[gentoo-user] Re: Finer grained kde*-meta packages

2007-06-15 Thread Alexander Skwar
Dirk Heinrichs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I completely agree with Alexander about this. Meta (not only the kde ones)
> packages should definitely have USE flags.

http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=182106

Let's see how fast Jakub is to close that bug...

In that bug, I'm only talking about KDE stuff, as that's the
by far largest sum of meta-packages.

Alexander Skwar

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[gentoo-user] Re: Finer grained kde*-meta packages

2007-06-15 Thread Alexander Skwar
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Friday 15 June 2007, Alexander Skwar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Yep.  You get kde-meta or individual kde packages or you get your own
> ebuild that depends on a number of KDE packages.  The Gentoo developers do
> quite a bit of work just to give us kde-meta.  Be glad they don't stick
> you with the monolithic ebuilds.

I am glad and thankful that they provide the meta stuff. But I think,
that the meta packages can be enhanced.

>> Nah. IMO that's the wrong way around. IMO the correct way would
>> be to enhance the kde*-meta packages so, that they support USE flags,
>> which allow the user to select what's to be installed.
> 
> I suppose that's a good idea in the future.  Perhaps you should file an
> enhancement bug. 

Done. http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=182106

> That said, I would prefer kde-meta install all the 
> packages that are part of KDE's upstream packaging by default.

Fine. Me not. That's the whole point of having choices :)

Uhm - reading again what you wrote: "Me too!". By default,
all the upstream packages should be installed. Yes. By default.
But please give me the choice.

>> Eg. a "ppp" flag to select that ppp related stuff is to be installed.
>> Or "filesharing" to disable filesharing related stuf
> 
> Do you suggest a global flag?

I don't think so. I'd rather think, that those flags should
be local ones to the package.

> If so, what packages do you recommend this flags modify the behavior of?

"Depends" :) This post was not so much about the ppp/kppp "issue"
anymore. I wanted to see, if other people would think that a
finer grained control would be a good idea.

> If not, shouldn't it have a less ambiguous name?

The "ppp" flag is already "known" to portage.

--($:~/tmp)-- euses -i ppp
net-dialup/capi4k-utils:pppd - Installs pppdcapiplugin modules

But maybe "dialup" might be good. But that's details.

>> I mean, what's the advantage of the kde*-meta packages over the kde
>> package, when the kde*-meta require just as much "junk", as the
>> kde package does? Hm, really, what's the use of the kde*-meta package
>> anyway?
> 
> The kde-meta package is meant to replace the kde package.  The is no
> advantage (and without a workable confcache, at least one disadvantage) to
> running split ebuilds.  The advantage of split ebilds is that you have the
> choice to install only the kde applications you want, by using the
> individual ebaulds, without dragging in all of kde (which is what "old"
> style kde packages pulled in as a dependency.)

But with using the kde*-meta package, this advantage doesn't
exist.

Suppose you've got the following "use case": Install all of
KDE, but leave out PPP stuff.

How would you solve that? 

cd /usr/portage
emerge `ls -1 kde-*/* | grep -v ppp`

I think not... (Yes, I know that this does not work.)

If it were possible to exclude certain applications or, maybe
even better, certain functions, then this use case could easily
be solved.

But maybe it's really just something peculiar about KDE, as KDE
consists of about 300 packages. Because of that gigantic number,
I could imagine that people might want to install "everything, but XYZ".
At least that's my reasoning.

> Are the monolithic ebuilds still available?

Yes. Eg. kdemultimedia-3.5.7.ebuild

> They need to be purged from 
> the tree ASAP.

Have phun with bugzilla :)

Or where should something like this actually be brought
up?

> -

Your signature is delimited in a wrong way. Please could you
add the proper delimiter (ie. "-- \n")? This would allow
certain user agents (like Knode and many others) to strip
away the .sig when quoting.

Alexander Skwar

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[gentoo-user] Re: Finer grained kde*-meta packages

2007-06-15 Thread Alexander Skwar
Alan McKinnon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Friday 15 June 2007, Alexander Skwar wrote:
>> > Perhaps the best route (maybe a good feature request?) is to put
>> > USE flags in the -meta ebuilds.
>>
>> That's what I'd like to get as a result of
>> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=182106
> 
> I see we're thinking along the same lines. Now, how fine grained do you
> want to take this?

Not *TOO* fine grained, as this would/might be too confusing. I
don't think it might be a good idea to now introduce like 300
flags, so that each and every package can be dis-/enabled.

> I can see that a ppp flag local to kde is good (people will either use
> dialup often, or not need it at all).

Yep.

> artwork? some of those downloads are very big, so some user might want a
> way to install only the minimal artwork and never the rest.

Maybe.

> I'd like a way to not build the various admin gui tools - hell will
> freeze over long before I ever use anything other than vi to edit a
> crontab.

In this case, a "admin-tools" USE flag might be good for you. And
it could be shared with Gnome as well.

> And so on and so on. Or are you just looking for agreement

Yep :)

> and a 
> mechanism to put use flags into split ebuilds and let the devs decide
> which ones are worth persuing?

With "split ebuilds" you mean for example the ebuild for kppp? Or
are you talking about the kde*-meta ebuilds?

My focus is on the meta ebuilds. There I'd like to be able to control
to a finer degree, what's to be installed and what's not to be installed.

Alexander Skwar

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[gentoo-user] Re: Finer grained kde*-meta packages

2007-06-15 Thread Alexander Skwar
Alan McKinnon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Friday 15 June 2007, Alexander Skwar wrote:


> Sorry for not being clearer. I meant USE flags in the -meta ebuilds, to
> disable undesired apps like kppp. Sort of like:
> 
> DEPEND="
>   kde-base/this-app
>   !nokppp? ( kde-base/kppp )
>   kde-base/that-app
>   "
> 
> I use a no* flag as the default should be to install everything except
> the stuff the user doesn't want.

Good idea! Maybe not "nokppp", but better "no-$function", ie. "no-ppp",
so that "functions" can be excluded, which might exclude more than
just 1 package. Eg. "no-admin-tools" to include KDE GUI admin stuff.

> Expecting user to enable a bunch of 
> flags to get the equivalent of an upstream ebuild is a bit much :-)

You're right.

>> My focus is on the meta ebuilds. There I'd like to be able to control
>> to a finer degree, what's to be installed and what's not to be
>> installed.
> 
> So, we're on the same wavelength. Think I'll pop over to bgo and add my
> voice to the comments...

Thx.

Alexander Skwar

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Finer grained kde*-meta packages

2007-06-15 Thread Alan McKinnon
On Friday 15 June 2007, Alexander Skwar wrote:
> > and a
> > mechanism to put use flags into split ebuilds and let the devs
> > decide which ones are worth persuing?
>
> With "split ebuilds" you mean for example the ebuild for kppp? Or
> are you talking about the kde*-meta ebuilds?

Sorry for not being clearer. I meant USE flags in the -meta ebuilds, to 
disable undesired apps like kppp. Sort of like:

DEPEND="
  kde-base/this-app
  !nokppp? ( kde-base/kppp )
  kde-base/that-app
  "

I use a no* flag as the default should be to install everything except 
the stuff the user doesn't want. Expecting user to enable a bunch of 
flags to get the equivalent of an upstream ebuild is a bit much :-)

> My focus is on the meta ebuilds. There I'd like to be able to control
> to a finer degree, what's to be installed and what's not to be
> installed.

So, we're on the same wavelength. Think I'll pop over to bgo and add my 
voice to the comments...

alan

-- 
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Pessimists say the glass is half empty,
Developers say wtf is the glass twice as big as it needs to be?

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Finer grained kde*-meta packages

2007-06-15 Thread Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
On Friday 15 June 2007, Alexander Skwar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote 
about '[gentoo-user]  Re: Finer grained kde*-meta packages':
> Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Friday 15 June 2007, Alexander Skwar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> The "ppp" flag is already "known" to portage.
>
> --($:~/tmp)-- euses -i ppp
> net-dialup/capi4k-utils:pppd - Installs pppdcapiplugin modules

That's "pppd", not "ppp"

> But maybe "dialup" might be good. But that's details.

Yes, much easier to understand.

> >> I mean, what's the advantage of the kde*-meta packages over the kde
> >> package, when the kde*-meta require just as much "junk", as the
> >> kde package does? Hm, really, what's the use of the kde*-meta package
> >> anyway?
> >
> > The kde-meta package is meant to replace the kde package.  The is no
> > advantage (and without a workable confcache, at least one
> > disadvantage) to running split ebuilds.  The advantage of split ebilds
> > is that you have the choice to install only the kde applications you
> > want, by using the individual ebaulds, without dragging in all of kde
> > (which is what "old" style kde packages pulled in as a dependency.)
>
> But with using the kde*-meta package, this advantage doesn't
> exist.

Right, because kde*-meta is supposed to replace, and act as much as 
possible like the monolithic kde* package.  If you don't want all of 
kdenetwork you don't install kdenetwork-meta, you install individual 
applications from kdenetwork.

Of course, any USE flags available on the old monolithic packages, as well 
as any use configure options from upstream, should be exposed.

> > Are the monolithic ebuilds still available?
>
> Yes. Eg. kdemultimedia-3.5.7.ebuild
>
> > They need to be purged from
> > the tree ASAP.
>
> Have phun with bugzilla :)
>
> Or where should something like this actually be brought
> up?

Probably the developer list, I'm sure someone from the kde herd would hear 
you there.

> > -
>
> Your signature is delimited in a wrong way.

Odd, I must have accidentally cut one of the -s.  Kmail properly uses "-- 
\n" as this message and my first in the thread can attest.  It does let 
you edit you signature and the separator, and I must have mistakenly taken 
advantage of that.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Finer grained kde*-meta packages

2007-06-15 Thread Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
On Friday 15 June 2007, Alexander Skwar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote 
about '[gentoo-user]  Re: Finer grained kde*-meta packages':
> Suppose you've got the following "use case": Install all of
> KDE, but leave out PPP stuff.
>
> How would you solve that?

Intall all the kde*-meta packages except kde-meta (I want to customize my 
kde install) and kdenetwork-meta (Specifically, I want to adjust network 
[ppp] support).  Install any packages I need but don't have yet via the 
split ebuilds.

Just because kde-meta doesn't satisfy your needs you don't have to forgo 
using the -meta ebuilds entirely.  In your case it will probably be < 30 
packages you need to install, not > 300.

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Finer grained kde*-meta packages

2007-06-15 Thread Kent Fredric

On 6/16/07, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Friday 15 June 2007, Alexander Skwar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote
about '[gentoo-user]  Re: Finer grained kde*-meta packages':
> Suppose you've got the following "use case": Install all of
> KDE, but leave out PPP stuff.
>
> How would you solve that?

Intall all the kde*-meta packages except kde-meta (I want to customize my
kde install) and kdenetwork-meta (Specifically, I want to adjust network
[ppp] support).  Install any packages I need but don't have yet via the
split ebuilds.



I have an idea, but it would probably involve a change in portage
itself  instead of a mere ebuild useflag change.

That idea is basically "optional dep if installable"
ie:
kdenetwork-meta:
(opdep =kde-base/kppp)

which  by default would pull kppp if there was an unmasked copy in the
tree and to skip pulling it, you would just p-mask it

Reason of course being that I for one, a list of 30 useflags all
titled with "no" on the front of them would be a little daunting

( Im not saying it /should/ be done like this, but I just try cover
other areas / techniques that haven't been investigated yet in the off
chance somebody else will see a great idea offshoot from it )
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[gentoo-user] Re: Finer grained kde*-meta packages (was: Make portage assume, that a package is installed)

2007-06-15 Thread Alexander Skwar
Alan McKinnon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Friday 15 June 2007, Alexander Skwar wrote:
>> I mean, what's the advantage of the kde*-meta packages over the kde
>> package, when the kde*-meta require just as much "junk", as the
>> kde package does? Hm, really, what's the use of the kde*-meta package
>> anyway?
> 
> The -meta packages are a good idea.

Absolutely!

> With the old style kde or kdepim etc 
> packages, you got everything whether you liked it or not. 

Well, that's what you get now as well... Eg. I don't want kppp,
but I get anyway, whether I like it or not. At least sort of.

> Putting a USE 
> flag on such an ebuild to build all of kdepim except kppp would be ...
> tricky at best.

True.

> The -meta packages split everything in kde up on an app level, but there
> is the disadvantage that you now have 300 ebuilds to choose from and
> get to list *all* the ones you want.

Exactly.

> Perhaps the best route (maybe a good feature request?) is to put USE
> flags in the -meta ebuilds. 

That's what I'd like to get as a result of 
http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=182106

> Then you get the full configurability of 
> what -meta gives, plus an easy way to omit stuff without having to list
>>100 desired packages

Exactly.

Best regards,
Alexander Skwar

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Finer grained kde*-meta packages (was: Make portage assume, that a package is installed)

2007-06-15 Thread Alan McKinnon
On Friday 15 June 2007, Alexander Skwar wrote:
> > Perhaps the best route (maybe a good feature request?) is to put
> > USE flags in the -meta ebuilds.
>
> That's what I'd like to get as a result of
> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=182106

I see we're thinking along the same lines. Now, how fine grained do you 
want to take this?

I can see that a ppp flag local to kde is good (people will either use 
dialup often, or not need it at all).

artwork? some of those downloads are very big, so some user might want a 
way to install only the minimal artwork and never the rest.

I'd like a way to not build the various admin gui tools - hell will 
freeze over long before I ever use anything other than vi to edit a 
crontab.

And so on and so on. Or are you just looking for agreement and a 
mechanism to put use flags into split ebuilds and let the devs decide 
which ones are worth persuing?

alan

-- 
Optimists say the glass is half full,
Pessimists say the glass is half empty,
Developers say wtf is the glass twice as big as it needs to be?

Alan McKinnon
alan at linuxholdings dot co dot za
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