Re: PROPOSAL: Include record puns in Haskell 2011
Hello, In order to keep the discussion structured I have created two tickets in the haskell-prime trac system (http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/haskell-prime): * Proposal 1: Add pre-Haskell'98 style punning and record disambiguation (ticket #136) * Proposal 2: Add record-wildcards (ticket #137) I decided to split the two into separate tickets because, at least in my mind, there are different things that we might discuss about the two, and also they make sense independent of each other (although record wildcards without punning might be a bit weird :-). I think that both proposals are worth considering for Haskell 2011 because there are situations where they can significantly improve the readability of code involving record manipulation. I disagree with the stylistic issues that were brought up in the discussion because I do not believe that variable "shadowing" should be avoided at all costs: at least for me, avoiding shadowing is a means to an end rather then an end in itself. In the case of record puns, I think that the clarity of the notation far surpasses any confusion that might be introduced by the shadowing. Furthermore, as other participants in the discussion pointed out, the proposed features are orthogonal to the rest of the language, so their use is entirely optional. -Iavor On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 2:59 AM, Heinrich Apfelmus wrote: > Simon Marlow wrote: >> While I agree with these points, I was converted to record punning >> (actually record wildcards) when I rewrote the GHC IO library. Handle >> is a record with 12 or so fields, and there are literally dozens of >> functions that start like this: >> >> flushWriteBuffer :: Handle -> IO () >> flushWriteBuffer Handle{..} = do >> >> if I had to write out the field names I use each time, and even worse, >> think up names to bind to each of them, it would be hideous. > > What about using field names as functions? > > flushWriteBuffer h@(Handle {}) = do > ... buffer h ... > > Of course, you always have to drag h around. > > > Regards, > Heinrich Apfelmus > > -- > http://apfelmus.nfshost.com > > ___ > Haskell-prime mailing list > Haskell-prime@haskell.org > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime > ___ Haskell-prime mailing list Haskell-prime@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Re: PROPOSAL: Include record puns in Haskell 2011
Simon Marlow wrote: > While I agree with these points, I was converted to record punning > (actually record wildcards) when I rewrote the GHC IO library. Handle > is a record with 12 or so fields, and there are literally dozens of > functions that start like this: > > flushWriteBuffer :: Handle -> IO () > flushWriteBuffer Handle{..} = do > > if I had to write out the field names I use each time, and even worse, > think up names to bind to each of them, it would be hideous. What about using field names as functions? flushWriteBuffer h@(Handle {}) = do ... buffer h ... Of course, you always have to drag h around. Regards, Heinrich Apfelmus -- http://apfelmus.nfshost.com ___ Haskell-prime mailing list Haskell-prime@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
RE: PROPOSAL: Include record puns in Haskell 2011
| >> we implicitly get | >> f :: T -> Int | >> which punning shadows with | >> f :: Int | >> whereas I generally avoid shadowing completely. | > | > I agree with Ian. | | I tend to agree. I originally had field puns in GHC, and then took them out when Haskell 98 removed them, after a discussion very like this one. I put them back in because some people really wanted them. Actually GHC has three separate extensions to do with named fields: field disambiguation (Section 7.3.14) field puns (Section 7.3.15) field wildcards (Section 7.3.16) Look here http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/users_guide/syntax-extns.html#disambiguate-fields Opinions differ. I'm rather with John: let the programmer choose, rather than enforcing a style in the language. For punning, the programmer can certainly choose on a case by case basis. If you use Haskell 98's existing syntax, there is no change to the semantics if you switch on field puns: data T = C { f :: Int } foo (C {f = x}) = ... -- No punning bar (C {f}) = ... -- Punning It would help this discussion if someone created a ticket to explain the actual proposal, so that we are all discussing the same thing. Simon ___ Haskell-prime mailing list Haskell-prime@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Re: PROPOSAL: Include record puns in Haskell 2011
On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 08:50:42PM +, Simon Marlow wrote: > On 24/02/10 18:23, Ian Lynagh wrote: > While I agree with these points, I was converted to record punning > (actually record wildcards) when I rewrote the GHC IO library. Handle > is a record with 12 or so fields, and there are literally dozens of > functions that start like this: > > flushWriteBuffer :: Handle -> IO () > flushWriteBuffer Handle{..} = do > > if I had to write out the field names I use each time, and even worse, > think up names to bind to each of them, it would be hideous. > > There are reasons to find this distasteful, yes, but I think the > alternative is much worse. > > I'm not proposing record wildcards (yet) *cough* labelled-field > wildcards, but punning is a step in the right direction. Yes. I too have had this issue with jhc and am a big fan of GHC's field wildcards. It is motivation enough for me to require a newer version of ghc for compiling jhc. I'd support field wildcards in 2011, but would understand if people thought it was too soon. John -- John Meacham - ⑆repetae.net⑆john⑈ - http://notanumber.net/ ___ Haskell-prime mailing list Haskell-prime@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Re: PROPOSAL: Include record puns in Haskell 2011
On 24/02/10 18:23, Ian Lynagh wrote: On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 07:07:30PM -0800, Iavor Diatchki wrote: I'd like to propose that we add record punning to Haskell 2011. Thoughts, objections, suggestions? I have a feeling I'm in the minority, but I find record punning an ugly feature. Given data T = C { f :: Int } we implicitly get f :: T -> Int which punning shadows with f :: Int whereas I generally avoid shadowing completely. While I agree with these points, I was converted to record punning (actually record wildcards) when I rewrote the GHC IO library. Handle is a record with 12 or so fields, and there are literally dozens of functions that start like this: flushWriteBuffer :: Handle -> IO () flushWriteBuffer Handle{..} = do if I had to write out the field names I use each time, and even worse, think up names to bind to each of them, it would be hideous. There are reasons to find this distasteful, yes, but I think the alternative is much worse. I'm not proposing record wildcards (yet) *cough* labelled-field wildcards, but punning is a step in the right direction. Cheers, Simon ___ Haskell-prime mailing list Haskell-prime@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Re: PROPOSAL: Include record puns in Haskell 2011
On 02/24/10 13:40, Martijn van Steenbergen wrote: Ian Lynagh wrote: I have a feeling I'm in the minority, but I find record punning an ugly feature. Given data T = C { f :: Int } we implicitly get f :: T -> Int which punning shadows with f :: Int whereas I generally avoid shadowing completely. I agree with Ian. I tend to agree. I don't mind if a few files that use a ton of label-operations are marked with NamedFieldPuns and use that feature a lot. But, funnily, if it were put in the standard then it would be enabled in un-marked source files, and then I personally wouldn't like it as much. (Any decision is acceptable to me though.) -Isaac ___ Haskell-prime mailing list Haskell-prime@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Re: PROPOSAL: Include record puns in Haskell 2011
On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 06:54:44PM +, Thomas Davie wrote: > The problem though, unless I'm misunderstanding, is that you *must* > enforce one or other convention here. Either you force everyone who's > style is to never shadow things to do so because of this language > feature, or you remove the language feature and trample on the other > crowd. Hmm? I don't see how this language feature forces shadowing any more than allowing shadowing anywhere else in the language. It is not proposed that field punning replace the previous mechanism for assigning or pulling values from fields, just that it be added as an option. Just as it has always been an option to shadow variables in do notation. John -- John Meacham - ⑆repetae.net⑆john⑈ - http://notanumber.net/ ___ Haskell-prime mailing list Haskell-prime@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Re: PROPOSAL: Include record puns in Haskell 2011
On 24 Feb 2010, at 18:52, John Meacham wrote: > On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 06:23:39PM +, Ian Lynagh wrote: >> On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 07:07:30PM -0800, Iavor Diatchki wrote: >> I have a feeling I'm in the minority, but I find record punning an ugly >> feature. >> >> Given >>data T = C { f :: Int } >> we implicitly get >>f :: T -> Int >> which punning shadows with >>f :: Int >> whereas I generally avoid shadowing completely. > > I can see the thinking here, but I don't like for the language to try to > enforce 'style' or make decisions based on it. I think it is more in the > spirit of haskell to provide multiple mechanisms when it makes sense and > let the users figure out what works for them stylistically. The problem though, unless I'm misunderstanding, is that you *must* enforce one or other convention here. Either you force everyone who's style is to never shadow things to do so because of this language feature, or you remove the language feature and trample on the other crowd. For what it's worth, I'd side with Ian on this one. Bob___ Haskell-prime mailing list Haskell-prime@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Re: PROPOSAL: Include record puns in Haskell 2011
On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 06:23:39PM +, Ian Lynagh wrote: > On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 07:07:30PM -0800, Iavor Diatchki wrote: > I have a feeling I'm in the minority, but I find record punning an ugly > feature. > > Given > data T = C { f :: Int } > we implicitly get > f :: T -> Int > which punning shadows with > f :: Int > whereas I generally avoid shadowing completely. I can see the thinking here, but I don't like for the language to try to enforce 'style' or make decisions based on it. I think it is more in the spirit of haskell to provide multiple mechanisms when it makes sense and let the users figure out what works for them stylistically. John -- John Meacham - ⑆repetae.net⑆john⑈ - http://notanumber.net/ ___ Haskell-prime mailing list Haskell-prime@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Re: PROPOSAL: Include record puns in Haskell 2011
Ian Lynagh wrote: I have a feeling I'm in the minority, but I find record punning an ugly feature. Given data T = C { f :: Int } we implicitly get f :: T -> Int which punning shadows with f :: Int whereas I generally avoid shadowing completely. I agree with Ian. Groetjes, Martijn. ___ Haskell-prime mailing list Haskell-prime@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Re: PROPOSAL: Include record puns in Haskell 2011
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 07:07:30PM -0800, Iavor Diatchki wrote: > > I'd like to propose that we add record punning to Haskell 2011. > > Thoughts, objections, suggestions? I have a feeling I'm in the minority, but I find record punning an ugly feature. Given data T = C { f :: Int } we implicitly get f :: T -> Int which punning shadows with f :: Int whereas I generally avoid shadowing completely. Thanks Ian ___ Haskell-prime mailing list Haskell-prime@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
PROPOSAL: Include record puns in Haskell 2011
Hello, (Malcolm, sorry for the double post, I forgot to CC the list) I was thinking mostly about the "old-time"-y punning, where I can write a label, say "theField", and it automatically gets expanded to "theField = theField", in record patterns and record constructing expressions. The only corner case that I can remember about this is the interaction with qualified names, the issue being what happens if a label in a pun is qualified? I think that in such cases we should just used the unqualified form for the variable associated with the label. In patterns, I can't think of any other sensible alternative. In expressions, I could imaging expanding "A.theField" to "A.theField = A.theField" but it seems that this would almost never be what we want, while in all the uses I've had "A.theField = theField" is what was needed. I think that this is exactly what GHC implements, at least based on the following example: module A where data T = C { f :: Int } {-# LANGUAGE NamedFieldPuns #-} module B where import qualified A testPattern (A.C { A.f }) = f testExpr f = A.C { A.f } I imagine that this is fairly close to what was in Haskell 1.3? As far as wild-cards are concerned, I don't feel particularly strongly about them either way (I can see some benefits and some drawbacks) so I'd be happy to leave them for a separate proposal or add them to this one, depending on how the rest of the community feels. -Iavor On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 1:35 AM, Malcolm Wallace wrote: >> I'd like to propose that we add record punning to Haskell 2011. > > Can you be more specific? Do you propose to re-instate punning exactly as > it was specified in Haskell 1.3? Or do you propose in addition some of the > newer extensions that have been recently implemented in ghc (but not other > compilers), such as record wildcards? > > Regards, > Malcolm > > ___ > Haskell-prime mailing list > Haskell-prime@haskell.org > http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime > ___ Haskell-prime mailing list Haskell-prime@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Re: PROPOSAL: Include record puns in Haskell 2011
I'd like to propose that we add record punning to Haskell 2011. Can you be more specific? Do you propose to re-instate punning exactly as it was specified in Haskell 1.3? Or do you propose in addition some of the newer extensions that have been recently implemented in ghc (but not other compilers), such as record wildcards? Regards, Malcolm ___ Haskell-prime mailing list Haskell-prime@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
PROPOSAL: Include record puns in Haskell 2011
Hello, I'd like to propose that we add record punning to Haskell 2011. I think that this is a useful feature which makes working with record fields easier, and reduces clutter in definitions, both in patterns and expressions. Furthermore, this features has been implemented in GHC for a long time (it used to be in Hugs too, once) and we've had plenty of time to iron out dark corners in the design. Thoughts, objections, suggestions? -Iavor ___ Haskell-prime mailing list Haskell-prime@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime