[tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread NoOp 
On 09/08/2011 07:07 AM, Robert Parker wrote:
> There is one thing more irritating than top posting. People who rant about it.

There was no "rant". Perhaps you might take time to read the post *and*
review the threads in these lists (particularly the 'users' list?

Other lists (as I've demonstrated) provide clear instructions the
guidelines list users are expected to follow. The point is that LO does
not, and instead uses a link to a vague wiki at the bottom of list
messages rather than posting guidelines upfront. This tends to lead to
ongoing debates on how list posters are to behave.

As mentioned: I don't really care if the consensuses is to only top-post
on these lists. My primary consideration is to have an established set
of posting guidelines (as in the examples provided) so that we no longer
have to resort to the 'mine is better' model. It makes it easier for all
users; particularly new users as it's then rather simple to point to the
guideline url/page and *politely* ask them to abide by the list guidelines.

Why is it that after all of the previous debates, posts, aggravation,
that LO can't just put up a page regarding list guidelines?

Thats a question btw, not a "rant".

Following /not/ snipped on purpose:
> 
> On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 7:16 AM, NoOp  wrote:
>> For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please
>> consider bottom posting with interspersed replies.
>>
>> I realiz(s)e that the existing:
>> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/
>> doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom
>> posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to:
>> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>> That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to:
>> http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
>> which includes this bit:
>> http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3
>>
>> 
>> 2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text?
>>
>> Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom,
>> and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially
>> people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would
>> qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if
>> they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted
>> text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will
>> not work, if you place the quoted text below your response.
>>
>> Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but
>> since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no
>> idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the
>> referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on.
>> In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for
>> people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire
>> article, if the context is not obvious.
>>
>> And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see
>> the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.)
>>
>> Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of
>> quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote,
>> in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text
>> you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer
>> to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can
>> delete these parts.
>>
>> So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste
>> time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can
>> achieve by such simple means?
>> 
>>
>> and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the
>> desired guideline.
>>
>> Samples of similar on other lists:
>>
>> http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html
>> 
>> Top-posting vs bottom-posting.
>>
>>Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it
>> the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates
>> about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the
>> forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with
>> trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is
>> equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place
>> your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon.
>> The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting.
>> 
>>
>> http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists
>> 
>> Proper quoting:
>>
>> Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is
>> easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules:
>>
>> 
>>
>>Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to.
>> ...
>> 
>>
>> and even:
>> http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html
>> 
>> Replying
>> When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your
>> respo

[tdf-discuss] Re: Support for Versions, Full-Screen, and Resume in OS X Lion

2011-09-08 Thread Charles Jenkins 


On 2011-09-08 16:00, Karl wrote:

What I know from other platforms (Solaris/Linux) is that autosave
saves into a hidden file in the background not destroying your last
saved document. Just in case of an unforeseen shutdown of the system,
a power outage or a crash of the whole soffice suite, X11 system or OS
these hidden files remain in background. Restarting soffice next time
finds all the leftover hidden files from last time and offers to
recover them.


Karl,

You and I are talking about two different things that have unfortunately
been given the same name.

You're thinking of the familiar feature which automatically backs up
what you're working on to another backup file.

I agree with you. LO must keep that feature!

I'm talking of OS X Lion's new trick which is *almost* the same thing,
but instead of saving to another off-stage file, it saves to the actual
document file you're working on -- before you've decided whether you
want to keep the changes. Maybe you don't realize you've even made
changes. Old data gets backed up to the off-stage file...unless the
document is stored in the wrong place, in which case the old, good data
just gets thrown away.

Check out this article that just popped up today:
http://tidbits.com/article/12483

--

Charles



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Support for Versions, Full-Screen, and Resume in OS X Lion

2011-09-08 Thread Karl Behler 

Hi Charles,

this is only on autosave and recover.

What I know from other platforms (Solaris/Linux) is that autosave saves 
into a hidden file in the background not destroying your last saved 
document. Just in case of an unforeseen shutdown of the system, a power 
outage or a crash of the whole soffice suite, X11 system or OS these 
hidden files remain in background. Restarting soffice next time  finds 
all the leftover hidden files from last time and offers to recover them.

(Of course a regular save and exit from soffice deletes all hidden files.)
This is an important and yet simple funcionality, which should not be 
missed to implement.
Why? Don't forget the multiuser systems, the world is not made of single 
user pc's. Imagine people working on a server system with multiple users 
(e.g. a MacServer)? As a system administrator you may want to shutdown 
the system for maintenance, or any other outage breaks the server 
connections and your boss or any other user is cutoff, went home, has 
gone for a coffee, or whatever you can imagine without logging out and 
saving his work properly. Ok, they need punishment, but it's easy to be 
polite to them. And you too will be very satisfied to know that there is 
an autosave feature which avoids people losing their work in any of 
these cases.

Please do not abandon the autosave and recovery feature from soffice.
If it's missing on some platforms it should be implemented asap in the 
way it is already present in last Staroffice or Openoffice releases.


I agree with most of the rest of your contribution.

Regards,

Karl

On 08.09.11 16:47, Charles Jenkins wrote:

I was wrong about something in my earlier email. I suggested that these
features, including Resume, would be nice to have someday in LO, after
other important bugs and features are dealt with.

I take it back about Resume, because making that work would require
supporting Autosave -- a feature which I am afraid of.

It is my current understanding that Versions only works on HFS+ volumes,
so if an app which autosaves is writing to a FAT32 volume, for instance,
your document gets overwritten every few minutes with the latest
changes, whether you want to keep them or not. Your old versions are
simply lost. Can anyone confirm?

Even when the system works as advertised when saving to HFS+, if you
email a document to a friend for revisions or carry it around on another
storage medium (for example to work on at school), what you get back
will contain only the single, latest version. What do you do with it?
(a) Throw away all the old versions by overwriting the original file?
(b) Remember to change the new file's name and now maintain multiple
files? (c) Port the changes so you have the newest data but can still
believe you could go back to the old?

Keeping multiple files with different names is no different than what we
do now to support separate versions of the same file, but the point is,
Lion encourages the bad option (a) by making saving a no-brainer
process. It trains users NOT to think about what happens to maintain
file data, because saving and autosaving are supposed to always be safe
because you can always go back...a premise that simply is not true.

I have only lost data a few times due to forgetting to save a document,
mostly because of buggy apps which will close without alerting the user
about unsaved data. I'm not afraid of forgetting to save. I'm much more
afraid of making inadvertent changes that then get autosaved, or of
depending upon an old version to be there as promised, but finding it lost.

I hope LO will avoid ever supporting Autosave, and therefore Resume.

--

Charles



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--
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CODAC & IT services ASDEX Upgrade
phon +49 89 3299-1351 fax 3299-961351


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[tdf-discuss] Re: Support for Versions, Full-Screen, and Resume in OS X Lion

2011-09-08 Thread Charles Jenkins 

I was wrong about something in my earlier email. I suggested that these
features, including Resume, would be nice to have someday in LO, after
other important bugs and features are dealt with.

I take it back about Resume, because making that work would require
supporting Autosave -- a feature which I am afraid of.

It is my current understanding that Versions only works on HFS+ volumes,
so if an app which autosaves is writing to a FAT32 volume, for instance,
your document gets overwritten every few minutes with the latest
changes, whether you want to keep them or not. Your old versions are
simply lost. Can anyone confirm?

Even when the system works as advertised when saving to HFS+, if you
email a document to a friend for revisions or carry it around on another
storage medium (for example to work on at school), what you get back
will contain only the single, latest version. What do you do with it?
(a) Throw away all the old versions by overwriting the original file?
(b) Remember to change the new file's name and now maintain multiple
files? (c) Port the changes so you have the newest data but can still
believe you could go back to the old?

Keeping multiple files with different names is no different than what we
do now to support separate versions of the same file, but the point is,
Lion encourages the bad option (a) by making saving a no-brainer
process. It trains users NOT to think about what happens to maintain
file data, because saving and autosaving are supposed to always be safe
because you can always go back...a premise that simply is not true.

I have only lost data a few times due to forgetting to save a document,
mostly because of buggy apps which will close without alerting the user
about unsaved data. I'm not afraid of forgetting to save. I'm much more
afraid of making inadvertent changes that then get autosaved, or of
depending upon an old version to be there as promised, but finding it lost.

I hope LO will avoid ever supporting Autosave, and therefore Resume.

--

Charles



.

PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION: The information contained in this 
electronic transmission, and any documents attached hereto, may contain 
confidential information that is legally privileged and confidential. The 
information is intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named above. If 
you have received this electronic message in error, please notify the sender 
and delete the electronic message. Any disclosure, copying, distribution or the 
taking of any action in reliance on the contents of the information received in 
error is strictly prohibited.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-08 Thread Robert Parker 
There is one thing more irritating than top posting. People who rant about it.

On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 7:16 AM, NoOp  wrote:
> For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please
> consider bottom posting with interspersed replies.
>
> I realiz(s)e that the existing:
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/
> doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom
> posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to:
> http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
> which includes this bit:
> http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3
>
> 
> 2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text?
>
> Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom,
> and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially
> people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would
> qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if
> they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted
> text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will
> not work, if you place the quoted text below your response.
>
> Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but
> since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no
> idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the
> referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on.
> In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for
> people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire
> article, if the context is not obvious.
>
> And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see
> the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.)
>
> Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of
> quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote,
> in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text
> you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer
> to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can
> delete these parts.
>
> So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste
> time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can
> achieve by such simple means?
> 
>
> and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the
> desired guideline.
>
> Samples of similar on other lists:
>
> http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html
> 
> Top-posting vs bottom-posting.
>
>    Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it
> the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates
> about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the
> forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with
> trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is
> equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place
> your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon.
> The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting.
> 
>
> http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists
> 
> Proper quoting:
>
> Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is
> easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules:
>
> 
>
>    Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to.
> ...
> 
>
> and even:
> http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html
> 
> Replying
> When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your
> response with their questions, both so you can answer the actual
> question that was asked, and so everyone else has some idea what you are
> talking about. It is also customary to limit your quoting to the minimum
> possible to get your point across. Take the time to be considerate,
> remember those subscribers who have slow, expensive connections.
> 
>
> Note: that last is liable to go away given the recent
> transition/announcements by Apache regarding mail lists... but it's
> worth mentioning anyway.
>
> Eventually I hope that LO will actually include a link to general
> posting guidelines on the
>  page with complete
> posting guidelines. Even if the final consensus is to only top post...
> at least will help with consistancy on this (users), and the other LO lists.
>
> Added Note: I'd originally sent this to the users list as IMO that is
> where the guidelines are needed most. So there may be some cross posting
> in replies.
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [tdf-discuss] how change macro security level?

2011-09-08 Thread Terrence Enger 
On Thu, 2011-09-08 at 09:35 +0100, Caolán McNamara wrote:
> On Mon, 2011-08-29 at 12:55 -0400, Terrence Enger wrote:
> > On Mon, 2011-08-29 at 09:00 +0100, Caolán McNamara wrote:
> > > On Sun, 2011-08-28 at 07:34 -0400, Terrence Enger wrote:
> > > > The remaining questions are ... Does anybody else share the
> > > > problem of the ineffective "MacroSecurity..." button? 
> > > 
> > > No, works fine here.
> > > 
> > > > Does anybody care?
> > > 
> > > Sure, but it works for me.
> > 
> > Thank you.
> > 
> > I shall relax about the issue until I know more.
> 
> Its because of your --disable-mozilla. The relevant macro security
> dialog code is included in a library only built and installed when moz
> is included. Fixed this now in master to always include the dialog.
> 

Thank you, Caolán.  That is awsome.

Terry.



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Re: [tdf-discuss] how change macro security level?

2011-09-08 Thread Caolán McNamara 
On Mon, 2011-08-29 at 12:55 -0400, Terrence Enger wrote:
> On Mon, 2011-08-29 at 09:00 +0100, Caolán McNamara wrote:
> > On Sun, 2011-08-28 at 07:34 -0400, Terrence Enger wrote:
> > > The remaining questions are ... Does anybody else share the
> > > problem of the ineffective "MacroSecurity..." button? 
> > 
> > No, works fine here.
> > 
> > > Does anybody care?
> > 
> > Sure, but it works for me.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> I shall relax about the issue until I know more.

Its because of your --disable-mozilla. The relevant macro security
dialog code is included in a library only built and installed when moz
is included. Fixed this now in master to always include the dialog.

C.


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