Re: [Dng] About Devuan's audience
Didn't know this thread was poll-ish. I use/administer/whatever 100 machines at the moment: 11 run linux, the other 1 (my laptop) runs windows while still in warranty (and because in a realistic world i have to deal with Microsoft Office, although i've heard its 2003 version runs well in WINE). Of the 11 linux boxes: * 1 is my desktop which currently runs Whezzy with care taken every time i issue an apt-get install. This machine's been mostly for testing as some of its drives don't play along with the mobo's BIOS so i'll have to postpone ZFS for the moment and stick to RAID5 once i replace those drives. Later it'll be my home server. * Another 1 is a VPS, running Debian stable. * The other 1 is my work laptop which soon will run some other linux instead of the current ubuntu (which i dislike). I've been a regular user for probably around 10 years, alergic to behemoth DEs, not alergic to CLI or compiling stuff from source when even Sid is way behind, considering Slackware, Gentoo and/or LFS to try out new stuff, learn stuff and find good replacements for Debian (i'm not a distro-hoper, but that will very likely change). Yes, Devuan will be on that list. :) I'm also considering OpenBSD and OpenIndiana, assuming i have time to tinker. I have a lot of curiosity and too little time, but i'll help if i can. I'm here because i want choice and i like stuff to be modular and open, not closed and monolithic (unless we're talking about Clarke's 2001). Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Community polls on Devuan design
I'd go for: 1. http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/File:Negative-Galaxy-v1.5-SVG.svg or a spinoff of this, seems sober and not too flashy, i like it 2. http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/File:Devuan-D-Inspired-2.svg if the swirl could be improved and, as a suggestion, the other letters could be non-latin Btw, is there a roadmap? Or is devuan just gonna be debian without systemd? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan
Isn't Bastille a set of scripts to harden Debian security? Well, IMMHO, Devuan shouldn't need such a collection if said security was default (which should be). Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Community polls on Devuan design
On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 6:03 PM, Jaromil jaro...@dyne.org wrote: However, I don't think this is a priority now. I still cannot imagine why someone would want to be strictly anonymous while accessing that. You can replace anonymous with systemd, you know? It's a matter of choice. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] About separate mailing lists
Talking about something else, it seems that the list is becoming two-fold. On one hand, it becomes concentrated on development, while at the same time it discusses more philosophical issues. Maybe is it the moment to separate into a dev list and a users list? Nope. I think both being together is a strength, not a weekness. It's a way for developers to be in tune with what the (less techicaly inclined) users need/want, and for the users to receive some developer sensibility via osmosis. Or something like that. Just my 0.2 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] recommendation for consideration: keep as close to debian as possible
Assuming i don't get moderated out (unlike the resident troll), On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 9:59 PM, Luke Leighton l...@lkcl.net wrote: 1) your debian system will not be screwed up or compromised by using devuan. you will also not lose any functionality or packages. 2) we understand the difficulty of maintaining an entire distro. we implicitly understand that we will not get to 1,000 maintainers in the immediate future, so we are being realistic and will not be doing a complete fork. it's too much effort for us, and we recognise that you probably wouldn't trust us (i.e. wouldn't even want to *try* upgrading to devuan) if we created one. 3) we're restricting the scope of what we're doing to a few key strategic packages, and we're going to make it easy for you to remove systemd. that's our core focus. This seems reasonable, as does keeping compatibility. Devuan's is a small team, so taking one pondered step at a time is crucial. Focusing on removing systemd dependencies as a first step seems reasonable and, with more and more packages depending on systemd, challenging too. I wouldn't aim at releasing a behemoth DE like GNOME on the first Devuan release. KISS please, no GUI if necessary, focus on a plugable infrastructure. It makes sense to keep compatibility with Debian *and* with upstream. Someone mentioned it already and i wouldn't be surprised if Debian becomes poetterized and adds systemd dependencies to packages that don't have them from upstream. For now, it seems like a new repo on sources.list is the way to go (similar to debian-multimedia). In the future, maybe it'll become a distro. My 2c Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 6, Issue 75
On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 7:24 AM, T.J. Duchene t.j.duch...@gmail.com wrote: What I said was at some point Devuan will probably have to support systemd's API, in order to support upstream projects that actually require systemd. Why? Biggest example: GNOME (now) requires systemd. I don't want systemd, so, i won't use GNOME. If i want either, i'll use Debian, not Devuan. I don't understand this sheeple need to do what everybody else does, indded it's redmondesque. If you want that, go use another distro, there are hundreds out there who are doing what everybody else does. Use Ubuntu, it's fashionable and Debian-like. This particular distro, at least it seems to me, was born to *avoid* lock-ins like systemd. Or stuff that depends on lock-ins like systemd, which makes it [the dependant stuff] locked-in as well. Call it another kind of GPL thing if you will, systemd is becoming a UNIX™. Back then, GNU came along and created free versions (minus the kernel); nowaways, there's systemd™, and here's Devuan. So far the most sensible approach of established distros, to me, has been that of gentoo (which i'm currently exploring): they use OpenRC by default, but you're free to use systemd _if_ you want[1]. *That* is freedom of choice and i sincerely hope they won't succumb to the pressure. Since Debian didn't go that way (a sad surprise considering what i thought Debian was), here's Devuan. (I'm not considering Slackware at the moment 'cos Mr Volkerding hasn't been specific, he's wait-and-see-ing apparently.) Devuan's not at established distro and the purpose has been, from the beginning, to avoid lock-ins. You're free to package upstart or some other non-intrusive init system for Devuan, i'm sure the VUA won't mind, and then there'll be the choice between two unlocked init systems (implicitly calling systemd an init system is an understatement). But i don't see systemd in the Devuan universe - that'll completely defeat the purpose. Will avoiding systemd cause more work? Definitely. But what's the rush? Release when ready. My 0.02 Cheers, Nuno [1] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64/Installation/Base#Optional:_Using_systemd ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?
On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 9:09 PM, Joerg Reisenweber reisenwe...@web.de wrote: My guess would be that all rogue stuff like systemd simply doesn't show up in devuan's packages.gz, and thus any package depending on it would run into unmet dependencies when trying to install it. Makes sense. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] release names
On Sat, Mar 7, 2015 at 4:16 PM, Klaus Hartnegg hartn...@uni-freiburg.de wrote: Just want to say that I really like this idea of naming releases after minor planets, such as Ceres. It's a way cool idea. +1 Cool yes, but useful? Numbers have the huge advantage that everybody knows their order, which is quite important when referring to versions. Most people will want the latest version, which will always be the latest advertised on the site. Keeping tabs does matter, so a wikipage could solve that. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Plan for Devuan to use Mozilla products as is
On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 7:06 PM, T.J. Duchene t.j.duch...@gmail.com wrote: If someone has issue with the code, it's open. Go look for yourself. I beg everyone's kind indulgence and excuse me for saying this, but the conspiracy theories about Google and the Chromium source code come from people who have never actually looked at the code. Then again, I bet they haven't looked at the Firefox code either. Go look at the code, it's open is a common argument i hear from pro-systemd advocates. Curious. About looking at the code: have you personally audited chrome's code, top to bottom, OpenBSD-style? 'Cos if you haven't - it is a big piece of software -, well your argument is moot. Some people already pointed out there are times where chromium doesn't cut it, so hey, i bet the VUA wouldn't mind you repackaging chromium for Devuan :) Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] release names
On Sat, Mar 7, 2015 at 6:44 PM, Klaus Hartnegg hartn...@uni-freiburg.de wrote: Nowhere on that page is a version number or a release date, so people not familar with cool have no idea how outdated this might be So let's strive to make better documentation. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] greets
On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 10:44 PM, Hendrik Boom hend...@topoi.pooq.com wrote: until they've been a member What constitutes Devuan membership? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Why daemontools is so cool
On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 12:15 PM, poitr pogo lepo...@gmail.com wrote: S6 even forces such a program must not handle daemon mode itself. That process must not background itself: being run by a supervision tree already makes it a background task. I don't know its innards, but i find it awkward that a program would force, thus prevent another from daemonizing. Can you explain? Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges
On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 9:55 PM, Go Linux goli...@yahoo.com wrote: And why penguins? I think in terms of non-conformity, the platypus makes much more sense. Why? 'Cos us humans and out need for recognizable patterns can't quite classify it :) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 10:42 PM, T.J. Duchene t.j.duch...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 07:25:23 + KatolaZ kato...@freaknet.org wrote: All computer languages are constrained to the physical nature of the processor, so the benefits of one over another are usually really nothing more than syntactic sugar. So what you're saying is that all languages are syntactic sugar over assembly? :) As a counter-argument, I would offer that you can perform any task in C, (with the extremely occasional asm block) that the processor is physically capable of, but the reverse cannot be said of other languages. Fornicate yeah! These languages might be easier to use by those allergic to to lower level ones, but the overhead and inefficiency wastes battery power. Ultimately, the time the programmers might save are spent by the potential thousand users who have wait 5 minutes for the app to run rather than 2 1/2. More and more i see it'll be more work / take longer to implement / be more complex as developer excuses to use more user-friendly languages like java (and less and less developers learning C in college so they're biased). It should be easy for the end-user, definitely; and if it can be easy for the developer as well, cool. Making something less efficient/fast/scalable/ because it's hard...? My uncalled-for €0.02 Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Looking for advices in preparation to switch from Debian to Devuan
On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 1:48 AM, Anto arya...@chello.at wrote: No comment anyone? Actually, i didn't see your first post... For Debian, you could try, as a hack, to install either and older wheezy or squeeze, pin stuff and upgrade. There are also docs laying around for stippping systemd from wheezy to varying degrees of success. For Devuan, it's still in an alpha state. I am not an authority on the matter, but i'd recommend you wait until it's stable before using it in VPSs. HTH, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 2:38 PM, Ста Деюс sthu.d...@openmailbox.org wrote: But, at the first, what is planned to perform to protect «Devuan» from the guys, that got hold of the fantastic project «Debian»? In other words, if the guys come to «Devuan» and by their cruelty will start to «help» some of developers to corrupt the project, do abnormal, unnatural for the project things -- similar like constitution of «Debian» appeared, finnaly the «systemd» was forcibly set up: how we will protect our project? Very good question. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] UEFI secure boot not secure
On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 4:20 PM, Gravis rin...@adaptivetime.com wrote: As recent news has shown, we also need to start writing new firmware for our hard drives. Since so many things have shown to be insecure, the question has becomes if it's worth reverse engineering proprietary systems versus engineering a libre systems from the ground up. That's easy in software, but hardware and firmware doesn't seem as easy. OpenMoko kinda did it, but i don't see big manufacturers lending a hand or you building an SDD in your garage. Reverse engineering seems viable at the moment. Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 8:54 PM, Hendrik Boom hend...@topoi.pooq.com wrote: Unless, of course, we choose to use the band's logo as well... Paul Stanley's tongue... Tux sticking its tongue out... dunno. Anyway will Devuan have release names? I'd go with Calimero for 1.0. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Looking for advices in preparation to switch from Debian to Devuan
On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 7:15 PM, Anto arya...@chello.at wrote: What is not clear to me is that, what will happen to udev or all systemd related packages that are currently required by nginx-extras and php5-fpm for instance? On wheezy i don't see nginx-extras depending on udev or any systemd*. I don't have jessie but i couldn't trace any dependencies on packages.debian.org either. Where did you see these dependencies? Can you apt-rdepend them? The closest i could find was nginx-extras » nginx-common » init-system-helpers but it goes on to perl-base » dpkg » libselinux1 » libpcre3 and that's it. Maybe i missed something in libselinux1? Could you be using a third-party module that may have other dependencies? I didn't check Recommends. Can't say i use the nginx packages much, though, i've been compiling it from source since around 0.7. Back then even Sid was way behind and after 1.0 it (like any other httpd) got bundled into -extras, -full, -light, -whatever that never quite satisfied my needs. I didn't check php5-fpm (i tend to use php5-cgi with some script in - wait for it - /etc/init.d, but i forget which). As to what will happen, again, no authority, but the main goal for Devuan 1.0 is that whatever comes out then, is systemd-free. That includes whichever *dev it ships with (there are a few threads about possible candidates for this role). HTH, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] OT - It may be only one file, but it does point to the bigger problem!
On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 12:57 AM, Noel Torres env...@rolamasao.org wrote: We have RAID tools like mdadm for RAID, and filesystems like ext4 or Reiserfs for file storage. Why would I want a tool combining both? You'd want one so you can, for isntance, avoid a RAID5 write hole. ZFS seems pretty cool, the only downside i see is perhaps more fragmentation that other systems. Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] KDE systemd lock-in
On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: They were specialists in monolithic entanglement when Lennart was in diapers. i'd say any Behemoth DE does that and, like some else said, systemd doing it is just the latest (and most blatant) example of this. Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey
On 02/26/15 10:24, Linuxito wrote: The logo threads are multiplying: it shows the impatience is growing. I disagree. IMHO the logo threads show a lot of users like to chip in with their opinions. No harm there, and no impatience either. I believe rushed things tend to hit fans. Therefore, i'd rather wait longer and have a decent, stable(ish) alpha rather than having a cool looking breakage-prone thing tomorrow. I vote for Release when ready.™ What I'd like to see instead is a focus on a real issue we have, which is shipping desktop background designs. This is not a unique item, so people can have the distro shipped with the background they'd like to use. Isn't that more interesting? Nope. *To me*, it's neither a real issue nor is it interesting and along the same lines i don't give a rat's ass about the logo either (although i obviously do have aesthetic preferences and picked a logo from the poll). Since alpha's gonna ship with a minimalist DE, i'd go with a gradient/solid color background and focus developer time in real issues like removing systemd dependencies. I'd even be cool with no GUI in the alpha release, but i grok and support how a minimalist DE is a good compromise. On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 5:00 PM, Jaromil jaro...@dyne.org wrote: Is likely not going to be the most interesting thing in Devuan, but anyway I wish we tag this process soon with some black and white minimalist design to be used, Prior to recent (at least in Debian) releases, Xorg came with the classic checkered monochrome pattern, i'm cool with that :) (Now it comes with a black background which is really moronic 'cos it leaves me wondering Did --configure barf or is this the root window?). My personal 2¢ Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] rumors on RMS about systemd at libreplanet
On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 6:59 PM, Mark R. White whit...@gmail.com wrote: Just to be clear: I've seen a lot of cross talk about the possibility of systemd being put into Devuan via a sandbox or even having the systemd API written in. Is it safe to assume that going forward that there will be no systemd in Devuan? Because if there is, I'm in the wrong place. +1 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Another reason of why I am considering Devuan
On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 8:52 PM, T.J. Duchene t.j.duch...@gmail.com wrote: DNS calls are nonspecific data, associated only with your carrier's dynamic IP address, not a specific user. Where i come from ISP's dynamic IP lease times are *very* long, you need to reboot the home router to get a new IP and even then you may get the same IP. It's not that dynamic, at all. Add that with data your browser provides, your *.google.com in|direct usage, etc... it's easy to correlate and monetize. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends dependency?
On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 11:36 PM, Franco Lanza next...@nexlab.it wrote: Personally on debian i was using from date APT:Install-Recommends 0; APT:Install-Suggests 0; +1 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Martijn Dekkers devuan-li...@dekkers.org.uk wrote: I know this has come up a few times in the past, but I would really like to see a dev specific list, with some strict dev-only rules. I disagree, this will mean the devs will self-segregate and tend to ignore users. Having both camps in the same list evens each other out. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Claim your power
Please don't feed the trolls. Thank you. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What about pulseaudio, avahi, ... ?
On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 8:25 PM, toto titi voidtothete...@gmail.com wrote: Do you plan to get rid of pulseaudio and avahi as well, or do you just focus on systemd ? (I don't speak for the VUA but, from what i've been reading...) Systemd is perceived as not freedom-friendly, hence the fork. If pulseaudio and/or avahi are similar, in this respect, to systemd then, yes, they may be forked in the future. However, the purpose is not to dePoetterize but to make sure you always have choice: in what init system you want to use, what sound daemon, what zeroconf daemon, what ever, etc. So if you don't like insert software name here, ideally you should be able to replace it with something else without completely crippling your system. Or rather, replacing it would be a no-brainer in Devuan. Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] This has GOT to be an April Fools joke
On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 12:25 PM, Nate Bargmann n...@n0nb.us wrote: Before anyone takes this too seriously a bit more research needs to be done as we are very close to the date that an elaborate ruse is plausible, at least for us in the USA. For the time being, it seems like a joke. At least this time. But, like others said, it wouldn't be a bad thing, let'em taint their own kernel. It would be interesting if Mr Torvalds would block them from using the name linux, but regardless it would keep things separate. Still, a behemoth as Red Hat might be, one does not just simply fork a kernel. Unless of course you join efforts with Google and other Incs, then sure, here be dragons gone. My2c ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?
On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Joerg Reisenweber reisenwe...@web.de wrote: The linux trademark is owned and protected, I think they can't do with linux whatever they want. I believe it's onwn by Mr Torvalds to prevent someone else from clobbering it (like SCO). I don't think he plans to actually leverage that use for anything. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Call for factoids on the Debian fork
One thing that has always bugged me was that Debian was supposed to be *the* distro that runs on just about anything from an embedded system to a supercomputer, from an old dumb terminal or mainframe to a fairly recent laptop (well kinda, drivers etc). It was even one of the reasons the default installer is text-based: it should run over a serial console, etc. Debian supported the most architectures, not just x86 (unfortunately it dropped a few recently). Does systemd even support all this? And what will happen to the ISS[1]? It's saddening. Oh well, hre's Devuan! [1] http://phys.org/news/2013-05-international-space-station-laptop-migration.html On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 9:36 PM, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: On Fri, 03 Apr 2015 19:56:48 -0300 hellekin helle...@dyne.org wrote: Hello dears, one of the current tasks of the Devuan Editors is to gather facts about the Debian fork in order to write a compelling story to be told on debianfork.org. This domain will hopefully be the place to deflect and defuse any troll about the Debian fork and systemd, in order to focus devuan.org on the actual distro work. Any help is welcome to gather original emails, timelines, witness accounts, key people and facts. The objective, I repeat, is to gather facts, not gossip, and not opinions or feelings about systemd. What I want to do is reply to the question: why did Devuan fork Debian? in the most sensible way possible. (Incidentally, how it happened may also be relevant ;o) If you'd like to get involved in the writing process, please idle on #devuan-www on Freenode IRC. Thank you for your attention and for your help. Hi hellekin, Of course, the Debian-User (https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/). Here you can see what's often called the Debian systemd wars, from about 7/1/2014 through the rest of the year. You can get a feel for why people continued to try to force Debian to provide choice, and the feeling of helplessness. The Debian-devel list (https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/) shows the systemd discussions from the start. The CTTE deliberations, which I consider the original crime (but you asked for facts, not opinions), is https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708 At https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/09/msg01367.html , you see Don Armstrong boasting about voting for systemd, and pointing to his vote and explanation. In September 2014, Joel Roth had created a mailing list called Modular-Debian, whose archives are at https://www.freelists.org/archive/modular-debian. Modular-Debian served first as a place where anti-systemd former Debianistas could vent, and then as a design facility for sans-systemd solutions, perhaps a Jessie Without Systemd. By years end Modular-Debian was superceded by Dng, and you'll find a lot of former Modular-Debian people on the Dng list. If anyone knows where to find the Modular-Debian archives, please post it. Throughout late 2014, I (Steve Litt) posted the Manjaro Experiments, proving that systemd could be short circuited by other inits such as runit and Epoch and OpenRC. You can see it at http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/init/manjaro_experiments.htm . The Dng mailing list started in early November, 2014, and quickly replaced Modular-Debian as the Go To place for former Debianistas. Note the famous and historical Don't panic and keep forking Debian™! post (https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20141127.212941.f55acc3a.en.html) to reassure everyone after Ian Jackson's GR rubber stamped systemd. That was the post that got things rolling! Running parallel to all of this was the activity going on in the various non-traditional init mailing lists: * supervis...@list.skarnet.org * several more These people are moving toward making easy to install and admin inits based on daemontools, such as s6, runit, perp, and nosh. They are moving toward a user-easy init script language across several or all of them. Every one of them has a brain the size of Texas. The preceding is what I know/remember about the evolution of Debian-Fork, sans-systemd Debian, etc. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
Oh wait, it wasn't offlist. On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 5:13 AM, Martijn Dekkers devuan-li...@dekkers.org.uk wrote: The «long standing, wide-ranging implementation pattern» thing is a bogus argument. Similar to Lots of people jump of bridges, care to join them? Thats just uninformed bullshit. Patterns are one of the cornerstones of modern computing architecture - without patterns everybody will be doomed to re-invent everything from the ground up. Comparing patterns with bridge-jumping is ridiculous, and not a little bit stupid. Separate lists are widely practiced in the open source community at large because they work, not because everybody else is doing it. Still, convoluted arguments, feeble attempt at insult, does seem like a troll. This discussion has gone from a simple request for a -dev list to a wide ranging discussion about how we can do something similar without actually going for the cheapest and easiest option (which is to have a separate list). Interestingly, I see two broad groups. Those that want a simple dev list, and those that absolutely don't want other people to have one, for the most tenuous of arguments. There's the third camp of people who believes a dev-only list will generate self-segregation, meaning devs will only read that list. This isn't a profecy. Too much noise, i'll stop reading this thread. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
Hi, Just me being picky here. On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 5:35 AM, Martijn Dekkers devuan-li...@dekkers.org.uk wrote: The flip side is those that say don't split the lists - there again is no significant cost to subscribing to both both lists, and follow and participate in both lists if they so wish. It isn't so much a segregation of a community, it is a segregation of topics - and a long standing, wide-ranging implementation pattern in the wider open-source community at that. Maybe i should say self-segregation instead. That's my beef, but as you correctly say, anyone can join any list (and leave it too). The «long standing, wide-ranging implementation pattern» thing is a bogus argument. Similar to Lots of people jump of bridges, care to join them? This isn't the first call for separate lists, so there clearly is a (strong) desire for this from some people. Just because some people called for it, doesn't mean they feel strongly about it. Again, just being picky. Oh, holy devs, i intentionally did not put [DEV] in the subject (a reasonable suggestion if i might add). ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Slackware systemd creepin in maybe?
On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 10:18 PM, James Powell james4...@hotmail.com wrote: Patrick has no intent on enforcing the usage of systemd upon Slackware and it's users unless it becomes an unavoidable issue. Which raises the question: what does Patrick consider to be unavoidable? I thought Debian would run on anything and was immune to bullshit, yet it's been reducing its supported architectures and now is systemd-locked... :( Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Slackware systemd creepin in maybe?
On Sat, May 23, 2015 at 9:59 PM, James Powell james4...@hotmail.com wrote: It's a shame Devuan can't make a bold statement against the kernel itself to not want to buy into Greg Kroah-Hartman's systemdified kdbus future, and try to force the kernel to be forked as well. Let's hope Mr Torvalds has the balls to do what's right. Too much is being poisoned by systemd, and if the UNIX ecosystem of software collapses because of this, who is going to be able and willing to pick up the pieces? There's a UNIX ecosystem? The Linux ecosystem may become strictly commercial and be used to hunt baby seals, but the BSD and Solaris ecosystems are still systemd-free, are they not? My hopes are still on gentoo (which made the sanest decision regarding systemd), slackware (which may or may not resist it - it's all very relative) and LFS, among a few other smaller distros. Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] OT: some ancient programming language history
On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 5:16 PM, Lars Noodén lars.noo...@gmail.com wrote: IIRC the Icon programming language had an exchange operator to swap the contents of two variables. a :=: b C: a = a ^ b; b = a ^ b; a = a ^ b; Much more fun. Them :=: look like weird emoticons. -- On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Ashley Madison hack
You're forgetting SQL injection and XSS, to name a few. Wireshark in a cybercafé pops into mind too plus a gazillion of windows vulnerabilities. I'm placing no bets on Whether-or-not-it-was-systemd and find that discussion moot unless there's any solid details on the hack. Does Devuan keep up to date with known CVEs in its repositories (for apache and what not) would qualify as devual-related and relevant. And i try not to project my a/moral views on others so the fact the site is about adultery is totally irrelevant to me, from a computer-security perspective. But that's just me. Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Ashley Madison hack
On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:45 PM, James Powell james4...@hotmail.com wrote: You'd have to really spoof PAM and fool the IDS to some extent, and you have Firewalls to get past. You're assuming there is an IDS. It may have been via an employee logging in to the company extranet via cybercafé wireless or something... -- On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] greybeards
Hi, On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 7:56 PM, Hendrik Boomwrote: > On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 01:54:37PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: >> On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:57:19 +0300 >> Mitt Green wrote: >> >> > I wonder how many people that use Debian for quite long time (since >> > 90s or the beginning of this millennium) really like systemd, GNOME3 >> > and all these controversial things. I haven't met any. And even more, >> > most "greybeards" that I've seen oppose it. Seems like they don't have >> > a right to vote. I was gonna say "I!" but it's more like since 2000. When i still paid much attention to the list, i.e. before the devs decided to fork themselves into IRC, i always liked reading stuff written by "greybeards". I have heard that term before applied to people like Stallman (well he's not really the best example, but) and to me it has always meant Old Wise Person. So i like reading Mr Bloom's posts. I was unaware the same term can have a derrogatory meaning (english not being my native language) and to those who use it as such i can only point them to this example: http://blog.pluralsight.com/give-me-those-old-time-programmers which illustrates that people and tech may be old, but they're certainly not antique. Shouldn't this be OT? Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] greybeards
On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 4:32 PM, Rainer Weikusatwrote: > (hence, having to recurr to someone who > accidentally made it through the hiring process despite he was > competent). Maybe you meant "incompetent"? Either way, have fun. Bye, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] OT: Degree?
Gee i'm glad the world is united and there are no country-borders. Oh, wait... On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Mitt Greenwrote: > This is offtopic. I'm interested in whether college or university degree > is necessary to work in IT industry (of any kind: admin, embedded systems > developer, driver developer, mobile systems, consulting, hardware etc). It depends on the country, the culture, the specific job and the company. Here, you can do without a degree if you a) have a few years' experience (although quantity is never quality but i'm not the one hiring) or b) you have an interesting portfolio of some kind (you commit a lot to an open source project, you have your own github projects, etc). Or both. If you have none, then a degree is almost mandatory. > > Questions: > 1) Are there many people without degrees in the industry? Mostly older folks i guess. Or helpdesk people. > 2) Which companies (just for examples) don't require it? I'd say government companies do require it, everything else is per-company per-job basis. > 3) Are there any hobbyists around here, that earn some money from coding? Not i. Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free distros Was Re: Distrowatch
On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 6:28 AM, Edward Bartolowrote: > I think, the majority of people opting to use a non-mainstream OS like > GNU/Linux do so for a good reason, and those who use it to look geeky > and to impress, simply cannot persevere when problems crop up and take > a good deal of effort to resolve. Ever heard of Ubuntu? Things magically solve themselves upon next release... or just use their forums, 1 every 10 answers will point you in the right directions. Linux is no longer a command-line hydra to install. The minimum-IT-knowledge bar, for better or for worse, is lowering. Next-next-next-done in a luser-friendly UI is the new paradigm. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Distrowatch
Unfortunately it only allows you to search by package, leaving you with a lot of non-linux and inactive distros - and no ranking. But it's a nice feature. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free distros Was Re: Distrowatch
On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 6:51 PM, Edward Bartolowrote: > Here, you are talking to someone who developed a GRAPHICAL network > manager. You see, I too created an application to help 'clueless' > users. Ubuntu is not the only distribution to help newbies. I tend to make a distinction between clueless and newbie, not just in IT either, but that's just me. Driving vehicles comes to mind with the new self-driven hype. Point remains: most of the "less-tech-savy" users will probably not even know what systemd is, or what the fuss is all about. It's all been seamless, without hitch. The OS boots and gives them a GUI, done. I don't remember saying Devuan is not about choice -- lemme check -- nope, didn't say that. Please quote me directly instead of trying to imply i said something like «thinking Devuan will remove graphical interfaces» -- didn't say that either. There are my opinions, regardless of how many isolated cases you may find to counter. Feel free to disagree. I'm done. This discussion is pointless and fruitless. Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Distrowatch
On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 8:49 AM,wrote: > > It is very unlikely that Gentoo would switch to systemd. I sure hope so, it and slackware are my current distros of choice ever since Debian ceased to be, it's been fun. However, i must point out that Gentoo does have systemd as an option and this, IMHO, is the best approach i've seen so far to this whole conundrum: default OpenRC, optional (if you choose), systemd. Everybody's happy. As for distros that'll never ever change to systemd... look to the past and see what happened. Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Distrowatch
On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 8:23 AM, <miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr> wrote: > On 151105-21:19-0500, Steve Litt wrote: >> On Thu, 5 Nov 2015 21:18:42 + >> Nuno Magalhães <nunomagalh...@eu.ipp.pt> wrote: >> >> > On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 8:49 AM, <miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr> wrote: >> > > >> > > It is very unlikely that Gentoo would switch to systemd. >> > >> > I sure hope so, it and slackware are my current distros of choice ever >> > since Debian ceased to be, it's been fun. >> > However, i must point out that Gentoo does have systemd as an option >> > and this, IMHO, is the best approach i've seen so far to this whole >> > conundrum: default OpenRC, optional (if you choose), systemd. >> > Everybody's happy. ... >> I'd start by booting a System Rescue CD CD, > the Gentoo based Live CD, that is. > >> hopefully booting it to RAM >> so you can remove the CD. > Sure, that's the recommended way... > >> Run it for a couple hours. If you hear any >> beeps, it's hardware. Otherwise it was software and you can start from >> there. I'd say you guys are replying to the wrong thread (the laptop beeping one, not this one?).. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] LXC template
Greetings Is there an LXC template for devuan? Or, has anyone tried modding the one for debian? Is it a drop-in replacement? Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] LXC template
Answering self, using the gentoo template as base: -- MIRROR=${MIRROR:-http://http.debian.net/debian} ++ MIRROR=${MIRROR:-http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/} -- configure_debian_systemd $path $rootfs ++ #configure_debian_systemd $path $rootfs lxc-create -n lxcdev -f /path/to/your/lxc.conf -t /usr/share/lxc/templates/lxc-devuan lxc-start -n lxcdev myuser@lxcdev:~$ ps -ef|head -2 UIDPID PPID C STIME TTY TIME CMD root 1 0 0 14:12 ?00:00:00 /sbin/init Uses about 378M, 135 packages installed. However, i see these in top: root20 1 0 14:12 ?00:00:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-udevd root 128 1 0 14:21 ?00:00:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-journald So it's a work in progress. Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan Constitu..?
Didn't the Debian Constitution ultimately help in screwing that distro up? Or was it some other bureaucratic device? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] How stable is the devuan migration?
Greetings, I have a VPS running whezzy (7.8) which was a little behind updates before systemd hit the fan. It's used as a LAMP stack and i'm wondering how easy would it be to upgrade it to devuan. I had a debian vm laying around and remember i did just that and IIRC it wasn't a big deal. Does anyone have fresh/recent input/tips? TIA, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Are my messages delivered?
On Gmail they're being marked as spam, along with GoLinux's. I weed them out every now and then. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] lilo development has ended
On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 2:44 PM, dev1fanboywrote: > So I assume lilo has stopped development altogether from the last release, > and we can look forward to only having the more complex grub2. Slackware uses lilo by default, maybe someone there will tend to it. Or the IoT crowd. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] How borged is D-bus?
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 1:54 AM, Joel Rothwrote: > Being that > so much complex code is built on dbus, Pottering and co > guarantee that dbus will not be broken by updates in the > protocol. Meh, i don't buy their guarantees. Rephrasing: considering they're focusing on sd-bus, is the borg collective maintaining D-bus? Or is it still "free"? What are the init-inclinations of freedesktop.org? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] How borged is D-bus?
Greetings, Considering the systemd team has been focusing on sd-bus, how systemd-free is dbus? Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Debian is no longer GNU/Linux?
On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 8:25 PM, Hendrik Boomwrote: > A year or two ago they announced they were going to support BSD as > another kernel. IIRC they had previously supported BSD, had they not? -- "On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog." ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Debian is no longer GNU/Linux?
On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 9:01 PM, Mitt Greenwrote: > If you mean ubuntuBSD, it's made by a community. As is a lot of everything else...? -- "On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog." ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng