Re: [Dng] About Devuan's audience
You dont have to be a server admin to be concerned about security. I'm a desktop user/developer and while customization is nice, security is paramount. Revelations about the NSA has really made me reconsider system security for my box and linux in general. Obviously, systemd has a fundamental design flaw: it has no design because it's completely ad hoc! I'm certain that if not already, sometime in the future a remotely exploitable bug will be found and will have the terrifying potential of being able to control any networked machine that is running it. So for the sake of the future, I'm working on a seamless security paradigm that will minimize the capabilities programs to minimize the damage in the event that they turn hostile. Don't hold your breath though, I'm still designing it. UNIX/POSIX has impressively robust security mechanisms, we just have to apply them properly. - Gravis On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 8:44 AM, Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr wrote: Hi folks. Considering Devuan is a major lifeboat of free Linux-based OS, I'm anxious about its destiny and therefore trying to figure out who is onboard, I mean the audience. 1) It is clear, by reading this list that part of us are mostly concerned with servers. It is perfectly arguable that people involved in servers' deployment do not want to dedicate time to tweaking a Linux-based desktop. Macintosh is definitely for these guys, first of all because its VM works like a breeze. Forget dual-boot: it's a waste of time. Nate told us the other day that a majority of Debian developpers follow the Mac way; the more I think of it the more sense it makes to me, although it is not my way. Gnome and KDE are aiming to produce a free equivalent of the Mac. OK, they're dropping freedom in the way, but they will produce at least desktops you don't have to pay for. They may eventually pull the carpet under the feet of Apple some day ... or not. 2) I also read that there are people who want to truely own their desktop. Some call them sentimentalists, but they are the people from and for wich free software arised. To summarize, I see two populations in the audience of Devuan, with slightly different motivations (I find myself in both): 1) Servers' admins, who have professionnal concerns about security and productivity and don't necessary care of the desktop, 2) DIY (and FIY ;-) ) addicts who want whole control on their desktop. This all comes from reading you guys during the past month, including Mr FUCK FUCK FUCK :-). But maybe I missed some people. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] About Devuan's audience
Gravis, Should we understand it's based on POSIX permissions and not on ad hoc daemon? I'll keep breezing, but a little faster :-) Didier Le 16/02/2015 16:55, Gravis a écrit : You dont have to be a server admin to be concerned about security. I'm a desktop user/developer and while customization is nice, security is paramount. Revelations about the NSA has really made me reconsider system security for my box and linux in general. Obviously, systemd has a fundamental design flaw: it has no design because it's completely ad hoc! I'm certain that if not already, sometime in the future a remotely exploitable bug will be found and will have the terrifying potential of being able to control any networked machine that is running it. So for the sake of the future, I'm working on a seamless security paradigm that will minimize the capabilities programs to minimize the damage in the event that they turn hostile. Don't hold your breath though, I'm still designing it. UNIX/POSIX has impressively robust security mechanisms, we just have to apply them properly. - Gravis On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 8:44 AM, Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr wrote: Hi folks. Considering Devuan is a major lifeboat of free Linux-based OS, I'm anxious about its destiny and therefore trying to figure out who is onboard, I mean the audience. 1) It is clear, by reading this list that part of us are mostly concerned with servers. It is perfectly arguable that people involved in servers' deployment do not want to dedicate time to tweaking a Linux-based desktop. Macintosh is definitely for these guys, first of all because its VM works like a breeze. Forget dual-boot: it's a waste of time. Nate told us the other day that a majority of Debian developpers follow the Mac way; the more I think of it the more sense it makes to me, although it is not my way. Gnome and KDE are aiming to produce a free equivalent of the Mac. OK, they're dropping freedom in the way, but they will produce at least desktops you don't have to pay for. They may eventually pull the carpet under the feet of Apple some day ... or not. 2) I also read that there are people who want to truely own their desktop. Some call them sentimentalists, but they are the people from and for wich free software arised. To summarize, I see two populations in the audience of Devuan, with slightly different motivations (I find myself in both): 1) Servers' admins, who have professionnal concerns about security and productivity and don't necessary care of the desktop, 2) DIY (and FIY ;-) ) addicts who want whole control on their desktop. This all comes from reading you guys during the past month, including Mr "FUCK FUCK FUCK" :-). But maybe I missed some people. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] About Devuan's audience
Hi Steve and Vince. I agree with you that the desktop must stay as slim as possible, which means not installing the stuff you don't ask for. However I seem to still need more than you. Let's start a list of guis: Xterm, Synaptic, spread-shit, presentations (eg. libre-office-impress) word processor, Lyx, Inkscape, gimp, decent mail client, full featured web browser, Xsane, scribus, openshot, vlc, ristretto, Skype, TeamSpeak, GoogleEarth. I did not list Emacs since I mostly use it inside xterm. For what concerns tweaking: I have never seen an X11 config to work out of the box after the install, before it used udev. And if you remove network-manager, like me, either you spend some time to configure your wpa friends once for all, or you spend time with all the needed CLI apps to start and stop it everytime you need it. Sure, in 1993 there was no wifi and we lived well :-). There is also the OpenDesktop feature which creates automatically a bunch of directories you don't want. It needs some editing to suppress them. Cups does not work properly out of the box; you must give it a list of your print servers if you are roaming, but this is also true for Mac; but I suspect it's easier on Mac. My conclusion is that, if you are looking for productivity on a Linux desktop, you still need to do yourself a few settings. There is one point on which we certainly all agree: do not install by default one million apps the user will never use and even never know they exist, which seems to be the trend of the Gnome and KDE maintaners on Debian. Didier Le 16/02/2015 17:36, Vince Mulhollon a écrit : On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 7:44 AM, Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr wrote: It is perfectly arguable that people involved in servers' deployment do not want to dedicate time to tweaking a Linux-based desktop. The root cause of a lot of the trouble has come from people rationalizing bad decisions, or distracting from bad decisions, as "well, the desktop needs it so we have to do (insert bad idea here)". Combined with co-opting the desktop to mean "really awful hyper obese GUI environments for tablets" or something. Nobody eats their own dogfood of those awful DEs so whatever the corporate is, goes, and it runs a little further off the rails every month, a little less usable, every step. The ideal linux desktop being chromium, emacs, urxvt, and a way to switch between them has been co-opted into a weapon of mass destruction, a product tying scheme to re-implement the whole unix paradigm in a giant software development inner platform anti-pattern. There shouldn't be any "tweaking" for a desktop. This whole bad idea comes from marketing at Microsoft where they figured they could make more license revenue by playing market segmentation games, so intentionally cripple a server kernel and call it a desktop became policy to increase revenue, because server ops can afford to pay more, typically. There is no technical basis behind any of it, although the crippling process does have minor technical curiosity, its an organized crime extortion racket, not a technological characteristic of "desktop-full-ness" with a slider you can tweak. I see no reason why the FOSS community has to play along with those crooks in their own game. There is a tweaking subculture in FOSS that greatly enjoys maxing irrelevant metrics, and as long as they don't screw anything up for everyone else, they are harmless, but sometimes they really freak out about how the whole world has to change and revolve around them so their meaningless non-real world metric can increase 0.1% more than the other guy's meaningless non-real world metric. Sometimes they find a change that is a universal good for everyone, which is cool although rare. Combine the two awful ideas, of co-opting the desktop as a weapon, and what boils down to the tyranny of the marketing droids with a side dish of the tyranny of the minority, and you have the current state of "the linux desktop", which is best avoided. I use something totally different from "the official
Re: [Dng] About Devuan's audience
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 02/16/2015 11:23 AM, Steve Litt wrote: On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 14:44:04 +0100 Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr wrote: Hi folks. Considering Devuan is a major lifeboat of free Linux-based OS, I'm anxious about its destiny and therefore trying to figure out who is onboard, I mean the audience. I have used Unix and its derivatives since Bell Labs Version 7 and the original BSD from the Regents of California at Berkley port. I currently use Linux and have been doing so since V.1.13. Though I do compile my own customized kernel (3.4.105 on wheezy and elsewhere) as well as other application, I no longer desire to do too much of this. All my work stations are Linux. I run a LAN server for home which is currently freeBSD. In summary, my application software days are long past though I do write my own maintenance scripts. However, the last 10 years of work prior to retirement were in threat analysis (physical, logical) and embedded control systems design and coding (process control, weapons control systems). This experience along with many years in hardware abstraction coding for Unix kernels at Bell Labs and my education, gives me a very specific attitude towards code and design. At this juncture, I will either find a version of Linux that follows the Unix philosophy of KISS (keep it simple stupid) or return to my BSD roots. Best of luck with your endeavor. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlTiLU4ACgkQpY/BHpBmP2rALAD/VkzOhV9ea58Q3ASn9nEypgO1 ZYSP896hD+0eErVcQvYA/3vNt1gIkTFf9ioVbEbE3De/3i+E2N5lI8enMAPch9qJ =R5u4 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] About Devuan's audience
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 14:44:04 +0100 Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr wrote: Hi folks. Considering Devuan is a major lifeboat of free Linux-based OS, I'm anxious about its destiny and therefore trying to figure out who is onboard, I mean the audience. 1) It is clear, by reading this list that part of us are mostly concerned with servers. It is perfectly arguable that people involved in servers' deployment do not want to dedicate time to tweaking a Linux-based desktop. Hi Didier, I'll explain my motivations, and perhaps others are in my boat... My Daily Driver Desktop is currently Wheezy, soon to be either Manjaro minus systemd, PC-BSD or Devuan. Yes, I use servers, such as Dovecot, but primarily I create content. In my opinion, GNU/Linux is my OS, and my GUI is just a small component bolted onto my OS with a few standard bolts. I don't hold my GUI responsible for the likes of network connectivity: I have CLI software to do that. IMHO, my GUI is a guest of my OS: My OS tells the GUI my house, my rules, not the other way around. In other words, I can take any old server Linux, install Openbox, dmenu, and some office and authoring apps, and I'm all set. Furthermore, I want to be able to take an adjustable wrench and screwdriver and modify or repair my OS. I don't want to use scarce, complex, expensive specialized tools. I want my OS modular, with thin, well defined interaction between the parts. You know, like Linux ten years ago. So my position is this: I'm mainly a desktop guy, but give me a server OS with access to Openbox, spreadsheet, LaTeX, a good spreadsheet (I like Gnumeric, but who knows how long that will remain uncontaminated), Inkscape, some sort of pixel editor (was Gimp, but, ummm), Python, C, and I'll take care of the rest, without telling my distro to put in all sorts of handyisms for me. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] About Devuan's audience
On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 7:44 AM, Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr wrote: It is perfectly arguable that people involved in servers' deployment do not want to dedicate time to tweaking a Linux-based desktop. The root cause of a lot of the trouble has come from people rationalizing bad decisions, or distracting from bad decisions, as well, the desktop needs it so we have to do (insert bad idea here). Combined with co-opting the desktop to mean really awful hyper obese GUI environments for tablets or something. Nobody eats their own dogfood of those awful DEs so whatever the corporate is, goes, and it runs a little further off the rails every month, a little less usable, every step. The ideal linux desktop being chromium, emacs, urxvt, and a way to switch between them has been co-opted into a weapon of mass destruction, a product tying scheme to re-implement the whole unix paradigm in a giant software development inner platform anti-pattern. There shouldn't be any tweaking for a desktop. This whole bad idea comes from marketing at Microsoft where they figured they could make more license revenue by playing market segmentation games, so intentionally cripple a server kernel and call it a desktop became policy to increase revenue, because server ops can afford to pay more, typically. There is no technical basis behind any of it, although the crippling process does have minor technical curiosity, its an organized crime extortion racket, not a technological characteristic of desktop-full-ness with a slider you can tweak. I see no reason why the FOSS community has to play along with those crooks in their own game. There is a tweaking subculture in FOSS that greatly enjoys maxing irrelevant metrics, and as long as they don't screw anything up for everyone else, they are harmless, but sometimes they really freak out about how the whole world has to change and revolve around them so their meaningless non-real world metric can increase 0.1% more than the other guy's meaningless non-real world metric. Sometimes they find a change that is a universal good for everyone, which is cool although rare. Combine the two awful ideas, of co-opting the desktop as a weapon, and what boils down to the tyranny of the marketing droids with a side dish of the tyranny of the minority, and you have the current state of the linux desktop, which is best avoided. I use something totally different from the official trademarked linux desktop which is a desktop that happens to run linux. All you need do for us desktop users is not intentionally cripple the system by active efforts to stop us. As long as X and xdm and xmonad and urxvt will run, I'll be fine, no worse off than I was in '93 when I fired up my first linux desktop (A SLS install off a local BBS, without X until I got a newer VGA video card, as I recall). Really what the world needs is a SDL graphics layer implementation of chromium. Given a decent unicode console font for emacs, I'm pretty happy. Apparently a browser called netsurf works pretty well in a console window. I could do entirely without X and be pretty happy if I have a workable web browser. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] About Devuan's audience
Should we understand it's based on POSIX permissions and not on ad hoc daemon? yes. however, there is currently a problem with flooding the system with hundreds of new users and groups. i'm investigating the possibility of using extended file attributes. --Gravis On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 11:20 AM, Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr wrote: Gravis, Should we understand it's based on POSIX permissions and not on ad hoc daemon? I'll keep breezing, but a little faster :-) Didier Le 16/02/2015 16:55, Gravis a écrit : You dont have to be a server admin to be concerned about security. I'm a desktop user/developer and while customization is nice, security is paramount. Revelations about the NSA has really made me reconsider system security for my box and linux in general. Obviously, systemd has a fundamental design flaw: it has no design because it's completely ad hoc! I'm certain that if not already, sometime in the future a remotely exploitable bug will be found and will have the terrifying potential of being able to control any networked machine that is running it. So for the sake of the future, I'm working on a seamless security paradigm that will minimize the capabilities programs to minimize the damage in the event that they turn hostile. Don't hold your breath though, I'm still designing it. UNIX/POSIX has impressively robust security mechanisms, we just have to apply them properly. - Gravis On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 8:44 AM, Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr wrote: Hi folks. Considering Devuan is a major lifeboat of free Linux-based OS, I'm anxious about its destiny and therefore trying to figure out who is onboard, I mean the audience. 1) It is clear, by reading this list that part of us are mostly concerned with servers. It is perfectly arguable that people involved in servers' deployment do not want to dedicate time to tweaking a Linux-based desktop. Macintosh is definitely for these guys, first of all because its VM works like a breeze. Forget dual-boot: it's a waste of time. Nate told us the other day that a majority of Debian developpers follow the Mac way; the more I think of it the more sense it makes to me, although it is not my way. Gnome and KDE are aiming to produce a free equivalent of the Mac. OK, they're dropping freedom in the way, but they will produce at least desktops you don't have to pay for. They may eventually pull the carpet under the feet of Apple some day ... or not. 2) I also read that there are people who want to truely own their desktop. Some call them sentimentalists, but they are the people from and for wich free software arised. To summarize, I see two populations in the audience of Devuan, with slightly different motivations (I find myself in both): 1) Servers' admins, who have professionnal concerns about security and productivity and don't necessary care of the desktop, 2) DIY (and FIY ;-) ) addicts who want whole control on their desktop. This all comes from reading you guys during the past month, including Mr FUCK FUCK FUCK :-). But maybe I missed some people. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list...@lists.dyne.orghttps://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] About Devuan's audience
- Original Message - From: Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr Considering Devuan is a major lifeboat of free Linux-based OS, I'm anxious about its destiny and therefore trying to figure out who is onboard, I mean the audience. For me, the line between desktop and server is very blurred. I use Debian in a home environment for myself and family members. I am responsible for the maintenance of 11 Debian machines. LXDE is the desktop of choice for most, since Gnome 3 was introduced on Wheezy and the long-term existence of Gnome Classic (or Gnome Fallback) is questionable. Myself, I use Fluxbox. Some of my machines are CLI only. Security is a top priority. I also appreciate the large number of packages that Debian provides. I followed the systemd debates carefully on debian-user and debian-devel. I now am of the opinion that a large number of Debian developers are not paranoid enough to be my OS provider. High-value software to me, in no particular order, includes: Libreoffice Firefox LXDE [2] Fluxbox Openbox Ardour Jack easytag flac pcmanfm xterm xcalc VLC mplayer MythTV (from deb-multimedia.org) Handbrake (from deb-multimedia.org) ssh nfs ldap iptables music player [1] 1: I like Rhythmbox, but the interface is getting worse and the transcode feature seems finicky. I have been mostly using Guayadeque recently. I have need for both a basic player, and for something to transcode flac files to ogg vorbis or mp3 when music is copied to a portable player or usb stick. On Jessie without systemd, it can no longer detect removable media, so its days on my system may be numbered. See my so-far unanswered bug report: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=774871 2: Personally, I don't care if Devuan includes Gnome or not. I think Gnome is so committed to 1) not being optimized for desktops and 2) using systemd, that it would be fair to simply write it off as unusable in Devuan. As long as I have alternatives, I am fine with that. Their vision for their product does not impress me. I think the only reason they have survived the past several years is because they have been the default on so many distros for so long. But today I think there are better choices for default desktop. LXDE and XFCE seem good. But I honestly think most people would be well-served with something basic like Fluxbox or Openbox with a customized startup script which runs wicd, and maybe adding something like fbpanel. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] About Devuan's audience
On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 06:22:00PM +, Alberto Zuin - Liste wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 IMHO, an user who wants a very complete easy/ready to use desktop probably will go to Mac OS or to a distro specialized to be a desktop (Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora, etc.). I'd like a complete, easy-to-use desktop. But that doesn't mean every feature under the sun. It means just the packages I use, because every other package gets in my way by making the menus long. What I do want is to be able to install packages easily. aptitude does that just fine, once I have identified the package I want. What's needed on top of that is an index of available packages, which identifies them not by name (which is often meaningless), but by function and features. But the huge number of menu items I have on my xfce desktop on Debian testing right now is, well, just too much. And I think that even so, there's too much stuff on the screen, and too many desktop features that I'm not even aware of. Just one menu with the tools I choose to have is enough. Long ago I used a Unix workstation with X. Even the window manager ran on a different computer. And my applications ran elsewhare, too. It started up an xterm, and rest was up to me. I was happy with that. -- hendrik The most part of Devaun installation will be server, because avoiding systemd on it, is not only a philosophical purpose. The people who will use Devaun as desktop, will be power user so the only important thing is to let the user choose what packages wants to install and not create a complete DE as default at the moment of the installation (like Ubuntu/Mind/Fedora does). Ciao, Alberto P.S. I'm one of the firsts: I manage about 150 debian server installation without gui, but my two desktops are a MacBook Air with Mac OS, and an Arch Linux workstation with Gnome (and systemd, networkmanager, pulseaudio and all these horrible things). Franco, are you happy? ;-) Il 16/02/2015 1:44 pm, Didier Kryn ha scritto: Hi folks. Considering Devuan is a major lifeboat of free Linux-based OS, I'm anxious about its destiny and therefore trying to figure out who is onboard, I mean the audience. 1) It is clear, by reading this list that part of us are mostly concerned with servers. It is perfectly arguable that people involved in servers' deployment do not want to dedicate time to tweaking a Linux-based desktop. Macintosh is definitely for these guys, first of all because its VM works like a breeze. Forget dual-boot: it's a waste of time. Nate told us the other day that a majority of Debian developpers follow the Mac way; the more I think of it the more sense it makes to me, although it is not my way. Gnome and KDE are aiming to produce a free equivalent of the Mac. OK, they're dropping freedom in the way, but they will produce at least desktops you don't have to pay for. They may eventually pull the carpet under the feet of Apple some day ... or not. 2) I also read that there are people who want to truely own their desktop. Some call them sentimentalists, but they are the people from and for wich free software arised. To summarize, I see two populations in the audience of Devuan, with slightly different motivations (I find myself in both): 1) Servers' admins, who have professionnal concerns about security and productivity and don't necessary care of the desktop, 2) DIY (and FIY ;-) ) addicts who want whole control on their desktop. This all comes from reading you guys during the past month, including Mr FUCK FUCK FUCK :-). But maybe I missed some people. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJU4jVIAAoJEAzproFXfBTIaSgP/0WwWt/BfWMTXkO89rfYdGNE ZbCELma6UCd9PSLzBXJnc3kVLZOmxi03IyU1SlqnEZwU9NSP+TpXvkOVTrKBMedI z9TdXrRg+mZYHGL8Bri5JlY4VI+YYlZakwkIMFZBufjit7iqVaHUzn1GjrjHE2Ey Uuww4nEEmm648NVU9lxdVWMqcdoWkmResrG+YBmGJG30x9Bb7mIxWS7bUFEP9SlA R3LWlpwXSPVG37buMwPRFSVW8Tu5R58zWa2b2X48UyqkPAFvmDowP95jrIMWJflc wvupWqXyY7ucFGwt/SMQ+Jm8ubPH/hlZnP4MVTwTweEVKPwYaZUeZn/BzF1FStQl PtkBoi86CtialbvJHxTE8e/MtnGLso81/4DVlUmgE9elcCRF2RPl63zCAcqy1bdr yEw/a+mJduRaFPL3XpwIjF2Cl6At9Myw88cJzOnI5UfU4WVy2K4fWWbwXXBflFlw OaXHjRFflUt1E0+WsfbY8QeN5f4bPVD0d9BWSw25jcCNFgA1nvJDUxErPuneGsLx XuzOnOTGfqxZTrEC8yABAlW1hRN3J2PNwyPLRcmiVe+BT7ugdJY+hk7/uPab1kJL XaCZoo8wAVJMZ8IcQjEzbmhWvGBo/s4bEE7n8er6HbhuN9kxLJAXWFooFyCHL0Ne FrqxEqWLip2q0gHfPFlM =aPWT -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org
Re: [Dng] recommendation for consideration: keep as close to debian as possible
hellekin hellekin at dyne.org writes: The version you wrote, that I reported as Issue #8, wants to tell a different story than what has been told so far. The project description clearly states that: + *removing mandatory dependencies on systemd* is the primary goal + in order to reach that goal *Devuan will pin some packages on top of Debian repositories* + once that goal is reached, and users have a choice, then Devuan will consider other changes. ok, well... how about this: if there are other changes to be considered, how about doing them - again - as a separate additional repository? (preferably an independent one i.e. independent of using the devuan-systemd one). so that anyone coming to devuan could go hmm, i really want to keep debian with systemd because i like it *but*, if you were to hard-code the additional changes to require devuan systemd-removed packages, they might very well go hmm, i really want to use these extra non-systemd-related packages that devuan did, but sadly i cannot do so because my machines require systemd. what you *don't* want to happen is to fall into exactly the same trap of forcing people into all-or-nothing decisions. we've had enough of that, and it would be respectful to them to give them a proper choice, and to show other distros (including debian) that respecting people's right to choose is something that attracts users. sorry i had to cut everything else, this is starting to take up significant amounts of my time. l. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] pre-alpha-valentine on qemu
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 19:41:52 +0100 Svante Signell svante.sign...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, 2015-02-15 at 02:52 +, KatolaZ wrote: Hi guys, a few simple steps to have Devuan-pre-alpha-valentine installed and running on qemu: 0)# wget http://mirror.debianfork.org/devuan-jessie-i386-xfce-prealpha-valentine.iso; 1)$ apt-get install qemu-kvm 2)$ qemu-img create devuan_disk 5G (creates a 5G qemu disk image for devuan) 3)$ qemu-system-x86_64 -cdrom devuan-jessie-i386-xfce-prealpha-valentine.iso -hda devuan_disk -boot d -net nic -net user -m 256 -localtime (installs Devuan on the qemu disk image) 4)$ qemu-system-x86_64 -hda devuan_disk -boot c -net nic -net user -m 256 -localtime (boots the system) Just two words: IT WORKS :) Hi, it is a little slow without hardware acceleration: -enable-kvm is the solution here if you have recent Intel/AMD CPUs. Oh, *that's* why it was so slow. Cool, let me try it again, using -enable-kvm. Thank you Svante! SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] About Devuan's audience
On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 02:44:04PM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: 1) It is clear, by reading this list that part of us are mostly concerned with servers. 2) I also read that there are people who want to truely own their desktop. Some call them sentimentalists, but they are the people from and for wich free software arised. To summarize, I see two populations in the audience of Devuan, with slightly different motivations (I find myself in both): 1) Servers' admins, who have professionnal concerns about security and productivity and don't necessary care of the desktop, 2) DIY (and FIY ;-) ) addicts who want whole control on their desktop. I suppose I fit in #2; I've used Linux since 2006, which is by now over a third of my life, with my first Linux system being a secondhand Thinkpad running Ubuntu 6.06 Dapper Drake. Getting that to work nicely in 64 megabytes of RAM took a bit of work, but it paid off: it ran more nicely than the DEs I've tried on my current netbook. Since that point, I've built an LFS-ish system with an alternate libc. I can knock out a sysv-style init script (apart from the LSB headers) in a matter of minutes, without looking at the documentation. Yes, I know C well enough to write smallish tools, and if I wanted to I could probably get an overview of how systemd works internally-- after spending several weeks reading through it. ;) But shell scripts can be written well, and writing a shell script to solve a problem beats writing a custom config to handle how one tool does it, and then not being able to apply that to another platform... or an older version of the same distro. And so I would rather use something that *expects* shell scripts than something that tolerates them for backwards compatability. And I'm certainly not interested in using a custom config because RedHat's employees can't understand how to write fast shell scripts. Why should I expect them to write efficient and safe C if they can't manage efficient and safe sh? The price of reliability is the pursuit of the utmost simplicity. Thanks, Isaac Dunham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Important changes in Linux 3.20 (4.0?)
On February 15, 2015 at 2:39 PM Hendrik Boom hend...@topoi.pooq.com wrote: On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 12:50:53PM -0500, Jude Nelson wrote: IVI == In-Vehicle Infotainment. The stuff that runs your new car's UI. [stuff omitted] No one pushing this seems to be really concerned with the security, or the safety of the user interfaces. -- hendrik “Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.” ― Edmund Burke Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] pre-alpha-valentine on qemu
* On 2015 16 Feb 12:40 -0600, Svante Signell wrote: Hi, it is a little slow without hardware acceleration: -enable-kvm is the solution here if you have recent Intel/AMD CPUs. Thanks for the tip. I had installed the package but was ignorant of its use (yes, I need to RTFM more often ;-). It is very speedy now. What is a good way to get packages into the VM as I have only installed the base system and I miss Midnight Commander greatly. Very nice to see, Devuan GNU/Linux 1 devuan tty1 - Nate -- The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true. Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] recommendation for consideration: keep as close to debian as possible
On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 11:01:36PM +, Luke Leighton wrote: [cut] what you *don't* want to happen is to fall into exactly the same trap of forcing people into all-or-nothing decisions. we've had enough of that, and it would be respectful to them to give them a proper choice, and to show other distros (including debian) that respecting people's right to choose is something that attracts users. I see your point, but you will agree that it will be almost impossible to keep two versions of the same (group of) packages (one with and one without systemd support), and also useless, since the version with systemd will be altready shipped by Debian I am sorry but I don't understand the necessity to be 100% compatible with Debian at all costs. Again, this will probably be almost natural for the first release, since Devuan developers are focusing on making the fewest necessary changes, but I am convinced that it will soon become unpractical if not impossible, at least if alternatives to udev and dbus will be included in Devuan and other packages will depend on them. IMHO, it's always a bad habit to use packges from different distros, especially in production environments, and mixing Debian and Devuan is not an exception (as it is not mixing Ubuntu with Debian...) It will be hard for all of us to leave Debian, believe me, but again revolutions are not cheap... HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] recommendation for consideration: keep as close to debian as possible
KatolaZ katolaz at freaknet.org writes: On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 11:01:36PM +, Luke Leighton wrote: [cut] what you *don't* want to happen is to fall into exactly the same trap of forcing people into all-or-nothing decisions. we've had enough of that, and it would be respectful to them to give them a proper choice, and to show other distros (including debian) that respecting people's right to choose is something that attracts users. I see your point, but you will agree that it will be almost impossible to keep two versions of the same (group of) packages (one with and one without systemd support), no, because not only do i consider it to be reasonably easy to do, but also because it's exactly what the devuan team is planning to do and is well on the way to already achieving :) and also useless, since the version with systemd will be altready shipped by Debian ... that's their problem, and one that is well on the way to being fixed as the first priority of devuan's milestones. by providing altered packages that mask all and any packages in debian that include or depend on systemd, the fact that debian has any mention of systemd becomes completely irrelevant. that's what the pinning and the package renaming is all about. isaac showed how it's done, a couple of days ago. I am sorry but I don't understand the necessity to be 100% compatible with Debian at all costs. that's because you misunderstand the point i am endeavouring to get across. you believe i have said be 100% compatible at all costs. i did not. i said, if you try to go too far, you will overwhelm the team with the amount of work that will need to be done. i *recommended* therefore that you keep the differences to an absolute minimum. *not* be 100% compatible at any cost. is that now clear? Again, this will probably be almost natural for the first release, since Devuan developers are focusing on making the fewest necessary changes, but I am convinced that it will soon become unpractical if not impossible, at least if alternatives to udev and dbus will be included in Devuan and other packages will depend on them. ah, that's where i have confidence that you, as a team, will be very very clever, think this through and come up with something that achieves exactly and precisely that :) and i think, also, if you do a full and careful audit, you'll find that there are only a few strategic packages that you need to cut off at the knees, and beyond that subset of packages the impact will be zero. also, i'm going to have a word with the systemd team. i'm going to advocate to them that they make libsystemd0 be a dynamically-loaded runtime library, and to provide demonstrations (starting with pulseaudio) where applications check at *runtime* if libsystemd0 is available, rather than hard-code the functionality directly in. if they don't listen, i'll do it myself. argh. :) l. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] recommendation for consideration: keep as close to debian as possible
On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 11:31:39PM +, Luke Leighton wrote: Again, this will probably be almost natural for the first release, since Devuan developers are focusing on making the fewest necessary changes, but I am convinced that it will soon become unpractical if not impossible, at least if alternatives to udev and dbus will be included in Devuan and other packages will depend on them. ah, that's where i have confidence that you, as a team, will be very very clever, think this through and come up with something that achieves exactly and precisely that :) Unfortunately I'm not actively involved in the development of Devuan :) I am just wandering around in this ML... and i think, also, if you do a full and careful audit, you'll find that there are only a few strategic packages that you need to cut off at the knees, and beyond that subset of packages the impact will be zero. I know that you are partially right, right now. I hope that this will be true in two years as well, but I suspect this will not be the case... also, i'm going to have a word with the systemd team. i'm going to advocate to them that they make libsystemd0 be a dynamically-loaded runtime library, and to provide demonstrations (starting with pulseaudio) where applications check at *runtime* if libsystemd0 is available, rather than hard-code the functionality directly in. if they don't listen, i'll do it myself. argh. :) Good luck then :) They have not listened an entire community telling them that all this crap was not necessary, and they have nevertheless managd to push it in 95% of the distributions in less than two years, under the motto either you understand that what I propose is *right* or you are just a moron HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] About Devuan's audience
On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 06:41:06PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 10:36:19 -0600 Vince Mulhollon vi...@mulhollon.com wrote: There shouldn't be any tweaking for a desktop. This whole bad idea comes from marketing at Microsoft Whoaaa, wait a minute. Another word for tweaking is choice, kind of like the reason we revolted and overthrew Debian. I don't think he was talking about choosing and adjusting the desktop to suit you. I think he was talking about changing the underlying infrastructure so it inexorably leads the way to a desktop, making other desktops difficult, and making traaditional nondesktop awkward. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] About Devuan's audience
On Mon, 16 Feb 2015 10:36:19 -0600 Vince Mulhollon vi...@mulhollon.com wrote: There shouldn't be any tweaking for a desktop. This whole bad idea comes from marketing at Microsoft Whoaaa, wait a minute. Another word for tweaking is choice, kind of like the reason we revolted and overthrew Debian. On a more practical plane, I use and love Openbox. But fact is, as it comes from the factory, Openbox sucks. Few hotkeys, wrong mouse movements, no margin. As it comes from the factory, it's a continual stream of frustrating stumbling blocks. Not to worry. I installed dmenu for lightning fast program instantiation. I changed a bunch of hotkeys and added a lot of hotkeys to accommodate a touch-typist. I have an ultra-easy (for me) key combo to run dmenu. I put a 6px margin on the left side of the screen so there's always a part of the desktop I can click for root menu or list of open windows. My hotkey for dmenu is Ctrl+Shift+semicolon. I bet most of you would hate that. Perhaps you'd prefer it be a simple function key. Fortunately, you can tweak Openbox to make the hotkey the function key of your choice. If I didn't want to tweak, I'd be using Windows, and let Microsoft tell me how to organize my workflow and work habits. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] About Devuan's audience
On February 16, 2015 at 10:55 AM Gravis rin...@adaptivetime.com wrote: You dont have to be a server admin to be concerned about security. I'm a desktop user/developer and while customization is nice, security is paramount. Revelations about the NSA has really made me reconsider system security for my box and linux in general. Obviously, systemd has a fundamental design flaw: it has no design because it's completely ad hoc! I'm certain that if not already, sometime in the future a remotely exploitable bug will be found and will have the terrifying potential of being able to control any networked machine that is running it. Perhaps computer scientists should read spy novels. The best security seems to rely on compartmentalization. No individual cell (service, feature) depends on how the others work except at the direct interface, so the system itself resists damage and systematic attack. Well, don't read too much literally into this except to note that we all know that systemd subverts this. It's not just the Unix way, it's the reliability way. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Towards systemd-free packages
On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 10:30:32AM +, Jaromil wrote: While I look forward to vdev's development, I think we should change as little as possible here, despite the fact we will keep some systemd code around for a little longer (but no systemd daemon running anyway). Oh, I was not suggesting actually forcing libsysdev into Devuan right now. Just wanted to help with an mdev setup. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] pre alpha valentine (secret love declaration)
On Sat, 2015-02-14 at 21:36 +, Jaromil wrote: re all, Here is a pre-alpha sneak preview of Devuan at the current state of affairs. It is my valentine to Franco: despite we probably never met in person, I love him. He is really dedicated to this project and putting hard work in it. I also fell in love with another VUA, whose name I won't tell, but he is the one hosting the gitlab, running very well. Thanks a lot for your efforts, I'm running it in quemu-kvm currently. :) sources are those of Debian 8 RC1 jessie plus the mods here: https://git.devuan.org/groups/packages-base and packed with the SDK https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-sdk Seems like you are running the Debian Installer with systemd-sysv and later on install sysvinit-core etc. This can be fixed with a pre-seed file, maybe non-trivial to fix. Any interest in having this option? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] recommendation for consideration: keep as close to debian as possible
On February 16, 2015 at 5:19 PM Nuno Magalhães nunomagalh...@eu.ipp.pt wrote: On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 10:24 AM, Jaromil jaro...@dyne.org wrote: dear Nuno, On Sun, 15 Feb 2015, Nuno Magalhães wrote: Assuming i don't get moderated out (unlike the resident troll), the reason why your emails are arriving delayed is due to your email you subscribed, I love using email addresses with + in then when subscribing to stuff to see if they consider the email address invalid. Then i forgot i had used it :( My bad. A popular *nix convention is that abc+...@example.com is delivered to a...@example.com where the +xyz is a hint of no significance at all to the mail delivery agent. Some MDAs do this, some don't. I hadn't considered this previously, but the address matching in a list server probably can't understand this when making such a filter decision without some external guidance (RFC/config-etc). Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] pre-alpha-valentine on qemu
On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 8:13 PM, Nate Bargmann n...@n0nb.us wrote: * On 2015 16 Feb 12:40 -0600, Svante Signell wrote: Hi, it is a little slow without hardware acceleration: -enable-kvm is the solution here if you have recent Intel/AMD CPUs. Thanks for the tip. I had installed the package but was ignorant of its use (yes, I need to RTFM more often ;-). It is very speedy now. What is a good way to get packages into the VM as I have only installed the base system and I miss Midnight Commander greatly. Very nice to see, Devuan GNU/Linux 1 devuan tty1 - Nate -- The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true. Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/ https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng Looks very good. Finally realized that without kvm was going to see much with qemu on my AA1 netbook, copied the iso onto my Easy2Boot USB and booted andinstalled on a spare partition. Every thing looked great, until it said, Not gonna connect no BCM4312 unless you have the code handy; which I didn't. Sure hope you can include drivers for older Broadcom stuff which is on lots of netbooks. Hopefully I'll be home next weekend and have access to a wired connection. Congratulations on the Valentine version. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Important changes in Linux 3.20 (4.0?)
On February 16, 2015 at 8:25 PM Hendrik Boom hend...@topoi.pooq.com wrote: On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 07:34:57PM -0500, Peter Olson wrote: “Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.” ― Edmund Burke Peter Olson I think the original quote was by Santayana: George Santayana. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. George Santayana (16 December 1863 in Madrid, Spain – 26 September 1952 in Rome, Italy) was a philosopher, essayist, poet and novelist. -- hendri I'll see your January 12, 1729 (Burke, his birthday) against your 16 December 1863 (Santanayo) and claim that this is a timeless issue. It has always been this way. But the consequences of getting it wrong have increased. Peter Olson P.S.: I picked Edmund Burke because he was the oldest guy I found. Many, many others say the same thing. Newton said he stood on shoulders of giants. Let's not stand on their ankles. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] recommendation for consideration: keep as close to debian as possible
Assuming i don't get moderated out (unlike the resident troll), On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 9:59 PM, Luke Leighton l...@lkcl.net wrote: 1) your debian system will not be screwed up or compromised by using devuan. you will also not lose any functionality or packages. 2) we understand the difficulty of maintaining an entire distro. we implicitly understand that we will not get to 1,000 maintainers in the immediate future, so we are being realistic and will not be doing a complete fork. it's too much effort for us, and we recognise that you probably wouldn't trust us (i.e. wouldn't even want to *try* upgrading to devuan) if we created one. 3) we're restricting the scope of what we're doing to a few key strategic packages, and we're going to make it easy for you to remove systemd. that's our core focus. This seems reasonable, as does keeping compatibility. Devuan's is a small team, so taking one pondered step at a time is crucial. Focusing on removing systemd dependencies as a first step seems reasonable and, with more and more packages depending on systemd, challenging too. I wouldn't aim at releasing a behemoth DE like GNOME on the first Devuan release. KISS please, no GUI if necessary, focus on a plugable infrastructure. It makes sense to keep compatibility with Debian *and* with upstream. Someone mentioned it already and i wouldn't be surprised if Debian becomes poetterized and adds systemd dependencies to packages that don't have them from upstream. For now, it seems like a new repo on sources.list is the way to go (similar to debian-multimedia). In the future, maybe it'll become a distro. My 2c Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
On 15 February 2015 17:49:54 GMT+00:00, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton l...@lkcl.net wrote: http://slashdot.org/submission/4203115/removing-libsystemd0-from-a-live-running-debian-system if anyone would like to help get the word out, as a way to actively engage more developers and end-users to give them their right to choose what software to run, please do consider hitting the + button on the above submission. done! also fine you keep threads about this documentation and experiments on this list we may all learn more about it ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] recommendation for consideration: keep as close to debian as possible
dear Nuno, On Sun, 15 Feb 2015, Nuno Magalhães wrote: Assuming i don't get moderated out (unlike the resident troll), the reason why your emails are arriving delayed is due to your email configuration: your Sender header address may not be the same address you subscribed, or so. sorry I didn't checked in detail, just approving them whenever I look at the queue. If you fix that, they will get through immediately. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
