Re: FW: Re ethanol
-- Hi all, There is a potential technology that has not yet been raised here and I think it maybe more likely than ethanol. That is the technology of off shore hydrogen production through solar electric disassociation of sea water. Floating platforms covered with solar cells or other solar powered generators produces hydrogen which can be packaged for later use in a variety of vessels now in the research stage. The hydrogen can be used directly in fuel cells or can be used to produce a hydrocarbon for use in fuel cells. Proper containment of the hydrogen renders it safe to transport. These containers can be recycled so there is minimum wastage and no pollution produced to speak of. One of the major sources of inefficiency in both the current energy distribution scheme and a hydrogen one is getting the energy from where it is produced to the end user, particularly for mobile use and in remote locations. Even electricty has significant losses when traveling long distances. Natural gas, gasoline and oil all have significant losses at the pump and in pipelines. Fuel cell technology has been progressing in fits and starts and is due for some major developments in small scale power sources. See below for a press release on hand held battery replacement by polymer based micro-fuel cells. These cells run on methanol and other high hydrogen fuels. I don't know if methanol can be produced from sea water, air and solar electricity, but it might. Even if it is only 25% efficient, all the raw ingredients are free. The cost is in building solar cells (which are rapidly coming down in cost) and the floating platforms. The resultant fuel can be shipped ashore by pipeline or barge. dennis paull los altos, Calif. Press Release by Energy Related Devices, a small company sponsoring research in novel fuel cell design. They claim to be less than a year from commercial production. ERD's Micro-Fuel Cell: How It Works A fuel cell operates in principle like a battery, producing electricity by electrochemically combining hydrogen and oxygen without combustion. Unlike a battery, a fuel cell does not run down as long as fuel is supplied. The Micro-Fuel Cell from Energy Related Devices is fueled by methanol and is constructed with multiple layers of thin film. The alcohol side of the film contains a catalyst that breaks the alcohol down into hydrogen ions and carbon dioxide. This generates a negative electrical potential on the alcohol electrode. The hydrogen ions move through the film to the oxygen electrode on the air side of the cell. The hydrogen ions combine with oxygen from the air to produce water vapor. This produces a positive charge on the oxygen electrode. The oxygen and alcohol electrodes form the positive and negative terminals of the fuel cell equivalent to the positive and negative terminals on a conventional battery. Advantages of ERD's Micro-Fuel Cell: Can be manufactured inexpensively using a printing process similar to the manufacture of computer chips. Environmentally responsible energy source that is non-polluting and does not involve the use of toxic chemicals. Instant refuel with methanol, a safe, non-combustible, inexpensive, renewable, plant-based energy source. "Always On" power source. Lightweight, compact size. 20 year shelf-life. WEBSITE INFORMATION Copies of KTIE press releases, SEC filings, current price quotes, and other valuable information for investors may be found on the website http:/www.hawkassociates.com.
Re: FW: Re ethanol
Just be sure you don't heat it.As I found out heat or micro-waves kill enzymes. REH pete wrote: > Michael Spencer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >Um, this is straying kinda far off topic, but when Pete Vincent wrote: > > > >> As to "cellulosic biomass", that is protein,... > > > >I hope you were making a thinko/typo. I suppose any aggregate biomass > >contains some protein but cellulose is a polysaccharide -- a sugar > >polymer -- not protein -- amino acid polymer. If you bust cellulose > >up, you get glucose. Raw wood contains a bunch of other stuff, > >particularly lignin, but it's around 60% cellulose. > > Ack. Clearly a major brain lapse on my part. Don't know where it came > from, but fortunately I never have to make any claims that I'm a chemist. > OK, so presumably we can cook up a good broth of enzymes and biomass and > get out glucose, which then allows the fermentation process to proceed. > This doesn't answer my other questions, though... > > -Pete Vincent
Re: FW: Re ethanol
Michael Spencer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Um, this is straying kinda far off topic, but when Pete Vincent wrote: > >> As to "cellulosic biomass", that is protein,... > >I hope you were making a thinko/typo. I suppose any aggregate biomass >contains some protein but cellulose is a polysaccharide -- a sugar >polymer -- not protein -- amino acid polymer. If you bust cellulose >up, you get glucose. Raw wood contains a bunch of other stuff, >particularly lignin, but it's around 60% cellulose. Ack. Clearly a major brain lapse on my part. Don't know where it came from, but fortunately I never have to make any claims that I'm a chemist. OK, so presumably we can cook up a good broth of enzymes and biomass and get out glucose, which then allows the fermentation process to proceed. This doesn't answer my other questions, though... -Pete Vincent
Re: FW: Re ethanol
Um, this is straying kinda far off topic, but when Pete Vincent wrote: > As to "cellulosic biomass", that is protein,... I hope you were making a thinko/typo. I suppose any aggregate biomass contains some protein but cellulose is a polysaccharide -- a sugar polymer -- not protein -- amino acid polymer. If you bust cellulose up, you get glucose. Raw wood contains a bunch of other stuff, particularly lignin, but it's around 60% cellulose. - Mike
FW: Re ethanol
Mackey David <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Most Ethanal is manufactured from agricultural crops such as sugar >cane, corn and wheat starch. Ethanol can be produced from trees but the >production costs are very high and have only been experimental. Brazil uses >sugar cane to produce most of its ethanol. Yes, that makes sense to me. I'm puzzled by a number of things in the article Ed posted. Generally ethanol is produced by aqueous fermentaion of sugars, then it must be distilled by application of considerable heat, which severely encroaches on the efficiency of the process, unless one can arrange for heating by otherwise waste or unused heat such as sunlight or industrial waste heat. As to "cellulosic biomass", that is protein, and while it will give off methanol as part of its decomposition under application of heat (this is where wood alcohol comes from), I haven't heard before of any means of yielding ethanol from it (chemical synthesis of ethanol from methanol is not trivial). I'm rather curious about the mechanism and efficiency of this process. Potentially, one could get a fair amount of ethanol out of cellulose, just in terms of counting atoms, but it doesn't look to me that there would be an easy way of getting a high yield. Of course, the organic waste coming out of the process might have other uses which could feed back into the process to increase its energy efficiency, but still I suspect a lot of cellulose would have to go in relative to the amount of ethanol coming out. Another item in the post which has me puzzled is this question of CO2 output. I can't see why ethanol should put out only 1% the CO2 of gasoline. There is a higher ratio of hydrogen to carbon in ethanol, which I could see giving an improvement, say decreasing CO2 to around 65-70% that of gas, but You're still burning carbon, and you've got to end up with CO2. -Pete Vincent
