Re: First impressions on installing Debian 1.3 (and an idea!)
On Tue, Jun 24, 1997 at 03:23:53PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The only Kernel that would *have* to have Java support compiled in would be the one on the rescue disks. The system could install a different kernel that would not have JAVA support. Java support in the Linux kernel doesn't run Java binaries itself, it just knows to start up the JDK java interpreter (/usr/bin/java or whatever) if you run a Java binary. Something like perl is just as platform-inspecific mostly. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt, StudIEAust[EMAIL PROTECTED] Student, computer science computer systems engineering.3rd year, RMIT. http://hamish.home.ml.org/ (PGP key here) CPOM: [ ] 48% The opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth. --Bohr -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: First impressions on installing Debian 1.3 (and an idea!)
On Jun 24, Peter S Galbraith wrote Another question: There are many upgrades to make to use a 2.1.X kernels. Are there Debian packages to do these upgrades? (I have an IDE/ATAPI PD-CD; I need 2.1.X if I ever want to see the PD side working.) -- The 2.1.X kernels come with a list (Documentation/Upgrading.txt ?) of packages to upgrade in order to build/run them. I've recently checked that list and found all of those packages already installed in my system (I use the unstable distribution and update daily). There is no official policy requirement for developers to support upgrades for use of development kernels, but the unstable stuff (and project/experimental) tends to be on the bleeding edge. HTH, Ray -- Tevens ben ik van mening dat Nederland overdekt dient te worden. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
First impressions on installing Debian 1.3
These are my first impressions, feel free to just delete this post. From a guy who has used Linux since 1993 or so, I found the installation to be non-trivial: - The use of a single boot disk didn't help me with my Adaptec SCSI card. I *think* there are alternative kernels in some directory, but none were found on my TRI-linux CD. - I think standard Unix jargon should be included as well as more accessible language. For example, I didn't realise that `initialize a disk' meant to reformat it's filesystem, deleting everything on the disk. - I didn't really like the interface of dselect. It's easy to get lost in there. Perhaps changing the background colour according to the context? (different background colour during conflict resolution; this package suggests this other (in blue foreground); this package conflicts altogether (in red)). I know dselect has a terrible complicated job to do. That's why i think it deserved a bit more polish. After all, it's the first reall interaction a user gets with Debian. - dselect wouln't `install' because the teTeX packages appeared to be damaged. Problem persisted even when the offending packages were deselected, until I quit and restarted dselect. This was quite aggravating. - After X was installed it wouln't start because /dev/tty0 didn't exist. - Once started, very few fvwm95 menu entries used mini-icons. Too bad. On the other hand: - I can install Slackware much more quickly than Debian, but then I have to install extra stuff like Dosemu on my own, whereas a lot of stuff is included with Debian. It'll take me weeks to explore the possible packages I could install. - The docs appear to be quite extensive. It'll take a lot of time to sort it all out! A question... - I assume that the list of installed packages is in some file. Is it possible to transfer this file to another PC to instruct Debian to install the same pacakges? I often install on several PCs and this would be a nice feature. -- Peter Galbraith, research scientist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Maurice-Lamontagne Institute, Department of Fisheries and Oceans Canada P.O. Box 1000, Mont-Joli Qc, G5H 3Z4 Canada 418-775-0852 - FAX 418-775-0546 -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: First impressions on installing Debian 1.3
Peter S Galbraith [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A question... - I assume that the list of installed packages is in some file. Is it possible to transfer this file to another PC to instruct Debian to install the same pacakges? I often install on several PCs and this would be a nice feature. Check out: dpkg --get-selections somefile dpkg --set-selections somefile -- Rob -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: First impressions on installing Debian 1.3
- I didn't really like the interface of dselect. It's easy to get lost in there. Perhaps changing the background colour according to the context? (different background colour during conflict resolution; this package suggests this other (in blue foreground); this package conflicts altogether (in red)). I know dselect has a terrible complicated job to do. That's why i think it deserved a bit more polish. After all, it's the first reall interaction a user gets with Debian. Yes, this has been mentioned. A lot of users, such as I, don't use deselect besides the base install of a few packages. I then use ftp to download the rest and dpkg to install. dpkg is very powerful and nice :) On the other hand: - I can install Slackware much more quickly than Debian, but then I have to install extra stuff like Dosemu on my own, whereas a lot of stuff is included with Debian. It'll take me weeks to explore the possible packages I could install. I'm sure after running Slackware for so long it is easy to install... I can install Debian on a machine, with X, network, all configured in about an hour and a half with an ftp install. This is installing most of the packages I currently have on my system. You will find updating versions on packages a very miniscule (sp?) task, which is nice when I don't have time for a lot of maintenance. ( I work maintaining 100 SUN machines and 4,000 users so I don't have much time for play ). - The docs appear to be quite extensive. It'll take a lot of time to sort it all out! Yes, they do! ...plus you will find a wealth of knowledge in this group, because many of the developers read/reply directly. A question... - I assume that the list of installed packages is in some file. Is it possible to transfer this file to another PC to instruct Debian to install the same pacakges? I often install on several PCs and this would be a nice feature. You can find the current 'status' of packages in the /var/lib/dpkg/status file. It is a text file and is easy to understand. I don't know if I'm one to welcome you, but I'm proud of Debian, and will boast. You made the right choice! Dennis Kelly -- Peter Galbraith, research scientist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Maurice-Lamontagne Institute, Department of Fisheries and Oceans Canada P.O. Box 1000, Mont-Joli Qc, G5H 3Z4 Canada 418-775-0852 - FAX 418-775-0546 + dpk [EMAIL PROTECTED] + work : 517.353.8892 + + Systems Undergrad + pager: 517.222.5875 + + Division of Engineering Computing Services + + -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: First impressions on installing Debian 1.3
Peter S Galbraith [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From a guy who has used Linux since 1993 or so, I found the installation to be non-trivial: ... - I didn't really like the interface of dselect. It's easy to get lost in there. Perhaps changing the background colour according to the context? (different background colour during conflict resolution; this package suggests this other (in blue foreground); this package conflicts altogether (in red)). I know dselect has a terrible complicated job to do. That's why i think it deserved a bit more polish. After all, it's the first reall interaction a user gets with Debian. There is a project which is working on replacing dselect. I'd like to suggest you to install/use packages like menu and dwww. You will see how powerful is the distribution. -- Alair Pereira do Lago [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ime.usp.br/~alair Computer Science Department -- Universidade de S~ao Paulo -- Brazil -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: First impressions on installing Debian 1.3 (and an idea!)
First, let me thank all those that responded to my `impressions' post. I'll reply to this one, and leave it at that. (I thought Debian's installation asked whether you were really sure about running mke2fs, It does, it does. Just a case of initial culture shock. - I assume that the list of installed packages is in some file. Is it possible to transfer this file to another PC to instruct Debian to install the same pacakges? I often install on several PCs and this would be a nice feature. first:~ $ dpkg --get-selections selections other:~ # dpkg --set-selections selections This is a very nice feature indeed. An idea about `menu': I think the a frustrating thing with Linux is finding out what's available. I think what would attract people to Linux is *showing* them all that's available. If actual `commands' available in packges were documented somewhere (maybe they are), it would be possible to build a window-manager menu where installed commands would be listed (like `menu' does) but also include `available but not installed' comamnds. The menu entries could be shaded or have a different colour, and instead of running the command, selecting the menu entry would pop up a description along with the name of the package that held it (it could even optionally install it!). Maybe making a menu entry for each package (instead of commands) would be good enough, or even better if a package hold dozens of realted commands. I don't know if Debian provides enough info to do this in /var/lib/dpkg. My perl or awk skills may be up to the task of extracting the required info to build the menu. What's missing is an X tool to display the package description from a file (or a part extracted from a file). I don't do windows... Thoughts? Is this a good idea? Another question: There are many upgrades to make to use a 2.1.X kernels. Are there Debian packages to do these upgrades? (I have an IDE/ATAPI PD-CD; I need 2.1.X if I ever want to see the PD side working.) -- Peter Galbraith, research scientist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Maurice-Lamontagne Institute, Department of Fisheries and Oceans Canada P.O. Box 1000, Mont-Joli Qc, G5H 3Z4 Canada 418-775-0852 - FAX 418-775-0546 -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: First impressions on installing Debian 1.3 (and an idea!)
On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Peter S Galbraith wrote: An idea about `menu': I think the a frustrating thing with Linux is finding out what's available. I think what would attract people to Linux is *showing* them all that's available. You mean package-wise? Generally I check out www.debian.org, altho certain packages aren't available from there, such as the pgp ones. Maybe it'd be usefull if a search for packages which are known to exist but can't or aren't located on master could point us to a mirror which has them? Maybe making a menu entry for each package (instead of commands) would be good enough, or even better if a package hold dozens of realted commands. I don't know if Debian provides enough info to do this in /var/lib/dpkg. My perl or awk skills may be up to the task of extracting the required info to build the menu. What's missing is an X tool to display the package description from a file (or a part extracted from a file). I don't do windows... It'd probably be pretty easy to write something basic but useful in tcl/tk, which is a relatively standard installation. It has lots of display this text-sortof commands. And it frontends well to most things. Will [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ecl.udel.edu/~lowe/ * Good Idea: Feeding Stray Cats in the Park. Bad Idea: Feeding Stray Cats in the park ... to a bear. * -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: First impressions on installing Debian 1.3 (and an idea!)
I think the a frustrating thing with Linux is finding out what's available. I think what would attract people to Linux is *showing* them all that's available. You mean package-wise? Yeah. What's missing is an X tool to display the package description from a file (or a part extracted from a file). I don't do windows... It'd probably be pretty easy to write something basic but useful in tcl/tk, which is a relatively standard installation. It has lots of display this text-sortof commands. And it frontends well to most things. Right. I'm not sure if fvwm95 menu entries calling a simple tk/tcl program to display info on one package is better than a styandalone tk/tcl package to provide info on all available packages. The standalone package could be used with any window manager. I just like the idea of Debain shipping with fvwm95 menus filled with entries describing hundreds of packages :-) -- Peter Galbraith, research scientist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Maurice-Lamontagne Institute, Department of Fisheries and Oceans Canada P.O. Box 1000, Mont-Joli Qc, G5H 3Z4 Canada 418-775-0852 - FAX 418-775-0546 -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: First impressions on installing Debian 1.3 (and an idea!)
On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Peter S Galbraith wrote: I'm not sure if fvwm95 menu entries calling a simple tk/tcl program to display info on one package is better than a styandalone tk/tcl package to provide info on all available packages. The standalone package could be used with any window manager. I just like the idea of Debain shipping with fvwm95 menus filled with entries describing hundreds of packages :-) Well: I like the idea of a X-based package information system. I also think it'd be neat if that same information system was capable of doing installation; this is easy enough with a simple script to call dpkg if you can work around the dependencies. I'm not an fvwm95 user, so naturally I'm not going to push it to be tied to that interface. I was thinking that perhaps this might be a decent java application: you could write essentially the same code to run locally in your java-enabled kernel, and those with web sites that mirror debian packages could use the same code (with a few modifications) to run in netscape across the net and find/display package info, so that you could run the system ON the ftp site ... Don't know how excited the sysadmins would be tho. Will [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ecl.udel.edu/~lowe/ * Good Idea: Feeding Stray Cats in the Park. Bad Idea: Feeding Stray Cats in the park ... to a bear. * -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: First impressions on installing Debian 1.3 (and an idea!)
I was thinking that perhaps this might be a decent Java application: you could write essentially the same code to run locally in your Java-enabled kernel, and those with web sites that mirror debian packages could use the same code (with a few modifications) to run in Netscape across the net and find/display package info, so that you could run the system ON the FTP site ... Don't know how excited the sysadmins would be tho. Will I think this is a very good idea - imagine when Debian is ported to other hardware platforms and (dreaming maybe) other OS's - one JAVA application could handle the installation regardless of Hardware and OS. The only Kernel that would *have* to have Java support compiled in would be the one on the rescue disks. The system could install a different kernel that would not have JAVA support. What would *really* be nice would be a browser that had more capabilities than Lynx - yet still worked on a tty. Maybe provide FRAME support via a UI like that in QuarterDeck's (sp?) Manifest. The user with bare-minimum hardware could use Lynx - the user with SVGALIB support could use the new browser - someone with X could use Netscape or any other X-based browser. If all of the Debian Admin tools could be written in JAVA/CGI and put into HTML pages, this scenario would be pretty cool! Chuck -- Chuck Stickelman, Owner E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Practical Network DesignVoice: (419) 529-3841 9 Chambers Road FAX:(419) 529-3625 Mansfield, OH 44906-1302 USA -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: First impressions on installing Debian 1.3 (and an idea!)
On Tue, 24 Jun 1997 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: decent Java application: you could write essentially the same code to run locally in your Java-enabled kernel, and those with web sites that I think this is a very good idea - imagine when Debian is ported to other hardware platforms and (dreaming maybe) other OS's - one JAVA application could handle the installation regardless of Hardware and OS. Wait: you've apparently missed the thread that I've been carrying on all day. The point of the whole idea was to provide a way for people to get information on and install packages. We discussed the idea that finding linux software can sometimes be difficult because we didn't know where to look and the fact that, while dpkg is a _GREAT_ tool, it doesn't provide much information and isn't very user-friendly. All I'm suggesting is a deselect-like, x-enabled friendly neighborhood package finder and installer. Keep in mind that at this point a remote java process (one _NOT_ running on your machine, but on the ftp server or someplace else) CAN'T access your hard drive in a meaningful installation way, as a security precaution. Locally, you could run it, but then you'd already have to have X installed. Will [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ecl.udel.edu/~lowe/ * Good Idea: Feeding Stray Cats in the Park. Bad Idea: Feeding Stray Cats in the park ... to a bear. * -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: First impressions on installing Debian 1.3 (and an idea!)
I was thinking that perhaps this might be a decent Java application: you could write essentially the same code to run locally in your Java-enabled kernel, and those with web sites that mirror debian packages could use the same code (with a few modifications) to run in Netscape across the net and find/display package info, so that you could run the system ON the FTP site ... Don't know how excited the sysadmins would be tho. Will I think this is a very good idea - imagine when Debian is ported to other hardware platforms and (dreaming maybe) other OS's - one JAVA application could handle the installation regardless of Hardware and OS. The only Kernel that would *have* to have Java support compiled in would be the one on the rescue disks. The system could install a different kernel that would not have JAVA support. As far as I understand, even JAVA-enabled kernel still needs jdk to be installed (see JAVA-Linux HOWTO) and this is not acceptable for installaton disk I guess. Alex Y. What would *really* be nice would be a browser that had more capabilities than Lynx - yet still worked on a tty. Maybe provide FRAME support via a UI like that in QuarterDeck's (sp?) Manifest. The user with bare-minimum hardware could use Lynx - the user with SVGALIB support could use the new browser - someone with X could use Netscape or any other X-based browser. If all of the Debian Admin tools could be written in JAVA/CGI and put into HTML pages, this scenario would be pretty cool! Chuck -- Chuck Stickelman, Owner E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Practical Network Design Voice: (419) 529-3841 9 Chambers Road FAX:(419) 529-3625 Mansfield, OH 44906-1302 USA -- _ _( )_ ( (o___ | _ 7 ''' \() (O O) / \ \ +---oOO--(_)+ |\ __/ -- | Alexander Yukhimets [EMAIL PROTECTED] | || | http://pages.nyu.edu/~aqy6633/ | ( / +-oOO---+ \ / |__|__| ) /(_ || || | (___)ooO Ooo \___) -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: First impressions on installing Debian 1.3 (and an idea!)
Will Lowe wrote: The point of the whole idea was to provide a way for people to get information on and install packages. We discussed the idea that finding linux software can sometimes be difficult because we didn't know where to look and the fact that, while dpkg is a _GREAT_ tool, it doesn't provide much information and isn't very user-friendly. That's what I initially advanced anyway. All I'm suggesting is a deselect-like, x-enabled friendly neighborhood package finder and installer. Right. I agree. This is doable and would be very nice to have. -- Peter Galbraith, research scientist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Maurice-Lamontagne Institute, Department of Fisheries and Oceans Canada P.O. Box 1000, Mont-Joli Qc, G5H 3Z4 Canada 418-775-0852 - FAX 418-775-0546 -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: First impressions on installing Debian 1.3 (and an idea!)
I think this is a very good idea - imagine when Debian is ported to other hardware platforms and (dreaming maybe) other OS's - one JAVA application could handle the installation regardless of Hardware and OS. Wait: you've apparently missed the thread that I've been carrying on all day. The point of the whole idea was to provide a way for people to get information on and install packages. We discussed the idea that finding linux software can sometimes be difficult because we didn't know where to look and the fact that, while dpkg is a _GREAT_ tool, it doesn't provide much information and isn't very user-friendly. Don't know that I missed anything. The two tools available - dselect and dpkg - are both good, yet they are both lacking. Dselect has all of the information available, but is harder than all-get-out to learn. Dpkg is easy to learn but doesn't provide all of the needed information. On this I think we all agree. All I'm suggesting is a deselect-like, x-enabled friendly dselect-like, yes. X-enabled, no. neighborhood package finder and installer. Keep in mind that at this point a remote java process (one _NOT_ running on your machine, but on the ftp server or someplace else) CAN'T access your hard drive in a meaningful installation way, as a security precaution. Locally, you could run it, but then you'd already have to have X installed. This is my point. Make something that *does* run locally, but write it in a language - any language - that has some flexibility. If the install scripts were HTML pages and Java-script (or *whatever*) loaded locally, then a person with a text-only browser would be able to access Debian. After X was installed, if that user chose to use a X-enabled browser, then Debian would also be available. I'm not always good at expressing myself in text - what I'm trying to convey is that *perhaps* Debian should break the User Interface away from the Debian-specific functionality. The functionality I'm referring to is: checking on package availability, installing/removing/upgrading packages, configuring packages. (ie. Package manipulation.) As an example: there are several Debian packages that are available, but are not available from any US archive. If the Debian routines were written in something like HTML, we could have pointers to the non-US sites. The user wouldn't have to know to check multiple sites for a complete installation of Debian, nor would they have to use multiple access methods to retrieve the requested packages. If they selected a package that required PGP or SSH, then the Debian routines would go and get those packages - from the non-US mirror. Help me is I'm missing the point. Chuck -- Chuck Stickelman, Owner E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Practical Network DesignVoice: (419) 529-3841 9 Chambers Road FAX:(419) 529-3625 Mansfield, OH 44906-1302 USA -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
