RE: [libreoffice-design] IRC chat

2012-06-06 Thread nick rundy

hey, is this irc chat open to users as well? or just programmers?

if open to users, what server and channel do i find it at?

> Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2012 18:19:32 +0200
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] IRC chat
> From: maz...@gmail.com
> To: design@global.libreoffice.org
> 
> On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 6:15 PM, Stefan Knorr (Astron) <
> heinzless...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Mirek,
> >
> > I wouldn't mind doing it on Sunday, either. So, unless anyone else
> > really wants to come to the Saturday meeting, ... let's do it on
> > Sunday.
> >
> 
> Great! Sunday, 16:00 UTC it is, then.
> I'll post this time to the wiki and on Google+.
> 
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RE: [libreoffice-design] "Document Saved" indicator

2012-06-06 Thread nick rundy

Titlebar might not be the best place to move such an indicator to. Consider 
distros like Ubuntu that integrate the Titlebar into the top panel when window 
is maximized. Is there a reason to not have the Save Icon act as the 
indicator--it  just won't work if it's an icon and therefore has to follow the 
"icon rules"?

> Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 15:13:43 -0400
> From: kohei.yosh...@gmail.com
> To: design@global.libreoffice.org
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] "Document Saved" indicator
> 
> On 06/04/2012 08:54 AM, nick rundy wrote:
> 
> > But you say it is not reliable to rely on the save icon to show 
> > modification status? That the status bar is a more accurate indicator of 
> > this?
> 
> Yes.  For now it's the indicator in the status bar.  And (as I 
> understand it) folks here are discussing about moving it to somewhere 
> else to places such as the title bar.
> 
> Kohei
> 
> -- 
> Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc
> 
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RE: [libreoffice-design] "Document Saved" indicator

2012-06-04 Thread nick rundy

> *sigh*  I guess the mis-use is very much prevalent.


I was not aware that the Status Bar communicated save-status. 

I suspect the majority of LO users are also not aware of this. It is easy to 
see why users have adopted a "mis-use" of the Save Icon, assuming it is a 
mis-use. Users have an icon they click to save a document. It is a fairly well 
sized icon. Whey they go to click the icon and it is grayed out, no save is 
possible. No save possible = nothing is in need of saving. Hence the icon 
becomes a "communicator" as well as a "saver." Whether a correct judgment or 
not, it is a common induction people are making. 

But you say it is not reliable to rely on the save icon to show modification 
status? That the status bar is a more accurate indicator of this?







> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] "Document Saved" indicator
> From: kohei.yosh...@gmail.com
> To: design@global.libreoffice.org
> Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 22:57:33 -0400
> 
> On Thu, 2012-05-31 at 22:54 -0400, Jay Lozier wrote:
> > The grayed out Save button in LO also indicates that the document in
> > unchanged since the last change. This is a very handy at a glance
> > feature to know the save status. 
> 

> 
> Since we are now going in circles, I'll resign myself from further
> discussion.
> 
> Have a nice day.
> 
> Kohei
> 
> -- 
> Kohei Yoshida, LibreOffice hacker, Calc
> 
> 
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RE: [libreoffice-design] "Document Saved" indicator

2012-05-31 Thread nick rundy

A grayed out Save Indicator is not superfluous!

I find this EXTRAORDINARILY useful to know whether I have added new material to 
a document or whether I'm dealing with the previously saved version. The grayed 
out Indicator communicates this in a very simple manner. It's perfect.

The grayed out Save Indicator is one of the best features of Writer!



> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] "Document Saved" indicator
> From: christ...@dogmatux.com
> To: design@global.libreoffice.org
> CC: ke...@suse.cz; android2...@gmail.com
> Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 20:14:18 +0200
> 
> Hi Alex, all!
> 
> Am Mittwoch, den 30.05.2012, 16:42 +0200 schrieb Alexander Wilms:
> > actually, the save icon in the top toolbar should be enough, don't you 
> > think? It's greyed out if there's nothing to save and makes the 
> > indicator superfluous.

  
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RE: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice dialog windows should conform with Linux's Standard "Command Button Layout"

2011-07-17 Thread nick rundy

lol. Yes, no matter what you do, you can't win =)

> Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 02:15:13 -0400
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice dialog windows should conform   
> with Linux's Standard "Command Button Layout"
> From: android2...@gmail.com
> To: design@global.libreoffice.org
> 
> it just seems that you can not win no matter what we do.
> 
> I don't have that problem, but I've got a different one: I always look
> > under "Edit" when trying to find the options. After using LibreOffice
> > for some time, I will suddenly try to find Firefox's preferences under
> > "Tools". This is very, very annoying to me.
> 
> 
> when using Firefox depending on weather your using linux or windows the
> option button art in a different spot as well.
> 
> it sounds like Linux needs to set some standards while the majority is still
> developers.  for they will adapted more quickly and easily than general
> users.  then again it took my mom for ever to understand that there was no
> difference between Firefox and IE that both took you to the same internet.
>  I know that there is a big difference between the two but she though that
> you could only get to my school work through Firefox because thats what I
> use and deleted all icons of IE so people could not get on it.  any way
> there needs to be a standard or maybe we choose a standard and stick with
> it.  weather that is options in Edit or Tools, or save/discard/cancel,
> discard/save/cancel.  ether way we need to decide and  stick with
> that decision.
> 
> 
> On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Astron wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 4:31 PM, nick rundy  wrote:
> > >
> > > @RGB ES:  Yes, you are absolutely right, I was referring to GNOME. I
> > apologize for my oversight.
> > > I point out the "command button layout" issue because of what I have
> > seen, which has already been brought up in the discussion. People tend to
> > develop a rote mentality of clicking an area. I often find myself (because
> > I'm used to working on GNOME) moving to the right corner of dialog windows
> > to click OK only to realize last second (while using LibreOffice) that OK is
> > positioned like it is in KDE/Windows. Of course KDE and MS-Windows users
> > automatically will move to the left to select OK because they are
> > conditioned for it.
> >
> > I don't have that problem, but I've got a different one: I always look
> > under "Edit" when trying to find the options. After using LibreOffice
> > for some time, I will suddenly try to find Firefox's preferences under
> > "Tools". This is very, very annoying to me.
> > In this case, the KDE behaviour is to have a "Settings" (or
> > "Preferences") menu ...
> > Because of that, if the placement of "Options" _in Linux builds_ were
> > changed to be under "Edit", it wouldn't even feel more alien to KDE
> > users.
> >
> >
> > > If changing this layout is a complicated matter Coding-Wise or resources
> > would be better allotted to working on other projects (e.g., I'd rather see
> > bug 39080 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=39080  implemented
> > than the command button layout issue I'm speaking of here), then I urge you
> > guys to make that call. But if its not a big headache and other people feel
> > it is important enough to work on, I think conforming the dialog boxes to
> > the "standard button layout" of the desktop (i.e., KDE/Windows, Mac/GNOME)
> > adds to the integration and seamlessness of the LibreOffice UI. Ultimately I
> > just intended for my e-mail to bring this issue to people's attention so
> > there's awareness of it and the powers that be can make a decision on it. :)
> >
> > I'd rather see button placement changed than the addition of a draft
> > mode (I like the more physical feel of the standard mode), but that's
> > me.
> >
> > Astron.
> >
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RE: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice dialog windows should conform with Linux's Standard "Command Button Layout"

2011-07-16 Thread nick rundy

@RGB ES:  Yes, you are absolutely right, I was referring to GNOME. I apologize 
for my oversight.
I point out the "command button layout" issue because of what I have seen, 
which has already been brought up in the discussion. People tend to develop a 
rote mentality of clicking an area. I often find myself (because I'm used to 
working on GNOME) moving to the right corner of dialog windows to click OK only 
to realize last second (while using LibreOffice) that OK is positioned like it 
is in KDE/Windows. Of course KDE and MS-Windows users automatically will move 
to the left to select OK because they are conditioned for it.
If changing this layout is a complicated matter Coding-Wise or resources would 
be better allotted to working on other projects (e.g., I'd rather see bug 39080 
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=39080  implemented than the 
command button layout issue I'm speaking of here), then I urge you guys to make 
that call. But if its not a big headache and other people feel it is important 
enough to work on, I think conforming the dialog boxes to the "standard button 
layout" of the desktop (i.e., KDE/Windows, Mac/GNOME) adds to the integration 
and seamlessness of the LibreOffice UI. Ultimately I just intended for my 
e-mail to bring this issue to people's attention so there's awareness of it and 
the powers that be can make a decision on it. :)


> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 13:27:59 +0200
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice dialog windows should conform   
> with Linux's Standard "Command Button Layout"
> From: rgb.m...@gmail.com
> To: design@global.libreoffice.org
> 
> 2011/7/16 nick rundy :
> >
> > LibreOffice presently uses a  Microsoft Windows command button layout in 
> > its Dialog windows even when installed on a Linux distribution. Linux 
> > installations of LibreOffice should conform with the command button layout 
> > that is standard with virtually all other linux applications. For example, 
> > MS Windows displays "OK   Cancel."  Linux displays "Cancel   OK."
> > I've uploaded some screenshots to illustrate what I'm describing 
> > (http://imgur.com/a/Tmmn1#X7ym4). Notice how the screen shots conform with 
> > how MS Windows lays out its command buttons instead of how Linux 
> > applications display them?
> >
> > MS Windows:Save   Discard CancelGNU-Linux: Cancel 
> > Discard Save
> > MS Windows:   OK  Cancel   Help  ResetGNU-Linux:Reset   
> > Help   Cancel OK
> 
> You are talking about gnome, don't you? Other desktop environments
> have different layouts so there is no GNU/Linux "standard". As an
> example, KDE config dialogues have: [Help], "Predefined", [Undo],
> (space), "Accept", "Apply", "Cancel"
> (those between square brackets are not always present)
> Unless you build a specific UI for each DE available (gnome, kde,
> xfce, lxde, e17...), you will always annoy someone! ;)
> Please, remember that the Linux world do not end at Ubuntu's gnome version.
> Cheers
> Ricardo
> 
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[libreoffice-design] LibreOffice dialog windows should conform with Linux's Standard "Command Button Layout"

2011-07-15 Thread nick rundy

LibreOffice presently uses a  Microsoft Windows command button layout in its 
Dialog windows even when installed on a Linux distribution. Linux installations 
of LibreOffice should conform with the command button layout that is standard 
with virtually all other linux applications. For example, MS Windows displays 
"OK   Cancel."  Linux displays "Cancel   OK."
I've uploaded some screenshots to illustrate what I'm describing 
(http://imgur.com/a/Tmmn1#X7ym4). Notice how the screen shots conform with how 
MS Windows lays out its command buttons instead of how Linux applications 
display them?

MS Windows:Save   Discard CancelGNU-Linux: Cancel Discard   
  Save
MS Windows:   OK  Cancel   Help  ResetGNU-Linux:Reset   
Help   Cancel OK  
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RE: [libreoffice-design] merge Print Layout pages

2011-07-09 Thread nick rundy

Just a comment: Word 2010 still has this "merge page ends" capability. I'm not 
understanding what you mean when you said "Microsoft changed the behavior from 
2003 to 2007 and made this feature 'more hidden.'"

> Subject: RE: [libreoffice-design] merge Print Layout pages
> From: christ...@dogmatux.com
> To: design@global.libreoffice.org
> Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 15:39:37 +0200
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> just a short comment, since I once analyzed some of the today available
> views in Writer (during the OOo UX times). I think that the enhancement
> request is just a "half-way" solution that just adds some more
> complexity to Writer without solving the real issue.
> 
> For example, even Microsoft changed the behavior from 2003 to 2007 and
> made this feature "more hidden". I assume they wanted to completely
> remove it, but feared the feedback by the existing user base.
> 
> My take: The enhancement request should target a real "Draft" view,
> which considers page breaks and the width of the real pages without
> showing the borders etc. This would also solve a lot of other issues in
> this area ... not only one. But, this is really tough work - I omit all
> the details, but I talked with one of the Devs during the FOSDEM and I
> got some introduction in the internal issues of the Writer structure
> (there, we talked about an outline view).
> 
> Do you agree somehow? If yes, I'd like to rewrite the enhancement
> request.
> 
> Cheers,
> Christoph
> 
> 
> Am Freitag, den 08.07.2011, 17:26 -0400 schrieb nick rundy:
> > thanks Sigrid
> > here's my enhancement request:  
> > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=39080
> > 
> > > Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 23:05:17 +0200
> > > From: sigrid.carr...@googlemail.com
> > > To: design@global.libreoffice.org
> > > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] merge Print Layout pages
> > > 
> > > Hi Nick, 
> > > 
> > > On Fri, 8 Jul 2011 16:46:03 -0400
> > > nick rundy  wrote:
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > can you please provide the link to the bugzilla specific site that 
> > > > deals with LibreOffice? I will create my own bug. Thanks
> > > 
> > > Sure, you'll find bugzilla here: 
> > > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/
> > > 
> > > You need to select LibreOffice as product. This bugzilla is shared 
> > > between many different projects. 
> > > 
> > > HTH
> > > Sigrid
> > > 
> > > -- 
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> > > deleted
> > > 
> >   
> 
> 
> 
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RE: [libreoffice-design] merge Print Layout pages

2011-07-09 Thread nick rundy

If I understand you correctly, you are proposing to keep "Print Layout" how it 
is and instead add a new view-layout called "Draft Layout." And this "Draft 
Layout" would merge the ends and beginnings of pages together like the pic I 
uploaded to imgur illustrates?
If I understand this correctly, the "Draft Layout" sounds like a great 
solution. But I would kindly suggest adding a setting that lets users set 
"Draft Layout" as the default layout that Writer displays when it is opened. So 
when I open Writer to begin a document, "Draft Layout" is the view that is 
selected by default. I would have to manually change it if I wanted "Print 
Layout" or "Web Layout". Does this make sense?

> Subject: RE: [libreoffice-design] merge Print Layout pages
> From: christ...@dogmatux.com
> To: design@global.libreoffice.org
> Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 15:39:37 +0200
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> just a short comment, since I once analyzed some of the today available
> views in Writer (during the OOo UX times). I think that the enhancement
> request is just a "half-way" solution that just adds some more
> complexity to Writer without solving the real issue.
> 
> For example, even Microsoft changed the behavior from 2003 to 2007 and
> made this feature "more hidden". I assume they wanted to completely
> remove it, but feared the feedback by the existing user base.
> 
> My take: The enhancement request should target a real "Draft" view,
> which considers page breaks and the width of the real pages without
> showing the borders etc. This would also solve a lot of other issues in
> this area ... not only one. But, this is really tough work - I omit all
> the details, but I talked with one of the Devs during the FOSDEM and I
> got some introduction in the internal issues of the Writer structure
> (there, we talked about an outline view).
> 
> Do you agree somehow? If yes, I'd like to rewrite the enhancement
> request.
> 
> Cheers,
> Christoph
> 
> 
> Am Freitag, den 08.07.2011, 17:26 -0400 schrieb nick rundy:
> > thanks Sigrid
> > here's my enhancement request:  
> > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=39080
> > 
> > > Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 23:05:17 +0200
> > > From: sigrid.carr...@googlemail.com
> > > To: design@global.libreoffice.org
> > > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] merge Print Layout pages
> > > 
> > > Hi Nick, 
> > > 
> > > On Fri, 8 Jul 2011 16:46:03 -0400
> > > nick rundy  wrote:
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > can you please provide the link to the bugzilla specific site that 
> > > > deals with LibreOffice? I will create my own bug. Thanks
> > > 
> > > Sure, you'll find bugzilla here: 
> > > https://bugs.freedesktop.org/
> > > 
> > > You need to select LibreOffice as product. This bugzilla is shared 
> > > between many different projects. 
> > > 
> > > HTH
> > > Sigrid
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org
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> > > deleted
> > > 
> >   
> 
> 
> 
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RE: [libreoffice-design] merge Print Layout pages

2011-07-08 Thread nick rundy

thanks Sigrid
here's my enhancement request:  
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=39080

> Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 23:05:17 +0200
> From: sigrid.carr...@googlemail.com
> To: design@global.libreoffice.org
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] merge Print Layout pages
> 
> Hi Nick, 
> 
> On Fri, 8 Jul 2011 16:46:03 -0400
> nick rundy  wrote:
> 
> > 
> > can you please provide the link to the bugzilla specific site that deals 
> > with LibreOffice? I will create my own bug. Thanks
> 
> Sure, you'll find bugzilla here: 
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/
> 
> You need to select LibreOffice as product. This bugzilla is shared between 
> many different projects. 
> 
> HTH
> Sigrid
> 
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RE: [libreoffice-design] merge Print Layout pages

2011-07-08 Thread nick rundy

can you please provide the link to the bugzilla specific site that deals with 
LibreOffice? I will create my own bug. Thanks

> Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 22:16:01 +0200
> From: sigrid.carr...@googlemail.com
> To: design@global.libreoffice.org
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] merge Print Layout pages
> 
> Hi Nick, 
> 
> On Fri, 8 Jul 2011 15:47:03 -0400
> nick rundy  wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Sigrid, can you give me a link to the bugzilla request? Is there some way I 
> > can "vote" for this feature?
> 
> I am so sorry I am sure that someone asked for this feature on one of the 
> international lists. But I can't find the email. And even my search in 
> Bugzilla is not successful. :( 
> 
> Maybe just create the Feature request yourself. If it is already there, then 
> it will be marked as a duplicate, but on the other hand, the dev's see then, 
> that it is not only one person asking for this feature. 
> 
> I'm not sure, that you can vote for bugs like you could with OOo, but you can 
> always post an answer and say, that you agree, need this feature too or what 
> else comes to your mind. ;) 
> 
> HTH
> Sigrid
> 
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RE: [libreoffice-design] merge Print Layout pages

2011-07-08 Thread nick rundy

Sigrid, can you give me a link to the bugzilla request? Is there some way I can 
"vote" for this feature?

> Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 21:39:03 +0200
> From: sigrid.carr...@googlemail.com
> To: design@global.libreoffice.org
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] merge Print Layout pages
> 
> Hello Nick,
> 
> On Fri, 8 Jul 2011 15:11:14 -0400
> nick rundy  wrote:
> 
> > 
> > When writing documents in Writer's
> > "Print Layout", gaps appear between the pages. In Microsoft Office
> > Word, clicking on the ends of the pages pulls them together allowing the
> > writer/reader to see a seamless page. This helps the flow of reading and
> > writing and allows more information to fit on screens that don't have a lot 
> > of
> > vertical space (e.g., netbooks). I'd sure like to see this capability added 
> > to
> > LO. If it already exists, could someone tell me how to activate it? If not, 
> > any
> > chance this might be added to the TO DO list for a future version of
> > Writer? I posted an image of what I'm describing at imgur here:  
> > http://imgur.com/a/c0dgx 
> 
> I think (I haven't checked) asked for this feature as well and posted a 
> feature request for this in our bugzilla. As a workaround, you might want to 
> use the "weblayout" instead of the "printlayout" instead. It's not exactly 
> what you want, but it might be good enough? 
> 
> Sigrid
> 
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RE: [libreoffice-design] merge Print Layout pages

2011-07-08 Thread nick rundy

Yes, I have been using the Web Layout as a workaround. But as I'm sure you 
know, it's not a perfect solution. Plus I have been unable to find a way to 
make Writer automatically open with Web Layout selected. It always opens by 
default with Print Layout.

> Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 21:39:03 +0200
> From: sigrid.carr...@googlemail.com
> To: design@global.libreoffice.org
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] merge Print Layout pages
> 
> Hello Nick,
> 
> On Fri, 8 Jul 2011 15:11:14 -0400
> nick rundy  wrote:
> 
> > 
> > When writing documents in Writer's
> > "Print Layout", gaps appear between the pages. In Microsoft Office
> > Word, clicking on the ends of the pages pulls them together allowing the
> > writer/reader to see a seamless page. This helps the flow of reading and
> > writing and allows more information to fit on screens that don't have a lot 
> > of
> > vertical space (e.g., netbooks). I'd sure like to see this capability added 
> > to
> > LO. If it already exists, could someone tell me how to activate it? If not, 
> > any
> > chance this might be added to the TO DO list for a future version of
> > Writer? I posted an image of what I'm describing at imgur here:  
> > http://imgur.com/a/c0dgx 
> 
> I think (I haven't checked) asked for this feature as well and posted a 
> feature request for this in our bugzilla. As a workaround, you might want to 
> use the "weblayout" instead of the "printlayout" instead. It's not exactly 
> what you want, but it might be good enough? 
> 
> Sigrid
> 
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[libreoffice-design] merge Print Layout pages

2011-07-08 Thread nick rundy

When writing documents in Writer's
"Print Layout", gaps appear between the pages. In Microsoft Office
Word, clicking on the ends of the pages pulls them together allowing the
writer/reader to see a seamless page. This helps the flow of reading and
writing and allows more information to fit on screens that don't have a lot of
vertical space (e.g., netbooks). I'd sure like to see this capability added to
LO. If it already exists, could someone tell me how to activate it? If not, any
chance this might be added to the TO DO list for a future version of
Writer? I posted an image of what I'm describing at imgur here:  
http://imgur.com/a/c0dgx 
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