Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news
On 07/30/2016 07:37 PM, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > ..2 wise things we can use: the Full 4 Geneva Conventions offer the > legal text of the 4 Conventions and its 3 Protocols Additional, e.g. > Article 87 Duty of commanders ... > I'm sorry but I'm not willing to click external links to military institutional texts at this point. Can you explain your rationale why this literature would apply to a free software community? Or simply join the relevant text excerpts instead of putting the burden on the reader to figure out the link? /me doesn't feel like a commander on duty. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news
On 07/30/2016 07:45 PM, Rick Moen wrote: > > It doesn't hurt to just _ask_ Joey his perspective. > I did already, as I mentioned earlier in this thread. For the record, here is the content of my message to him: * Subject: a toxic document? Hello I'm working with the Devuan project, and drafted last year a "constitution" that's quite different from Debian's. You mentioned that "Debian Constitution is a toxic document", but I couldn't find any expansion on why you consider it is so. Would you like to expand on this, so I can ensure my draft won't inherit such toxicity? The document is accessible at https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/HellekinConstitutionDraft if you'd like to read it. Thank you for your attention, == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news
On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 07:31:00 +, hellekin wrote in message <869e8fb2-2f17-2331-a443-9e2f4658c...@dyne.org>: > On 07/30/2016 07:37 PM, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > > > ..2 wise things we can use: the Full 4 Geneva Conventions offer the > > legal text of the 4 Conventions and its 3 Protocols Additional, e.g. > > Article 87 Duty of commanders ... > > > > I'm sorry but I'm not willing to click external links to military > institutional texts at this point. ..in a slightly better world it would be and we would be enforcing it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Committee_of_the_Red_Cross And given its database driven web site cookie etc policy, I can also see cause for concern on e.g. tracking you, browsers etc, the ICRC should IMNTHO be able to provide easy static links to each Article and its Commentary/Commentaries (some Articles now has e.g. 1952 AND 2016 Commentaries). > Can you explain your rationale why > this literature would apply to a free software community? > > Or simply join the relevant text excerpts instead of putting the > burden on the reader to figure out the link? ..not the text or commentaries themselves, but the method the ICRC use here, each Article has fairly terse language setting the Law, and its Commentary explains the background, the rationale, the intentions, the history, case law, how it worked, how it failed, how to use it in war, how to use it in court martials, how to use it in post war litigations etc to stay as close as possible to the spirit of the intentions behind the text of each Article. ..in our case, we would/should build our Articles upon the Debian ones, and use our Commentaries to explain the background, the rationale, the intentions, the mail list etc history, case law, how it worked, how it failed getting them SystemD and making us fork etc, how we wanna use it going forward, and write our Articles to make staying as close as possible to the spirit of the intentions behind the text of each Article, easy and simple. > /me doesn't feel like a commander on duty. ..then you shouldn't take leadership leading by example. ;o) I prefer you carry on as you have. :o) But I don't mind tweaks. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 00:36:22 +0200 Franco Lanza wrote: > Personally on debian i was using from date > > APT:Install-Recommends "0"; > APT:Install-Suggests "0"; > > in all my install apt.conf. > > I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required > but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded > envs, but also on my desktop. > > What do you think if we make this the default in devuan? I would be all in favour; hoping to limit the bloat, I have had for years # cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/40nosuggestrecommends Apt::Install-Suggests false; Apt::Install-Recommends false; Cheers, Ron. -- They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
W dniu 31.07.2016 o 13:47, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI pisze: On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 00:36:22 +0200 Franco Lanza wrote: Personally on debian i was using from date APT:Install-Recommends "0"; APT:Install-Suggests "0"; in all my install apt.conf. I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded envs, but also on my desktop. What do you think if we make this the default in devuan? I would be all in favour; hoping to limit the bloat, I have had for years # cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/40nosuggestrecommends Apt::Install-Suggests false; Apt::Install-Recommends false; Cheers, Ron. First law of software quality picture from nixcraft .. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Bad website CSS: was Devuan Sticker Poll
On 07/30/2016 06:10 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > > Here's a screenshot: > > http://a3b3.com/stuff/devuan_org_compressed_lines.png > Ouch. Can you please visit the following page and make a screenshot? I want to see if it comes from the software or the customization. https://meta.discourse.org/t/cloudfront-cannot-establish-ssl-connection-to-discourse-origin/16752/12 (This is a random page from my browser history) == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On 07/31/2016 02:20 PM, Paweł Cholewiński wrote: > > First law of software quality picture from nixcraft .. > Oh, they even provided a line of examples :) BTW, I thought this suggests/recommends set to false were already agreed upon, so +1 here. (Sorry I didn't take the time to read the whole thread.) == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Multiarch issues
I've enabled the i386 architecture on my Jessie 1.0 Beta amd64 main desktop. All is going well except I cannot install the libgtkhtml-4.0-0:i386 package due to the following: $ sudo apt-get install libgtkhtml-4.0-0:i386 Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable distribution that some required packages have not yet been created or been moved out of Incoming. The following information may help to resolve the situation: The following packages have unmet dependencies: libgtkhtml-4.0-0:i386 : Depends: libenchant1c2a:i386 (>= 1.6.0) but it is not going to be installed Depends: libgail-3-0:i386 (>= 3.0.0) but it is not going to be installed Depends: libgtk-3-0:i386 (>= 3.7.10) but it is not going to be installed Depends: libgtkhtml-4.0-common:i386 (= 4.8.5-1) but it is not installable E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages. When I look at the Debian Web package for the Jessie package of libgtkhtml-4.0-common, it is shown as architecture 'all'. Even trying to install the amd64 (default for my system) doesn't help. Is this a Debian bug? - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Building w/ gtk2 vs gtk3
On Fri, 1 Jul 2016 06:18:28 +0200, Adam wrote in message <20160701041828.gc5...@angband.pl>: > On Fri, Jul 01, 2016 at 04:40:30AM +0200, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT > consult wrote: > > I'm currently packaging recent geeqie for Ubuntu Trustry > > (which I'm still running on my notebook), and that leads me > > to an interesting question: > > > > How to properly package applications that can be built for > > gtk2 vs. gtk3 ? > > I'd say GTK3 doesn't "have regressions", but "it's one big > regression". Just to name a few: CSD, font selection dialog, file > open/save dialog, etc. > > However, I see most project which didn't abandon the GTK ship > altogether (Chromium, LXDE, etc) downgrading to GTK3 these days: ..appears "we" are "upgrading" Chromium to GTK3 now: http://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs//main/c/chromium-browser/chromium-browser_52.0.2743.82-4_changelog > Firefox (was in unstable, reverted for now), MATE (already), Xfce > (not yet done upstream), etc. Thus, it looks like we'll suffer it in > the long run. > > > Should we have two separate packages (eg. geeqie-gtk2 vs. > > geeqie-gtk3) ? > > I'd bother only if you care about Gnome3. And as we're on dng rather > than debian-devel, I guess you don't. > > > And how to handle other optional features (eg. lirc support) ? > > Typically the answer is "include everything unless it'd pull _really_ > fat dependencies, and even then the optional stuff should still be > packaged", but it depends on whom you package it for. Best to use > your best judgement. > > > Meow! -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Bad website CSS: was Devuan Sticker Poll
On Sun, 31 Jul 2016 18:51:57 + hellekin wrote: > On 07/30/2016 06:10 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > > > > Here's a screenshot: > > > > http://a3b3.com/stuff/devuan_org_compressed_lines.png > > > > Ouch. Can you please visit the following page and make a > screenshot? I want to see if it comes from the software or the > customization. > > https://meta.discourse.org/t/cloudfront-cannot-establish-ssl-connection-to-discourse-origin/16752/12 > > (This is a random page from my browser history) Here's the Palemoon screenshot of https://meta.discourse.org/t/cloudfront-cannot-establish-ssl-connection-to-discourse-origin/16752/12 http://a3b3.com/stuff/devuan_cloudfront.png Looks good,right? Now look at that page zoomed in quite a bit: http://a3b3.com/stuff/devuan_cloudfront_zoomed.png Still nice, right? Please ignore the font's pixellation: That's my bad, it happens when I bigtime zoom any page. In summary, https://meta.discourse.org/t/cloudfront-cannot-establish-ssl-connection-to-discourse-origin/16752/12 does not in the slightest exhibit the awful font and lack of interline spacing that https://talk.devuan.org/t/devuan-merchandise/177/2?u=hellekin did. HTH, SteveT Steve Litt July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and, "Recommends" dependency?
Hi Nextime, On 07/31/2016 02:00 PM, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: Franco Lanza wrote: >Personally on debian i was using from date > >APT:Install-Recommends "0"; >APT:Install-Suggests "0"; > >in all my install apt.conf. > >I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required >but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded >envs, but also on my desktop. > >What do you think if we make this the default in devuan? I would be all in favour; hoping to limit the bloat, I have had for years # cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/40nosuggestrecommends Apt::Install-Suggests false; Apt::Install-Recommends false; Cheers, Ron. This is the configuration recommended by dev1fanboy in his guide about how to upgrade from debian to devuan: https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/wikis/Upgrade-to-Devuan-and-minimalism Cheers, Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
Hi Why are we dragging up a thread from over a year ago?? I strongly disagree, installing "Recommends" are IMHO reasonable for the common case, and that should stay the default except where the user wants to maintain a really minimal system, and is prepared to have to install everything not an explicit hard dependency. I think it may be useful to add a question into the installer about this (probably only in expert mode) rather then blindly change the current setting. Where we are rebuilding packages we could certainly review and potentially reclassifying recommends as suggests where it seems appropriate. The risk is that by blindly changing the current settings in regards, is that those familiar with Debian would get a significantly different result from what they'd expect during an install. So I'd agree on providing the option during installation, but I stand strongly opposed to changing the default blindly just to suit a few power users preferences. Regards, Daniel. On 31/07/16 23:47, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 00:36:22 +0200 > Franco Lanza wrote: > >> Personally on debian i was using from date >> >> APT:Install-Recommends "0"; >> APT:Install-Suggests "0"; >> >> in all my install apt.conf. >> >> I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required >> but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded >> envs, but also on my desktop. >> >> What do you think if we make this the default in devuan? > > I would be all in favour; hoping to limit the bloat, I have had for years > > # cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/40nosuggestrecommends > Apt::Install-Suggests false; > Apt::Install-Recommends false; > -- Daniel Reurich Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd. 021 797 722 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?
On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 01:55:57PM +1200, Daniel Reurich wrote:
> Why are we dragging up a thread from over a year ago??
>
> I strongly disagree, installing "Recommends" are IMHO reasonable for the
> common case, and that should stay the default except where the user
> wants to maintain a really minimal system, and is prepared to have to
> install everything not an explicit hard dependency.
A thousand times this. "Recommends" are meant for _most_ users, not for a
minority who feels an urge to micromanage their systems. And let's say what
the policy says:
# `Recommends'
# This declares a strong, but not absolute, dependency.
#
# The `Recommends' field should list packages that would be found
# together with this one in all but unusual installations.
With this definition at hand, we can see why you're unhappy.
It might be that:
* you're unusual (like, a compulsive desire to remove all perceived bloat)
* your needs are unusual (deeply embedded, etc)
* the Recommends is in error
If it's the last, please file a bug. Either in Devuan, or, preferably in
cases not related to systemd, in Debian.
Usually such bogus Recommends are an obvious fix, but there _is_ a technical
issue that can make this complex: Recommends from libraries. The root of
that problem is, in many languages including C, having a library optional is
non-trivial. The difficulty in doing so can range from a few lines of code
to being impossible within a reasonable amount of effort. Thus, almost no
one bothers to, as a superfluous library is just a negligible amount of
wasted disk space. Unless that library pulls something else, that is.
It's discussed in depth in a previous discussion:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2016/04/msg00162.html
An example:
(many metapackages)->
[R]: xfce4-power-manager (GUI for power management)
[D]: upower (daemon that does the work)
[D]: libimobiledevice6 (a library for a minor side feature)
[R]: usbmuxd (daemon only for iPod owners)
Most of us do want xfce4-power-manager, so [R] is right.
It's just a GUI for the daemon, [D] is right.
Optional library dependency is lots of work, [D] for technical reasons.
The library is useless without its daemon, so... [D] or [R]?
My proposed fix for such cases is to forbid Recommends from libraries and
moving them to their users, so it'd be upower who decides how much it needs
usbmuxd (in this case, not at all).
So, when some Recommends offends you, please point it out.
I've attached a script (in some heathen language) that shows what
unsatisfied Recommends you have on your system. I forgot who's the author
of the script, sorry.
Meow!
--
An imaginary friend squared is a real enemy.
#!/usr/bin/python
import apt
c = apt.Cache()
for pkg in c:
if pkg.installed is not None:
for rd in pkg.candidate.get_dependencies("Recommends"):
if not rd.installed_target_versions:
print pkg, rd
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