Re: [Stretch] Status for architecture qualification
On Wed, 2016-06-15 at 01:37 +0300, Dimitri John Ledkov wrote: > At the openmainframeproject EU meetup, it was indicated that SUSE > joined with indication that Open Build Service might be able to use > resources hosted by Marist. > > I wonder if it makes sense to reach out, and see if there are > resources available to use as porter boxes & build boxes. That way > Debian might be able to get such donated resource available on ongoing > basis and hopefully with some hw support. Marist already support Debian with an s390x buildd: ldapsearch -LLL -x -h db.debian.org -b ou=hosts,dc=debian,dc=org "(sponsor=*marist*)" https://db.debian.org/machines.cgi?host=zani Our other sponsors for s390 are www.iic.kit.edu and www.zivit.de: ldapsearch -LLL -x -h db.debian.org -b ou=hosts,dc=debian,dc=org "(architecture=s390*)" sponsor -- bye, pabs https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Stretch] Status for architecture qualification
On 14 June 2016 at 20:22, wrote: > On 2016-06-14 03:06, Philipp Kern wrote: >> >> On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 07:33:56PM +, Niels Thykier wrote: >>> >>> Philipp Kern: >>> > On 2016-06-05 12:01, Niels Thykier wrote: >>> >> * amd64, i386, armel, armhf, arm64, mips, mipsel, powerpc, ppc64el, >>> >>s390x >>> >>- *No* blockers at this time from RT, DSA nor security. >>> >>- s390, ppc64el and all arm ports have DSA concerns. >>> > What is the current DSA concern about s390x? >>> The concern listed as: "rely on sponsors for hardware (mild concern)" >>> >>> As I recall the argument went something along the lines of: >>> >>> "Debian cannot replace the hardware; if any of the machines dies, we >>> need a sponsor to replace it. If all of them dies and we cannot get >>> sponsored replacements, we cannot support the architecture any longer" >>> >>> (My wording) >> >> >> Yeah, but that's unfortunately one of the universal truths of this port. >> I mean in theory sometimes they turn up on eBay and people try to make >> them work[1]. >> >> It also seems true for other ports where we commonly relied on sponsors >> to hand us replacements. But maybe it's only ppc64el these days, maybe >> there are useful builds available for the others (including arm64 and >> mips) on the market now. >> >> Kind regards and thanks >> Philipp Kern >> >> [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45X4VP8CGtk >> (Here's What Happens When an 18 Year Old Buys a Mainframe) > > > Fun story, i had a client who was considering getting their hands on a Z9, > they asked me a few others to go with them to see IBM present a demo of it. > Long story short the IBM guys started a job and literally started pulling > CPU and Mem boards out of the machine mid job. The error log on the OS/2 > maintenance laptop was going crazy, but the OS kept running the job. > > In other words, i don't think a s390x box will ever just die. Really > interesting machines to say the least, hopefully one day i will get to play > with one. The other issues with s390x is that in most cases you don't buy > them. You essentially lease the CPU usage and IBM charges you based on how > much CPU usage you've consumed over a given time. It makes me wonder how > they ever get on eBay. IBM typically takes them back after you stop paying > for it. > In the talk he did say that for that acient machine he was offered subscription to the upgraded z/OS for some small amount of dollars a quarter. There is openmainframe project https://www.openmainframeproject.org/ , which I believe offers access to z/VM instances hosted by Marist colledge. At the openmainframeproject EU meetup, it was indicated that SUSE joined with indication that Open Build Service might be able to use resources hosted by Marist. I wonder if it makes sense to reach out, and see if there are resources available to use as porter boxes & build boxes. That way Debian might be able to get such donated resource available on ongoing basis and hopefully with some hw support. -- Regards, Dimitri.
Re: [Stretch] Status for architecture qualification
On 2016-06-14 03:06, Philipp Kern wrote: On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 07:33:56PM +, Niels Thykier wrote: Philipp Kern: > On 2016-06-05 12:01, Niels Thykier wrote: >> * amd64, i386, armel, armhf, arm64, mips, mipsel, powerpc, ppc64el, >>s390x >>- *No* blockers at this time from RT, DSA nor security. >>- s390, ppc64el and all arm ports have DSA concerns. > What is the current DSA concern about s390x? The concern listed as: "rely on sponsors for hardware (mild concern)" As I recall the argument went something along the lines of: "Debian cannot replace the hardware; if any of the machines dies, we need a sponsor to replace it. If all of them dies and we cannot get sponsored replacements, we cannot support the architecture any longer" (My wording) Yeah, but that's unfortunately one of the universal truths of this port. I mean in theory sometimes they turn up on eBay and people try to make them work[1]. It also seems true for other ports where we commonly relied on sponsors to hand us replacements. But maybe it's only ppc64el these days, maybe there are useful builds available for the others (including arm64 and mips) on the market now. Kind regards and thanks Philipp Kern [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45X4VP8CGtk (Here's What Happens When an 18 Year Old Buys a Mainframe) Fun story, i had a client who was considering getting their hands on a Z9, they asked me a few others to go with them to see IBM present a demo of it. Long story short the IBM guys started a job and literally started pulling CPU and Mem boards out of the machine mid job. The error log on the OS/2 maintenance laptop was going crazy, but the OS kept running the job. In other words, i don't think a s390x box will ever just die. Really interesting machines to say the least, hopefully one day i will get to play with one. The other issues with s390x is that in most cases you don't buy them. You essentially lease the CPU usage and IBM charges you based on how much CPU usage you've consumed over a given time. It makes me wonder how they ever get on eBay. IBM typically takes them back after you stop paying for it.
Re: [Stretch] Status for architecture qualification
On 06/14/2016 09:06 AM, Philipp Kern wrote: > Yeah, but that's unfortunately one of the universal truths of this port. > I mean in theory sometimes they turn up on eBay and people try to make > them work[1]. Hilarious talk, thanks a lot for the link :). > It also seems true for other ports where we commonly relied on sponsors > to hand us replacements. But maybe it's only ppc64el these days, maybe > there are useful builds available for the others (including arm64 and > mips) on the market now. The hardware sponsoring is the main thing that keeps us from making sparc64 an official port, I would say. The state of the port itself is great: We recently even got LibreOffice running on sparc64 (patches not yet merged) and the port is quite popular, according to popcon, sparc64 has already more users than arm64 and some of the mips ports :). If we were to add sparc64 to Debian, we could rebuild the archive within a few weeks. We have one user who has two Sun T2 servers which are new-in-box (NIB), would those be ok to set up as machines for DSA? Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913
Re: [Stretch] Status for architecture qualification
On 14/06/16 09:06, Philipp Kern wrote: > On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 07:33:56PM +, Niels Thykier wrote: >> Philipp Kern: >>> On 2016-06-05 12:01, Niels Thykier wrote: * amd64, i386, armel, armhf, arm64, mips, mipsel, powerpc, ppc64el, s390x - *No* blockers at this time from RT, DSA nor security. - s390, ppc64el and all arm ports have DSA concerns. >>> What is the current DSA concern about s390x? >> The concern listed as: "rely on sponsors for hardware (mild concern)" >> >> As I recall the argument went something along the lines of: >> >> "Debian cannot replace the hardware; if any of the machines dies, we >> need a sponsor to replace it. If all of them dies and we cannot get >> sponsored replacements, we cannot support the architecture any longer" >> >> (My wording) > > Yeah, but that's unfortunately one of the universal truths of this port. > I mean in theory sometimes they turn up on eBay and people try to make > them work[1]. > > It also seems true for other ports where we commonly relied on sponsors > to hand us replacements. But maybe it's only ppc64el these days, maybe > there are useful builds available for the others (including arm64 and > mips) on the market now. AFAIK we rely on sponsors for all ports. The difference is that if we eventually have to buy things ourselves, we can get mips*, arm* or x86 buildds (for example), but we can't reasonably get a s390x one. But that's not something we can change, so as long as there no other concerns, this shouldn't be a blocker. Emilio
Re: [Stretch] Status for architecture qualification
On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 07:33:56PM +, Niels Thykier wrote: > Philipp Kern: > > On 2016-06-05 12:01, Niels Thykier wrote: > >> * amd64, i386, armel, armhf, arm64, mips, mipsel, powerpc, ppc64el, > >>s390x > >>- *No* blockers at this time from RT, DSA nor security. > >>- s390, ppc64el and all arm ports have DSA concerns. > > What is the current DSA concern about s390x? > The concern listed as: "rely on sponsors for hardware (mild concern)" > > As I recall the argument went something along the lines of: > > "Debian cannot replace the hardware; if any of the machines dies, we > need a sponsor to replace it. If all of them dies and we cannot get > sponsored replacements, we cannot support the architecture any longer" > > (My wording) Yeah, but that's unfortunately one of the universal truths of this port. I mean in theory sometimes they turn up on eBay and people try to make them work[1]. It also seems true for other ports where we commonly relied on sponsors to hand us replacements. But maybe it's only ppc64el these days, maybe there are useful builds available for the others (including arm64 and mips) on the market now. Kind regards and thanks Philipp Kern [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45X4VP8CGtk (Here's What Happens When an 18 Year Old Buys a Mainframe)