Re: something related to the soc-ctte
Sune Vuorela <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Developer: Kevin Mark > Date: 2007-01-27 > Severity: Serious > > Dear suck-ctte! > > This developer proposes to register people in a way that is no way > suitable for a project like debian. Please do something! > > /Sune > - I am not a DD, so my opinions don't count FYI, to the best of my knowledge Kevin Mark is currently neither a Debian developer nor in the NM queue. Hence his opinions count no more nor less than yours ;-) -- Kevin B. McCarty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Physics Department WWW: http://www.princeton.edu/~kmccarty/Princeton University GPG: public key ID 4F83C751 Princeton, NJ 08544 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: something related to the soc-ctte
Kevin Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sun, Jan 28, 2007 at 12:54:35PM +, MJ Ray wrote: > > But if they did mean it, line 2 could be "yes. here's why you deserved > > it" which almost no-one will ever accept. Why prolong the flames? > > > Hi MJR, Please do not send personal messages to me via mailing lists. > at this point you would have someone who was flamed and someone who > meant to flame them. This would be a clear statement about the flamer. So? We already knew they were a flamer and need to decide to deal with them or tolerate them. The pillory-BTS would add little data. In some cases, it could let flamers sow doubt about their behaviour. [...] Regards, -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/ Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: something related to the soc-ctte
On Sun, Jan 28, 2007 at 12:54:35PM +, MJ Ray wrote: > Kevin Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > My example of an entry would be like this: > > joe user: you flamed me! > > peter hacker: oh. I'm sorry, I didn't mean it. > > joe user: thanks. > [...] > > But if they did mean it, line 2 could be "yes. here's why you deserved > it" which almost no-one will ever accept. Why prolong the flames? > Hi MJR, at this point you would have someone who was flamed and someone who meant to flame them. This would be a clear statement about the flamer. What is Debians' wishes? To tolerate flamers -- never, sometimes, often, always. As opposed to having people who interact with Debian Developers feel respected as members of the community? The current atmostphere allowed 2006 to have some DD's express wishes to reduce involvment, say things are 'less fun' or all-out leave the project. cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal |mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/| | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: subkeys.pgp.net | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: something related to the soc-ctte
Kevin Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > My example of an entry would be like this: > joe user: you flamed me! > peter hacker: oh. I'm sorry, I didn't mean it. > joe user: thanks. [...] But if they did mean it, line 2 could be "yes. here's why you deserved it" which almost no-one will ever accept. Why prolong the flames? Regards, -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/ Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: something related to the soc-ctte
On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 11:41:30AM -0500, Kevin Mark wrote: > > After reading about various issues that arise in Debian on a social level, I > > thought about a possible solution: a Developer BTS. This would be modeled > > upon > > a mixture of the packages bts and Ebay seller comments. > For what ever reason I thought it was a good idea at the time, it > appears folks think its totally evil. I never thought of ebay sellers > comments as evil. But in any case, I shall not purse any future ideas on > this path. It's not actually too evil, but it's sufficiently bad to be avoided. The difference between such a semi-automatic bug tracking system and a committee processing of a problem is that the latter won't really be susceptible to hit'n'run abuse, semi-random insults and whatever subjective nonsense could reasonably be expected to plague a more automated system. This is no different for a technical committee than it is for a social committee - a complaint lodged before the entity will have to come with context, be discussed rationally and at considerable length, and a decision made about it, closing the issue. In the hypothetical situation where someone gets google'd years after a problem, it's not really different whether the problem was a technical or a social matter, because it would still not be some random bashing. Whereas if it was a page with gobs of assorted and potentially unsubstantiated accusations, that wouldn't really be good to have. -- 2. That which causes joy or happiness. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: something related to the soc-ctte
On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 10:58:34PM +0200, Kalle Kivimaa wrote: > Kevin Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > myriad flamewars and personal insults. Are they not examples of poor > > social skills and are they not part of the great memory called the > > internet? > > To me, there is a big difference in having various flammable > discussions, including suggestions to the removal of a persion, in > various mailing lists, and having a dedicated repository for such an > information. This may be a thin and arbitary difference, I admit, and > I'm still thinking about my position on this. > > > If that person resolved the bad interactions, this would be reflected in > > this post. Resolving social issue is a good thing. And the interaction > > would contained in this report, not on a list that is usually searched > > and cached like google. > > Yes, resolving an issue is a good thing. But, let me take a real-life > example of what would be stored in the BTS/archive: It would contain > something like two years worth of flammable mails and various > arbitration attempts between a developer and a team (Sven vs. d-i), > with no real solution. Now, do you feel that it would be OK to have > that flame war available to a prospective employer of Sven? At the > moment a prospective employee would have to wade through loads of > Internet pages (Google search for "Sven Luther Debian" does not return > anything negative). Hi, the alternative would be a system where each individual would have to log in to access a page that contained only their exchanges. With the possible exception of a superuser like soc-ctte-user and leader. So this would be a closed system. One of only a few in Debian. There is also the possible inclusion of anti-search engine tags so that the pages would not be searched by compliant spiders. hmm. I did google "debian sven luther behavior" and found a few choice bits including an issue of linux-magazine [0] which hilights Sven and the social issues of Debian in 2006. "debian sven luther removal" also has hits. The info is there and the differnce is the ease in getting it. I'd also really like to believe that a tech company would examine the technical excellance of a candidate and their positve respective contributions to any volunteer effort including Debian. cheers, K [0] https://www.linux-magazine.com/issue/68/Free_Software_Projects.pdf -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal |mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/| | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: subkeys.pgp.net | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: something related to the soc-ctte
Kevin Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > myriad flamewars and personal insults. Are they not examples of poor > social skills and are they not part of the great memory called the > internet? To me, there is a big difference in having various flammable discussions, including suggestions to the removal of a persion, in various mailing lists, and having a dedicated repository for such an information. This may be a thin and arbitary difference, I admit, and I'm still thinking about my position on this. > If that person resolved the bad interactions, this would be reflected in > this post. Resolving social issue is a good thing. And the interaction > would contained in this report, not on a list that is usually searched > and cached like google. Yes, resolving an issue is a good thing. But, let me take a real-life example of what would be stored in the BTS/archive: It would contain something like two years worth of flammable mails and various arbitration attempts between a developer and a team (Sven vs. d-i), with no real solution. Now, do you feel that it would be OK to have that flame war available to a prospective employer of Sven? At the moment a prospective employee would have to wade through loads of Internet pages (Google search for "Sven Luther Debian" does not return anything negative). -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: something related to the soc-ctte
On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 08:16:06PM +0200, Kalle Kivimaa wrote: > Kevin Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > the tech ctte seems to have people use regular email address and > > discusses things in public, will the soc-ctte be different? My > > idea you say is bad because it follows something like the tech-ctte in > > this regard, as I see it, which is the basis for the soc-ctte, so far. > > Is that accurate? > > The issues the ctte discusses are technical and reflect the person's > technical decisions. The issues are mostly "should maintainer A do X > or Y". The issues a social committee would discuss are social and > reflect a person's social skills. The issues would be "should > we take some action on maintainer A for doing X." I find these two > areas very different. YMMV, of course. > > Granted, now that I've thought about it, you could always say that a > public mailing list would be the same thing as a BTS pseudo package. > Is having a repository of people having at one point of their life > poor social skills as defined by the Debian project a good thing? Debian seems to have all of its discussion in the open. These include myriad flamewars and personal insults. Are they not examples of poor social skills and are they not part of the great memory called the internet? My example of an entry would be like this: joe user: you flamed me! peter hacker: oh. I'm sorry, I didn't mean it. joe user: thanks. If that person resolved the bad interactions, this would be reflected in this post. Resolving social issue is a good thing. And the interaction would contained in this report, not on a list that is usually searched and cached like google. HTH, K -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal |mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/| | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: subkeys.pgp.net | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: something related to the soc-ctte
Kevin Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > the tech ctte seems to have people use regular email address and > discusses things in public, will the soc-ctte be different? My > idea you say is bad because it follows something like the tech-ctte in > this regard, as I see it, which is the basis for the soc-ctte, so far. > Is that accurate? The issues the ctte discusses are technical and reflect the person's technical decisions. The issues are mostly "should maintainer A do X or Y". The issues a social committee would discuss are social and reflect a person's social skills. The issues would be "should we take some action on maintainer A for doing X." I find these two areas very different. YMMV, of course. Granted, now that I've thought about it, you could always say that a public mailing list would be the same thing as a BTS pseudo package. Is having a repository of people having at one point of their life poor social skills as defined by the Debian project a good thing? -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: something related to the soc-ctte
On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 07:04:59PM +0200, Kalle Kivimaa wrote: > Kevin Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > For what ever reason I thought it was a good idea at the time, it > > appears folks think its totally evil. I never thought of ebay sellers > > comments as evil. But in any case, I shall not purse any future ideas on > > this path. > > In eBay you don't have to give your name, so it is difficult to > connect you to any pseudonym there. In Debian it is trivial to connect > a developer to a real-life persona. See the difference? Hi Kalle, the tech ctte seems to have people use regular email address and discusses things in public, will the soc-ctte be different? My idea you say is bad because it follows something like the tech-ctte in this regard, as I see it, which is the basis for the soc-ctte, so far. Is that accurate? confused, K -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal |mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/| | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: subkeys.pgp.net | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: something related to the soc-ctte
On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 06:12:43PM +0100, Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt wrote: > Kevin Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 03:26:52AM -0500, Kevin Mark wrote: > >> After reading about various issues that arise in Debian on a social level, > >> I > >> thought about a possible solution: a Developer BTS. This would be modeled > >> upon > >> a mixture of the packages bts and Ebay seller comments. > > For what ever reason I thought it was a good idea at the time, it > > appears folks think its totally evil. I never thought of ebay sellers > > comments as evil. > > The difference is that in such a Developer BTS, only negative issues > would be displayed. Ebay seller comments are mostly accepted - as > long as the comments are positive. > Hi Marc, I did mention that I though that most of the things should be private and viewable by only a few people, if that makes a difference. Although Debian seems to usually say that it doesnt like to hide stuff from its users with the exception of Debian-private. thanks for providing a comment that doesnt require asbestos or chain-mail to read. Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal |mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/| | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: subkeys.pgp.net | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: something related to the soc-ctte
Kevin Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > For what ever reason I thought it was a good idea at the time, it > appears folks think its totally evil. I never thought of ebay sellers > comments as evil. But in any case, I shall not purse any future ideas on > this path. In eBay you don't have to give your name, so it is difficult to connect you to any pseudonym there. In Debian it is trivial to connect a developer to a real-life persona. See the difference? -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: something related to the soc-ctte
Kevin Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 03:26:52AM -0500, Kevin Mark wrote: >> After reading about various issues that arise in Debian on a social level, I >> thought about a possible solution: a Developer BTS. This would be modeled >> upon >> a mixture of the packages bts and Ebay seller comments. > For what ever reason I thought it was a good idea at the time, it > appears folks think its totally evil. I never thought of ebay sellers > comments as evil. The difference is that in such a Developer BTS, only negative issues would be displayed. Ebay seller comments are mostly accepted - as long as the comments are positive. Marc -- Fachbegriffe der Informatik - Einfach erklärt 158: Geisterfahrer Gegenrichtungsfahrbahnbenutzer (Burkhardt Schröder) pgprrH8vc2GT3.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: something related to the soc-ctte
On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 03:26:52AM -0500, Kevin Mark wrote: > Hi *, > After reading about various issues that arise in Debian on a social level, I > thought about a possible solution: a Developer BTS. This would be modeled upon > a mixture of the packages bts and Ebay seller comments. For what ever reason I thought it was a good idea at the time, it appears folks think its totally evil. I never thought of ebay sellers comments as evil. But in any case, I shall not purse any future ideas on this path. -K -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal |mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/| | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: subkeys.pgp.net | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: something related to the soc-ctte
At 1169904235 time_t, Sune Vuorela wrote: > /Sune > - I am not a DD, so my opinions don't count Fine. I wish some might say: - I am a moron, so my opinions don't count Cheers, -- Julien Danjou .''`. Debian Developer : :' : http://julien.danjou.info `. `' http://people.debian.org/~acid `- 9A0D 5FD9 EB42 22F6 8974 C95C A462 B51E C2FE E5CD signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: something related to the soc-ctte
Sune Vuorela wrote: > - I am not a DD, so my opinions don't count FWIW, that's wrong. Your opinions do count. Regards, Joey -- MIME - broken solution for a broken design. -- Ralf Baechle -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: something related to the soc-ctte
Developer: Kevin Mark Date: 2007-01-27 Severity: Serious Dear suck-ctte! This developer proposes to register people in a way that is no way suitable for a project like debian. Please do something! /Sune - I am not a DD, so my opinions don't count -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: something related to the soc-ctte
Kevin Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > After reading about various issues that arise in Debian on a social level, I > thought about a possible solution: a Developer BTS. This would, in effect, be a centralized black-list database. I'm against any such system. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: something related to the soc-ctte
Hi! * Kevin Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070127 09:26]: > After reading about various issues that arise in Debian on a social level, I > thought about a possible solution: a Developer BTS. [..] Reminds me of a thing we had here in europe... It was called "pillory" and didn't worked out very well. Yours sincerely, Alexander signature.asc Description: Digital signature
something related to the soc-ctte
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi *, After reading about various issues that arise in Debian on a social level, I thought about a possible solution: a Developer BTS. This would be modeled upon a mixture of the packages bts and Ebay seller comments. In it, each developers would get a 'Developer page' where people could file non-technical bugs against a developer. Ebay has feedback pages where perspective buyers can see what past buyers have said about this person like if they had any shipping problems, if an item was damaged, etc. I image that a developer bug would fall is to various catagories and severities in a similar fashion to packages. So that someone (be it the DPL, other Debian devels, or bug reporters) could see if this person treated a past person like he/she was treated. This would be used to show a pattern of behaviour as opposed to someone doing something one time and having consequences. It also could be used to show areas of improvement where a developer might need some remediation to help them fit in better in the community. There is also the opposite, where people could give praise for very good interaction. One of the implemtation details that is not very clear to me is about which aspects of this should be private (eg. email address of sender, all comments, viewable by the dev only, viewable by the DPL only, etc.) if at all, in accordance to Debian's usual openness. And like the BTS, developer bugs could have 'moreinfo', 'done', 'wontfix'. This would be a way to provide communication between 2 people to possibly resolve an issue and 'done' would indicate the issue being resolved while 'wontfix' would indicate an unresolvable problem. here are possible example of severities: critical: person physically assaults others in RL grave: person is verbally argumentative with people in RL serious: person refuses work with me because of person issues important: person uses sexists or racist language normal: person make verbal attacks of a personal nature minor: person sometimes uses curse words This is only an example but probably not very good or complete. This would be a way to monitor the social health of the Developer community and could be used as a tool for something like a soc-ctte or the DPL. cheers, Kev ps. if I could implement this, I would but coding a hundred lines of perl does not qualify me to create a bts suitable for 1000 developers. I leave more complex things to those who can do it. A bird can fly, but a fly can not bird. - -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal |mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/| | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: subkeys.pgp.net | my NPO: cfsg.org | -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFuwzMv8UcC1qRZVMRAgmIAKCT5gV5I/WMsAfLI5SJo65OLLicEwCeItwp TTNFg7UIH+Socud5XS1e1Ds= =iwfD -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
