Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict
>> If you are promoting LO because it provides better interoperability, >> shouldn't they be configured as equivalents? You could even prompt users >> on save. Would this break something? > I do not know, as I am not a developer. I have configured my instance of > LibreOffice to replace Calibri and Cambria with Carlito and Caladea > (there is a replacement table in Options > LibreOffice > Fonts). I will > ask developers is this specific replacement, given the pervasiveness of > Calibri and Cambria, can be set as a pre-defined option. IMHO this isn't a good thing. Lots of people expect that LibreOffice would just use the font that is installed. So, for those users using LibreOffice in Windows or in OSX who have access to the MSO fonts, would definitely expect that opening a document that someone else sends your way open with the correct fonts applied. We already have enough issues with interoperability with MS Office - going out of our way to add yet another (a replacement font even if you have the correct font installed presumably legally) seems like asking for trouble. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the replacement table but if it's "replace, even if font is installed" - I'm no fan. Best, Joel -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict
On 27/04/2016 23:54, Mike Hall wrote: > If you are promoting LO because it provides better interoperability, > shouldn't they be configured as equivalents? You could even prompt users > on save. Would this break something? I do not know, as I am not a developer. I have configured my instance of LibreOffice to replace Calibri and Cambria with Carlito and Caladea (there is a replacement table in Options > LibreOffice > Fonts). I will ask developers is this specific replacement, given the pervasiveness of Calibri and Cambria, can be set as a pre-defined option. -- Italo Vignoli - LibreOffice Marketing & PR mobile +39.348.5653829 - email / jabber it...@libreoffice.org hangout / jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com - skype italovignoli GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0 DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict
Le 2016-04-27 16:55, Simon Phipps a écrit : I can't speak to a general recommendation, but this advice from Debian to use Google's compatible free fonts seems good: https://wiki.debian.org/SubstitutingCalibriAndCambriaFonts In fact it makes me wonder if these could be the default equivalents for the C-fonts in LibreOffice? S. Thanks for this information Simon. Not sure if this is found anywhere on the LibreOffice sites/wiki, IMO, it would be useful information to many LibreOffice users. Marc -- Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com http://www.parEntreprise.com parEntreprise.com Supports OpenDocument Formats (ODF) parEntreprise.com Supports http://www.LibreOffice.org -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict
On 27/04/2016 21:57, Italo Vignoli wrote: In fact, they are provided as equivalents, although the software is not configured to handle them as equivalents. If you are promoting LO because it provides better interoperability, shouldn't they be configured as equivalents? You could even prompt users on save. Would this break something? -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net Please help with this important project https://theprostatecancerproject.net Transforming Prostate Cancer Treatment The project aims to transform diagnosis and treatment using ground-breaking computer science to reveal crucial information hidden in the complex mass of data about prostate cancer lets stop prostate cancer logo If you are a man over 60, insist on an annual PSA test, which is your right Regular tests significantly improve early detection of prostate cancer, giving a much better chance of successful treatment -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict
On 27/04/2016 22:55, Simon Phipps wrote: > In fact it makes me wonder if these could be the default equivalents for > the C-fonts in LibreOffice? In fact, they are provided as equivalents, although the software is not configured to handle them as equivalents. -- Italo Vignoli - LibreOffice Marketing & PR mobile +39.348.5653829 - email / jabber it...@libreoffice.org hangout / jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com - skype italovignoli GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0 DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict
On Wed, Apr 27, 2016 at 9:44 PM, Mike Hall wrote: > On 27/04/2016 21:18, Italo Vignoli wrote: > >> By using C-Fonts, you are therefore producing documents with limited >> interoperability >> C-Fonts are not interoperable also in technical terms, >> > That's good information. > > Does TDF have a recommendation for which fonts to use to maximise > interoperability across the common range of OS's? (Quite complex if you > include iOS and Android as well as Win, Mac, nix). Not sure if the generic > 'sans-serif' etc do what the normal user wants. I can't speak to a general recommendation, but this advice from Debian to use Google's compatible free fonts seems good: https://wiki.debian.org/SubstitutingCalibriAndCambriaFonts In fact it makes me wonder if these could be the default equivalents for the C-fonts in LibreOffice? S. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict
On 27/04/2016 21:18, Italo Vignoli wrote: By using C-Fonts, you are therefore producing documents with limited interoperability C-Fonts are not interoperable also in technical terms, That's good information. Does TDF have a recommendation for which fonts to use to maximise interoperability across the common range of OS's? (Quite complex if you include iOS and Android as well as Win, Mac, nix). Not sure if the generic 'sans-serif' etc do what the normal user wants. -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net Please help with this important project https://theprostatecancerproject.net Transforming Prostate Cancer Treatment The project aims to transform diagnosis and treatment using ground-breaking computer science to reveal crucial information hidden in the complex mass of data about prostate cancer lets stop prostate cancer logo If you are a man over 60, insist on an annual PSA test, which is your right Regular tests significantly improve early detection of prostate cancer, giving a much better chance of successful treatment -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict
Yes, the fonts come with Windows, but not with other operating systems. On MacOS, they are legally available with MS Office installed. On Linux, they are not available at all. C-Fonts cannot be legally embedded, although they can be mechanically embedded (and no one warns you about the legal risks). If you receive a document which embeds a C-Font, the font may end up being installed on your system (even if you are not allowed to use it because you do not own a license). Microsoft can legally pursue the owner of the C-Font license. By using C-Fonts, you are therefore producing documents with limited interoperability, even if you are legally allowed to use them (as you own a Windows license). C-Fonts are not interoperable also in technical terms, as they have a peculiar metric size, which is difficult to emulate. This means that a document where a C-Font is replaced with another font will be visually different, to the point that many users will believe that contents are not the same. I hope this helps. On 27/04/2016 20:43, Mike Hall wrote: > On 27/04/2016 13:42, Italo Vignoli wrote: >> Several people at TDF have been involved in the decision process and >> have contributed specific evidence about ODF and OOXML > I zapped your last message, but I wondered whether it was necessary to > have an MSO licence to use Calibri etc. This windows PC, originally Win > 7, now Win 10 has all the MS fonts but has never had MSO installed, > which seems to imply it's Windows rather than Office that brings in the > fonts? -- Italo Vignoli - LibreOffice Marketing & PR mobile +39.348.5653829 - email / jabber it...@libreoffice.org hangout / jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com - skype italovignoli GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0 DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict
On 27/04/2016 13:42, Italo Vignoli wrote: Several people at TDF have been involved in the decision process and have contributed specific evidence about ODF and OOXML I zapped your last message, but I wondered whether it was necessary to have an MSO licence to use Calibri etc. This windows PC, originally Win 7, now Win 10 has all the MS fonts but has never had MSO installed, which seems to imply it's Windows rather than Office that brings in the fonts? -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net Please help with this important project https://theprostatecancerproject.net Transforming Prostate Cancer Treatment The project aims to transform diagnosis and treatment using ground-breaking computer science to reveal crucial information hidden in the complex mass of data about prostate cancer lets stop prostate cancer logo If you are a man over 60, insist on an annual PSA test, which is your right Regular tests significantly improve early detection of prostate cancer, giving a much better chance of successful treatment -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] unsubscribe
-- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] unsubscribe
-- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict
On 26/04/2016 12:46, mjollni...@laposte.net wrote: > Is it correct to say that the Transitionnal OOXML format is not > compliant with any international standard or norm ? Neither ECMA, nor > ISO, nor anything but MS$ itself. OOXML Transitional is not the standard format, but a tweaked version of OOXML integrating bynary blobs and other non standard components, which was supposed to help the transition from the legacy file formats to OOXML Strict (which is the only standard file format). > If so, Does this means that NO version of MS$ office (from 2010 to > the actual) writes BY DEFAULT in a standardized or normalised format. > (cf. > https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc179191%28v=office.16%29.aspx > for default formats) Yes. Every Microsoft Office version since 2007 defaults to OOXML Transitional, implementing a slightly different version of the OOXML Transitional non standard file format. Only MS Office 2013 and MS Office 2016 implement OOXML Strict, with a process that makes it virtually impossible for any normal user to get a real OOXML Strict file format (the user should save the document using the OOXML Strict option - listed as last of the "save as" options - before writing a single character). Because of this behaviour which intentionally prevents the creation of OOXML Strict files, the number of OOXML Strict files available is close to zero. In addition, Microsoft fonts used as default by MS Office since 2007 - known as C-Fonts or Calibri, Cambria, Candara, Consolas, Constantia and Corbel) - can only be used by MS Office licensed customers, as they are included in MS Office EULA, to add another level of incompatibility. > Is anyone confident enough in his knowledge of OOXML to acknowledge > this ? Maybe this place is not the best one to ask the question ? If > so, would please somebody advice me the best place to post the > question ? I am confident enough to answer most questions about OOXML issues. Please do note that after the UK decision on July 22, 2014, not even Microsoft has dared to define OOXML as standard in public, because it is perfectly clear that the file format is not standard and will never be a standard (after nine years and four different implementations of OOXML Transitional, which was supposed to last a maximum of two MS Office versions). -- Italo Vignoli - LibreOffice Marketing & PR mobile +39.348.5653829 - email / jabber it...@libreoffice.org hangout / jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com - skype italovignoli GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0 DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict
On 27/04/2016 10:12, pasqual milvaques wrote: > In the sake of documenting this, the UK Cabinet Office decision can be > found here: > https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/open-standards-for-government/sharing-or-collaborating-with-government-documents Several people at TDF have been involved in the decision process and have contributed specific evidence about ODF and OOXML - not being a standard - to UK Cabinet Office. -- Italo Vignoli - LibreOffice Marketing & PR mobile +39.348.5653829 - email / jabber it...@libreoffice.org hangout / jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com - skype italovignoli GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0 DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict
Hi In the sake of documenting this, the UK Cabinet Office decision can be found here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/open-standards-for-government/sharing-or-collaborating-with-government-documents In this URL there is addditional information about the supoport process: https://standards.data.gov.uk/meeting/technical-standards-panel-meeting-17-march-2014 the main reason behind the ooxml rejection seems to be: We considered ODF and OpenXML in view of the UK Government definition of open standards, which was set following a full public consultation in 2012. ODF appeared to meet the definition. However, OpenXML did not appear to meet the criteria for market support - particularly regarding vendor independence. We found products which appear to implement OpenXML but only the most recent products claim to have the strict implementation and it is not used as a default format in any product. In addition, the development of the standard currently has limited involvement from outside a single supplier of office productivity suites. Thanks El 26/04/16 a les 19:27, Italo Vignoli ha escrit: On 26/04/2016 15:09, pasqual milvaques wrote: The 'transitional' variant of ooxml is specified in Part 4 of ISO/IEC 29500 so it's standard, it's supposed that the features of the transitional variant ease the transition from older formats, I'm not sure if there is a plan for making the strict variant the default in MS Office, in Office 2016 it's not yet OOXML Transitional is definitely not recognized as a standard, and is specified in Part 4 of ISO/IEC 29500 exactly because is not a standard (to make it clear how it differs from the standard). OOXML Transitional was accepted to ease the transition to the standard, and as such should have lasted only a few years, while it has been used by Microsoft as the default OOXML format since forever. In addition, OOXML Transitional is different for each version of MS Office, and the differences are not documented (only the first OOXML Transitional was documented). In addition, OOXML Strict - which is the ONLY accepted standard - is almost impossible to obtain by normal users, as the process is far from the usual one, as in order to have an OOXML Strict you must save the document before performing ANY action (as otherwise the format switches to OOXML Transitional, which is not a standard). UK Cabinet Office has clearly documented the reasons why OOXML is not a standard file format. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted