Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: User guides are not the only choice
Hi :) Ah, i think that engaging with other things "raises awareness" of this team. For example, if the couple of people who are already working on (one of?) the versions of the in-built help felt that there were people here who understood something of what they do then they might join this group and engage more with people here. That sort of chatter might lead to the in-built help being more consistent with the published guides, ie what Peter was talking about. Having people in this team using different tools might mean that new people joining the team find something they can get involved in, that suits their own skill-set. At the moment there is only 1 way of working. If new people don't feel comfortable getting someone to register them at ODFAuthors or feel uncomfortable with any part of working on the guides then there is nothing for them to do except leave, or lurk. Having different ways for people to get involved means people are more likely to be able to join in and then maybe move around within the team until they get comfortable doing something they enjoy. Restrictions tend to lead to greater and greater restrictions ime. Regards from Tom :) On 26 August 2014 15:13, Alex Thurgood wrote: > Le 26/08/2014 13:02, Tom Davies a écrit : > > Tom, > > > It would be great if people from this team could help get the translators > > version into better shape, that might mean less geeky or might be that it > > needs more reviewers. > > > > There already aren't enough people here on the documentation project in > the first place to carry out regular and consistent work here - that is > the point of Jean's other post - how can you legitimately now ask them > to go and help out translating/reviewing the built-in help ? > > > > Alex > > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-documentation] Re: User guides are not the only choice
Le 26/08/2014 13:02, Tom Davies a écrit : Tom, > It would be great if people from this team could help get the translators > version into better shape, that might mean less geeky or might be that it > needs more reviewers. > There already aren't enough people here on the documentation project in the first place to carry out regular and consistent work here - that is the point of Jean's other post - how can you legitimately now ask them to go and help out translating/reviewing the built-in help ? Alex -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: User guides are not the only choice
Hi :) The international translators focus on translating the inbuilt "Help". There are a couple of people working on making that as good as they can get it. So i think that there might be more than 1 English version; the one that gets downloaded and the one the translators use. It would be great if people from this team could help get the translators version into better shape, that might mean less geeky or might be that it needs more reviewers. A very few translator teams are kinda working on translating the guides but it's much lower priority than the in-built help. Regards from Tom :) On 26 August 2014 08:24, PeeWee wrote: > Hello Alex > > I do understand the problem about getting information from developers, > especially after 30 years in technical publications. Maybe one day > developers will understand that they have to help the users actually use > the product, probably when I have finally retired (being a pessimist now). > > Good user guides and good help systems are a benefit to users and would > reduce costs in supporting a product. > > After using Version 4.2 to create the Impress Guide, I think the Help has > improved and does look a little more professional. Not perfect, but a step > in the right direction. > > I have no experience at all in creating help files, so I shall not be > volunteering my services. I am a book person. > > Regards > > PeterS > > On 26 Aug 2014, at 09:06, Alex Thurgood [via Document Foundation Mail > Archive] wrote: > > > Le 26/08/2014 07:58, PeeWee a écrit : > > > > Hi Peter, > > > > > > > > In my opinion, the user guides and Help are the starting point for any > other documentation/information about using LibreOffice. So, anybody who > works on other documentation should check the user guides and Help so that > the information is the same across all documentation. > > > > > > When writing the Impress and Draw Guides, I did check the Help of each > module to make sure that information was reasonably consistent. It is not > perfect and could be improved. > > > > > > > The problem with relying on the built-in Help is that it is either > > wrong, obsolete, or incomplete, especially where new features are > > concerned. > > > > Currently, writing help files for the built-in Help system is an utter > > nightmare, and involves being knowledgable in, and having the time to, > > wade through a vary unwieldy set of XML conventions. The end result is > > that no one wants to edit the Help files to keep them up to date. > > Additionally, we encounter the well known phenonemon of developer > > reticence about explaining how to actually use the new feature for which > > they've just coded. Getting developers to provide meaningful code > > comments is hard enough, because each has their own view on how much any > > given other developer should be capable of understanding. None, as far > > as I know (and I'm prepared to stand corrected), other than those > > working on the Help system itself, have ever written an XML help file > > for the built-in Help system. > > > > All of this makes it very hard to write accurate, up to date user > > documentation, but the problem in itself isn't new, merely exacerbated > > by the frenetic pace of development. > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email] > > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ > > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > > > > > > > > If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion > below: > > > http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/User-guides-are-not-the-only-choice-tp4120242p4120266.html > > To start a new topic under Documentation, email > ml-node+s969070n1645240...@n3.nabble.com > > To unsubscribe from Documentation, click here. > > NAML > > > > > > - > Peter Schofield > psaut...@libreoffice.org > -- > View this message in context: > http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/User-guides-are-not-the-only-choice-tp4120242p4120271.html > Sent from the Documentation mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list
[libreoffice-documentation] Re: Draw Guide Version 4.3
Hello Correction to the Draw Guide Preface (Chap 00) is now in the Drafts LO4.3 folder on the ODF Authors website. The correction was to the licensing details for LO. http://www.odfauthors.org/libreoffice/english/draw-guide/draft-lo-4.3/dg-lo4-3-chap-00-preface/view Regards PeterS - Peter Schofield psaut...@libreoffice.org -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Draw-Guide-Version-4-3-tp4120004p4120272.html Sent from the Documentation mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-documentation] Re: User guides are not the only choice
Hello Alex I do understand the problem about getting information from developers, especially after 30 years in technical publications. Maybe one day developers will understand that they have to help the users actually use the product, probably when I have finally retired (being a pessimist now). Good user guides and good help systems are a benefit to users and would reduce costs in supporting a product. After using Version 4.2 to create the Impress Guide, I think the Help has improved and does look a little more professional. Not perfect, but a step in the right direction. I have no experience at all in creating help files, so I shall not be volunteering my services. I am a book person. Regards PeterS On 26 Aug 2014, at 09:06, Alex Thurgood [via Document Foundation Mail Archive] wrote: > Le 26/08/2014 07:58, PeeWee a écrit : > > Hi Peter, > > > > > In my opinion, the user guides and Help are the starting point for any > > other documentation/information about using LibreOffice. So, anybody who > > works on other documentation should check the user guides and Help so that > > the information is the same across all documentation. > > > > When writing the Impress and Draw Guides, I did check the Help of each > > module to make sure that information was reasonably consistent. It is not > > perfect and could be improved. > > > > The problem with relying on the built-in Help is that it is either > wrong, obsolete, or incomplete, especially where new features are > concerned. > > Currently, writing help files for the built-in Help system is an utter > nightmare, and involves being knowledgable in, and having the time to, > wade through a vary unwieldy set of XML conventions. The end result is > that no one wants to edit the Help files to keep them up to date. > Additionally, we encounter the well known phenonemon of developer > reticence about explaining how to actually use the new feature for which > they've just coded. Getting developers to provide meaningful code > comments is hard enough, because each has their own view on how much any > given other developer should be capable of understanding. None, as far > as I know (and I'm prepared to stand corrected), other than those > working on the Help system itself, have ever written an XML help file > for the built-in Help system. > > All of this makes it very hard to write accurate, up to date user > documentation, but the problem in itself isn't new, merely exacerbated > by the frenetic pace of development. > > > Alex > > > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: [hidden email] > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > > > > If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion > below: > http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/User-guides-are-not-the-only-choice-tp4120242p4120266.html > To start a new topic under Documentation, email > ml-node+s969070n1645240...@n3.nabble.com > To unsubscribe from Documentation, click here. > NAML - Peter Schofield psaut...@libreoffice.org -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/User-guides-are-not-the-only-choice-tp4120242p4120271.html Sent from the Documentation mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-documentation] Re: Coordination, mentoring, etc
Le 26/08/2014 02:49, Jean Weber a écrit : Hi Jean, > > I'm not at all sure that would help enough, because we would still > need people who have both the time and knowledge to do the actual > work. Our problem, AFAICT, has not been in attracting volunteers. The > problem is attracting -- and keeping -- the right volunteers: that is, > people with the time and knowledge. I agree. Volunteers need both time and continued enthusiasm - I have little time, and my own personal enthusiasm for writing/translating documentation has waned as I have seen that it is impossible to keep up with the pace of development and/or the new bugs that are introduced as a result of that development. Ultimately, how one feels about the quality of a product affects one's enthusiasm to write stuff about it. This has caused me to focus on working on QA, rather than documentation - after all, if the product doesn't work as intended, why not try and get it fixed (sometimes a vain hope) rather than attempt to write documentation which, when released, will essentially/probably be out of date and/or inaccurate ? By the way, this is not a plug to draw people from the doc project to QA, just my personal experience ! Documentation needs a solid base from which to work - IMO, this means that the software shouldn't be changing its product characteristics and features every 6 months (or less) - if you don't have that, the efforts that go into creating and maintaining documentation for the product imply relying on a massive documenter group to keep up and currently, the LO documentation project doesn't have that critical mass. Alex -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-documentation] Re: User guides are not the only choice
Le 26/08/2014 07:58, PeeWee a écrit : Hi Peter, > > In my opinion, the user guides and Help are the starting point for any other > documentation/information about using LibreOffice. So, anybody who works on > other documentation should check the user guides and Help so that the > information is the same across all documentation. > > When writing the Impress and Draw Guides, I did check the Help of each module > to make sure that information was reasonably consistent. It is not perfect > and could be improved. > The problem with relying on the built-in Help is that it is either wrong, obsolete, or incomplete, especially where new features are concerned. Currently, writing help files for the built-in Help system is an utter nightmare, and involves being knowledgable in, and having the time to, wade through a vary unwieldy set of XML conventions. The end result is that no one wants to edit the Help files to keep them up to date. Additionally, we encounter the well known phenonemon of developer reticence about explaining how to actually use the new feature for which they've just coded. Getting developers to provide meaningful code comments is hard enough, because each has their own view on how much any given other developer should be capable of understanding. None, as far as I know (and I'm prepared to stand corrected), other than those working on the Help system itself, have ever written an XML help file for the built-in Help system. All of this makes it very hard to write accurate, up to date user documentation, but the problem in itself isn't new, merely exacerbated by the frenetic pace of development. Alex -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: documentation+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
