Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.

2007-05-02 Thread MJ Ray
Holger Levsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I did report those, but the resistance on the on the debian-i18n-de 
> mailinglist made me gave up on this. 

I don't know about -de but one problem I have with some translation
corrections is when neologisms are promoted without the promoter being
able to give any reference for them, whereas I do actually try to
check technical dictionaries when I'm uncertain.  We should try to
avoid making every debian translation into an English-other pidgin.

So, yes, please report mistranslations, but please don't be offended
if a source is given for the translation used and one is asked for a
reference to support the suggested change.

[...]
> But I do have problems understanding the german site and yet I want to browse 
> the rest of the web in german, and this is not possible with the current 
> webpage.

The solution is for users to find better browser language-switching. I
think there are some extensions for Iceweasel, but probably hacking is
still required on this.  It's surprising it's still a problem, given
how many hackers it probably affects, but I guess it's partly because
so many web sites don't use content negotiation.

Regards,
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Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.

2007-05-01 Thread Rolando Quiros

Well , I think thats easily solved by including both terms ? just like you
wrote it
Werkzeugkette (toolchain),
(German)   and(English).

Or is that what you suggested to the list on first place ?

On 4/29/07, NAGY Viktor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Holger Levsen wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Saturday 28 April 2007 12:48, Jens Seidel wrote:
>> And why do you not report this? I remember only one maybe two mails
from
>> you! Together with a proper fix it will be committed in less than one
>> hour!
>
> I did report those, but the resistance on the on the debian-i18n-de
> mailinglist made me gave up on this.
>
> Werkzeugkette (toolchain), Veröffentlichungsziele (release goals), DSAs,
> subversion depots (translating repository (which is used in the official
> translation of the svn book) with depot, which is no german word as
well),
> etc. were too much for me. There were quite some more, though I have to
> admit, now that I took a very brief look at the page in german again,
that it
> looks a bit better now. Though "Entfernte Privilegien-Eskalation"
(remote
> priviledge escalation) is still... not something I want to read
personally.
>
> So, yes, I think it has become better. Thanks to those of you working on
it. I
> appreciate it, as I know many german speaking people have problems
> understanding the english pages.
>
> But I do have problems understanding the german site and yet I want to
browse
> the rest of the web in german, and this is not possible with the current
> webpage.
>
> Those are two different problems, and you dont fix one by fixing the
other.

I think you're not alone with this problem, as it's quite common among
people who are in advanced level in a profession and learnt it together
with English terminology. Translators always try to establish national
terminology, which might help beginners but confuse experts. In
Hungarian translation of w.d.o we try to keep the balance between
English terminology and Hungarian neologism. Other translation projects
don't do so, that's why I also prefer reading IT-specific websites in
English.

Viktor


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Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.

2007-04-29 Thread NAGY Viktor

Holger Levsen wrote:

Hi,

On Saturday 28 April 2007 12:48, Jens Seidel wrote:

And why do you not report this? I remember only one maybe two mails from
you! Together with a proper fix it will be committed in less than one
hour!


I did report those, but the resistance on the on the debian-i18n-de 
mailinglist made me gave up on this. 

Werkzeugkette (toolchain), Veröffentlichungsziele (release goals), DSAs, 
subversion depots (translating repository (which is used in the official 
translation of the svn book) with depot, which is no german word as well), 
etc. were too much for me. There were quite some more, though I have to 
admit, now that I took a very brief look at the page in german again, that it 
looks a bit better now. Though "Entfernte Privilegien-Eskalation" (remote 
priviledge escalation) is still... not something I want to read personally.


So, yes, I think it has become better. Thanks to those of you working on it. I 
appreciate it, as I know many german speaking people have problems 
understanding the english pages. 

But I do have problems understanding the german site and yet I want to browse 
the rest of the web in german, and this is not possible with the current 
webpage.


Those are two different problems, and you dont fix one by fixing the other.


I think you're not alone with this problem, as it's quite common among 
people who are in advanced level in a profession and learnt it together 
with English terminology. Translators always try to establish national 
terminology, which might help beginners but confuse experts. In 
Hungarian translation of w.d.o we try to keep the balance between 
English terminology and Hungarian neologism. Other translation projects 
don't do so, that's why I also prefer reading IT-specific websites in 
English.


Viktor


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Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.

2007-04-28 Thread Holger Levsen
Hi,

On Saturday 28 April 2007 12:48, Jens Seidel wrote:
> And why do you not report this? I remember only one maybe two mails from
> you! Together with a proper fix it will be committed in less than one
> hour!

I did report those, but the resistance on the on the debian-i18n-de 
mailinglist made me gave up on this. 

Werkzeugkette (toolchain), Veröffentlichungsziele (release goals), DSAs, 
subversion depots (translating repository (which is used in the official 
translation of the svn book) with depot, which is no german word as well), 
etc. were too much for me. There were quite some more, though I have to 
admit, now that I took a very brief look at the page in german again, that it 
looks a bit better now. Though "Entfernte Privilegien-Eskalation" (remote 
priviledge escalation) is still... not something I want to read personally.

So, yes, I think it has become better. Thanks to those of you working on it. I 
appreciate it, as I know many german speaking people have problems 
understanding the english pages. 

But I do have problems understanding the german site and yet I want to browse 
the rest of the web in german, and this is not possible with the current 
webpage.

Those are two different problems, and you dont fix one by fixing the other.


regards,
Holger


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Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.

2007-04-28 Thread Jens Seidel
On Sat, Apr 28, 2007 at 12:15:00PM +0200, Holger Levsen wrote:
> On Friday 27 April 2007 18:41, Sam Hocevar wrote:
> > > >o Not wanting to browse the Debian website in French because I'm not
> > > >  satisfied with the translations but still wanting to see all other
> > > >  websites in French?
> > >  Invalid - please don't shut your eyes from the problems but work on
> > > them.  :P
>
> /me is quite annoyed by this comment. Been there, done that. Failed, tried 
> again, failed again, tried again, etc. - Still working a bit on it 

If you're not able to solve a problem alone you can always open a bug
report and let other people deal with it. This may be much more
efficient as to dig into problems you do not know well enough (of course
you should in this case spend your time fixing bugs where you have
appropriate knowledge).

> (sometimes), but in general to me the german debian webpage is really
> deprecated. If I use it, I often either need to look up things in the english
> webpage to understand stuff, or I need to file bugs. Both is not really what
> I want to do, when I want to read something up on a webpage.

And why do you not report this? I remember only one maybe two mails from
you! Together with a proper fix it will be committed in less than one
hour!

Jens


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Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.

2007-04-28 Thread Holger Levsen
Hi,

On Friday 27 April 2007 18:41, Sam Hocevar wrote:
> > >o Not wanting to browse the Debian website in French because I'm not
> > >  satisfied with the translations but still wanting to see all other
> > >  websites in French?
> >  Invalid - please don't shut your eyes from the problems but work on
> > them.  :P

/me is quite annoyed by this comment. Been there, done that. Failed, tried 
again, failed again, tried again, etc. - Still working a bit on it 
(sometimes), but in general to me the german debian webpage is really 
deprecated. If I use it, I often either need to look up things in the english 
webpage to understand stuff, or I need to file bugs. Both is not really what 
I want to do, when I want to read something up on a webpage.

>Sorry, no. I'd probably accept that if I was the only reader for the
> site, but I am not.

I basically just wanted to add that I too prefer to browse the Debian webpage 
in english, while (most of) the rest of the web in german.

OTOH I would accept cookies from the debian webpage(s), which is something I 
generally dont do :)


regards,
Holger


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Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.

2007-04-27 Thread Sam Hocevar
On Fri, Apr 27, 2007, Gerfried Fuchs wrote:

> >Having a cookie to store the language choice as soon as the user
> > clicks on the language name or a little flag icon,
> 
>  Please read up in the archives (even in the recent threads) about why
> flags for language selection are a _very_ bad idea.

   ACK.

> > and have this cookie override the browser content negociation settings
> > seems extremely reasonable to me.
> 
>  Can you try to figure out the required ressources for that approach?
> And overriding is a bad idea like I tried to point out, but it might
> make partly sense with in addition to the browser setting.

   A user action ("let me browse this site in $LANG now") overriding the
settings does not sound like a bad idea to me.

> >o Not wanting to browse the Debian website in French because I'm not
> >  satisfied with the translations but still wanting to see all other
> >  websites in French?
> 
>  Invalid - please don't shut your eyes from the problems but work on
> them.  :P

   Sorry, no. I'd probably accept that if I was the only reader for the
site, but I am not.

> >o Using a web browser that does not support content negociation
> 
>  And what one would that be?  One from this millenium, please.

   I may have missed where it's done, but I cannot get it to work with
Liferea's integrated browser, which means w.d.o links aren't in the same
language when accessed from my RSS feeds and with my other browsers.

Cheers,
Sam.
-- 
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Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.

2007-04-27 Thread Gerfried Fuchs
* Sam Hocevar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2007-04-27 16:51]:
>Also, w.d.o may not be the only site using content-negociation, but
> since not all pages are translated you always end up seeing English at
> some point.

 Or some other language you chose.  Content negotiation works with many
languages ordered, that's the main problem with overruling it, it limits
it to only one preference.

>This is trivially worked around by prepending a note saying "Sorry,
> the page you requested is not available in $LANGUAGE, we're showing the
> English version instead" at the top of untranslated pages.

 Alright, this is where it starts pretty dynamically, because the
content negotiation just doesn't allow that and there is no support for
custom 406 error page in apache that I know of.

>Having a cookie to store the language choice as soon as the user
> clicks on the language name or a little flag icon,

 Please read up in the archives (even in the recent threads) about why
flags for language selection are a _very_ bad idea.

> and have this cookie override the browser content negociation settings
> seems extremely reasonable to me.

 Can you try to figure out the required ressources for that approach?
And overriding is a bad idea like I tried to point out, but it might
make partly sense with in addition to the browser setting.

>>  And what would be the reasoning behind such a wish?  How common would
>> you see such a wish?
> 
>o Lending my computer to my girlfriend
>o Using a public terminal

 Valid reasons.

>o Not wanting to browse the Debian website in French because I'm not
>  satisfied with the translations but still wanting to see all other
>  websites in French?

 Invalid - please don't shut your eyes from the problems but work on
them.  :P

>o Using a web browser that does not support content negociation

 And what one would that be?  One from this millenium, please.

>>  I don't see much usability enhancement by that suggestion, to be
>> honest.
> 
>I do see much. Not sure how common my views are, though.

 It might look like much, but I'm not sure if it would be properly
doable and not let us face yet another Debian machine going down under
its load.

 So long,
Alfie
P.S.: I hate my sigd.  I mean ... I don't want to discourage that
   approach, I even added some thoughts about what should be done when
   it's tried.  I'm just not really convinced that it is going to gain
   us much, if any.
-- 
Some men see things as they are and say why - I dream things that never were and
say why not.
-- George Bernard Shaw


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Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.

2007-04-27 Thread Sam Hocevar
On Fri, Apr 27, 2007, Gerfried Fuchs wrote:

>  w.d.o isn't the only content negotiation using site out there, and I
> don't see why we shouldn't try to educate the users in that way - in
> fact tell them that they are lying to their browser about their
> preference, so why we should let them live with a lie?

   Purity and education is good, but do we want to shove that down our
users' throats? They are not even our users, there are Windows users
interested in learning about Debian and we should not refuse to make it
easier for them.

   Also, w.d.o may not be the only site using content-negociation, but
since not all pages are translated you always end up seeing English at
some point.

>  Besides, what would you really store there?  You most propably can
> store only a _single_ language after clicking such a link, and end up
> with well undefined behavior if one of the following pages isn't
> translated into that language and get complaints about that again.

   This is trivially worked around by prepending a note saying "Sorry,
the page you requested is not available in $LANGUAGE, we're showing the
English version instead" at the top of untranslated pages.

   Having a cookie to store the language choice as soon as the user
clicks on the language name or a little flag icon, and have this cookie
override the browser content negociation settings seems extremely
reasonable to me. Everyone is happy.

> > What if they want to change the preferred language only for a
> > particular session?
> 
>  And what would be the reasoning behind such a wish?  How common would
> you see such a wish?

   o Lending my computer to my girlfriend
   o Using a public terminal
   o Not wanting to browse the Debian website in French because I'm not
 satisfied with the translations but still wanting to see all other
 websites in French?
   o Using a web browser that does not support content negociation

> > I understand your concern regarding technical complexity but usability
> > has a price.
> 
>  I don't see much usability enhancement by that suggestion, to be
> honest.

   I do see much. Not sure how common my views are, though.

Cheers,
-- 
Sam.


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Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.

2007-04-27 Thread Gerfried Fuchs
Hi!

 Please don't send seperate mails to the list and to my private mailbox
- you will only end me up with writing two replies ...  *sighs*

* NAGY Viktor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2007-04-27 12:18]:
> Gerfried Fuchs wrote:
>> And what would you want to use server-side dynamic content for?
> 
> A possible goal was mentioned in Jens' e-mail I replied: remembering 
> user's language preference. Content negotiation and the way how language 
> links at the bottom work generate the most complaints by visitors in 
> debian-www list. Why would someone change the settings of their browser 
> for w.d.o when the other multilingual sites they visited so far worked 
> well?

 w.d.o isn't the only content negotiation using site out there, and I
don't see why we shouldn't try to educate the users in that way - in
fact tell them that they are lying to their browser about their
preference, so why we should let them live with a lie?

 Besides, what would you really store there?  You most propably can
store only a _single_ language after clicking such a link, and end up
with well undefined behavior if one of the following pages isn't
translated into that language and get complaints about that again.

 So rather tell them how to fix it properly, once and for all, instead
of having them stumble into the same problem later on again.

> What if they want to change the preferred language only for a
> particular session?

 And what would be the reasoning behind such a wish?  How common would
you see such a wish?

> I understand your concern regarding technical complexity but usability
> has a price.

 I don't see much usability enhancement by that suggestion, to be
honest.

 So long,
Alfie
-- 
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-- LnxBil über die Bedeutung von "use strict;"


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Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.

2007-04-27 Thread NAGY Viktor
 --- Begin Message ---

Gerfried Fuchs wrote:

* NAGY Viktor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2007-04-23 11:09]:
These constraints are quite strict. Are there any website statistics 
which prove that it's really worth to maintain website mirrors and give 
up using server-side dynamic content?


 And what would you want to use server-side dynamic content for?  I
haven't heard of a suggestion yet that made really sense - only the
question if it could be available.  Besides, keep in mind the propable
need for a database backend, the required load performance of all that
and the bigger needs on administration and on checking the additional
used infrastructure for possible security problems.



A possible goal was mentioned in Jens' e-mail I replied: remembering 
user's language preference. Content negotiation and the way how language 
links at the bottom work generate the most complaints by visitors in 
debian-www list. Why would someone change the settings of their browser 
for w.d.o when the other multilingual sites they visited so far worked 
well? What if they want to change the preferred language only for a 
particular session? I understand your concern regarding technical 
complexity but usability has a price.


Viktor


--- End Message ---


Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.

2007-04-26 Thread Tommi Vainikainen
On 2007-04-23T07:55:23+0300, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I was browsing through the site and noticed that even after i had changed to
> the spanish version, every time i clicked on a link it would take to the
> english version of the page.

That is because your have such settings in your web browser which
requests primarly english pages.

Please read following page: http://www.de.debian.org/intro/cn >

-- 
Tommi Vainikainen


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Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.

2007-04-26 Thread Gerfried Fuchs
* NAGY Viktor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2007-04-23 11:09]:
> These constraints are quite strict. Are there any website statistics 
> which prove that it's really worth to maintain website mirrors and give 
> up using server-side dynamic content?

 And what would you want to use server-side dynamic content for?  I
haven't heard of a suggestion yet that made really sense - only the
question if it could be available.  Besides, keep in mind the propable
need for a database backend, the required load performance of all that
and the bigger needs on administration and on checking the additional
used infrastructure for possible security problems.

 So long,
Alfie
-- 
The biggest difference is that now I can hear bass.  I had almost forgotten
that Metallica isn't a teenage girl band.
 -- Lars Wirzenius, 


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Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.

2007-04-23 Thread James Herrington

"no Javascript is a requirement"


There is no problem at all with using javascript however there should ALWAYS 
be an alternative in case the user doesnt have javascript enabled. This 
isn't too hard to implement in most cases as the  tag can be 
used.


James 



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Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.

2007-04-23 Thread Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña
On Mon, Apr 23, 2007 at 11:09:23AM +0200, NAGY Viktor wrote:
> Jens Seidel wrote:
> >
> >It was already suggested multiple times to remember users choice of
> >the selected language. There where also some suggestions to a possible
> >implementation such as using cookies. Don't know about the status.
> >
> >Please note that Debian's website has currently a few contraints such
> >as using only static content (no javascript, ...) and allows also
> >mirroring of the content ...
> 
> These constraints are quite strict. Are there any website statistics 
> which prove that it's really worth to maintain website mirrors and give 
> up using server-side dynamic content?

There's no statistics, but we're not going to give up our mirrors up when
many of the things that can be done server-side could be done client-side.
Actually right now we are not doing redirection to users based on their
IP->Geographic location mapping, but we could easily do that on the server
side for www.debian.org if the needs arises.

In any case, I'm not opposed to  fancy language-selection using JavaScript
and cookies for those users that are incapable of setting up
content-negotiation in their browsers. Which is something actually
surprisingly common (and *sooo* easy to fix by the users' themselves...)

Yes, I know what Jens said: "no Javascript is a requirement" but I think
he actually meant "Javascript should not be a requirement to access content
as that would make it inaccesible for text browsers" (for example,
Javascript-based menus should be ruled out) and not "Javascript should not be
used anywhere at the site". Javascript+cookie language "selection" in
*addition* to content negotiation would be, IMHO, OK if properly implemented.

Regards

Javier


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Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.

2007-04-23 Thread NAGY Viktor

Jens Seidel wrote:


It was already suggested multiple times to remember users choice of
the selected language. There where also some suggestions to a possible
implementation such as using cookies. Don't know about the status.

Please note that Debian's website has currently a few contraints such
as using only static content (no javascript, ...) and allows also
mirroring of the content ...


These constraints are quite strict. Are there any website statistics 
which prove that it's really worth to maintain website mirrors and give 
up using server-side dynamic content?


Viktor


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Re: Inconsistency on translated pages links.

2007-04-23 Thread Jens Seidel
Hi Rolando,

On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 10:55:23PM -0600, Rolando Quiros wrote:
> I was browsing through the site and noticed that even after i had changed to
> the spanish version, every time i clicked on a link it would take to the
> english version of the page. Could we improve this by either creating a

that's because Debian's website use content negotation to display the
proper translation and is controlled by your browser settings.
See http://www.debian.org/intro/cn for details.

> separate directory and copy/move other languages pages and links to them ?
> or what if anything can we do for this ? ... for people wanting to browse

No, this is not possible. Assume you want to view the Spanish translation
of a page which is missing. You would probably get the Enlish version
(dependent on your browser settings). If you follow a link in this page
you want to get the Spanish page not the English one, right?

> through the site in other languages should be really annoying having to wait
> for a page to load, just to click on a link, to wait for it to load on the
> language they want...every time for every page.

It was already suggested multiple times to remember users choice of
the selected language. There where also some suggestions to a possible
implementation such as using cookies. Don't know about the status.

Please note that Debian's website has currently a few contraints such
as using only static content (no javascript, ...) and allows also
mirroring of the content ...

Jens


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