Re: Using setuptools to make django-admin.py runnable on Windows (#21340)

[Donald Stufft]

On Dec 4, 2013, at 5:51 PM, Florian Apolloner  wrote:

> On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 11:20:39 PM UTC+1, Donald Stufft wrote:
> entry points are kinda wonky with pip 1.4, pip 1.5 makes them sane. You would 
> not need a Windows specific Wheel with pip 1.5
> 
> Is there a test-pypi where I could upload Django packages to test this?

Yes, but it’s down right now :( 

> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Django developers" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/a0af4ac2-bff1-4b7f-af4a-31aa0dd9d120%40googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.


-
Donald Stufft
PGP: 0x6E3CBCE93372DCFA // 7C6B 7C5D 5E2B 6356 A926 F04F 6E3C BCE9 3372 DCFA



signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail

Re: Using setuptools to make django-admin.py runnable on Windows (#21340)

[Florian Apolloner]

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 11:20:39 PM UTC+1, Donald Stufft wrote:
>
> entry points are kinda wonky with pip 1.4, pip 1.5 makes them sane. You 
> would not need a Windows specific Wheel with pip 1.5
>

Is there a test-pypi where I could upload Django packages to test this?

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/a0af4ac2-bff1-4b7f-af4a-31aa0dd9d120%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Re: Using setuptools to make django-admin.py runnable on Windows (#21340)

[Donald Stufft]

On Dec 4, 2013, at 4:31 PM, Florian Apolloner  wrote:

> Oh, one last thing (a few actually):
> How does 'entry_points' work with wheels? 
> Do we need an extra wheel for windows just to get the wrappers right? 
> Can we generate a windows wheel from *nix, or do we need a windows box?
entry points are kinda wonky with pip 1.4, pip 1.5 makes them sane. You would 
not need a Windows specific Wheel with pip 1.5

> Cheers,
> Florian
> 
> 
> On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 10:24:09 PM UTC+1, Florian Apolloner wrote:
> 
> 
> On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 8:24:49 PM UTC+1, Remram wrote:
> December 4 12:43, Florian Apolloner
> To my understanding of 
> https://github.com/pypa/pip/blob/develop/pip/req.py#L633 pip will use 
> setuptools for installing -- so why do you need setuptools in Django itself?
> The point here is to use options that distutils doesn't offer, like 
> entry_points, if they are available.
> 
> Ah, I assumed that the workaround you mentioned would be setuptools just 
> wrapping everything in 'scripts' -- didn't know that you'll have to use 
> 'entry_points' then.
>  
> Also (refering to your first post), why is associating stuff with .py files a 
> bad idea?
> I personally have .py files associated with my text editor. Defaulting them 
> to the system-wide Python 2.7 might do the correct thing in some cases...
> 
> Oh, that makes sense I guess :) 
> 
> Associating .py files with Python is not enough -- only binaries are searched 
> for in the PATH when typing a path-less command name (.com, .exe, .bat and a 
> few others).
>  
> Okay, that's just horrible!
> 
> Which downsides does using 'entry_points' have for a *nix based system? I'd 
> rather not support disutils and setuptools; this just calls out for pain. My 
> last worry (probably needlessly) is that we might run into issues with one of 
> the hundred setuptools versions out there; all together there is distribute, 
> old setuptools, new setuptools and whatever distris like debian packaged 
> currently -- I don't think most users upgrade setuptools that often, so are 
> there any issues to be expected with stoneold setuptools? [Granted, that's 
> not really our problem, but if we know of some issues we could warn the users]
> 
> Cheers,
> Florian
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Django developers" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/f3195fb1-1505-41ce-b34a-0cf147f33e1f%40googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.


-
Donald Stufft
PGP: 0x6E3CBCE93372DCFA // 7C6B 7C5D 5E2B 6356 A926 F04F 6E3C BCE9 3372 DCFA



signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail

Re: Using setuptools to make django-admin.py runnable on Windows (#21340)

[Florian Apolloner]

Oh, one last thing (a few actually):

   - How does 'entry_points' work with wheels? 
   - Do we need an extra wheel for windows just to get the wrappers right? 
   - Can we generate a windows wheel from *nix, or do we need a windows box?

Cheers,
Florian

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 10:24:09 PM UTC+1, Florian Apolloner wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 8:24:49 PM UTC+1, Remram wrote:
>>
>> December 4 12:43, Florian Apolloner
>>>
>>> To my understanding of 
>>> https://github.com/pypa/pip/blob/develop/pip/req.py#L633 pip will use 
>>> setuptools for installing -- so why do you need setuptools in Django itself?
>>>
>> The point here is to use options that distutils doesn't offer, like 
>> entry_points, if they are available.
>>
>
> Ah, I assumed that the workaround you mentioned would be setuptools just 
> wrapping everything in 'scripts' -- didn't know that you'll have to use 
> 'entry_points' then.
>  
>
>> Also (refering to your first post), why is associating stuff with .py 
>>> files a bad idea?
>>>
>> I personally have .py files associated with my text editor. Defaulting 
>> them to the system-wide Python 2.7 might do the correct thing in some 
>> cases...
>>
>
> Oh, that makes sense I guess :) 
>
> Associating .py files with Python is not enough -- only binaries are 
>> searched for in the PATH when typing a path-less command name (.com, .exe, 
>> .bat and a few others).
>>
>  
> Okay, that's just horrible!
>
> Which downsides does using 'entry_points' have for a *nix based system? 
> I'd rather not support disutils and setuptools; this just calls out for 
> pain. My last worry (probably needlessly) is that we might run into issues 
> with one of the hundred setuptools versions out there; all together there 
> is distribute, old setuptools, new setuptools and whatever distris like 
> debian packaged currently -- I don't think most users upgrade setuptools 
> that often, so are there any issues to be expected with stoneold 
> setuptools? [Granted, that's not really our problem, but if we know of some 
> issues we could warn the users]
>
> Cheers,
> Florian
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/f3195fb1-1505-41ce-b34a-0cf147f33e1f%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Re: Using setuptools to make django-admin.py runnable on Windows (#21340)

[Florian Apolloner]

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 8:24:49 PM UTC+1, Remram wrote:
>
> December 4 12:43, Florian Apolloner
>>
>> To my understanding of 
>> https://github.com/pypa/pip/blob/develop/pip/req.py#L633 pip will use 
>> setuptools for installing -- so why do you need setuptools in Django itself?
>>
> The point here is to use options that distutils doesn't offer, like 
> entry_points, if they are available.
>

Ah, I assumed that the workaround you mentioned would be setuptools just 
wrapping everything in 'scripts' -- didn't know that you'll have to use 
'entry_points' then.
 

> Also (refering to your first post), why is associating stuff with .py 
>> files a bad idea?
>>
> I personally have .py files associated with my text editor. Defaulting 
> them to the system-wide Python 2.7 might do the correct thing in some 
> cases...
>

Oh, that makes sense I guess :) 

Associating .py files with Python is not enough -- only binaries are 
> searched for in the PATH when typing a path-less command name (.com, .exe, 
> .bat and a few others).
>
 
Okay, that's just horrible!

Which downsides does using 'entry_points' have for a *nix based system? I'd 
rather not support disutils and setuptools; this just calls out for pain. 
My last worry (probably needlessly) is that we might run into issues with 
one of the hundred setuptools versions out there; all together there is 
distribute, old setuptools, new setuptools and whatever distris like debian 
packaged currently -- I don't think most users upgrade setuptools that 
often, so are there any issues to be expected with stoneold setuptools? 
[Granted, that's not really our problem, but if we know of some issues we 
could warn the users]

Cheers,
Florian

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/6355dc62-3307-4e76-86ef-e81416e2b530%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Re: Using setuptools to make django-admin.py runnable on Windows (#21340)

[Remram]

December 4 12:43, Florian Apolloner
>
> To my understanding of 
> https://github.com/pypa/pip/blob/develop/pip/req.py#L633 pip will use 
> setuptools for installing -- so why do you need setuptools in Django itself?
>

Hi Florian,

The point here is to use options that distutils doesn't offer, like 
entry_points, if they are available.

Also (refering to your first post), why is associating stuff with .py files 
> a bad idea?
>

I personally have .py files associated with my text editor. Defaulting them 
to the system-wide Python 2.7 might do the correct thing in some cases...

Associating .py files with Python is not enough -- only binaries are 
searched for in the PATH when typing a path-less command name (.com, .exe, 
.bat and a few others). Doing this, then installing the wrapper from Python 
3, then changing the PATHEXT, and adding the 'Scripts' directories to the 
PATH might work, but can this really be the recommended way (just for 
Django)?

-- 
Remram

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/e666dbc5-fd4c-42a8-9960-0eebfa86bc54%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Re: Using setuptools to make django-admin.py runnable on Windows (#21340)

[Florian Apolloner]

Hi Remram,

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 4:56:55 PM UTC+1, Remram wrote:
>
> November 24 14:37, Florian Apolloner
>>
>> I am pretty much against setuptools and given that pip is somewhat 
>> becoming the defacto-standard to install stuff
>>
>
> I completely agree to this. And setuptools is an important part of pip... 
> In fact, pip has a strong dependency on setuptools, and automagically 
> translates calls to distutils to setuptools to get stuff to work. [1]
>

To my understanding of 
https://github.com/pypa/pip/blob/develop/pip/req.py#L633 pip will use 
setuptools for installing -- so why do you need setuptools in Django 
itself? Also (refering to your first post), why is associating stuff with 
.py files a bad idea?

Cheers,
Florian

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/9157187e-35ab-4d4c-afb0-936e938d8149%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Re: Using setuptools to make django-admin.py runnable on Windows (#21340)

[Remram]

November 24 14:37, Florian Apolloner
>
> I am pretty much against setuptools and given that pip is somewhat 
> becoming the defacto-standard to install stuff
>

I completely agree to this. And setuptools is an important part of pip... 
In fact, pip has a strong dependency on setuptools, and automagically 
translates calls to distutils to setuptools to get stuff to work. [1]

November 24 14:55, Donald Stufft
>
> The recommended build tool at the moment is setuptools.
>

I agree with this guy! This is very much true outside of Django. See [2] 
for instance...

November 24 18:58, waylan
>
> Of course, on unix based systems we all use virtualenv. There are a few 
> windows virtualenv clones implemented for windows either as batch scripts 
> or powershell scripts. You might want to look into those.


Virtualenv, as in the official tool distributed on virtualenv.org, works 
completely fine on Windows. And of course we use it, in pretty much the 
same way we do on UNIX-like systems, with Django as well as anything else. 
Except that, while other packages work, the django-admin.py tool doesn't.


It seems to me that you are misrepresenting the current state of Python's 
packaging libraries and installation tools, and not only on Windows (see my 
first point). I understand that, for a project as big and important as 
Django, changes in packaging can't be done lightly, especially when they 
only seem to benefit these annoying Windows users; however I really can't 
find sense in the arguments you are presenting here. Of course, you'll do 
as you please, and as you seem to think this discussion has nothing to do 
on django-developers I'll go away (but I'll keep using my patch).

Thanks again for your continued work
Remram

[1] 
http://www.pip-installer.org/en/latest/logic.html#setuptools-pkg-resources
[2] 
https://python-packaging-user-guide.readthedocs.org/en/latest/current.html#installation-tool-recommendations

PS: I apologize for the delayed response as I was travelling

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/c4662d94-50d9-4d3f-91ff-b044745a514e%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Re: How to install Django?

[Daniele Procida]

You'll get answers to your questions on the django-users email list, 
 - the web interface is 
. 

The list you've posted to is django-developers, an email list is for the 
discussion of the development of Django itself.

You might also find helpful the #django IRC channel on irc.freenode.net.

I hope that helps,

Daniele

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/20131204130245.117094488%40smtpauth.cf.ac.uk.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

How to install Django?

[linomarie]

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/13cbaf17-326c-486c-bd07-3196c4d7c8ef%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.