Re: DOCBOOK: Re: Markup for exercises

[Joachim Ziegler]

Am Freitag, 11. Oktober 2002 18:25 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
> Perhaps these might be useful? (or something similar)...
>
> 
>  ...as in sectioninfo...
>  ...information on what is needed to setup the exercise,
> student data etc...
>  ...
>  ...
>  ...
> 
>


An exercise consists of a problem and eventually its solution(s).

In a course, when it comes to an exercise, I might say "Write a program that 
outputs HELLO WORLD". There is no question/answer involved here.

But a problem may well consist of finding the answer to a given question.

Even if the exercise consists of finding the answer to a question, I do not 
directly ask the question. Instead I say "Find the answer to the following 
question" before.

Therefore s and s should be allowed to appear in  
and , respectively. An  should only be allowed when the 
 has had a . Unfortunately, this dependency is not 
context-free and therefore not expressible in a DTD.

Joachim

Re: DOCBOOK: Re: Markup for exercises

[Togan Muftuoglu]

* [EMAIL PROTECTED]; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 11 Oct, 2002 wrote:
>I tend to agree. Such a structure would be useful to me too.

So far yes

>
>Perhaps these might be useful? (or something similar)...

Yes but every lesson (call it module/section whatever) should also have
 performance requirements (objectives). The way I am thinking is you
have objective (perfomance requirement) which is explained in the
following paragraph(s) and then you have exercise ( Self assesment)
which I agree with the format below  

Normally Performance Requirements are also questions (though you can
pharse them as sentences as long as they are measurable and clear yet
this was an old approach)

ie.


What are the commonly used XSLT tools ?
 


bla bla bla


>
>
> ...as in sectioninfo...
> ...information on what is needed to setup the exercise, 
>student data etc...
> ...
> ...
> ...
>


My reasoning is if Docboook tags will be extended to include the above
then the metodlogy of performance based learning should be included (
objectives) also

Hope I did not make it an extra step


-- 

Togan Muftuoglu

DOCBOOK: Re: New element for Step alternatives?

[Norman Walsh]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

/ Sabine Ocker - Sun Microsystems <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> was heard to say:
|   1. Procedure remains unchanged
|
|  If you need alternatives at the top level, don't you really have
|  different procedures?
|
| Norm, can you please clarify what you mean by this? Are you saying that you 
| think having "choice" ie StepAlternative as a sibling to Step should be 
| marked up as two Procedures?   

Yes, that's what I was thinking. If the very first thing you do is
choose between several alternatives, maybe the right model is to have
several separate procedures.

But maybe not. Allowing stepalternatives as a child of procedure would
be more consistent, perhaps.

Be seeing you,
  norm

- -- 
Norman Walsh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  | If you are hankering after
http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/ | certainty, you are better advised
Chair, DocBook Technical Committee | to seek it in religion: the
   | stock-in-trade of science is not
   | certainty but doubt.--K.C. Cole
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.5.7 

iD8DBQE9pv9+OyltUcwYWjsRAoZEAJ4n9cBc0yO+TH1+jZvTe7NQCAxHPwCfWRtm
fUR8toigog+EFeybquzP5Z0=
=w1Za
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

DOCBOOK: Re: New element for Step alternatives?

[Sabine Ocker - Sun Microsystems]

Norm-
See my comments below. Not sure if they could be considered "new information"
but...

I'm trying to recap where we stand on this proposal.

There seems to be general agreement that it's a good idea.

(^: This makes me happy...

The question is, exactly what should the markup look like?

My favorite combination of proposals so far is:

1. Procedure remains unchanged

   If you need alternatives at the top level, don't you really have
   different procedures?
   
Norm, can you please clarify what you mean by this? Are you saying that you 
think having "choice" ie StepAlternative as a sibling to Step should be 
marked up as two Procedures?   

2. Replace 'substeps' in step with (substeps|stepalternatives)
   Both substeps and stepalternatives contain (step+). For substeps,
   the processing expectation is "choose all, in the specified order".
   For stepalternatives, the processing expectation is "choose exactly   
   one".

   While it's true that an attribute on 'substeps' could be used, that
   seems like too significant a processing expectation to stick in an
   attribute.
   (By that rationale, we could have a  element with an attribute
   to choose between ordered and itemized, but we don't.)

   It's also true that stepalternatives could contain (branch+), but 
   that
   seems unnecessary. Context seems sufficient.
   
Yes, I agree with this. A Branch and a Step are in essense the same.

If anyone has new information, please send it along soon. I expect
we'll consider this proposal next Tuesday.

Thank you,
Sabine  

Re: DOCBOOK: Re: Markup for exercises

[martin . gautier]

>>  I think I like the idea of containment better than ID/IDREF for
>>  associating exercises and solutions.
>> 
>>  Would this work?
>> 
>>
>> ...
>> ...
>>

I tend to agree. Such a structure would be useful to me too.

Perhaps these might be useful? (or something similar)...


 ...as in sectioninfo...
 ...information on what is needed to setup the exercise, 
student data etc...
 ...
 ...
 ...


The effect of  &  could be built manually using 
 &  etc. if such elements were allowed directly in 
 which I think would help fend off the recent list comments 
regarding bloat...

Mart

Re: DOCBOOK: Re: Markup for exercises

[Joachim Ziegler]

Am Freitag, 11. Oktober 2002 18:01 schrieb Norman Walsh:
>
> Would this work?
>
>   
>...
>...
>   
>

I think no. From the tutorial of the Qt GUI library that I've just read:


Try to resize the window. Press the button. If you're running X11, try running 
the program with the -geometry option (e.g. -geometry 100x200+10+20) 


An exercise does not necessarily consist of a question. It can also be a 
request for doing something, especially doing
something with the software or proving some mathematical theorem.

An exercise may have zero, one ore more solutions (for example a standard 
proof and a very clever proof). Strictly speaking, only s can have 
solutions.

Exercises often come in sets, especially at the end of sections.

Joachim

DOCBOOK: Re: Markup for exercises

[Norman Walsh]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

/ Stephan Wiesner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> was heard to say:
| Here is an example:
|
| 
| Take a look at the created file Sample.xml. What do you see? Any
| idea what
| happened? Take a look at the Java API to see how it is supposed to
| look.
| 
|
| 
| A hint: Take a look at the output generated by Tomcat. Why do you
| think
| does that error message appear?
| 

I think I like the idea of containment better than ID/IDREF for
associating exercises and solutions.

Would this work?

  
   ...
   ...
  

Be seeing you,
  norm

- -- 
Norman Walsh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  | Ambition, n. An overmastering
http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/ | desire to be vilified by enemies
Chair, DocBook Technical Committee | while living and ridiculed by
   | friends when dead.--Ambrose Bierce
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.5.7 

iD8DBQE9pvX0OyltUcwYWjsRAp4ZAJ0d90fJnXX1WugdMs6plmNFpUhURACbBW+R
dTJ/YEyV42IJ2uUCIHGYEXc=
=dxbj
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: DOCBOOK: Re: Markup for exercises

[Joachim Ziegler]

Am Freitag, 11. Oktober 2002 17:25 schrieb Stephan Wiesner:
> exercises with the same solution. I then developed a style sheet to
> create documents with the exercises displayed in the text flow and the
> solutions at the end (both linked), or not at all, depending on the
> purpose.

This is exactly what is needed in a class!

1) In the handout you give to your pupils at the beginning of a course, the 
solutions have not to be included because otherwise the pupils will peek at 
it and are prevented from making their own thoughts.

2) But as the teacher, you need a document including the solutions just after 
the exercises they belong to. (You, of course, want to peek.)

3) At the end of the course, the pupils should be handed a copy of all 
solutions to all exercises.

4) If you decide to publish your course as a book, you will want to include 
the solutions in an appendix at the end.

Joachim

RE: DOCBOOK: Re: Markup for exercises

[Stephan Wiesner]

Hi, I used to have exercise and solution elements in with a DTD we
developed at my university for Tutorials.
I could write an exercise with or without solution as well as some
exercises with the same solution. I then developed a style sheet to
create documents with the exercises displayed in the text flow and the
solutions at the end (both linked), or not at all, depending on the
purpose. 
Here is an example:


Take a look at the created file Sample.xml. What do you see? Any
idea what
happened? Take a look at the Java API to see how it is supposed to
look.



A hint: Take a look at the output generated by Tomcat. Why do you
think
does that error message appear?



Stephan

> -Original Message-
> From: Norman Walsh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Freitag, 11. Oktober 2002 17:06
> To: Joachim Ziegler
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; DocBook
> Subject: DOCBOOK: Re: Markup for exercises
> 
> So far, we have requests for markup for exercises. Is other 
> markup required, or is DocBook perfect except that it lacks 
> and  element?
> 
> What are the functional requirements for the exercise 
> element? How do you want to be able to style it?
> 
> Be seeing you,
>   norm
> 
> 

DOCBOOK: Re: New element for Step alternatives?

[Norman Walsh]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

I'm trying to recap where we stand on this proposal.

There seems to be general agreement that it's a good idea. The
question is, exactly what should the markup look like?

My favorite combination of proposals so far is:

1. Procedure remains unchanged

   If you need alternatives at the top level, don't you really have
   different procedures?

2. Replace 'substeps' in step with (substeps|stepalternatives)
   Both substeps and stepalternatives contain (step+). For substeps,
   the processing expectation is "choose all, in the specified order".
   For stepalternatives, the processing expectation is "choose exactly one".

   While it's true that an attribute on 'substeps' could be used, that
   seems like too significant a processing expectation to stick in an attribute.
   (By that rationale, we could have a  element with an attribute
   to choose between ordered and itemized, but we don't.)

   It's also true that stepalternatives could contain (branch+), but that
   seems unnecessary. Context seems sufficient.

If anyone has new information, please send it along soon. I expect
we'll consider this proposal next Tuesday.

Be seeing you,
  norm

- -- 
Norman Walsh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  | Men are not sufficiently perfect
http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/ | to exercise justice in the name of
Chair, DocBook Technical Committee | virtue: the rule of life should be
   | indulgence and kindness of
   | heart.--Anatole France
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.5.7 

iD8DBQE9puwQOyltUcwYWjsRAvqbAJ9CvT9Az6/cZxEyeS03zdGB4RhR/gCdHkr7
ABcO9Se6vV+i3pxuAAlp03w=
=spuL
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

DOCBOOK: Re: Markup for exercises

[Norman Walsh]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

/ Joachim Ziegler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> was heard to say:
| Now I want to change to DocBook (as Docbook is a major subject in this course 
| and as the stylesheets are much more sophisticated than mine). I really miss 
| an exercise-tag, but maybe that's not what DocBook was designed for.

Books about software development would seem to be in scope, and books
with exercises and other course material seem entirely reasonable.

Let's explore the design space a little bit...

So far, we have requests for markup for exercises. Is other markup required,
or is DocBook perfect except that it lacks and  element?

What are the functional requirements for the exercise element? How do
you want to be able to style it?

Be seeing you,
  norm

- -- 
Norman Walsh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  | All our foes are mortal.--Valéry
http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/ | 
Chair, DocBook Technical Committee |
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.5.7 

iD8DBQE9pujgOyltUcwYWjsRAr9uAJ9JgXBK/42o5vglMwkF0eNLq/2T/gCgrdGj
P0rK4AODdFLrXsRncpnWuO4=
=lgwH
-END PGP SIGNATURE-