some reason the mention of a "Susan B Anthony" dollar stuck in my brain as
>
>Not being from the US I have no idea who either of those two are, but that does
>raise an interesting point: Maybe the reason no-one wants the coin is because
>of who's on it.

Susan B Anthony is the George Washington of US Feminism (d 1906.)

Supposedly, part of the reason the SBA dollar didn't catch on was that the
profile of Ms Anthony was deliberately uglified on the orders of meanies at the
US Mint.  This being the 1970's, they presumably felt that a feminist artifact
was being forced (as it were) down their throats.

Someone certainly uglified it.  I remember the coin clearly.  The change was
admitted at the time, and explained as making her appear "more stern" (or
dignified, or somesuch.)  A pity, since Ms Anthony in her younger days was a
fair looker.  Unfortunately, one could be forgiven for thinking the coin
commemorated The Wicked Witch of the West.

Combine that with the fact that almost no vending machines or payphones in the
US accepted the coin (and folks complained that it wore holes in their pockets)
and it spelled doom.

No disrespect to Ms Anthony, but the coin was a typical statist fiasco -- push a
technical artifact onto a market that's not prepared for it / doesn't want it.

>Solution: Mint a coin with La Cicciolina (or whoever the US equivalent would
>be) on it.  They'd be able to get rid of at least 140M of them.

...or for that matter, M Ciccone (tip of the hat to Bob H.)  I've had a
sneaking admiration for her for some time.

Speaking of Feminism and empowered females, an article in the 13 April
Economist may be of interest.  Entitled "The Appeal of Guns -- Pinkos and
Pistols" it describes the growing interest among US left-leaning types in guns
as a tool of empowerment against oppression.

The accompanying picture shows a protest sign reading "Rapists Love Unarmed
Women"

A number of women I know have agreed with this sentiment for ages.  It's good
to see the idea (finally!) getting official recognition from the group that
would benefit most from it.

For me, the kicker was that this was reported in The Economist, of all places,
and non-snidely to boot.


Malcolm

Re: Coins vs. bills

[Michael Motyka]

Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
>
>On Thursday, April 11, 2002, at 10:05  PM, Peter Gutmann wrote:
>
>(And bear in mind that a one dollar coin is worth about what a quarter 
>($0.25) was worth in 1970, and about what a dime ($0.10) was worth when 
>silver dollars were still common. Maybe we need a $10 coin.)
>
>--Tim May
>
US $10 coinage. They're really pretty. In non-proof grade they're <
USD100. Not really a circulation coin, more of a gift item. 

http://catalog.usmint.gov/wcs/wcs_command/0,,cginame_a=ProductDisplay&querystring=prnbr;Z13+prmenbr;1000+cgnbr;1100,00.html

The Silver Eagles ( $1 ) are really pretty too. I'd hate to carry around
very many silver dollars considering the price of Ag today ( ~USD4.55 ).
1 pound would be worth about $50. Although modern US silver dollars
carry a hefty premium over their metal content so really 1 lb would be
about $75. No wonder paper money became popular.

Is Howard Ruff still recommending preparing for the upcoming
hyperinflation by buying metals?

Mike

Re: Coins vs. bills: "La Cicciolina"

[R. A. Hettinga]

At 10:10 AM +0200 on 4/12/02, Anonymous wrote:


> quite an unappealing trollop.
> however, the photos did give me quite a chuckle
>
> http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_505510.html
> or better yet in italian!
> http://www.cybercore.com/cicciolina/

...and here I thought we were talking about Madonna Ciccone...

Cheers,
RAH
Who does see a resemblance to Madge in the first picture...

-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga 
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation 
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Re: Coins vs. bills

[Bill Stewart]

At 09:00 PM 04/11/2002 +0100, Ken Brown wrote:
>"Trei, Peter" wrote:
> > Mea culpa. It's been a long time since I read 'Dangerous Visions'.
>
>Must be, seeing as "Harlequin" was published in Galaxy magazine, then
>reprinted in Ellison's  "Paingod and other Delusions", not in DV which
>was an original-story-only anthology that came out a year or two later :-)

I haven't read Paingod, but it was in one of the Ellison anthologies.
If not "Dangerous Visions", then perhaps "Again Dangerous Visions"...
Or perhaps the anthologies were titled differently in the UK?

Re: Coins vs. bills

[Ken Brown]

Peter Gutmann wrote:
> 
> >For some reason the mention of a "Susan B Anthony" dollar stuck in my brain as
> >an "Alice B Sheldon" dollar. 

[...]

> Not being from the US I have no idea who either of those two are, but that does
> raise an interesting point: Maybe the reason no-one wants the coin is because
> of who's on it.  Solution: Mint a coin with La Cicciolina (or whoever the US
> equivalent would be) on it.  They'd be able to get rid of at least 140M of
> them.

I suspect the contemporary US equivalent is Britney Spears :-(

Alice Sheldon was better known as "James Tiptree Junior" and if you
haven't read any of her short stories you have a treat in store. Well,
"treat" is perhaps the wrong word for something quite so strong. Sex,
death, and rockets.  The sort of sf that makes you feel the star-winds
in your hair.

Ken

Re: Coins vs. bills

[Bill Stewart]

>Ken Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> >For some reason the mention of a "Susan B Anthony" dollar stuck in my 
> brain as
> >an "Alice B Sheldon" dollar. Susan Anthony is a person who I've never heard
> >of. I'm almost tempted not to find out who she is or was to preserve a 
> nugget
> >of delicious cognitive dissonance. A world in which governments put Alice
> >Sheldon on the currency would be an interestingly different world from 
> the one
> >we seem to be inhabiting.

Oh, you can still keep all the cognitive dissonance you'd like.
Susan B. Anthony was one of the early US anti-abortion activists,
along with Victoria Woodhull and most of the other major feminists of the time.
Abortion let men escape from the responsibility for their actions

Re: Coins vs. bills

[Ken Brown]

Bill Stewart wrote:
> 
> At 09:00 PM 04/11/2002 +0100, Ken Brown wrote:
> >"Trei, Peter" wrote:
> > > Mea culpa. It's been a long time since I read 'Dangerous Visions'.
> >
> >Must be, seeing as "Harlequin" was published in Galaxy magazine, then
> >reprinted in Ellison's  "Paingod and other Delusions", not in DV which
> >was an original-story-only anthology that came out a year or two later :-)
> 
> I haven't read Paingod, but it was in one of the Ellison anthologies.
> If not "Dangerous Visions", then perhaps "Again Dangerous Visions"...
> Or perhaps the anthologies were titled differently in the UK?

As off-topic as an off-topic thing - but the bibliography of Ellison
anthologies is a deep topic, that raises hackles, and even law suits, in
some places. Try a google for "Last Deadloss Visions" by Chris Priest (I
bought my copy from the author though).

Ellison is also famous, or notorious, for reprinting slightly different
selections from the same couple of dozen stories (brilliant stories
though they are). Sometimes the same selection has different names in
different countries, sometimes (even worse) books with the same title
have different contents.  Or rather his publishers are notorious for it,
I have no idea how much input Ellison has in to the exact content of
foreign publications of his work, probably very little.

The 2 DVs were the same on both sides AFAIR, and anyway I bought the US
printings. 

Ken Brown

Re: Coins vs. bills

[Peter Gutmann]

Ken Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>For some reason the mention of a "Susan B Anthony" dollar stuck in my brain as
>an "Alice B Sheldon" dollar. Susan Anthony is a person who I've never heard
>of. I'm almost tempted not to find out who she is or was to preserve a nugget
>of delicious cognitive dissonance. A world in which governments put Alice
>Sheldon on the currency would be an interestingly different world from the one
>we seem to be inhabiting.

Not being from the US I have no idea who either of those two are, but that does
raise an interesting point: Maybe the reason no-one wants the coin is because
of who's on it.  Solution: Mint a coin with La Cicciolina (or whoever the US
equivalent would be) on it.  They'd be able to get rid of at least 140M of
them.

Peter.

Re: Coins vs. bills

[Tim May]

On Thursday, April 11, 2002, at 10:05  PM, Peter Gutmann wrote:

> Ken Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>> For some reason the mention of a "Susan B Anthony" dollar stuck in my 
>> brain as
>> an "Alice B Sheldon" dollar. Susan Anthony is a person who I've never 
>> heard
>> of. I'm almost tempted not to find out who she is or was to preserve a 
>> nugget
>> of delicious cognitive dissonance. A world in which governments put 
>> Alice
>> Sheldon on the currency would be an interestingly different world from 
>> the one
>> we seem to be inhabiting.
>
> Not being from the US I have no idea who either of those two are, but 
> that does
> raise an interesting point: Maybe the reason no-one wants the coin is 
> because
> of who's on it.  Solution: Mint a coin with La Cicciolina (or whoever 
> the US
> equivalent would be) on it.  They'd be able to get rid of at least 140M 
> of
> them.

The only "La Cicciolina" I know of is a skanky coke whore blonde who 
made B-grade porno movies in Italy and ran for some kind of political 
office. I don't know of a single person who even owns a photo of this 
skank from15 years ago, let alone who would find a vague likeness of her 
on a coin appealing.

But you raise the issue of seignorage on the coins: government benefits 
when coins are bought and squirreled away, lost, pasted into "Famous 
Figures in American History" albums, etc.

The Susan B. Anthony dollar, the Sacajawea dollar, the upcoming Betty 
Friedan and Oprah Winfrey dollars, all are just political puffery.

The way the USG could "force" the conversion from paper to coin is by 
just forcing it: declare that on some date several years in the future 
the dollar bill will no longer be printed and that only coins will be 
issued by the Treasury. Nothing less will cause the hundreds of millions 
in expenses in converting vending machines over...and why should they, 
when smartcards are so common in other countries?

More creatively, the Feds could allow gambling casinos to replace casino 
tokens with dollar coins. (Silver dollars were once very common in Las 
Vegas...I got some there around 1960.) Gambling laws in the 60s and 
later discouraged the use of actual cash in casinos...a formal exchange 
into tokens gave the tax collector better visibility into taxable 
winnings than if just dollars were being won and lost at the tables.

(And bear in mind that a one dollar coin is worth about what a quarter 
($0.25) was worth in 1970, and about what a dime ($0.10) was worth when 
silver dollars were still common. Maybe we need a $10 coin.)


--Tim May
"As my father told me long ago, the objective is not to convince someone
  with your arguments but to provide the arguments with which he later
  convinces himself." -- David Friedman

Re: Coins vs. bills: "La Cicciolina"

[Anonymous]

quite an unappealing trollop. 
however, the photos did give me quite a chuckle

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_505510.html
or better yet in italian! 
http://www.cybercore.com/cicciolina/

Re: Coins vs. bills

[Ken Brown]

"Trei, Peter" wrote:

[...snip...]

what you said is all true but the benefit (as you pointed out) is
primarily to the retailer, not the shopper. All this doesn't apply to
higher-value transactions of course.

> Ken, when was the last time you paid for a call from a UK
> public phone with coins?
> 
> Iirc, most British public phones no longer accept coins
> (unlike in the US, where you have to search for one with
> a card slot).

I think I stopped putting coins in phone booths on the street about when
I started carrying a mobile, which was late 1999 IIRC :-) Later than
most. These days, just about wherever I am, even if I don't have a
mobile, someone else does. Phone booths are on their way out for anyone
who has either a job or friends. 

As you say, they are mostly card-only now - used to be specialised
phonecards (I've used UK ones in Greece and Germany so they aren't
*that* specialised) now they accept normal bank-issued credit and debit
cards.  I guess the changeover began in the 1980s & was more or less
finished by mid-1990s. Some shops and bars have coin-operated ones.

I get more trouble with buying train & bus tickets. The machines try to
accept notes but almost all fail. They are the main reason I like the
new higher-value coins (though of course they are nothing like the value
of the pre-C20-inflation guineas and sovereigns my great-grand-parents
probably weren't wealthy enough to see many of)

This fits in with the thread about deployment problems. For these
low-price transactions buyers prefer cash. Monopoly retailers (as phone
booths were 20 years ago and railway trains of course almost always are)
can dictate how they wish to be paid.  If a PTT wanted you to use their
own cards, you had to. Competitive retailers have to get the buyers on
board.



Even more off-topic  "Trei, Peter" also wrote:
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Go and read 'Repent Harlequin! Cried the Tick-Tock Man' by PK Dick for a
> > > particularly slackless society with this technology.
> > Might be easier to find if you substitute Harlan Ellison as the author,
> > though.
> >  - Sten
> Mea culpa. It's been a long time since I read 'Dangerous Visions'.

Must be, seeing as "Harlequin" was published in Galaxy magazine, then
reprinted in Ellison's  "Paingod and other Delusions", not in DV which
was an original-story-only anthology that came out a year or two later
:-)

Ken Brown

RE: Coins vs. bills

[Trei, Peter]

> Ken Brown[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> 
> Anyway, no-one has yet come up with a convincing reason for me to want
> to carry any kind of electronic wallet for small transactions. Anything
> under, say, 50 dollars American, is more easily done in physical cash
> money.   If nothing else the irritation that you'd go through when you
> lose one and have to get another makes it not worth it. If I lose coins
> I lose the value of the coin and nothing else.  If I lose a bank  card
> it ruins my day.  Even if the card was only good for 50 quid I still
> have to jump through hoops to get a new one.
> 
> Obviously smart cash might make sense as public transport tickets, or as
> a prepaid hotel bill (to hotel owners at any rate), and smart-card
> applications for these things have been developing for decades. (We
> certainly were issued with something like them at the hotel for the 1989
> Eastercon in UK - which I only remember because it was the last I went
> to for some years, they might have been around much earlier)  But in
> general street use - why bother? Even if these putative electronic
> wallets were as easy to get hold of as cash (walk up to a machine any
> time of day or night, stick in some id, type in PIN, walk off) you might
> as well just use cash. 
> 
Ken, when was the last time you paid for a call from a UK 
public phone with coins? 

Iirc, most British public phones no longer accept coins 
(unlike in the US, where you have to search for one with 
a card slot). 

As the saying goes, 'follow the money'. Handling cash is 
expensive. It's usually dependent on hand counting and 
manual change making. These are error prone operations. 
There is also, in retail situations, the problem of the help 
pocketing part of the take, not to mention that cash 
presents a security problem not present with electronic book
transactions. The presence of cash means that you have to 
buy/maintain/use safes, security services, video systems, etc,
as well as pay higher insurance premiums. Vending machines
have to be heavily engineered to be resistant to theft. Night 
clerk at a convenience store or gas station is one of the 
most hazardous jobs available in America. I've heard that security
for cash is a major expense item at the retail level - over 10% of
it's value in some cases.

A system which does not place acculmalate stealable cash  
has clear advantages to everyone (but at the cost of privacy 
and anonymity!). 

Going to a cashless system would save the vendor money -
perhaps several percent. If they passed on part of this in the
form of lower prices, the consumer could be motivated to 
accept a 'smart wallet' of some kind.

> I suppose they could be of benefit to the operators of ATMs. The one at
> the all-night filling station round the corner from me seems to be have
> someone using it every ten minutes or so in the late evening. So, at a
> wild guess, the stock level might be between 5 and 10 thousand pounds.
> That's getting towards where it might pay someone to use heavy machinery
> to get it out of the wall.  Even if it splurts itself with ink (there
> are a lot of stupid criminals out there) that is still very inconvenient
> for the building owners.
> 
This actually *is* one of the ways ATMs get attacked, and the newer
ones have quite impressive engineering to hold them in place.
A smart card based system would actually eliminate ATMs - without
the physical security required for cash, you could as easily fill up 
at any terminal.

> But there's nothing in it for the user. An initially valueless smart
> wallet might be less attractive to muggers, but they just have to wait
> for you to activate it. Or point a knife at you till you do. And the
> more faffing about you need to do (PIN, setting authorisation limits,
> pointing the thing at the reader) the more old-fashioned cash would seem
> simpler.
> 
There's nothing in it for the consumer until (1) some vendors go cashless, 
and (2), they pass along part of the cost savings.

> Now, using a mobile phone as money might sell. People seem determined to
> use them for everything else. If there was a way of transferring prepay
> directly between SIMs it would be used by teenagers (and drug dealers)
> to settle small debts. Maybe they already are and I haven't noticed.
> 
> Ken Brown
> 
Peter Trei

Re: Coins vs. bills

[Tim May]

On Thursday, April 11, 2002, at 04:24  AM, Ken Brown wrote:

> For some reason the mention of a "Susan B Anthony" dollar stuck in my
> brain as an "Alice B Sheldon" dollar. Susan Anthony is a person who I've
> never heard of. I'm almost tempted not to find out who she is or was to
> preserve a nugget of delicious cognitive dissonance. A world in which
> governments put Alice Sheldon on the currency would be an interestingly
> different world from the one we seem to be inhabiting.
>

Susan B. Anthony is a famous as Crispus Attuck, at least in post-70s 
America.

You're not an American or a U.S. resident, so why should you expect to 
know who Susan B. Anthony was?

By the way, she was an advocate of wimmin's rights, equal pay for 
unequal work, "nurses should be paid as much as doctors," state 
interventionism, victim disarmament, and every other bad idea Americans 
ever had. A fine candidate for being sent up the smokestacks, so might 
as well put the bitch on our money.


--Tim may

Re: Coins vs. bills

[Ken Brown]

For some reason the mention of a "Susan B Anthony" dollar stuck in my
brain as an "Alice B Sheldon" dollar. Susan Anthony is a person who I've
never heard of. I'm almost tempted not to find out who she is or was to
preserve a nugget of delicious cognitive dissonance. A world in which
governments put Alice Sheldon on the currency would be an interestingly
different world from the one we seem to be inhabiting. 

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
> On 10 Apr 2002 at 13:43, Sunder wrote:
 
> > I've had several dozen of these (stamp and other vending machines provided
> > them as change here in NYC), and kept only one.

> You're not supposed to keep currency, you're supposed to spend it.
> I generally prefer the bills to coins, because the coins make an
> annoying jjingle jangle and also wear out my pockets.
 
> >They're horrible.  Sure,
> > they look like gold when you get them but they oxidize quickly when
> > handled and look worse than old pennies.

> > Serves the mint right for trying to pass what clearly is a slap in the
> > face of anyone who remembers that the US currency was at one time
> > tethered to actual gold.
 
> Now that everyone knows that even coins are only of symbolic
> value, I don't see why they don't make them out of plastic.

Because symbols work better when they bear certain kinds of resemblance
to what they are symbolising? Human brains are hard-wired that way.
Plastic money doesn't twang the right neural circuits. Who would care
for non-alcoholic communion wine?

[...]

Anyway, no-one has yet come up with a convincing reason for me to want
to carry any kind of electronic wallet for small transactions. Anything
under, say, 50 dollars American, is more easily done in physical cash
money.   If nothing else the irritation that you'd go through when you
lose one and have to get another makes it not worth it. If I lose coins
I lose the value of the coin and nothing else.  If I lose a bank  card
it ruins my day.  Even if the card was only good for 50 quid I still
have to jump through hoops to get a new one.

Obviously smart cash might make sense as public transport tickets, or as
a prepaid hotel bill (to hotel owners at any rate), and smart-card
applications for these things have been developing for decades. (We
certainly were issued with something like them at the hotel for the 1989
Eastercon in UK - which I only remember because it was the last I went
to for some years, they might have been around much earlier)  But in
general street use - why bother? Even if these putative electronic
wallets were as easy to get hold of as cash (walk up to a machine any
time of day or night, stick in some id, type in PIN, walk off) you might
as well just use cash. 

I suppose they could be of benefit to the operators of ATMs. The one at
the all-night filling station round the corner from me seems to be have
someone using it every ten minutes or so in the late evening. So, at a
wild guess, the stock level might be between 5 and 10 thousand pounds.
That's getting towards where it might pay someone to use heavy machinery
to get it out of the wall.  Even if it splurts itself with ink (there
are a lot of stupid criminals out there) that is still very inconvenient
for the building owners.

But there's nothing in it for the user. An initially valueless smart
wallet might be less attractive to muggers, but they just have to wait
for you to activate it. Or point a knife at you till you do. And the
more faffing about you need to do (PIN, setting authorisation limits,
pointing the thing at the reader) the more old-fashioned cash would seem
simpler.

Now, using a mobile phone as money might sell. People seem determined to
use them for everything else. If there was a way of transferring prepay
directly between SIMs it would be used by teenagers (and drug dealers)
to settle small debts. Maybe they already are and I haven't noticed.


Ken Brown



And her smoke goes up for ever:
http://www.mtsu.edu/~dlavery/Tiptree/clute.htm