Re: [PSES] Wireless Telephone and Wireless Internet Clash

[Ed Price]

Scott:

My first guess would be that your phone is desensitizing the receiver in the
modem in your tree. Since you have found interaction between your phone and
the data link, you could either get a phone on a different frequency
(further away from the 900 MHz link), or you could try to improves the
link's RF budget.

Do you really need the link in the tree? Could you get by with less coax and
put the antenna on the peak of your roof? And maybe then the antenna won't
have to look through wet foliage too? Less problems from squirrels and birds
too.

Ed Price
El Cajon, CA
USA
 
-Original Message-
From: Scott Douglas [mailto:sdoug...@radiusnorth.net] 
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 7:57 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Wireless Telephone and Wireless Internet Clash

Hello All,

We have a situation in our house. Two years ago our cable system went
Chapter 7. So we signed up with an ISP that provides a wireless Internet
connection. Radio and antenna are 40 feet up in the big tree out front of
the house and operates at 915 MHz. The radio is connected to our router (in
the basement wiring cabinet) via shielded CAT-5. The house is wired with
CAT-5 in every room and all terminate at the wiring cabinet. 
The external power supply feeding power to the radio (POE) is located in the
basement wiring cabinet right next to the routers EPS.

We regularly have Internet problems, losing connection, extremely slow
transfer rates, etc. It seems particularly bad between 6 and 10 pm (usually
a few hours in that block of time). It is pretty consistent (almost daily).
Our ISP pings every radio in the system every 15 seconds and plots the
return time. Normally we run in the 10 to 20 msec range. 
But when it goes bad, ping times can exceed 3-5 SECONDS! Or sometimes it
just cannot talk at all. Our radio power levels are always quite strong
(-59 to -63 dBm), even when we cannot ping or pass data. The ISP compares my
return response to another radio less than a mile away from me. Theirs is
always rock steady, nary a ping over 30 msec. He showed me plots of both
radio power levels and ping response times and it is very clear to me that
my system is falling down a lot, to the point of not even being able to use
it.

The router is only a year old, the laptop is only 3 months old. We had these
same problems with the old router and the old desktop too. The mains wiring
is all less than 10 years old and mechanically screwed down rather than
stripped and poked into the outlet, etc. I even went around to check
connections and tightened some loose screws in the old part of the house two
years ago. When I wired the house, I took extra care to keep good routing
and separation of AC, CAT-5, and RF. All network and RF connectors are good
quality and poor crimp connections were not tolerated. Everything is tight
and in good order.

The ISP says it is not the radio, but somehow the data is getting hosed
before it can be modulated onto the carrier. He thinks it is something in my
house causing the problem. He said he has seen problems before with wireless
telephones, Blackberry's, motion detectors, and some other things. We do
have a 900 MHz wireless telephone that is 5-7 years old. 
After my most recent conversation with the ISP, I decided to disconnect the
900 MHz wireless phone. I had not told the ISP and tonight he emailed me and
asked what we had done. He said the system graphs had improved dramatically.
Next week we are going to plug the phone back in and see if the problem
repeats.

My question(s) to the list are how do you explain this? Is it radiated as in
two radios beating against each other or your more normal radiated EMI
getting in the system hardware? Is it conducted on the mains or the network
wiring? Where is the ingress occurring? Can the phone make enough EMI to
trash the data getting into the radio? I will also be looking for a solution
(besides trashing the phone).

I have my ideas and opinions but will hold those for now. As always, I will
be looking forward to the interesting comments, ideas, and solutions that
come from you all.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Best,
Scott

-

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-

Re: [PSES] Antenna Pattern for 2.4 GHz and 5GHz

[Ed Price]

Chris:

 

I would be very careful about the physical and electrical setup of the access 
point. Although you could feed the access point’s antennas with a low-level CW 
signal from a signal generator, I think that the coax cables (even if you use 
very small diameter and very flexible coax) will have nasty effects on the 
antenna patterns. I would try to not use any external devices, but rather use 
the real signal from the access point’s intentional radiators.

 

Now, I’m imagining this “access point” to be like a conventional wireless 
router, so it will have perhaps an unshielded Ethernet cable and a 2-wire small 
DC power cable from a wall-wart power pack. Yep, these cables will also have 
effects on your antenna patterns, so you will have to define a cable 
positioning protocol and make sure the cables don’t move around when the access 
point is being rotated around its axes.

 

I’m also imagining the access point will probably not have nice isolation of 
its antennas from the rest of the access point (that is, plastic cases and 
antenna stalks that may have multiple angles of deployment). Let’s at least 
hope that the case doesn’t flex or twist as the access point is rotated through 
your measurement arc. And I assume that you only want to measure with matched 
polarizations.

 

If all goes well, an ordinary spectrum analyzer can be used to monitor the 
amplitude. You can start with the access point sitting on a plastic tripod, and 
do a measurement cut 360 degrees around the Z axis. Then, you tilt by maybe 18 
degrees on the X axis, and then do another 360 degree cut around the Z axis. 
You can do this by walking into your test chamber and just manually moving the 
tripod, but be very careful to not move anything else. Obviously, an automated 
antenna range is best, but you can substitute time for facilities.

 

BTW, sometimes you might get better amplitude readings by setting the spectrum 
analyzer to zero-span and using video triggering. Also, I would prefer using a 
very directional measurement antenna, like a horn, so that I didn’t have to 
worry about sidelobe responses from a typical Biconical or Yagi.

 

You can also spend a lot of time playing with varying positions of cables 
connected to the access point. If you are conservative, you might want to use 
the position that gives you the worst gain. OTOH, if you intend to depend on 
that FCC style wording (move everything around until something finally works 
better), then maybe you will want to use the best performance positioning 
combination.

 

If you have two or three intentional RF emitters running at the same time, so 
long as none overload your spectrum analyzer, then you can do multiple 
measurements at multiple frequencies each time you move the physical position 
by one increment. Be prepared with a nice matrix to keep you from getting 
confused about what angle of which cut and which frequency you are measuring. I 
have done one frequency with several cuts in a half-day, so if you have two 
frequencies and want relatively fine data increments, then a couple of days 
sounds reasonable. 

 

Ed Price

El Cajon, CA

USA

 

From: Christopher [mailto:cksal...@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 1:23 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Antenna Pattern for 2.4 GHz and 5GHz

 

Folks,

 

I would like to get the antenna patterns for our 802.11 Access point Antenna's.

I am looking for a Test lab in Bay Area (preferably) that has the facility to 
provide antenna patterns and schedule some days of test time (that is my 
estimate, but, we may need more/less depending on various factors).   

 

For each AP, a signal generator is connected to the antenna’s and the unit I 
rotated in one axis and then turned and rotated is the other axis to get the 
antenna pattern at the receiving antenna.  

I think in MIMO all the antenna’s may be energized simultaneously?.   

 

Any help in this regard is appreceiated.

 

regards

 

 

Christopher

408-470-4915

www.Aerohive.com

 

 

 

   

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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discu

Re: [PSES] Wireless Telephone and Wireless Internet Clash

[IBM Ken]

Sounds like a simple fix; get a 2.4ghz or 5.8ghz cordless or 1.9ghz DECT phone.
-Ken

On 2/23/12, Scott Douglas  wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> We have a situation in our house. Two years ago our cable system went
> Chapter 7. So we signed up with an ISP that provides a wireless Internet
> connection. Radio and antenna are 40 feet up in the big tree out front
> of the house and operates at 915 MHz. The radio is connected to our
> router (in the basement wiring cabinet) via shielded CAT-5. The house is
> wired with CAT-5 in every room and all terminate at the wiring cabinet.
> The external power supply feeding power to the radio (POE) is located in
> the basement wiring cabinet right next to the routers EPS.
>
> We regularly have Internet problems, losing connection, extremely slow
> transfer rates, etc. It seems particularly bad between 6 and 10 pm
> (usually a few hours in that block of time). It is pretty consistent
> (almost daily). Our ISP pings every radio in the system every 15 seconds
> and plots the return time. Normally we run in the 10 to 20 msec range.
> But when it goes bad, ping times can exceed 3-5 SECONDS! Or sometimes it
> just cannot talk at all. Our radio power levels are always quite strong
> (-59 to -63 dBm), even when we cannot ping or pass data. The ISP
> compares my return response to another radio less than a mile away from
> me. Theirs is always rock steady, nary a ping over 30 msec. He showed me
> plots of both radio power levels and ping response times and it is very
> clear to me that my system is falling down a lot, to the point of not
> even being able to use it.
>
> The router is only a year old, the laptop is only 3 months old. We had
> these same problems with the old router and the old desktop too. The
> mains wiring is all less than 10 years old and mechanically screwed down
> rather than stripped and poked into the outlet, etc. I even went around
> to check connections and tightened some loose screws in the old part of
> the house two years ago. When I wired the house, I took extra care to
> keep good routing and separation of AC, CAT-5, and RF. All network and
> RF connectors are good quality and poor crimp connections were not
> tolerated. Everything is tight and in good order.
>
> The ISP says it is not the radio, but somehow the data is getting hosed
> before it can be modulated onto the carrier. He thinks it is something
> in my house causing the problem. He said he has seen problems before
> with wireless telephones, Blackberry's, motion detectors, and some other
> things. We do have a 900 MHz wireless telephone that is 5-7 years old.
> After my most recent conversation with the ISP, I decided to disconnect
> the 900 MHz wireless phone. I had not told the ISP and tonight he
> emailed me and asked what we had done. He said the system graphs had
> improved dramatically. Next week we are going to plug the phone back in
> and see if the problem repeats.
>
> My question(s) to the list are how do you explain this? Is it radiated
> as in two radios beating against each other or your more normal radiated
> EMI getting in the system hardware? Is it conducted on the mains or the
> network wiring? Where is the ingress occurring? Can the phone make
> enough EMI to trash the data getting into the radio? I will also be
> looking for a solution (besides trashing the phone).
>
> I have my ideas and opinions but will hold those for now. As always, I
> will be looking forward to the interesting comments, ideas, and
> solutions that come from you all.
>
> Thanks in advance for your replies.
>
> Best,
> Scott
>
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
> 
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher:  
> David Heald: 
>

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[PSES] UL to Propose Suspension Withdrawal of UL 6500

[Scott Douglas]

To the List,

For those of you with legacy A/V products certified to UL 6500, this may 
be welcome news. I learned in a phone call from UL today that a proposal 
to suspend the withdrawal of UL 6500 (and maybe some other standards 
too) will be mailed out to their clients in the next week or so. UL 6500 
was planned to be withdrawn May 1, 2012. As I understand it, they will 
propose to suspend that withdrawal and to allow new product to continue 
to be certified to UL 6500 until May 1, 2013. Clients will have four 
weeks to provide UL comments. After that time, UL will have to decide if 
they actually suspend the withdrawal or not. Clients should look for 
that letter from UL soon.


Regards,
Scott

-

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[PSES] Wireless Telephone and Wireless Internet Clash

[Scott Douglas]

Hello All,

We have a situation in our house. Two years ago our cable system went 
Chapter 7. So we signed up with an ISP that provides a wireless Internet 
connection. Radio and antenna are 40 feet up in the big tree out front 
of the house and operates at 915 MHz. The radio is connected to our 
router (in the basement wiring cabinet) via shielded CAT-5. The house is 
wired with CAT-5 in every room and all terminate at the wiring cabinet. 
The external power supply feeding power to the radio (POE) is located in 
the basement wiring cabinet right next to the routers EPS.


We regularly have Internet problems, losing connection, extremely slow 
transfer rates, etc. It seems particularly bad between 6 and 10 pm 
(usually a few hours in that block of time). It is pretty consistent 
(almost daily). Our ISP pings every radio in the system every 15 seconds 
and plots the return time. Normally we run in the 10 to 20 msec range. 
But when it goes bad, ping times can exceed 3-5 SECONDS! Or sometimes it 
just cannot talk at all. Our radio power levels are always quite strong 
(-59 to -63 dBm), even when we cannot ping or pass data. The ISP 
compares my return response to another radio less than a mile away from 
me. Theirs is always rock steady, nary a ping over 30 msec. He showed me 
plots of both radio power levels and ping response times and it is very 
clear to me that my system is falling down a lot, to the point of not 
even being able to use it.


The router is only a year old, the laptop is only 3 months old. We had 
these same problems with the old router and the old desktop too. The 
mains wiring is all less than 10 years old and mechanically screwed down 
rather than stripped and poked into the outlet, etc. I even went around 
to check connections and tightened some loose screws in the old part of 
the house two years ago. When I wired the house, I took extra care to 
keep good routing and separation of AC, CAT-5, and RF. All network and 
RF connectors are good quality and poor crimp connections were not 
tolerated. Everything is tight and in good order.


The ISP says it is not the radio, but somehow the data is getting hosed 
before it can be modulated onto the carrier. He thinks it is something 
in my house causing the problem. He said he has seen problems before 
with wireless telephones, Blackberry's, motion detectors, and some other 
things. We do have a 900 MHz wireless telephone that is 5-7 years old. 
After my most recent conversation with the ISP, I decided to disconnect 
the 900 MHz wireless phone. I had not told the ISP and tonight he 
emailed me and asked what we had done. He said the system graphs had 
improved dramatically. Next week we are going to plug the phone back in 
and see if the problem repeats.


My question(s) to the list are how do you explain this? Is it radiated 
as in two radios beating against each other or your more normal radiated 
EMI getting in the system hardware? Is it conducted on the mains or the 
network wiring? Where is the ingress occurring? Can the phone make 
enough EMI to trash the data getting into the radio? I will also be 
looking for a solution (besides trashing the phone).


I have my ideas and opinions but will hold those for now. As always, I 
will be looking forward to the interesting comments, ideas, and 
solutions that come from you all.


Thanks in advance for your replies.

Best,
Scott

-

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Re: [PSES] Antenna Pattern for 2.4 GHz and 5GHz

[Thomas Cokenias]

Hi Christopher

Check with UL CCS in Fremont, they have two antenna pattern test chambers.

www.ccsemc.com

Good luck,

best regards

Tom

On Feb 23, 2012, at 1:22 PM, Christopher wrote:

> Folks,
>  
> I would like to get the antenna patterns for our 802.11 Access point 
> Antenna's.
> I am looking for a Test lab in Bay Area (preferably) that has the facility to 
> provide antenna patterns and schedule some days of test time (that is my 
> estimate, but, we may need more/less depending on various factors).   
>  
> For each AP, a signal generator is connected to the antenna’s and the unit I 
> rotated in one axis and then turned and rotated is the other axis to get the 
> antenna pattern at the receiving antenna. 
> I think in MIMO all the antenna’s may be energized simultaneously?.  
>  
> Any help in this regard is appreceiated.
>  
> regards
>  
>  
> Christopher
> 408-470-4915
> www.Aerohive.com
>  
>  
>  
>   
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
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> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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> formats), large files, etc.
> 
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> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
> 
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
> 
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher 
> David Heald 
> 


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[PSES] Antenna Pattern for 2.4 GHz and 5GHz

[Christopher]

Folks,
 
I would like to get the antenna patterns for our 802.11 Access point Antenna's.
I am looking for a Test lab in Bay Area (preferably) that has the
facility to provide antenna patterns and schedule some days of test time (that 
is my
estimate, but, we may need more/less depending on various factors). 
 
 
For each AP, a signal generator is connected to the
antenna’s and the unit I rotated in one axis and then turned and rotated is the
other axis to get the antenna pattern at the receiving antenna.  
I think
in MIMO all the antenna’s may be energized simultaneously?.   
 
Any help in this regard is appreceiated.
 
regards
 
 
Christopher
408-470-4915
www.Aerohive.com

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Re: [PSES] EU - Medical device also used in homes

[John Woodgate]

In message 
, 
dated Thu, 23 Feb 2012, Carl Newton  writes:


At issue, however, is whether or not MDD, LVDD, and EMCD should be 
applied on one DoC.  I received one off-line reply from a very 
reputable member source that believes that there should be two model 
numbers with separate DoCs.  This has to be considered.  I would 
appreciate any opinions on this matter.


Yes, to properly control engineering changes (and perhaps changes to 
standards), you would be well-advised to have two model numbers and 
DoCs.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
If 'QWERTY' is an English keyboard, what language is 'WYSIWYG' for?

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Re: [PSES] EU - Medical device also used in homes

[Carl Newton]

Medical devices are excluded from the scope of the EMCD per article 1(4)
and MDD article 1(7) .  Also, EN 60601-1-2, clause 5.2.2.9 a) addresses
medical equipment that has no essential performance.  Documentation must
state that immunity testing was not performed if this is the case.

I've concluded that the LVDD and EMCD should be applied to this device
because it can also be sold to commercial fitness centers.

At issue, however, is whether or not MDD, LVDD, and EMCD should be applied
on one DoC.  I received one off-line reply from a very reputable member
source that believes that there should be two model numbers with separate
DoCs.  This has to be considered.  I would appreciate any opinions on this
matter.

Thanks very much for all replies

Carl
On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 9:20 AM, John Woodgate  wrote:

> In message  gmail.com >, dated Thu, 23 Feb
> 2012, Carl Newton  writes:
>
>  Should the General Product Safety Directive also be applied?  If so, then
>> that would mean that the EMC Directive would also be applied.  The DoC
>> would state compliance with all three.
>>
>
> I think that the EMC Directive applies whether or not the GPS does. I
> don't see any grounds for exemption.
> --
> OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
> John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
> If 'QWERTY' is an English keyboard, what language is 'WYSIWYG' for?
>
>
> -
> --**--**
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> emc-p...@ieee.org>
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>
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>  be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
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Re: [PSES] EU - Medical device also used in homes

[John Woodgate]

In message 
, 
dated Thu, 23 Feb 2012, Carl Newton  writes:


Should the General Product Safety Directive also be applied?  If so, 
then that would mean that the EMC Directive would also be applied.  The 
DoC would state compliance with all three.  


I think that the EMC Directive applies whether or not the GPS does. I 
don't see any grounds for exemption.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK
If 'QWERTY' is an English keyboard, what language is 'WYSIWYG' for?

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[PSES] EU - Medical device also used in homes

[Carl Newton]

Members,

I'm seeking opinions regarding the application of EU Directives for a
device that is primarily intended for use as a medical device within
physical therapy clinics and hospitals.  It's clear that the MDD applies to
the device and a reputable Authorized Representative company has already
accepted the device and registered it within the EU.  It is a very high-end
and expensive exercise machine that is also offered for sale to home users
(secondary market).

Should the General Product Safety Directive also be applied?  If so, then
that would mean that the EMC Directive would also be applied.  The DoC
would state compliance with all three.

I don't want to cloud this post with too much detail, but because it is
declared not to have an 'essential performance', EMC immunity is not
required per EN 60601-1-2.  Only emissions.  It's doesn't seem acceptable
to market an electrical device to home users that hasn't had EMC immunity
testing applied.

Thanks in advance,

Carl

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