Re: Any up to date comparisons of Word and Frame
Framers: I may be off the mark here, but I didn't notice that anyone has made this suggestion to Ian: Work in Frame and convert to RTF for your Word compatriots using MIF2Go. Granted, the output is not DOC files, and the book file doesn't get converted. I haven't as yet tried to recreate a book in Word after such a conversion, but have only made use of individual files. But maybe this isn't necessary for Mr. Saunders. At any rate, just a thought. ~ Don Spencer ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Any up to date comparisons of Word and Frame
Your millage may vary. I found that I could get it to work, but it would blow up, either on me at a future date, or on someone else when they opened the file, and I would have to go and fix it. Scott Jon Harvey wrote: > I don't use the latest version of Word but Word 2003 had a pretty good, > and reliable autonumbering method. Unfortunately, you had to know how to > fumble through the poorly designed interface and even more poorly > documented method for setting it up. I used it to successfully create a > numbering scheme that was six levels deep (X.X.X.X.X.X) with figures and > tables in a guide that was more than 150 pages. I was also able to > revise the guide and the numbering would automatically update for me. > > I'll be the first on this list to say that Microsoft's approach to > autonumbering is absolutely screwy; but, at least it did work in Word > 2003. > > > Jon Harvey > Manager, Desktop Documentation > CambridgeSoft Corporation > 100 CambridgePark Drive > Cambridge, MA 02140 > (617) 588-9354 > -Original Message- > From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com > [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of > qui...@airmail.net > Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 1:22 PM > To: generic...@yahoo.ca > Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com; Martinek, Carla; Saunders, Ian > Subject: Re: Any up to date comparisons of Word and Frame > > I have used Word 2007. They tried to fix what wasn't broken. And no, > they didn't fix either the numbering system or multi-file operations. > It's still oriented toward smaller documents with less complexity. > > I also would avoid it for any XML work. My preference, but their past > history of munging HTML files in export doesn't inspire trust. > > Their new GUI isn't intuitive, The use of icons isn't effective as they > don't describe all things for all people. There is a very steep learning > > curve, and a lot of frustration. Since they don't use menus you can't > refer to things easily for keyboard access to dialogs. You basically > have to find MS's own help listing of keyboard equivalents, and then > memorize them. It's not user friendly. > > Scott > > ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Any up to date comparisons of Word and Frame
I also agree. I have a client, that despite everything I have ever demonstrated, tabulated, kept track of, etc. is insistent that I do all original development in Word and yep, I have shown/demonstrated unequivocally that things can take up to 30% longer to accomplish. Many, many times, I fix "A" don't even touch "B" and go in after the fix to find now that "B" is totally hosed for no apparent reason other than Word felt like crashing/mucking up again. I know more workarounds in Word to force it to do what I need/want than actually know how to use it the way it is "supposed" to work and that's a big "supposed." As for 2007 - I agree about how non-intuitive the ribbons are, which just adds to the time. Finding a command that was once one click, maybe two clicks at most is now three to four, if it's even where you would expect to find it, is the norm with this blasted ribbon. My two cents worth, TVB Tammy Van Boening Owner/Principal Spectrum Writing, LLC www.spectrumwritingllc.com -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Writer Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 11:09 AM To: Saunders, Ian; framers@lists.frameusers.com; Martinek, Carla Subject: RE: Any up to date comparisons of Word and Frame I have to agree with Carla on this point. Although, I'm tempted to amend her statement to say "it would take AT LEAST 25-30% longer". I haven't used the most recent version of Word either, but I'm sure if things had improved, I'd have heard about it through the grapevine. Nadine --- On Thu, 4/9/09, Martinek, Carla wrote: > I can make it work in Word, but I can guarantee it will take more time as you are continually "fixing" things that shouldn't have had issues to start with. I estimate that Word docs take 25-30% longer just because of the inherent issues. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as spectrumwrit...@q.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/spectrumwriting%40q.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Any up to date comparisons of Word and Frame
I don't use the latest version of Word but Word 2003 had a pretty good, and reliable autonumbering method. Unfortunately, you had to know how to fumble through the poorly designed interface and even more poorly documented method for setting it up. I used it to successfully create a numbering scheme that was six levels deep (X.X.X.X.X.X) with figures and tables in a guide that was more than 150 pages. I was also able to revise the guide and the numbering would automatically update for me. I'll be the first on this list to say that Microsoft's approach to autonumbering is absolutely screwy; but, at least it did work in Word 2003. Jon Harvey Manager, Desktop Documentation CambridgeSoft Corporation 100 CambridgePark Drive Cambridge, MA 02140 (617) 588-9354 -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of qui...@airmail.net Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 1:22 PM To: generic...@yahoo.ca Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com; Martinek, Carla; Saunders, Ian Subject: Re: Any up to date comparisons of Word and Frame I have used Word 2007. They tried to fix what wasn't broken. And no, they didn't fix either the numbering system or multi-file operations. It's still oriented toward smaller documents with less complexity. I also would avoid it for any XML work. My preference, but their past history of munging HTML files in export doesn't inspire trust. Their new GUI isn't intuitive, The use of icons isn't effective as they don't describe all things for all people. There is a very steep learning curve, and a lot of frustration. Since they don't use menus you can't refer to things easily for keyboard access to dialogs. You basically have to find MS's own help listing of keyboard equivalents, and then memorize them. It's not user friendly. Scott Writer wrote: > I have to agree with Carla on this point. Although, I'm tempted to amend her statement to say "it would take AT LEAST 25-30% longer". I haven't used the most recent version of Word either, but I'm sure if things had improved, I'd have heard about it through the grapevine. > > Nadine > > > --- On Thu, 4/9/09, Martinek, Carla wrote: > > >> I can make it work in Word, but I can guarantee it will take more time as you are continually "fixing" things that shouldn't have had issues to start with. I estimate that Word docs take 25-30% longer just because of the inherent issues. >> > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to Framers as qui...@airmail.net. > > Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com > or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/quills%40airmail.net > > Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. > > > ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as jhar...@cambridgesoft.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/jharvey%40cambridges oft.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Any up to date comparisons of Word and Frame
As the writer states in this post: "It all comes down to this: FrameMaker is a very mature and solid product that can handle structural complexity very well." http://www.technicalcommunicationcenter.com/2009/02/08/which-text-editor -to-use-for-technical-writing-adobe-framemaker-or-microsoft-word/ An anecdote: I have over 30 years in the tech trade and consider myself to be adept. In my current position, I was assigned a new "book" authored in Word and saved as an RTF to convert to FrameMaker. That was in September 2007. I still occasionally discover some obscure, Microsoft-specific wonkiness deeply embedded in my converted files. You mention "(... half my company's docs are written using Word)." IMHO, Word may be the correct authoring tool for many short documents. Word is not, however, an appropriate authoring tool for sets of documentation that may span many chapters, require periodic revisions, and be targeted for production-quality end use...regards, Kelly. -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Saunders, Ian Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 2:27 AM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Any up to date comparisons of Word and Frame Hi, I am a fanatical Frame user but it looks as though I am going to have to convert my docs to Word (long story, but half my company's docs are written using Word). I know this question comes up time after time, but most responses refer to old reviews and comparisons (though probably the only ones that exist on the web). I work well and efficiently in Frame, and know exactly what it can and can't do. I enjoy using it. I am scared that working in Word will be less efficient, more frustrating, and that it will crash and screw up my documents. Can anyone provide or point me to an up to date comparison of Frame 8 or 9 vs Word 2007 (or later?). I know this is hard because very few folks use both tools extensively and know what each is capable of. Frame fans say that Word sucks, and Word fans say it doesn't. Tit for tat. Is Word's multifile functionality still broken? Does it produce hyperlinked index entries by default. Does the latest Word have any serious problems or deficiencies, and which Frame functionality will I miss that makes working in Word harder or more time-comsuming. If I can present an argument that justifies sticking with Frame because of cost-savings, I may yet be able to stave off its demise. Many thanks! Ian Saunders Syntellect Inc (UK) ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as kmcdan...@pavtech.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/kmcdaniel%40pavtech. com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Any up to date comparisons of Word and Frame
Another thought. You can use Notepad to program in various languages, but why would you want to? You are missing so many effective and time-saving tools. Are you producing PDF files? If so, using Word removes a boat load of time-saving automatic tools for indexing, hypertext linking, and TOC generation, not to mention use of 3rd party tools that help you customize PDF production and end output. Scott Saunders, Ian wrote: > Hi, > > I am a fanatical Frame user but it looks as though I am going to have to > convert my docs to Word (long story, but half my company's docs are written > using Word). I know this question comes up time after time, but most > responses refer to old reviews and comparisons (though probably the only ones > that exist on the web). > > I work well and efficiently in Frame, and know exactly what it can and can't > do. I enjoy using it. I am scared that working in Word will be less > efficient, more frustrating, and that it will crash and screw up my documents. > > Can anyone provide or point me to an up to date comparison of Frame 8 or 9 vs > Word 2007 (or later?). I know this is hard because very few folks use both > tools extensively and know what each is capable of. Frame fans say that Word > sucks, and Word fans say it doesn't. Tit for tat. > > Is Word's multifile functionality still broken? Does it produce hyperlinked > index entries by default. Does the latest Word have any serious problems or > deficiencies, and which Frame functionality will I miss that makes working in > Word harder or more time-comsuming. > > If I can present an argument that justifies sticking with Frame because of > cost-savings, I may yet be able to stave off its demise. > > Many thanks! > > Ian Saunders > Syntellect Inc (UK) > > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to Framers as qui...@airmail.net. > > Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com > or visit > http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/quills%40airmail.net > > Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. > > > ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Any up to date comparisons of Word and Frame
I have used Word 2007. They tried to fix what wasn't broken. And no, they didn't fix either the numbering system or multi-file operations. It's still oriented toward smaller documents with less complexity. I also would avoid it for any XML work. My preference, but their past history of munging HTML files in export doesn't inspire trust. Their new GUI isn't intuitive, The use of icons isn't effective as they don't describe all things for all people. There is a very steep learning curve, and a lot of frustration. Since they don't use menus you can't refer to things easily for keyboard access to dialogs. You basically have to find MS's own help listing of keyboard equivalents, and then memorize them. It's not user friendly. Scott Writer wrote: > I have to agree with Carla on this point. Although, I'm tempted to amend her > statement to say "it would take AT LEAST 25-30% longer". I haven't used the > most recent version of Word either, but I'm sure if things had improved, I'd > have heard about it through the grapevine. > > Nadine > > > --- On Thu, 4/9/09, Martinek, Carla wrote: > > >> I can make it work in Word, but I can guarantee it will take more time as >> you are continually "fixing" things that shouldn't have had issues to start >> with. I estimate that Word docs take 25-30% longer just because of the >> inherent issues. >> > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to Framers as qui...@airmail.net. > > Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com > or visit > http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/quills%40airmail.net > > Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. > > > ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Any up to date comparisons of Word and Frame
I have to agree with Carla on this point. Although, I'm tempted to amend her statement to say "it would take AT LEAST 25-30% longer". I haven't used the most recent version of Word either, but I'm sure if things had improved, I'd have heard about it through the grapevine. Nadine --- On Thu, 4/9/09, Martinek, Carla wrote: > I can make it work in Word, but I can guarantee it will take more time as you > are continually "fixing" things that shouldn't have had issues to start with. > I estimate that Word docs take 25-30% longer just because of the inherent > issues. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Any up to date comparisons of Word and Frame
You need to come up with a matrix of YOUR specific documentation requirements, and work from that, as every comparison I'm aware of is woefully out of date. You may want to start here for a list to work from: http://www.adobe.com/products/framemaker/comparison.html "Because everyone else in the company uses Word" is not a good reason to switch, but if you have to share files/content with other writers, that would be a valid reason. (If your content is in XML, Word claims to handle XML just fine, so that negates the need to switch.) Just like engineers and programmers, you need the correct tools to do the job efficiently. Programmers can write code using MS Word, and engineers can create graphics in MS Word's graphic window, but there are better ways to do it, and they are provided the proper tools. Emphasize that you are also a professional with specific requirements to complete your job. One thing that seems to have remained consistent with Word is its ...quirky... numbering capabilities. Every Word document I've ever had to work in eventually has numbering issues (and I've worked in it since back in the DOS days...) This is a REAL problem in technical documentation, where you often have complex numbering schemes, such as substeps, numbering for tables and figures, etc. I can make it work in Word, but I can guarantee it will take more time as you are continually "fixing" things that shouldn't have had issues to start with. I estimate that Word docs take 25-30% longer just because of the inherent issues. Maybe the new version is better, but the version we have here at work is just as annoying as ever. I remember an anecdotal comment on the list a while back about Microsoft using FrameMaker to publish their printed Word User Guide... not sure if that's true, but if it is, that's rather telling in my mind that even MS recognizes that Word is not suitable for long technical document publishing. -Carla ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
