Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 12:23 AM, pancake wrote: > On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 22:31:38 +0100 > Uriel wrote: > >> On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 2:20 PM, pancake wrote: >> > anonymous wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Having said that, in case of rfork vice versa from FreeBSD. >> >>> >> >> >> >> Yes, I am talking about FreeBSD. With configure you can make your >> >> program portable between FreeBSD and Linux. Most probably other >> >> systems won't implement clone/rfork their own way so program will be >> >> portable between all systems with some kind of rfork implementation. >> >> >> > >> > in that specific case i would prefer to use __FreeBSD__ ifdef instead of a >> > configure stage. >> >> This is totally and completely RETARDED. #ifdefs are a disgrace and >> people that use them should be shot on sight. > > if you deny ifdefs for minimal portability fixes and deny configure options > to specify OS or way to compile this program you are denying also portability > and incrementing the complexity in development and structuration. This claim is patently ridiculous and wrong. As The Practice of Programming points out the only proper way to write portable code is to restrict yourself to the shared subset of interfaces available on all desired platforms, this certainly *reduces* complexity, and there are tons of software out there that use this approach and work just fine on pretty much any platform imaginable. Hell even dwm has no ifdefs or configuration step (or it didn't until stupid XINERAMA support was added). If due to the nature of the app one *really* needs to access system-specific APIs (this is much more rare than people claims to the point that I had trouble finding an example)) there are perfectly fine ways to do this without using a retarded configuration step or insane #ifdefs, for an example of how to do this see drawterm: http://code.swtch.com/drawterm/src/ (and yes, drawterm has a handful of ifdefs but most of them are either to comment out code or to enable some compiler specific pragmas, and the rest should be done away with and as far as I can tell were added by people that didn't quite know how to do things properly). uriel
Re: [dev] [surf] projects with the same name
On 29 January 2010 19:37, jokke wrote: > Just suckless-porn 8-P~ ...who wants porn with less suck? Seriously? too easy. -- = http://jessta.id.au
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 12:09 AM, Nicolai Waniek wrote: > On 02/01/2010 10:25 PM, Uriel wrote: >> If you define your personal identity based on the colors of your >> fucking window manager I feel sorry for your pathetic worthless life. > > This is not the first time that you confuse cause and result. Additionally, > you > seem to not have a fucking clue about people's different perception of the > world around them (e.g. emotional/biophysical influence on colors) or the most > mundane knowledge of psychophysics in general. > > You should definitely stop talking about this topic if you don't want to > ridicule yourself anymore. And you are so dumb that you are intellectually incapable of differentiating between the aesthetics of a tool and artistic expression, in both cases aesthetics are very important but in very different ways. If you care about art you put up real paintings on your wall, you don't spend your life treating your fucking window manager the way some nitwit teenage girl treats the cover of their crap cellphone. uriel
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Charlie Kester wrote: > On Mon 01 Feb 2010 at 13:30:00 PST Uriel wrote: >> >> On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 2:06 PM, anonymous wrote: Having said that, in case of rfork vice versa from FreeBSD. >>> >>> Yes, I am talking about FreeBSD. With configure you can make your >>> program portable between FreeBSD and Linux. Most probably other >>> systems won't implement clone/rfork their own way so program will be >>> portable between all systems with some kind of rfork implementation. >> >> This is bullshit, one of the reasons I gave up using FreeBSD long ago >> is because so much crap software that used auto*hell would blow up >> when trying to build it on FreeBSD, and trying to fix up auto*hell so >> the damned thing would build was a fucking nightmare. > > Perhaps that was a problem "long ago" but it doesn't seem to be a > problem *now*. I've been using FreeBSD since release 7.0 and have never > had a problem with configure. How many apps have you installed *not* from the ports tree that use auto*hell? Note that this issue has *zero* to do with FreeBSD and all to do with braindead auto*hell scripts. That said, FreeBSD has been an ever growing pile of shit since the 4.x series. uriel
Re: [dev] Non-tiling WM that can do tags?
On 1 February 2010 07:47, Nathan Neff wrote: > Does anyone know of a non-tiling window manager that allows you to tag > windows like wmii does? just get dwm and disable the tiling layout mode. You could even write a new layout that suites your needs. - jessta -- = http://jessta.id.au
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 12:09:28AM +0100, Nicolai Waniek wrote: > On 02/01/2010 10:25 PM, Uriel wrote: > > If you define your personal identity based on the colors of your > > fucking window manager I feel sorry for your pathetic worthless life. > > This is not the first time that you confuse cause and result. Additionally, > you > seem to not have a fucking clue about people's different perception of the > world around them (e.g. emotional/biophysical influence on colors) or the most > mundane knowledge of psychophysics in general. > > You should definitely stop talking about this topic if you don't want to > ridicule yourself anymore. > I remember tweaking my Enlightenment theme and background every 10 minutes instead of getting work done in college, so it doesn't really seem like a productivity enhancing feature. Plus, configurable themes means extra software bloat. Please excuse my lack of knowledge of psychophysics in general.
Re: [dev] [dwm] sdl12 / dwm 5.6 /5.7.2 ioquake3 problems
markus schnalke writes: > Smooth moving of clients affects only floating mode. Floating mode is > mainly a compatibility feature for broken software, and most dwm users > will seldom move a client with the mouse in floating mode. > > As implementing a ``outline moving'' feature adds complexity to dwm, and > there is nearly no gain from it, it will hardly appear in dwm. I dig the suckless philosophy, but there is such a thing as *too* simple.
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
Chris Palmer dixit (2010-02-01, 15:48): > Anselm R Garbe writes: > > > "[...] as even refueling the car required lifting the hood, filling the > > tank with gasoline (only 24 litres[1]), then adding two-stroke oil and > > shaking it back and forth to mix." > > Never mind that bit of compile-time configuration -- look at this filth! > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Trabant_RS02%28ThKraft%29.jpg > > People who paint their cars should be stabbed to death! With a configure > script! I love milking cows that have a single pre-determined pattern of > black and white spots!! CAKE LACED WITH PCP FOR MY BIRTHDAY!! Well, a while ago I saw a back-to-front Trabant on the streets of Warsaw, a quick google and here you go: http://autofoto.pl/blogs/prezes/archive/2009/05/11/trabant-je-d-cy-ty-em.aspx http://piotr.biegala.pl/foto/displayimage.php?pid=342&fullsize=1 http://piotr.biegala.pl/foto/displayimage.php?pid=343&fullsize=1 -- [a]
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
Anselm R Garbe writes: > "[...] as even refueling the car required lifting the hood, filling the > tank with gasoline (only 24 litres[1]), then adding two-stroke oil and > shaking it back and forth to mix." Never mind that bit of compile-time configuration -- look at this filth! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Trabant_RS02%28ThKraft%29.jpg People who paint their cars should be stabbed to death! With a configure script! I love milking cows that have a single pre-determined pattern of black and white spots!! CAKE LACED WITH PCP FOR MY BIRTHDAY!!
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
Uriel writes: > If you define your personal identity based on the colors of your fucking > window manager I feel sorry for your pathetic worthless life. Have you considered smoking less PCP?
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 22:31:38 +0100 Uriel wrote: > On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 2:20 PM, pancake wrote: > > anonymous wrote: > >>> > >>> Having said that, in case of rfork vice versa from FreeBSD. > >>> > >> > >> Yes, I am talking about FreeBSD. With configure you can make your > >> program portable between FreeBSD and Linux. Most probably other > >> systems won't implement clone/rfork their own way so program will be > >> portable between all systems with some kind of rfork implementation. > >> > > > > in that specific case i would prefer to use __FreeBSD__ ifdef instead of a > > configure stage. > > This is totally and completely RETARDED. #ifdefs are a disgrace and > people that use them should be shot on sight. if you deny ifdefs for minimal portability fixes and deny configure options to specify OS or way to compile this program you are denying also portability and incrementing the complexity in development and structuration.
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
On 02/01/2010 10:25 PM, Uriel wrote: > If you define your personal identity based on the colors of your > fucking window manager I feel sorry for your pathetic worthless life. This is not the first time that you confuse cause and result. Additionally, you seem to not have a fucking clue about people's different perception of the world around them (e.g. emotional/biophysical influence on colors) or the most mundane knowledge of psychophysics in general. You should definitely stop talking about this topic if you don't want to ridicule yourself anymore.
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
> If you define your personal identity based on the colors of your > fucking window manager I feel sorry for your pathetic worthless life. > > uriel Please keep these unconstrained insults coming, I laughed heartily at the quoted.
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
> Out of curiosity: what were the other reasons and what did you settle on > instead (if anything)? Windows (and the iPhone) M.
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
> You idiots keep missing the point: if you need to change the colors to > improve your productivity then either the original colors were totally > broken and the developer that picked them should get a clue and fix > them, or your brain is broken, and you should stop using computers if > you can't deal with sane colors. > > One has to wonder by what miracle of god people managed to work for > centuries without being able to change the color of their pens and > papers! An example: I find apps with a white background a problem. A white background is shining a light from your monitor into your eyes, it's a bit like trying to read a book outside in direct sunshine, the book is too bright. Most people seem to prefer a white background as it's natural but I appreciate an option to make it black. BTW do you talk to people like this you meet on a day to day basis? You make some good points but your choice of language makes you loose a lot of gravitas.
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
Uriel dixit (2010-02-01, 22:30): > On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 2:06 PM, anonymous wrote: > >> Having said that, in case of rfork vice versa from FreeBSD. > > > > Yes, I am talking about FreeBSD. With configure you can make your > > program portable between FreeBSD and Linux. Most probably other > > systems won't implement clone/rfork their own way so program will be > > portable between all systems with some kind of rfork implementation. > > This is bullshit, one of the reasons I gave up using FreeBSD long ago > is because so much crap software that used auto*hell would blow up > when trying to build it on FreeBSD, and trying to fix up auto*hell so > the damned thing would build was a fucking nightmare. Out of curiosity: what were the other reasons and what did you settle on instead (if anything)? -- [a]
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
On Mon 01 Feb 2010 at 13:30:00 PST Uriel wrote: On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 2:06 PM, anonymous wrote: Having said that, in case of rfork vice versa from FreeBSD. Yes, I am talking about FreeBSD. With configure you can make your program portable between FreeBSD and Linux. Most probably other systems won't implement clone/rfork their own way so program will be portable between all systems with some kind of rfork implementation. This is bullshit, one of the reasons I gave up using FreeBSD long ago is because so much crap software that used auto*hell would blow up when trying to build it on FreeBSD, and trying to fix up auto*hell so the damned thing would build was a fucking nightmare. Perhaps that was a problem "long ago" but it doesn't seem to be a problem *now*. I've been using FreeBSD since release 7.0 and have never had a problem with configure.
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 3:46 PM, Anselm R Garbe wrote: > On 1 February 2010 13:30, wrote: >> experts rule: Actually they don't want! Ever seen a suckless car, or >> mobile phone? > > There was the DDR Trabant, which I consider quite close to a suckless > car: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabant > > As for a mobile phone I'd say that the iphone is quite suckless in > some respects. Afaik its UI is not very customisable and it runs only > 1 app at a time which is a nice restriction and eliminates a whole > bunch of problems (well and has positive side-effect on power > consumption as well). I hate apple and the iphone with passion, but this is one thing they got completely right: all the morons that claim they need to waste their life fiddling around with stupid colors and shit have been proven wrong by the millions of people that use iPhones without any need for such crap. uriel > Cheers, > Anselm > >
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 3:26 PM, markus schnalke wrote: > [2010-02-01 13:06] Anselm R Garbe >> On 1 February 2010 12:52, wrote: >> > >> > This is my PC and I decide what colours are used. >> >> To be fair Uriel isn't completely wrong. In an ideal world everyone >> would just use the software as is and not waste time on fiddling >> around with colors and such. But obviously a lot of people like >> customizing things/making them different to the default. I'm not sure >> what the reason is [...] > > Reasons to change the colors are that this may improve your > productivity or comfort. You idiots keep missing the point: if you need to change the colors to improve your productivity then either the original colors were totally broken and the developer that picked them should get a clue and fix them, or your brain is broken, and you should stop using computers if you can't deal with sane colors. One has to wonder by what miracle of god people managed to work for centuries without being able to change the color of their pens and papers! uriel > The point it, that colors are nearly completely unrelated to the > functionality of the program. They are only cosmetic, and thus > everthing related to them should not add complexity in any way. > > I'd adjust the colors on my computer though, but by editing the code > directly. > > But tagging rules are an example of custumization of dwm, that does > not directly changes it's functions, but how it operates in the > specific environment. This is similar to mailcap, termcap and the > like. > > In my eyes, this is where ``configuration'' is important. (In contrast > to colors, which are only cosmetic, and layouting algorithms which are > basic functionality and thus should be changed in the main source > directly, if at all.) > > > meillo > >
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 2:20 PM, pancake wrote: > anonymous wrote: >>> >>> Having said that, in case of rfork vice versa from FreeBSD. >>> >> >> Yes, I am talking about FreeBSD. With configure you can make your >> program portable between FreeBSD and Linux. Most probably other >> systems won't implement clone/rfork their own way so program will be >> portable between all systems with some kind of rfork implementation. >> > > in that specific case i would prefer to use __FreeBSD__ ifdef instead of a > configure stage. This is totally and completely RETARDED. #ifdefs are a disgrace and people that use them should be shot on sight. uriel > But for -lpthread and -pthread ..i will probably use a configure stage. > because its something freebsd-specific for linking. > > --pancake > >
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 2:06 PM, anonymous wrote: >> Having said that, in case of rfork vice versa from FreeBSD. > > Yes, I am talking about FreeBSD. With configure you can make your > program portable between FreeBSD and Linux. Most probably other > systems won't implement clone/rfork their own way so program will be > portable between all systems with some kind of rfork implementation. This is bullshit, one of the reasons I gave up using FreeBSD long ago is because so much crap software that used auto*hell would blow up when trying to build it on FreeBSD, and trying to fix up auto*hell so the damned thing would build was a fucking nightmare. On the other hand programs without auto*hell that were in the ports tree 'just worked' (while the ones that used auto*hell and were in the ports tree just wasted my fucking times running 'tests' for shit that the packager already knew). uriel
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 12:16 PM, Nicolai Waniek wrote: > On 02/01/2010 12:02 PM, Uriel wrote: >> People are retards that should get a life, and developers that can't >> pick bearable colors should not pick colors (just ask for advice from >> an artists as Rob did for acme and rio). > > Desktop Look&Feel Communism up ahead. > Yours is the most retarded and human-diversification-ignoring comment I read > in > a long while now on this mailing list. If you define your personal identity based on the colors of your fucking window manager I feel sorry for your pathetic worthless life. uriel
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
Hah, a trabbie sucks less?! That's pure idiocy!
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
Anselm R Garbe dixit (2010-02-01, 15:58): > On 1 February 2010 15:49, wrote: > > * Anselm R Garbe [2010-02-01 15:48]: > >> On 1 February 2010 13:30, wrote: > >> > experts rule: Actually they don't want! Ever seen a suckless car, or > >> > mobile phone? > >> > >> There was the DDR Trabant, which I consider quite close to a suckless > >> car: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabant > > > > Well, Trabi is close to suckless, I agree. I still enjoy the simplicity > > when I > > have a ride with an owner of an old one occasionally. But it is not safe, > > for instance. Safety, in turn, is generally important, but not that much an > > issue for the everyday home-work-back trip in a large city. > > Security is relative with a car like the Trabant. Back in GDR times it > was rather secure since it's maximum speed was around 120km/h and > roads weren't as crowded as today and hence car accidents were a rare > occasion. Driving a Trabant today is surely a security risk but so is > driving an original Mini Cooper as well or some other classic car. That's major bullshit. Please... -- [a]
Re: [dev] Non-tiling WM that can do tags?
On Jan 31, 2010 at 12:47 PM, Nathan Neff wrote: > Does anyone know of a non-tiling window manager that allows you to tag > windows like wmii does? > > Perhaps a plugin for Openbox where I can do wmii-like tag switching, and > tag a client with multiple tags so that's it's visible on multiple > desktops/tags? To some extent openbox can do this with the default config...you can 'sticky' a client window so that it appears on all workspaces. You can also define certain clients to open on certain workspaces by default, much like dwm/wmii.
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
On 1 February 2010 15:49, wrote: > * Anselm R Garbe [2010-02-01 15:48]: >> On 1 February 2010 13:30, wrote: >> > experts rule: Actually they don't want! Ever seen a suckless car, or >> > mobile phone? >> >> There was the DDR Trabant, which I consider quite close to a suckless >> car: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabant > > Well, Trabi is close to suckless, I agree. I still enjoy the simplicity when I > have a ride with an owner of an old one occasionally. But it is not safe, > for instance. Safety, in turn, is generally important, but not that much an > issue for the everyday home-work-back trip in a large city. Security is relative with a car like the Trabant. Back in GDR times it was rather secure since it's maximum speed was around 120km/h and roads weren't as crowded as today and hence car accidents were a rare occasion. Driving a Trabant today is surely a security risk but so is driving an original Mini Cooper as well or some other classic car. Cheers, Anselm
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
* Anselm R Garbe [2010-02-01 15:48]: > On 1 February 2010 13:30, wrote: > > experts rule: Actually they don't want! Ever seen a suckless car, or > > mobile phone? > > There was the DDR Trabant, which I consider quite close to a suckless > car: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabant Well, Trabi is close to suckless, I agree. I still enjoy the simplicity when I have a ride with an owner of an old one occasionally. But it is not safe, for instance. Safety, in turn, is generally important, but not that much an issue for the everyday home-work-back trip in a large city. > As for a mobile phone I'd say that the iphone is quite suckless in > some respects. Afaik its UI is not very customisable and it runs only > 1 app at a time which is a nice restriction and eliminates a whole > bunch of problems (well and has positive side-effect on power > consumption as well). In the cited respects, maybe. But a mobile phone with integrated camera, touch screen, 'apps' for learning languages, etc. is as much suckless as an axe with a door bell, toilet paper and nuclear power generator. -- stanio_
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
A remark about the Trabant, quote from the Wikipedia article "[...] as even refueling the car required lifting the hood, filling the tank with gasoline (only 24 litres[1]), then adding two-stroke oil and shaking it back and forth to mix." This isn't correct, in the GDR each petrol station had petrol that was prepared for the Trabant, there was no such thing as mixing the two stroke-oil and shaking, that is absolute nonsense (it is kind of true if you have such a car nowadays since petrol stations stopped to sell two stroke fuel). Cheers, Anselm
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
On 1 February 2010 13:30, wrote: > experts rule: Actually they don't want! Ever seen a suckless car, or > mobile phone? There was the DDR Trabant, which I consider quite close to a suckless car: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabant As for a mobile phone I'd say that the iphone is quite suckless in some respects. Afaik its UI is not very customisable and it runs only 1 app at a time which is a nice restriction and eliminates a whole bunch of problems (well and has positive side-effect on power consumption as well). Cheers, Anselm
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
[2010-02-01 13:06] Anselm R Garbe > On 1 February 2010 12:52, wrote: > > > > This is my PC and I decide what colours are used. > > To be fair Uriel isn't completely wrong. In an ideal world everyone > would just use the software as is and not waste time on fiddling > around with colors and such. But obviously a lot of people like > customizing things/making them different to the default. I'm not sure > what the reason is [...] Reasons to change the colors are that this may improve your productivity or comfort. The point it, that colors are nearly completely unrelated to the functionality of the program. They are only cosmetic, and thus everthing related to them should not add complexity in any way. I'd adjust the colors on my computer though, but by editing the code directly. But tagging rules are an example of custumization of dwm, that does not directly changes it's functions, but how it operates in the specific environment. This is similar to mailcap, termcap and the like. In my eyes, this is where ``configuration'' is important. (In contrast to colors, which are only cosmetic, and layouting algorithms which are basic functionality and thus should be changed in the main source directly, if at all.) meillo
Re: [dev] [surf] script.js
This works:
window.alert('test');
Numbered links still don't, I'll try to fix them.
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 01:06:09PM +, Anselm R Garbe wrote: > To be fair Uriel isn't completely wrong. In an ideal world everyone > would just use the software as is and not waste time on fiddling > around with colors and such. But obviously a lot of people like > customizing things/making them different to the default. I'm not sure > what the reason is, but people fiddle around their cars, by bigger > wheels, bigger exhausts, make the windows black etc. Same with > software and desktop setups. Yes, he is completely wrong. Using software as is means using a software with the developer's tastes, not mine. That's a totally retarded concept (almost like the previous Uriel's statement). It's not only a matter of colors, but most important things like fonts, key bindings, and so forth. That's where config.h wins againts initrc.local, where you can't also configure the PLAN9 base (well, you can't but it's useless) without have to change the shesbang of werc.bin. > So the ideal world doesn't exist, however we think the lesser options > there are, the better. The best tools are those that have no options, > like nearly no one changes the look of the vacuum cleaner once bought, > or of your micro wave, or of your iron board, or nearly no one > repaints the case of a TV. The ideal world does exists: we have suckless software and config.h. Well, we also have werc. The best tools are those which are better. Period. Less options is not better, the need to have less options converge with a better software. It's different. In the real world, you don't have any real advantages by changing how the vacuum cleaner looks like, while you obviously will find much more comfortable a font (or color) which fits well your eyes; expecially if you spend much of your time ahead a monitor. This will make you less distract, much more efficient and productive and also much happy. That's our real perfect world. > The point is people would be able doing much more useful stuff when > they won't spend their time with fiddling around with things that are > not mandatory == eg not customising cars but coming up with some great > philosophy instead ;) Philosophy is nothing if not applied to the real world. If it doesn't fits with the real world, then is a bad philosophy (or, this is the case, retarded). Regards, Claudio M. Alessi -- JID: smoppy AT gmail.com WWW: http://cma.teroristi.org
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
On 11:15 Mon 01 Feb, Anselm R Garbe wrote: > Well if you ask artists they will come up with gradients, translucency > and other bullshit. I think the default color scheme in dwm is great. Then you are asking the wrong "artists". > >> I know you will say there shouldn't be any options, but even werc has > >> options ;) Dwm stands out from the other suckless projects in that it's a great piece of software with adequate settings as is, even installed from binary. Dwm doesn't really have any options if you look at it from this angle. Perhaps the default settings could be improved to make dwm even more usable/perfect straight out of the box. I agree with Uriel, optionless is an improvement on suckless. A small shift in attitude that could improve the software. -- TWFB - PGP: D7A420B3
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
* Anselm R Garbe [2010-02-01 14:09]: > On 1 February 2010 12:52, wrote: > >> People are retards that should get a life, > >> [...] > >> shortcuts are part of the UI which should be sane and consistent. > > > > This is my PC and I decide what colours are used. > like nearly no one changes the look of the vacuum cleaner once bought, > or of your micro wave, or of your iron board, or nearly no one > repaints the case of a TV. When I am looking at terminal most of the day, it does matter whether its color is gentle to my eyes, or they get tired after 2 hours. And if non of the standard configurations does, I appreciate when I'm able to to set it to what I feel is gentle. Even when buying a vacuum cleaner you have preferences. You have to go for specific model rather than configuring one yourself, which is a bit like precompiled stuff you'll never be able to make clean && make the way you like. In software you have all the freedom to make things modular and still maintainable and sane, that's the difference. In hardware you don't. Especially in 'hype' segments, where marketing experts rule: Actually they don't want! Ever seen a suckless car, or mobile phone? -- stanio_
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
anonymous wrote: Having said that, in case of rfork vice versa from FreeBSD. Yes, I am talking about FreeBSD. With configure you can make your program portable between FreeBSD and Linux. Most probably other systems won't implement clone/rfork their own way so program will be portable between all systems with some kind of rfork implementation. in that specific case i would prefer to use __FreeBSD__ ifdef instead of a configure stage. But for -lpthread and -pthread ..i will probably use a configure stage. because its something freebsd-specific for linking. --pancake
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
On 1 February 2010 13:06, anonymous wrote: >> Having said that, in case of rfork vice versa from FreeBSD. > > Yes, I am talking about FreeBSD. With configure you can make your > program portable between FreeBSD and Linux. Most probably other > systems won't implement clone/rfork their own way so program will be > portable between all systems with some kind of rfork implementation. Well in such a case you might want to provide an abstraction like implementing pclone() and that is implemented as rfork on FreeBSD and clone on Linux and then you provide two Makefiles or config.mk's for inclusion, one building pclone() using rfork that is being used on FreeBSD and the other one building it using clone() on Linux. I can't see why you'd want configure or something similar for such kind of stuff. Cheers, Anselm
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
> Having said that, in case of rfork vice versa from FreeBSD. Yes, I am talking about FreeBSD. With configure you can make your program portable between FreeBSD and Linux. Most probably other systems won't implement clone/rfork their own way so program will be portable between all systems with some kind of rfork implementation.
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
On 1 February 2010 12:52, wrote: >> People are retards that should get a life, and developers that can't >> pick bearable colors should not pick colors (just ask for advice from >> an artists as Rob did for acme and rio). Layout algorithms are more an >> intrinsic part of the application and should not be considered 'an >> option' (and configuring them via a .h file is plain idiotic), >> shortcuts are part of the UI which should be sane and consistent. > > This is my PC and I decide what colours are used. To be fair Uriel isn't completely wrong. In an ideal world everyone would just use the software as is and not waste time on fiddling around with colors and such. But obviously a lot of people like customizing things/making them different to the default. I'm not sure what the reason is, but people fiddle around their cars, by bigger wheels, bigger exhausts, make the windows black etc. Same with software and desktop setups. So the ideal world doesn't exist, however we think the lesser options there are, the better. The best tools are those that have no options, like nearly no one changes the look of the vacuum cleaner once bought, or of your micro wave, or of your iron board, or nearly no one repaints the case of a TV. The point is people would be able doing much more useful stuff when they won't spend their time with fiddling around with things that are not mandatory == eg not customising cars but coming up with some great philosophy instead ;) Cheers, Anselm
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
> People are retards that should get a life, and developers that can't > pick bearable colors should not pick colors (just ask for advice from > an artists as Rob did for acme and rio). Layout algorithms are more an > intrinsic part of the application and should not be considered 'an > option' (and configuring them via a .h file is plain idiotic), > shortcuts are part of the UI which should be sane and consistent. This is my PC and I decide what colours are used. Jon.
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
On 1 February 2010 11:45, pancake wrote: > Anselm R Garbe wrote: People have different taste regarding the colors, fonts, layout algorithms, shortcuts etc. >>> >>> People are retards that should get a life, and developers that can't >>> pick bearable colors should not pick colors (just ask for advice from >>> an artists as Rob did for acme and rio). Layout algorithms are more an >>> intrinsic part of the application and should not be considered 'an >>> option' (and configuring them via a .h file is plain idiotic), >>> shortcuts are part of the UI which should be sane and consistent. >>> >> >> Well if you ask artists they will come up with gradients, translucency >> and other bullshit. I think the default color scheme in dwm is great. >> > > I hate it ;) The radioactive blue and white burns my eyes. I use black, > gray and orange. Well it is very similar to the color scheme of Norton Commander, Windows 3.x, Windows 95 and Windows XP with the classic UI. I think that blue/grey/white is the most widespread default color scheme. And following the acme approach == asking artists will always result in big arguments. I for example hate the acme or Plan 9 color scheme, it looks so 1980ish and to some extend I doubt that Rob or anyone else asked a well recognised UI designer for the color scheme. Obviously I didn't ask UI designers either, but I followed the MS scheme which did some research in this area, at least in Windows 95 for sure. Cheers, Anselm
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
Anselm R Garbe wrote: People have different taste regarding the colors, fonts, layout algorithms, shortcuts etc. People are retards that should get a life, and developers that can't pick bearable colors should not pick colors (just ask for advice from an artists as Rob did for acme and rio). Layout algorithms are more an intrinsic part of the application and should not be considered 'an option' (and configuring them via a .h file is plain idiotic), shortcuts are part of the UI which should be sane and consistent. Well if you ask artists they will come up with gradients, translucency and other bullshit. I think the default color scheme in dwm is great. I hate it ;) The radioactive blue and white burns my eyes. I use black, gray and orange. there's no standards about colour tastes. Well I disagree, there is no real difference between werc's initrc[.local] and dwm's config.h. The difference is that one is at compile time and werc cannot be compiled. So yeah, no difference at all. --pancake
Re: [dev] [dwm] sdl12 / dwm 5.6 /5.7.2 ioquake3 problems
[2010-02-01 09:58] Nicolai Waniek > Oh and what he might mean with outline moving: just drawing the outline of a > window that is to be moved, looking as if you only move around its border to > the window's future position and not actually moving the window until you have > decided where to place it. Smooth moving of clients affects only floating mode. Floating mode is mainly a compatibility feature for broken software, and most dwm users will seldom move a client with the mouse in floating mode. As implementing a ``outline moving'' feature adds complexity to dwm, and there is nearly no gain from it, it will hardly appear in dwm. meillo
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
On 02/01/2010 12:02 PM, Uriel wrote: > People are retards that should get a life, and developers that can't > pick bearable colors should not pick colors (just ask for advice from > an artists as Rob did for acme and rio). Desktop Look&Feel Communism up ahead. Yours is the most retarded and human-diversification-ignoring comment I read in a long while now on this mailing list.
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
On 1 February 2010 11:02, Uriel wrote: > On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 8:18 AM, Anselm R Garbe wrote: >> I agree to all you said, except: >> >> On 31 January 2010 22:00, Uriel wrote: >>> No, it is not OK, the gratuitous fiddling with the .h files is one of >>> the most retarded things about dwm. >> >> If you know a better way, please let me know. The idea behind config.h >> is to provide a mechanism where people can customize and extend dwm >> without hacking into core dwm.c. > > Like with auto*hell, the idea is retarded, so the implementation can't not > suck. It's not like configure, it simply eases source modifications/patching. >> People have different taste regarding the colors, fonts, layout algorithms, >> shortcuts etc. > > People are retards that should get a life, and developers that can't > pick bearable colors should not pick colors (just ask for advice from > an artists as Rob did for acme and rio). Layout algorithms are more an > intrinsic part of the application and should not be considered 'an > option' (and configuring them via a .h file is plain idiotic), > shortcuts are part of the UI which should be sane and consistent. Well if you ask artists they will come up with gradients, translucency and other bullshit. I think the default color scheme in dwm is great. >> I know you will say there shouldn't be any options, but even werc has >> options ;) > > Werc has few (if any) options that are not intrinsically linked to > *functionality* whatever a page is a wiki or a blog is not an 'option' > it is simply a different functionality part of the same app, and > things like page titles are also an intrinsic part of the application > (just as an app name is not an 'option' in a window manager but an > intrinsic part of its functionality). Well I disagree, there is no real difference between werc's initrc[.local] and dwm's config.h. Cheers, Anselm
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 8:18 AM, Anselm R Garbe wrote: > I agree to all you said, except: > > On 31 January 2010 22:00, Uriel wrote: >> No, it is not OK, the gratuitous fiddling with the .h files is one of >> the most retarded things about dwm. > > If you know a better way, please let me know. The idea behind config.h > is to provide a mechanism where people can customize and extend dwm > without hacking into core dwm.c. Like with auto*hell, the idea is retarded, so the implementation can't not suck. > People have different taste regarding the colors, fonts, layout algorithms, > shortcuts etc. People are retards that should get a life, and developers that can't pick bearable colors should not pick colors (just ask for advice from an artists as Rob did for acme and rio). Layout algorithms are more an intrinsic part of the application and should not be considered 'an option' (and configuring them via a .h file is plain idiotic), shortcuts are part of the UI which should be sane and consistent. > I know you will say there shouldn't be any options, but even werc has options > ;) Werc has few (if any) options that are not intrinsically linked to *functionality* whatever a page is a wiki or a blog is not an 'option' it is simply a different functionality part of the same app, and things like page titles are also an intrinsic part of the application (just as an app name is not an 'option' in a window manager but an intrinsic part of its functionality). uriel > Cheers, > Anselm > >
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 09:48:37AM +, Anselm R Garbe wrote: > IMHO such a package manager is not needed, all we need are static > executables of each tool what I try to achieve with static linux. Only > exception are config files for daemons and tools, however this is all > achievable using git or rsync for upgrading. > > So there is really no need for a package management system ;) I was talking on a more general problem. Though it's just a concept or maybe a dream. :) In this world, developers distribute their software in native source tarballs containing human- but not machine-readable instructions for building, installation, uninstallation etc. Many people prefer manual searching, downloading and installation just because they want to deal with native software packages provided by software developers, not intermediate maintainers. Why not automate our actions, retaining flexibility and transparency? No package repositories, just package metadata servers with package URLs; developers registering their (native) packages at that servers; servers synchronizing metadata between each other; define the metadata format allowing automated package management. Though people may still do all the stuff manually. And, what was this thread about? Annoying inconsistency of system interfaces (due to bloated and at the same time incomplete standards) leaves us without guarantee that something will work somewhere. Aren't we sick of that? In a good world, software developers would follow systems approach when making their software be used world-wide. They rely upon simple well-defined interfaces. Interfaces are to be registered at metadata servers too. Packages are tarballs to be downloaded, untarred and done some actions defined by package metadata (usually make install, make uninstall etc.) after cd'ing into the untarred directory. (That's one of possible ways.) If something doesn't work, it means a bug in implementation of some package, i.e. behavior violating some of the documented interfaces. That bug can be simply discovered and fixed. Nice dream, isn't it?
Re: [dev] [dwm] sdl12 / dwm 5.6 /5.7.2 ioquake3 problems
On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 07:05:11AM +, Anselm R Garbe wrote: > [...] > Thanks for reporting this issue, I will look into it, most likely it's > sdl brokeness. Will see if there is a workaround. > [...] Given that the issue also appears with Awesome, I'd indeed say it's SDL having a problem with non-reparenting window managers. -- GCS/IT/M d- s+:- a-- C++ UL+++ US UB++ P+++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ o-- K- w--- ?O M-- ?V PS++ PE- Y++ PGP+++ t+ 5 X+ R tv b+++ DI+++ D+++ G+ e h! r y+ Gregor Best pgpo8A4u2ZbQh.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
On 1 February 2010 09:38, Dmitry Maluka wrote: > On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 11:00:58PM +0100, Uriel wrote: >> There are retarded standards for all kinds of crap, too bad that there >> are thousands of standards and nobody follows them anyway. >> >> It is simple, the system user knows much better where shit is than the >> developer can dream knowing, if the developer tries to guess he will >> invariably fuck it up and waste even more of the user's time. >> >> If you want pre-chewed software, use whatever packaging system your OS >> provides and let packagers deal with this, expecting the original >> software developers to do it is extremely naive. > > I think a lot on a concept of an OS-independent package manager destined > not just to automate software installation but to make software > development and distribution more consistent. (And to get rid of extra > layer of software maintainance for each OS.) In this hypothetical > concept, package is a unit of world-wide software distribution with some > dependencies, but (sic!) dependencies are not just other packages - they > are _interfaces_ provided by other packages, by the base system or > whatever. This is a simple and evident idea based on an assumption that > any system relies upon well-defined interfaces provided by other > systems. Those interfaces are documented by humans in systems > documentation or in well known standards. Unfortunately, this would work > in an ideal world or at least a good one, not in this one. There are > some good standards but they are a puny minority. IMHO such a package manager is not needed, all we need are static executables of each tool what I try to achieve with static linux. Only exception are config files for daemons and tools, however this is all achievable using git or rsync for upgrading. So there is really no need for a package management system ;) Cheers, Anselm
Re: [dev] [OFFTOPIC] Recommended meta-build system
On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 11:00:58PM +0100, Uriel wrote: > There are retarded standards for all kinds of crap, too bad that there > are thousands of standards and nobody follows them anyway. > > It is simple, the system user knows much better where shit is than the > developer can dream knowing, if the developer tries to guess he will > invariably fuck it up and waste even more of the user's time. > > If you want pre-chewed software, use whatever packaging system your OS > provides and let packagers deal with this, expecting the original > software developers to do it is extremely naive. I think a lot on a concept of an OS-independent package manager destined not just to automate software installation but to make software development and distribution more consistent. (And to get rid of extra layer of software maintainance for each OS.) In this hypothetical concept, package is a unit of world-wide software distribution with some dependencies, but (sic!) dependencies are not just other packages - they are _interfaces_ provided by other packages, by the base system or whatever. This is a simple and evident idea based on an assumption that any system relies upon well-defined interfaces provided by other systems. Those interfaces are documented by humans in systems documentation or in well known standards. Unfortunately, this would work in an ideal world or at least a good one, not in this one. There are some good standards but they are a puny minority.
Re: [dev] [dwm] sdl12 / dwm 5.6 /5.7.2 ioquake3 problems
Oh and what he might mean with outline moving: just drawing the outline of a window that is to be moved, looking as if you only move around its border to the window's future position and not actually moving the window until you have decided where to place it.
Re: [dev] [dwm] sdl12 / dwm 5.6 /5.7.2 ioquake3 problems
On 02/01/2010 08:05 AM, Anselm R Garbe wrote: > What do you exactly mean? I guess he means that when dragging windows in float mode, some applications behave like f***. For example, start a ddd session over ssh and move the window around when the debugger is running. Though I'm using xmonad, the behaviour might appear in dwm as well. regards, nicolai
