Re: [DNG] Has anybody else experienced Raspberry Pi breakage ?
On 17/05/2020 20:26, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: > Anno domini 2020 Sun, 17 May 13:20:13 +0100 > g4sra via Dng scripsit: >> I have an old Rpi 2B that will boot its original Raspbian fine but panics >> 'killing init' on Devuan. >> Has anybody else experienced this ? >> >> The only difference I can discern is that the Devuan repository executables >> (init) are compiled as PIE. >> Any suggestions to further the diagnosis of this issue gratefully received. > > I have devuan running o a A+. I did not see this here. Maybe your SD card is > broken? Its not the SD, it boots fine in a Pi3. There is no problem with the kernel, DT,s, config.txt, cmdline.txt (or the PSU). Everything is hunky dory until /sbin/init is loaded by the kernel. This is possibly an ARMv6 ~ ARMv7 BCM toolchain issue. Devuans init differs from Raspbians SystemD... PIE and the GLIBC so Devuan must have used a different toolchain to Raspbian. I need pointers what\where to poke next... > > Nik > >> ___ >> Dng mailing list >> Dng@lists.dyne.org >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng >> > > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Has anybody else experienced Raspberry Pi breakage ?
Anno domini 2020 Sun, 17 May 13:20:13 +0100 g4sra via Dng scripsit: > I have an old Rpi 2B that will boot its original Raspbian fine but panics > 'killing init' on Devuan. > Has anybody else experienced this ? > > The only difference I can discern is that the Devuan repository executables > (init) are compiled as PIE. > Any suggestions to further the diagnosis of this issue gratefully received. I have devuan running o a A+. I did not see this here. Maybe your SD card is broken? Nik > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Felker Init: was without-systemd.org not working
On Sun, 17 May 2020 13:46:28 +0200 Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 16/05/2020 à 11:30, Steve Litt a écrit : > > On Fri, 15 May 2020 14:44:06 -1000 > > Joel Roth via Dng wrote: > > > > > >> Reminds me to revisit https://ewontfix.com/14/ > >> for Felker's Broken by Design article on systemd. > > That web page changed my life. When I saw, on that page, how simple > > PID1 could really be, that was when I really started to despise > > systemd. > I just re-read this nice document, thanks for reminding it. > > It is very intresting because it immediately raises a question: > what if pid2 (called rc here) crashes? It isn't respawned by pid1. Your preceding paragraph is *precisely* the strongest stated benefit of s6 over runit: s6 supervises its equivalent to the rc file, whereas runit pretty much conforms to Felker's model. If one is worried about the rc file crashing, one should use s6. I've been using runit almost 5 years, and I don't remember a case of the rc file crashing. Keep in mind that the rc file can fork off everything it needs to fork off, doublefork the things it wants parented by PID1, and then when the rc file's work is done, it simply exits. > > rc, as the supervisor of all other daemons, is essential to > maintain the state of the system. I can think of four options when it > crashes: > > 1) respawn it, but then, why wouldn't it crash again immediately? > > 2) reboot, but this may have the same effect as opton 1 if the cause > of the crash persists. > > 3) stop the system, but why wouldn't it produce the same effect as > the two options above at next boot. > > 4) do nothing and let the admin investigate. But at least there > should be a possibility for the admin to log in on the console, which > means spawning and re-spawning getty or sulogin. > > Therefore, as it has been said already, I'm for keeping the > current sysv-init (but not sysv-rc) as is, That's exactly how I feel. It's just so easy to use sysv PID1 with a different supervisor. I think also it's necessary to keep some of the sysvinit early boot stuff. But the daemons would all be easier to do with a separate process supervisor. > instead of reducing it to > the minimalistic example of Rich Felker, despite my respect and > admiration for him. Even Rich Felker admitted a practical init would need to be more complicated than his 16 line PID1. SteveT Steve Litt May 2020 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Has anybody else experienced Raspberry Pi breakage ?
On Sun, 17 May 2020 13:20:13 +0100 g4sra via Dng wrote: > I have an old Rpi 2B that will boot its original Raspbian fine but > panics 'killing init' on Devuan. Has anybody else experienced this ? > > The only difference I can discern is that the Devuan repository > executables (init) are compiled as PIE. Any suggestions to further > the diagnosis of this issue gratefully received. > ___ Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng I ran Devuan on the pi for a while. It kept breaking because of the insane mount options for the root partition on the sd card that disables all filesystem safety. I'd suggest running debsums on the pi and seeing if disk corruptions have occurred. Alternatively I have switched to using NetBSD 9 on my pis and it's been a much more stable, reliable, and predictable experience. -- _ / Matz's Law: \ | | | A conclusion is the place where you got | \ tired of thinking. / - \ \ /\ /\ //\\_//\\ \_ _// / / * * \/^^^] \_\O/_/[ ] / \_[ / \ \_ / / [ [ / \/ _/ _[ [ \ /_/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Felker Init: was without-systemd.org not working
On Sat, 16 May 2020 22:04:51 +0100 tux...@sapo.pt wrote: > Hello, > > Citando Steve Litt : > > > It's such a shame. Runit and s6 were both there, waiting to be > > picked up and used. Both were 10 times easier than sysvinit. But > > n. > > All init systems that want to be taken seriously, need to accept also > the system language.. > > As I understand, and was also recognized by s6 creator at devuan > conference, s6 *cannot* run a script made in shell script( the > systems language.. ) Yes it can. I've created s6 run scripts programmed in /bin/sh. Laurent Bercot *discourages* using /bin/sh in favor of the execline language (http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/execline.htm), but s6 run scripts can be created in almost any language, including /bin/sh. > > Maybe you think at it like been a superfluous thing, Not at all: I'd consider it almost a showstopper. Fortunately, s6 enables you to program run scripts (and finish scripts) in /bin/sh. SteveT Steve Litt May 2020 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Device naming: was Felker Init: was without-systemd.org not working
On Sat, 16 May 2020 13:10:23 -0700 Rick Moen via Dng wrote: > Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > > > If you're referring to the ethernet device being eno1 or > > enWhichUSB22 instead of eth0, or wxbd3 or wl21Poettering423 instead > > of wlan0, I prefer the new way. Here's why: > > No, that's not what I meant (and network interfaces don't have device > node files, being unique and peculiar, that way). > > I meant multiple subtrees of device node files classified in lots > of different and overlapping ways, by-uuid, and on and on. What's wrong with by-id, by-label, by-partlabel, by-partuuid, and by-uuid? At age 11, I spent a lot of time DXing the AM broadcast band (trying to receive and identify radio stations on the AM dial 540khz to 1700khz). When I received and identified a station, I'd create three index cards to put in three metal card files. One file was sorted on call letters, one on frequency, and one on location of the station. That way I could find all stations I'd received on 550AM, all stations I'd received from LA (I lived in Chicago), or where station KDKA was from. Now, every relational database enables you to look up rows by searching any column, and indexes can be created to make such lookups efficient for a given column. I find it handy to look up disks by label, uuid or device name. I don't see a major disadvantage. SteveT Steve Litt May 2020 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Device naming: was Felker Init: was without-systemd.org not working
Le 16/05/2020 à 22:10, Rick Moen via Dng a écrit : Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): If you're referring to the ethernet device being eno1 or enWhichUSB22 instead of eth0, or wxbd3 or wl21Poettering423 instead of wlan0, I prefer the new way. Here's why: No, that's not what I meant (and network interfaces don't have device node files, being unique and peculiar, that way). I meant multiple subtrees of device node files classified in lots of different and overlapping ways, by-uuid, and on and on. The subdirs of /dev/disk contain symlinks produced by udev/eudev/vdev and possibly mdev, in other words the "hotplugger" For an application to obtain labels and uuids of disks and partitions, there are three ways: 1) interface with libudev, which is undocumented, convoluted and probably perpetually evolving, not being designed to be a stable API for the public, but rather a private tool for a group of developpers. 2) spawn processes to invoke /sbin/blkid or /bin/lsblk 3) browse and/or watch the subdirs of /dev/disk, which are stable methods for the hotplugger to provide uuids and labels to user space. My little removable-disk-manager "hopman" uses the third method, much simpler and faster than option 2. If you don't want this /dev/disk tree, I think you could work without a hotplugger: provided your kernel is compiled with devtmpfs enabled, /dev will be populated by the kernel. There might be other things the hotplugger do and the kernel doesn't; I don't pretend to know all of it. Note that with mdev, you can completely tailor the hotplugger to your will. If you consider the tree under /sys, this is another story; the team maintaining the Linux kernel claims that it isn't meant to be stable, but they grant some stable properties, at least that each leaf of the tree, representing the properties of a device, is unique - but not that the path to it is unique nor that it is stable over versions of the kernel. hopman browses the whole tree until it finds the device. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Has anybody else experienced Raspberry Pi breakage ?
I have an old Rpi 2B that will boot its original Raspbian fine but panics 'killing init' on Devuan. Has anybody else experienced this ? The only difference I can discern is that the Devuan repository executables (init) are compiled as PIE. Any suggestions to further the diagnosis of this issue gratefully received. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Felker Init: was without-systemd.org not working
Le 16/05/2020 à 11:30, Steve Litt a écrit : On Fri, 15 May 2020 14:44:06 -1000 Joel Roth via Dng wrote: Reminds me to revisit https://ewontfix.com/14/ for Felker's Broken by Design article on systemd. That web page changed my life. When I saw, on that page, how simple PID1 could really be, that was when I really started to despise systemd. I just re-read this nice document, thanks for reminding it. It is very intresting because it immediately raises a question: what if pid2 (called rc here) crashes? It isn't respawned by pid1. rc, as the supervisor of all other daemons, is essential to maintain the state of the system. I can think of four options when it crashes: 1) respawn it, but then, why wouldn't it crash again immediately? 2) reboot, but this may have the same effect as opton 1 if the cause of the crash persists. 3) stop the system, but why wouldn't it produce the same effect as the two options above at next boot. 4) do nothing and let the admin investigate. But at least there should be a possibility for the admin to log in on the console, which means spawning and re-spawning getty or sulogin. Therefore, as it has been said already, I'm for keeping the current sysv-init (but not sysv-rc) as is, instead of reducing it to the minimalistic example of Rich Felker, despite my respect and admiration for him. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Check default_transport if you can't send email through Postfix
On 5/16/20 11:49 PM, tux...@sapo.pt wrote: > The only thing it has in favor( we could join to that a simpler way of > configuration, no m4 needed like Sendmail), > it consumes horrendous amounts of resources.. with no explanation for > such hog resources behavior.. but it lacks a ton of features from Exim4( > based in Sendmail ).. "hog resources" & "lacks a ton of features" ??!? are you sure? care to put some examples? just wandering, cause i've seen no such behaviour/lack of features from "newbie" postfix in the past decade+... been a while since i used exim4 (like a decade ago :D)... i know there's no postfix-light package, in contrast to exim4-daemon-light (...), but never really felt the need for one... d. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Felker Init: was without-systemd.org not working
On 5/17/20 12:04 AM, tux...@sapo.pt wrote: > But is a major flaw, being it a init system for a operating system, and > not beign able to run shell scripts( systemd has also this limitation.. ).. you're right about s6, but wrong about systemd. you can run shell scripts with that bloated beast. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Felker Init: was without-systemd.org not working
Hello Steve, > This enraged me: > The fact that a Troubleshooting Trainer could make an init in a couple > weeks, yet the Redhat/Freedesktop/Poettering axis was telling us what a > complex thing an init was. They have in mind their own, different from yours and mine, idea of how the computers are to be used and administrated: A clueless user and magic behind the scenes, which also keeps the user clueless forever - good for business. /D ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] tobacco patch?
Hi, Ian Zimmerman writes: > On 2020-05-16 16:51, Hendrik Boom wrote: > >> What do you mean by "tobacco patch"? > > It's an analogy with a medical device used to help smokers with quitting. I think in Europe it's better known as a nicotine patch. Hope this helps, -- Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] tobacco patch? (OT)
On Sat, 16 May 2020 18:13:58 -0700 Ian Zimmerman wrote: > On 2020-05-16 16:51, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > What do you mean by "tobacco patch"? > > It's an analogy with a medical device used to help smokers with > quitting. Aah. I would say "nicotine patch". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine_patch ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Device naming: was Felker Init: was without-systemd.org not working
Citando Ian Zimmerman : On 2020-05-16 13:10, Rick Moen via Dng wrote: I meant multiple subtrees of device node files classified in lots of different and overlapping ways, by-uuid, and on and on. I'll take that one :-P Last year I nearly lost all my image and audio data, some 100G. I guess that's small potatoes today, but anyway _very_ valuable to me. It happened because I gave the wrong /dev/sd* name in a dd command when I was putting something on a stick, maybe it was Tails or something like it. If only I had listened to my nagging inner voice and looked at /dev/disk/by-id first, I'd have been okay. (I later recovered pretty much everything with photorec, much recommended.) photorec.. its the last resort, and you can recover some information with it, but prepare yourself for lots of pain :) Anyway, this blind uuid generation is something crazy, and foolish.. If you only have 1 ethernet interface, 1 hard drive, and so on, you need it for what? your system will have always the same name attributed( you only have one option.. ) You see that in the embedded space, When majority of boards only have 1 ethernet port, but you got names like 'wlanxyzwqrlng'.. Its absurd, It doesn't even validate the amount of attributes of same type, it blindly use "cryptographic names".. RaspberryPi ones ...are just crazy..:'ENXB827EBA8D596' This is a security flaw for humans, as you can't distinguish sh**T with this naming's.. And probably will commit a serious mistake some day.. Best Regards, tux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
