Re: [DNG] Multi-seat on Devuan, do we actually need that useless curiosity?
Yeah, but that is why we have VNC for.
As I said, multiseat is pretty much useless.
Hell, the proprietary software can be installed on a server and run from
anywhere.
On Jul 23, 2015 6:32 AM, Isaac Dunham ibid...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 03:49:32AM +0300, Vlad wrote:
I think that the pretty useless feature which helped systemd into Debian
in the first place was discussed some time ago.
As you might know multi seat is supposed to make possible for multiple
users to utilize a single desktop or laptop system in full blown GUI mode
via special USB hubs, the main selling point of this curiosity was as a
way to run schools in 3rd world countries.
However these extension hubs actually cost more than a Raspberry Pi, and
the Pi has the extra selling point that the student can take it home and
use it there.
I do not see any real need for silly things like multi seat and with
every nanometer less and every new cell phone the price and power
consumption per Ghz falls.
In my opinion 99+% of users really won't care about this curiosity,
which is a cool concept with less and less actual relevance or practical
purpose behind it with every passing day.
Somehow it seems to me like someone trying to reinvent the dumb terminal,
but with less distance possible.
I could imagine one situation where it makes sense:
$site is running commercial software for x86{,_64}, licensed on a per-
processor basis with multiple users permitted; said commercial software
requires a decent processor but not much GPU.
Other than that, I can't picture a use.
All that said, I *can* picture a way to implement it using X(fbdev?) and
perhaps mdev (which I thought about not long ago...):
- *disable* input device hotplug in X11
- keyboards get renamed /dev/input/kbd$N, like how mice are named
- for new keyboards, mice, and framebuffer/drm nodes, run a helper
script that will spawn an X11 login if the appropriate devices exist
for the current $N.
You could even use hard links, bind mounts, and unshare to make
restricted containers for different users.
(I'm thinking of putting hard links to the device in /dev/seat$N/, but
with normal naming conventions under that. Then each seat gets a new
mount namespace and a private bind-mount over /dev.)
In theory, that should be a pretty small amount of work.
But I don't have any hardware suitable for testing, and don't feel that
it really justifies getting said hardware.
Thanks,
Isaac Dunham
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Re: [DNG] sans-dbus: was Will there be a MirDevuan WTF?
Alsa uses dbus, since when? On Jul 23, 2015 7:12 PM, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 08:39:05 +0200 Michael Bütow mbu...@houtbay.com wrote: I am sure if someone wants to expend the energy to get rid of D-Bus related software in Devuan, they can set up their own spin of it. For those of you who don't want dbus, my experience tells me that getting rid of it would involve something like the following: * Use something like fvwm, Openbox or LXDE that makes minimal or no use of dbus. * Don't use NetworkManager. I don't remember whether Wicd uses dbus or not. If Wicd uses dbus, just do a combination of iwlist scanning and wpa_supplicant to dial in Wifi. Put a command into your init system that kills the dbus started in your initramfs. I personally wouldn't recommend tampering with your initramfs itself. In your init system, get rid of commands that start or modify a running dbus. Get rid of Pulseaudio (obviously, and not just to get away from dbus), get rid of ALSA to get away from dbus, and use OSS with snd_mixer_oss and rexima. You might have to tell several of your GUI programs not to do notifications, because they notify to dbus without the option to notify other ways. It's probably not going to be that difficult for the average Devuan user to get rid of dbus if s/he wants to. SteveT Steve Litt July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Multi-seat on Devuan, do we actually need that useless curiosity?
I think that the pretty useless feature which helped systemd into Debian in the first place was discussed some time ago. As you might know multi seat is supposed to make possible for multiple users to utilize a single desktop or laptop system in full blown GUI mode via special USB hubs, the main selling point of this curiosity was as a way to run schools in 3rd world countries. However these extension hubs actually cost more than a Raspberry Pi, and the Pi has the extra selling point that the student can take it home and use it there. I do not see any real need for silly things like multi seat and with every nanometer less and every new cell phone the price and power consumption per Ghz falls. There is also the cloud and BIOD to consider, as well as laptops and tablets. In my opinion 99+% of users really won't care about this curiosity, which is a cool concept with less and less actual relevance or practical purpose behind it with every passing day. -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] This has GOT to be an April Fools joke
This would IMO be a good thing, as it will limit the interaction between Poettering OS and normal Linux, and they would have to fix the bugs they create themselves, rather than bitch and moan about the kernel not playing well with their software, it would also mean that they can implement stuff like kdbus without inflicting it on the real kernel. Seriously this if true would be the first good thing to come out of the systemd team in a long time, why aren't we funding this? On Mar 30, 2015 2:25 PM, Nate Bargmann n...@n0nb.us wrote: Is this really happening? Now it appears as though the systemd developers have found a solution to kernel compatibility problems and a way to extend their philosophy of placing all key operating system components in one repository. According to Ivan Gotyaovich, one of the developers working on systemd, the project intends to maintain its own fork of the Linux kernel. There are problems, problems in collaboration, problems with compatibility across versions. Forking the kernel gives us control over these issues, gives us control over almost all key parts of the stack. http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20150330#community Our proximity to April 1 makes me wonder, but still... While there are several quotes in the article from one Ivan Gotyaovich, I don't see any links to said quotes which leaves me a bit skeptical of the veracity of the article. However, the link to GitHub looks very much like a kernel source tree, but I'm not certain that it is an official repository. Before anyone takes this too seriously a bit more research needs to be done as we are very close to the date that an elaborate ruse is plausible, at least for us in the USA. - Nate -- The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true. Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?
I use F-Droid with cyanogen and I am quite happy, the number and quality of apps is steadily increasing too. On Mar 30, 2015 2:49 PM, John Morris jmor...@beau.org wrote: On Sat, 2015-03-28 at 12:33 +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: BTW, I, like many others, find convenient to use e.g. Skype, and I would prefer to run it inside a container. Over there, Linux installers are Shareware. All of them. I'm not a priest of St. Ignucius but the idea of the return of Shareware gives me the willies and is a future I do. not. want. I don't understand your point. Are sharewares the present as you first say or are they a future you don't want to see? I don't see also why you call shareware the Debian installer. Go look at the Play Store. You can install Linux, including Debian, inside Android via fairly turnkey installers. All of them are Shareware. Not just most of them. Yes there is F-Droid, with all of a few hundred packages, everything else is nagware, spyware, adware or outright paid. F-Droid has Linux a Linux installer too and yup it too was Shareware last time I looked. They had to start admitting Shareware to F-Droid or it apparently would be an empty repo. Build a platform around the idea of untrusted apps and apparently they will come, add in seamless ads and micropayments and Free Software vanishes, Virtualization, containers and jails all have their place, untrustworthy (all closed source) software like Skype being a good use. But when we reach the point we routinely take the performance hit and run everything in one it will probably be because we have surrendered control of the repos to the untrustworthy... or soon will. At the end, John, I don't find what you are proposing, nor even if you do propose anything to avoid what happened with systemd and might well happen again. Simple. Systemd is only the tip of the spear in what appears planned as a total reinvention of the OS. They aren't done yet. What happens when the next major component of that plan appears upstream is something that should be anticipated and planned for this time. We should not be caught unawares again. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] This has GOT to be an April Fools joke
exactly. On Mar 30, 2015 4:15 PM, Chris Kalin chris.ka...@ibmilw.com wrote: I hope it's absolutely true. Do all the ripping out and rebuilding in their own tree, and if Linus et al don't want to merge the changes back into mainline, distro users can use a sane kernel. Keep your peanut butter out of my chocolate, as it were. Chris Kalin Sr. Network Engineer Leading Upward Mobility Industries for the Blind, Inc. 445 S. Curtis Rd. | West Allis, WI 53214 p. 414-778-3065 c. 414-238-3914 t. 800-642-8778 f. 414-778-3041 www.IBmilw.com Facebook | LinkedIn | Twitter | YouTube NOTICE: The information contained in this email and any document attached hereto is intended only for the named recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient, nor the employee or agent responsible for delivering this message in confidence to the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that you have received this transmittal in error, and any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this transmittal or its attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmittal and/or attachments in error, please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message, including any attachments. -Original Message- From: Nate Bargmann [mailto:n...@n0nb.us] Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 6:25 AM To: Devuan project Subject: [Dng] This has GOT to be an April Fools joke Is this really happening? Now it appears as though the systemd developers have found a solution to kernel compatibility problems and a way to extend their philosophy of placing all key operating system components in one repository. According to Ivan Gotyaovich, one of the developers working on systemd, the project intends to maintain its own fork of the Linux kernel. There are problems, problems in collaboration, problems with compatibility across versions. Forking the kernel gives us control over these issues, gives us control over almost all key parts of the stack. http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20150330#community Our proximity to April 1 makes me wonder, but still... While there are several quotes in the article from one Ivan Gotyaovich, I don't see any links to said quotes which leaves me a bit skeptical of the veracity of the article. However, the link to GitHub looks very much like a kernel source tree, but I'm not certain that it is an official repository. Before anyone takes this too seriously a bit more research needs to be done as we are very close to the date that an elaborate ruse is plausible, at least for us in the USA. - Nate -- The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true. Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What's new in Systemd
I think he might be a concern troll, best ignore him. On Feb 3, 2015 1:32 AM, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: On Mon, 02 Feb 2015 16:54:12 -0600 t.j.duch...@gmail.com wrote: On Monday, February 02, 2015 07:57:23 PM Vlad wrote: Hey Lennart if you dislike Devuan that much feel free to go back to freedesktop.org or whatever? You misunderstood what I meant. I was in a hurry, and I admit, I should have phrased it better. Mea culpa. The reality is that no matter what anyone does, systemd is here to stay, Oh geez, I gave you the benefit of the doubt on the first post, and now you write the preceding. You're on this mailing list why? People are working very hard to depoetterize Linux as fast as Red Hat can poetterize it. Your statement above is a slap in the face to the people making eudev, vdev, and lots of other stuff. You must have one heck of a crystal ball, because I sure haven't had voices from a burning bush tell me that systemd is here to stay. It could easily be gone, and considered a huge mistake, within three years. and it is likely going to be a long term issue, requiring a long term solution. Consider that upstream projects entirely outside of Devuan's control are going to be aiming dependencies on systemd. Gnome already does, and there are plains for KDE to take a similar path. There's an easy cure for that: f em! If they force Devian not to support them, well, that was their decision, wasn't it? There is no escaping this fact of life. So true. The British will rule America and India, it's a fact of life. What the hell does fact of life even mean? Linux as an OS is developed in a hodgepodge of distributions. The reason systemd has found such wide adoption is that it simplifies their work. As long as distributors use it, more and more project developers are going to create dependencies on systemd. You really do love systemd. I thought it was just a summer thing. If you want to simplify their work, read up on the Supervision Scripts at https://bitbucket.org/avery_payne/supervision-scripts . Unless Devuan intends to drop or fork every single piece of software that decides to use systemd's facilities, Not a bad idea at all in the long run, but in the short run I've proven over and over again that you can init with a simple init, and (temporarily) use systemd's udev etc. As far as Gnome, well, they made their choice, let them live with it. it's going to be a war of attrition as things go on, no matter the arguments against systemd. Yeah, they said Linux could never survive against Windows either. Unless systemd implodes of its own accord, which is unlikely - Very likely. For instance, look at who is left on Debian-User. Nothing but noob, far as the eye can see. This is where they scout for devs. Huge numbers of people are totally enraged with systemd. The only people who totally love systemd are paid to do so. Devuan is probably going to have to provide some form of compatibility in the future. This will be the case, regardless of how you or I might feel on the subject, especially if kdbus gets integrated into the Linux kernel. If that happens, it might as well be game over for systems that do not provide at least a shim. By all means then, let Devuan provide a shim, at least in the short run. I think that uselessd or FreeBSD's compatibility projects are probably the most likely solutions. And you're on this list why? Seriously, T.J. why? I said anti-Debian stuff on the Debian-User list because I saw Debian as the last hope for life without systemd. I was factually wrong. But you have millions of choices, involving systemd from 100% to 0% and anything in between, so why do you come on this list evangelizing systemd, and telling us our efforts are useless? SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
