[DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
Hi! I migrated a Debian Buster to Devuan Chimaera by already install runit- init into /target during Debian installation and then switching over sources.list to Chimaera. Debian 11 defaults to usr merge. So the installed system used usr merge. I suppose Devuan is compatible and will remain compatible with that? I think it would be necessary as well some users may migrate from buster. Or one would have to find a way to undo the merge, but this I think is quite error prone. I like to avoid breaking the server VM by undoing usr merge, even tough I prefer systems without usr merge. It is easy to do with systems where I can use a Devuan ISO for installation, but for this system I had the Debian Netinstall ISO and it is what it is. Best, -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
On Fri, 2021-11-05 at 10:52 +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > Hi! > > I migrated a Debian Buster to Devuan Chimaera by already install runit- > init into /target during Debian installation and then switching over > sources.list to Chimaera. > > Debian 11 defaults to usr merge. So the installed system used usr > merge. > > I suppose Devuan is compatible and will remain compatible with that? I > think it would be necessary as well some users may migrate from > buster. Or one would have to find a way to undo the merge, but this I > think is quite error prone. Devuan defaults to non-merged-/usr as far as I know. You can always install with merged-/usr on Devuan too using the expert install option. (Personally I prefer non-merged-/usr remains to be the default.) > I like to avoid breaking the server VM by undoing usr merge, even tough > I prefer systems without usr merge. It is easy to do with systems where > I can use a Devuan ISO for installation, but for this system I had the > Debian Netinstall ISO and it is what it is. You can use the dpkg-fsys-usrunmess, with a dpkg release later than or equal to 1.20.6, see https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Dpkg/MergedUsr "For already installed systems (since dpkg 1.20.6) you can also use the dpkg-fsys-usrunmess program to revert the breakage from these systems (but beware that it should not be used in systemd's emergency mode)." (I've used that script on two Debian installations successfully already.) Thanks! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] mutt and html
On Wed, Nov 03, 2021 at 12:45:02PM -0600, Bob Proulx via Dng wrote: > Hendrik Boom wrote: >> ~/.muttrc: >> set mailcap_path="~/.mailcap" > Strange. This is not needed to be set for me. Does that setting > override the default use of /etc/mailcap? Yes and no, it's simpler and more complicated. '~/.mailcap' and '/etc/mailcap' (and couple of others) are smashed together and then some entry wins. Thing is, rules applied are different for mime-tools and mutt, I think. Thus, maybe you don't need this setting. >> auto_view text/html >> Unfortunately it now prefers the .html version to the plaintext >> version. I presume I need an alternative_order line. *SKIP* > I don't know if there is a better way to configure it. But because of > not being able to deduce a way to avoid this undesired behavior I > avoid that configuration and use an explicit 'm' to mimecap-view the > html part explicitly instead. As I understand your requirements, (just mentioned above) 'alternative_order' list (or is it command?) needs adjustment. Thing is, I can't find a way to query contents of 'alternative_order' *list*, thus you need 'unalternative_order' *command*, and then set *list* with 'alternative_order' *command*. Anyway, this kindof documented in section "MIME Multipart/Alternative". *CUT* -- Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
Hi Svante. No need to Cc me. I am subscribed. (I know there are different habits, so just a friendly information.) Svante Signell - 05.11.21, 11:26:52 CET: > On Fri, 2021-11-05 at 10:52 +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > Debian 11 defaults to usr merge. So the installed system used usr > > merge. > > > > I suppose Devuan is compatible and will remain compatible with that? > > I think it would be necessary as well some users may migrate from > > buster. Or one would have to find a way to undo the merge, but this > > I think is quite error prone. > > Devuan defaults to non-merged-/usr as far as I know. You can always > install with merged-/usr on Devuan too using the expert install > option. (Personally I prefer non-merged-/usr remains to be the > default.) Yeah… I always install Devuan them without merged-/usr. > > I like to avoid breaking the server VM by undoing usr merge, even > > tough I prefer systems without usr merge. It is easy to do with > > systems where I can use a Devuan ISO for installation, but for this > > system I had the Debian Netinstall ISO and it is what it is. > > You can use the dpkg-fsys-usrunmess, with a dpkg release later than or > equal to 1.20.6, see https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Dpkg/MergedUsr > > "For already installed systems (since dpkg 1.20.6) you can also use > the dpkg-fsys-usrunmess program to revert the breakage from these > systems (but beware that it should not be used in systemd's emergency > mode)." > > (I've used that script on two Debian installations successfully > already.) Splendid. Thanks a lot for this. I hesitated, not wanting to cause any further hassle for the admins of the virtualization infrastructure the server VM runs on, but it indeed worked. It appears that… there is… some… discussion about the merged-/usr approach currently taken in Debian. What a mass. Happy I could undo it, although I am in awe for the developer of dpkg- fsys-usrunmess and it feels like I have used a magic wand of some kind. Best, -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
Debian 11 Bullseye is the last Debian release that supports the non-merged-usr layout. It is therefore foreseeable that Devuan 4 Chimaera will also be. Official Debian information: The historical justifications for the filesystem layout with /bin, /sbin, and /lib directories separate from their equivalents under /usr no longer apply today; see the Freedesktop.org summary. Debian bullseye will be the last Debian release that supports the non-merged-usr layout; for systems with a legacy layout that have been upgraded without a reinstall, the usrmerge package exists to do the conversion if desired. https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=841666 The Technical Committee resolves that Debian 'bookworm' should support only the merged-usr root filesystem layout, dropping support for the non-merged-usr layout. Until after the release of 'bullseye', any implementation of this resolution must be done in the 'experimental' distribution, or otherwise kept out of the critical paths for the release of 'bullseye'. https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=978636 En viernes, 5 de noviembre de 2021 15:44:21 CET, Martin Steigerwald escribió: Hi Svante. No need to Cc me. I am subscribed. (I know there are different habits, so just a friendly information.) Svante Signell - 05.11.21, 11:26:52 CET: > On Fri, 2021-11-05 at 10:52 +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > Debian 11 defaults to usr merge. So the installed system used usr > > merge. > > > > I suppose Devuan is compatible and will remain compatible with that? > > I think it would be necessary as well some users may migrate from > > buster. Or one would have to find a way to undo the merge, but this > > I think is quite error prone. > > Devuan defaults to non-merged-/usr as far as I know. You can always > install with merged-/usr on Devuan too using the expert install > option. (Personally I prefer non-merged-/usr remains to be the > default.) Yeah… I always install Devuan them without merged-/usr. > > I like to avoid breaking the server VM by undoing usr merge, even > > tough I prefer systems without usr merge. It is easy to do with > > systems where I can use a Devuan ISO for installation, but for this > > system I had the Debian Netinstall ISO and it is what it is. > > You can use the dpkg-fsys-usrunmess, with a dpkg release later than or > equal to 1.20.6, see https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Dpkg/MergedUsr > > "For already installed systems (since dpkg 1.20.6) you can also use > the dpkg-fsys-usrunmess program to revert the breakage from these > systems (but beware that it should not be used in systemd's emergency > mode)." > > (I've used that script on two Debian installations successfully > already.) Splendid. Thanks a lot for this. I hesitated, not wanting to cause any further hassle for the admins of the virtualization infrastructure the server VM runs on, but it indeed worked. It appears that… there is… some… discussion about the merged-/usr approach currently taken in Debian. What a mass. Happy I could undo it, although I am in awe for the developer of dpkg- fsys-usrunmess and it feels like I have used a magic wand of some kind. Best, -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
On Fri, 2021-11-05 at 18:50 +, Alexis PM via Dng wrote: > Debian 11 Bullseye is the last Debian release that supports the non- > merged-usr layout. It is therefore foreseeable that Devuan 4 Chimaera > will also be. > I'm not so sure Devuan has to follow Debian with respect to merged- /usr. In my opinion it is more a policy decision to make for the project. It is up to discussion though though. Comments/arguments/opinions are very welcomed. Thanks! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
Svante Signell via Dng - 05.11.21, 21:13:10 CET: > On Fri, 2021-11-05 at 18:50 +, Alexis PM via Dng wrote: > > Debian 11 Bullseye is the last Debian release that supports the > > non- > > merged-usr layout. It is therefore foreseeable that Devuan 4 > > Chimaera > > will also be. > > I'm not so sure Devuan has to follow Debian with respect to merged- > /usr. In my opinion it is more a policy decision to make for the > project. It is up to discussion though though. > Comments/arguments/opinions are very welcomed. I wonder what Devuan would do, if Debian packages ship all binaries in /usr. It would need quite some patching to undo it. But for all Devuan Beowulf / Chimaera servers it will be no /usr-merge for me. And for my Devuan Ceres laptops it will be like that for as long as possible. I do not find the link at the moment, but I saw a quite good idea for an alternative to the FHS standard. And this was using /command directory for the currently active binaries, symlinked to packages in /package directory where they contain version numbers. And also some provision for documentation. I do not know how libs where handled tough in this scheme. But in the end an alternative would need to provide a real benefit for me, especially if some breakage is to be expected. With merged /usr I get the breakage… but I do not see much of a benefit at least for the way I use Linux. Best, -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
Martin Steigerwald said on Fri, 05 Nov 2021 15:44:06 +0100 >No need to Cc me. I am subscribed. (I know there are different habits, >so just a friendly information.) Me too. I'm on the list, and people cc'ing me when replying to the list or writing to me and cc'ing the list just complexify my life. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] To cc or not cc. (was: Devuan with usr merge?)
On Fri, 05 Nov 2021, Steve Litt wrote: Me too. I'm on the list, and people cc'ing me when replying to the list or writing to me and cc'ing the list just complexify my life. One thing to keep in mind is that not everybody contributing to the exchange is, in fact, subscribed to the list. As such, replying to the group would then include everybody relevant to the discussion. Not only that, but one might want to cc the list as an archival purpose. Or even send the message to multiple lists along relevant recipients which may not be subscribed… People interracting around here aren't prescient and do not necessarily know if you are, or not, subscribed. Cheers, Ludovic signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
Alexis PM via Dng said on Fri, 5 Nov 2021 18:50:41 + (UTC) > Debian 11 Bullseye is the last Debian release that supports the > non-merged-usr layout. >It is therefore foreseeable that Devuan 4 Chimaera will also be. > >Official Debian information: > >The historical justifications for the filesystem layout with /bin, >/sbin, and /lib directories separate from their equivalents under /usr >no longer apply today; see the Freedesktop.org summary. That's Freedesktop.org's opinion. Freedesktop is also very pro-systemd. Personally, I want a directory, guaranteed not to be a mount point, where the statically compiled binaries necessary to bring up the system, things like mount and ln and vi and fsck, etc, so if I don't want to, I don't have to run an initramfs. Even if /usr is a mountpoint. The usr merge just denies us one more thing we used to be able to do, which is typical of Freedesktop.Org recommended stuff. As far as Debian's "Official Debian information", if Debian always made wise choices, there would be no Devuan. :-) SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan with usr merge?
On 11/5/21 4:13 PM, Svante Signell via Dng wrote: > On Fri, 2021-11-05 at 18:50 +, Alexis PM via Dng wrote: >> Debian 11 Bullseye is the last Debian release that supports the non- >> merged-usr layout. It is therefore foreseeable that Devuan 4 Chimaera >> will also be. >> > > I'm not so sure Devuan has to follow Debian with respect to merged- > /usr. In my opinion it is more a policy decision to make for the > project. It is up to discussion though though. > Comments/arguments/opinions are very welcomed. > > Thanks! > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > BSD and system V (AT&T/Bell Labs System Five) switched more than a decade ago. The original intent was for a fast disk for root and less expensive media for all else. This was in the days of Lab Version 6 and 7, later system III and BSD 4.x. A large disk was 100 MB. Once large fast disks of 100GB became inexpensive commodities, the incentive was gone. None the less, from a personal perspective: I have been using Unix since lab version 6. I have used BSD since 4.0, Minix, Ultrix, etc. I have no preference and would suggest that whatever is easiest for the maintainers/developers of Devuan should be adopted. -- William (Bill) Moss billm...@acm.org NY (USA) Those who will not reason, are bigots, those who cannot, are fools, and those who dare not, are slaves. Lord Byron Justice will not be served until those who are unaffected are as outraged as those who are. Benjamin Franklin When the people fear the government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people there is liberty. John Basil Barnhill ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] To cc or not cc. (was: Devuan with usr merge?)
Ludovic Bellière via Dng said on Sat, 6 Nov 2021 03:00:38 +0100 >On Fri, 05 Nov 2021, Steve Litt wrote: > >> >>Me too. I'm on the list, and people cc'ing me when replying to the >>list or writing to me and cc'ing the list just complexify my life. >> > >One thing to keep in mind is that not everybody contributing to the >exchange is, in fact, subscribed to the list. It takes a special type of hubris bordering on narcissism to email a mailing list, to which one didn't bother to subscribe, and expect people to jump through extra hoops to get back to one. The old "please cc me because I'm not on the list" thing is presumptuous. And, as a good citizen who subscribes to every mailing list he writes to, it frosts my petunias to have to deal with pairs of email to accommodate such self-centered drive-by emailers. > Not >only that, but one might want to cc the list as an archival purpose. This is easily accomplished by sending the sole reply to the list. And if I'm not on that list, it's considered a privacy breach and seriously bad form to reply what I sent personally to the list. >Or even send the message to multiple lists along relevant recipients >which may not be subscribed… First, cross posting to several lists is considered rude, it's despised by many sysadmins, and it's really bad form. Add to such cross posting that one isn't even a normal community member, and such a post borders on spam. >People interracting around here aren't prescient and do not >necessarily know if you are, or not, subscribed. Announcement: Steve Litt is subscribe, reads every DNG email, and neither needs nor wants second copies :-) You know, a more serious cause of this problem is this DKIM/DMARC thing that cause mailing list admins to jump through hoops, including bolting on a personal cc where one didn't exist before. I personally try hard to remember to erase the cc inserted by DNG before clicking Send. What would be even better would be if all mailing lists defaulted to replying just to the list, yet still being able to somehow convey the email address of the sender just in case there's a reason to email that sender privately. The biggest accomplishment of this DMARC/DKIM thing was to make email such a mess that it sent even more of the dummy dwobes to Facebook, a private club having a monopoly over communication. What could POSSIBLY go wrong? SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
