Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Elevation / SRTM data
Thanks and I'll have a closer look in the archive! Peter. > To answer all your questions in one go: there has been a lot of > discussion (especially on this mailing list) about the problems/issues > you raised. And there have been some efforts to better clarify these > things. I suggest reading the mailing list archive. > > My own opinion is that the legal issues here are murky and I agree > they could be interpreted differently by different lawyers/people. And > I guess it is very difficult to write a good license text for such > type of license, since there are a lot of different ways the data > could be used, lot of corner cases and a lot of ways the licence could > be circumvented by interested parties if written too specifically. I > guess the protecting power of ODbL is in its murkiness :) > > I would not give myself too much hope with interpretations of > "trivial" and "substantial", in my opinion your use case falls well > outside of a trivial and unsubstantial use. > > On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Peter K <mailto:peat...@yahoo.de>> wrote: > > Thanks Igor! > > I still have a problem when the "substantial" part of the license > apply. Also in the wiki there is an explanation about "trivial > transformation". Are there some examples when both of them applies? > > The wiki raises more questions then it solves as it e.g. does not > say if the example is a trivial transformation or not: > > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Trivial_Transformations_-_Guideline > > > > > Both, I think - this means you publicly distribute the > Derivative Database, which has its implications. It also means > > that CGIAR-based data is then available to public through a > license different (and more permissive) than the original > > CGIAR license, which the owner is probably not going to be happy > about - since he then cannot enforce the > > "/If interested in using this data for commercial purposes > please email/" rule. > > Ok, makes sense! BTW: why is such a modification not allowed for > OpenStreetMap? IMO this limits the applications a lot as also > enterprise guys cannot just buy a commercial license of OSM so > they would need to *completely* stay away from OSM! > > > > > But again, I'm not a lawyer :) > > The thing with ODbl is that even lawyers are not sure because > there are no (or too few) court cases. So the community has to > make this very vague ODbl definition more specific. This > clarification would be important to increase the adoption in the > enterprise. > > Regards, > Peter. > ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Elevation / SRTM data
Thanks Igor! I still have a problem when the "substantial" part of the license apply. Also in the wiki there is an explanation about "trivial transformation". Are there some examples when both of them applies? The wiki raises more questions then it solves as it e.g. does not say if the example is a trivial transformation or not: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Trivial_Transformations_-_Guideline > Both, I think - this means you publicly distribute the Derivative Database, which has its implications. It also means > that CGIAR-based data is then available to public through a license different (and more permissive) than the original > CGIAR license, which the owner is probably not going to be happy about - since he then cannot enforce the > "/If interested in using this data for commercial purposes please email/" rule. Ok, makes sense! BTW: why is such a modification not allowed for OpenStreetMap? IMO this limits the applications a lot as also enterprise guys cannot just buy a commercial license of OSM so they would need to *completely* stay away from OSM! > But again, I'm not a lawyer :) The thing with ODbl is that even lawyers are not sure because there are no (or too few) court cases. So the community has to make this very vague ODbl definition more specific. This clarification would be important to increase the adoption in the enterprise. Regards, Peter. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Clarifying Geocoding and ODbL
Hi there, I would like to have clarification on this subject as well (but be aware that I'm just in the process of understanding the OSM license -> see the other thread). What I do not understand with the OSM license is the following (constructed) example: * I have a separate geo coder application based on OSM data * I have my own user database which is public to every individual Now what happens when I use the geocoder to let users do autocompleting its addresses in my "somehow public" database? I have lots of users so this "manual" copying from OSM would be *substantial* but at the same time it is clear that I cannot make the database itself public. Or is the resulting database still separate as there are clean "OSM columns"? Regards, Peter. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Elevation / SRTM data
Hi Igor, exactly in those areas I have a problem of understanding the OSM license :) > If you store the elevation data in the original grid-based form No, as explained, I do intent to calculate edge weights based on OSM and elevation data. Is this a trivial change? And then I "store" this mixed weights in-memory but this is only a configuration to make it storing on disc. And would it make a difference? I read somewhere that "storing" could be also in-memory with the rise of NoSQL databases this makes indeed sense ... > Except, of course, if you intend to offer the routing as some kind of high-availability web service > which would allow somebody to reconstruct the original elevation data using web scraping. What did you mean here? This would make a difference for the elevation provider license not for the OSM license (?) > Of course, all of this also depends on you getting the approval/agreement from the CGIAR data owner > to use the elevation data for commercial purposes. Of course, but I think this would be another issue. I would like to understand the OSM implications first :) ! Regards, Peter. > I'm not an expert, but I think it largely depends on your definition > of the "routing database". If you store the elevation data in the > original grid-based form and you request elevation data on-demand for > lat/lon coords without long-term storing of lat/lon + elevation pairs, > then I don't really see the two data sources "infecting" one another > in legal terms. > > Except, of course, if you intend to offer the routing as some kind of > high-availability web service which would allow somebody to > reconstruct the original elevation data using web scraping. > > Of course, all of this also depends on you getting the > approval/agreement from the CGIAR data owner to use the elevation data > for commercial purposes. > > Best regards, > Igor Brejc > > On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 1:01 PM, Peter K <mailto:peat...@yahoo.de>> wrote: > > It is "enhanced SRTM" from cgiar: http://srtm.csi.cgiar.org/ > > E.g. see: http://srtm.csi.cgiar.org/SRTM_FAQ.asp -> /"Can I use > this data for commercial use? //If interested in using this data > for commercial purposes please email //Andy Jarvis > <mailto:a.jar...@cgiar.org>//./" > > Regards, > Peter. > >> >> If it's SRTM it's just public domain isn't it? So if the >> resulting database is under ODBL I can't see that being a problem. >> >> Very much IANAL. >> >> Nick >> >> -Peter K <mailto:peat...@yahoo.de> wrote: >> - >> To: legal-talk@openstreetmap.org >> <mailto:legal-talk@openstreetmap.org> >> From: Peter K <mailto:peat...@yahoo.de> >> Date: 04/07/2013 09:05AM >> Subject: [OSM-legal-talk] Elevation / SRTM data >> >> Hi there, >> >> how would like to know how I could integrate SRTM data with OSM >> data. It >> is not for a mapping service where I could overlay the elevation >> curves/data and keep it separate. It is for my routing engine >> GraphHopper where I would need to do the following: >> >> * to calculate the distance I take the latitudes and longitudes from >> OSM, to guess the speed I take the highway and other tags. Then, with >> the help of the SRTM data I modify this distance and speed to be more >> real world. >> * to create an elevation profile of the resulting path. This >> should be >> simple (?) as the elevation data could be in a separate database and >> just fetched on demand. >> >> Will the resulting routing database fall under ODbL which the >> providers >> probably do not want as their elevation data could be guessed or even >> recalculated (with a bit effort)? >> >> Sorry, if this is a stupid question. I'm really new to OSM licensing >> world :) and there was a similar question but this was regarding hill >> shading and the old license: >> >> http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/OSM-legal-talk-ASTER-or-no-ASTER-td5715399.html >> >> Regards, >> Peter. > ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Elevation / SRTM data
It is "enhanced SRTM" from cgiar: http://srtm.csi.cgiar.org/ E.g. see: http://srtm.csi.cgiar.org/SRTM_FAQ.asp -> /"Can I use this data for commercial use? //If interested in using this data for commercial purposes please email //Andy Jarvis <mailto:a.jar...@cgiar.org>//./" Regards, Peter. > > If it's SRTM it's just public domain isn't it? So if the resulting > database is under ODBL I can't see that being a problem. > > Very much IANAL. > > Nick > > -Peter K wrote: - > To: legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > From: Peter K > Date: 04/07/2013 09:05AM > Subject: [OSM-legal-talk] Elevation / SRTM data > > Hi there, > > how would like to know how I could integrate SRTM data with OSM data. It > is not for a mapping service where I could overlay the elevation > curves/data and keep it separate. It is for my routing engine > GraphHopper where I would need to do the following: > > * to calculate the distance I take the latitudes and longitudes from > OSM, to guess the speed I take the highway and other tags. Then, with > the help of the SRTM data I modify this distance and speed to be more > real world. > * to create an elevation profile of the resulting path. This should be > simple (?) as the elevation data could be in a separate database and > just fetched on demand. > > Will the resulting routing database fall under ODbL which the providers > probably do not want as their elevation data could be guessed or even > recalculated (with a bit effort)? > > Sorry, if this is a stupid question. I'm really new to OSM licensing > world :) and there was a similar question but this was regarding hill > shading and the old license: > http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/OSM-legal-talk-ASTER-or-no-ASTER-td5715399.html > > Regards, > Peter. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
[OSM-legal-talk] Elevation / SRTM data
Hi there, how would like to know how I could integrate SRTM data with OSM data. It is not for a mapping service where I could overlay the elevation curves/data and keep it separate. It is for my routing engine GraphHopper where I would need to do the following: * to calculate the distance I take the latitudes and longitudes from OSM, to guess the speed I take the highway and other tags. Then, with the help of the SRTM data I modify this distance and speed to be more real world. * to create an elevation profile of the resulting path. This should be simple (?) as the elevation data could be in a separate database and just fetched on demand. Will the resulting routing database fall under ODbL which the providers probably do not want as their elevation data could be guessed or even recalculated (with a bit effort)? Sorry, if this is a stupid question. I'm really new to OSM licensing world :) and there was a similar question but this was regarding hill shading and the old license: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/OSM-legal-talk-ASTER-or-no-ASTER-td5715399.html Regards, Peter. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
