Re: triple stop warnings
Jay Anderson writes: > I've done triple-stops like this in the past: > << c4 2.\fermata >> > > I'd prefer to do the triple-stop something more like this to avoid warnings: > <\tweak #'duration-log #2 \tweak #'dot-count #0 c g' e'>2.\fermata | Your code examples don't work as top-level documents, and I don't see how I can bolster them up to result in something that makes remote sense. It is not clear to me why you want a duration 2., only to remove the dot by hand afterwards. It is not clear to me why you want different durations for c and then g and e at all. I can't guess what you wish the overall length of that phrase to be musically, as well as what noteheads and dots you want to have appear on the various notes. So please make a complete example that shows the output (and musical length) as close as possible, describe where it falls short in those respects, and then one can see a) how to get that result b) how to avoid warnings in the process. Your current description is not useful for guessing what you want. My overall guess is that you want a chord for which the low note is only sounded, and the upper notes are held for the duration of the fermata. I have utterly no idea why you would want to specify 2., but remove the resulting dot. Thanks -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: triple stop warnings
2009/12/11 Jay Anderson : > I've done triple-stops like this in the past: > << c4 2.\fermata >> > > I'd prefer to do the triple-stop something more like this to avoid warnings: > <\tweak #'duration-log #2 \tweak #'dot-count #0 c g' e'>2.\fermata | > > Unfortunately I can't make the dot disappear easily (the dot-count > thing I was trying doesn't work). I could probably write a function to > remove the dot for this case (which might not be a bad idea: > \tripleStop 2.\fermata), but if there's a simple tweak to get > rid of the dot I'd be interested to know. Does this fall under the > recent \tweak nested properties changes? Thanks. Is this notation something you've seen other music producers use? It sounds like you want a chord with a crotchet at the bottom and two fermata'd minims at the top; and you want to ignore the warning about the lower crotchet not being the same length as the minims. I'm not convinced that this is the best way to do what you want, but I'm not a string player so I'm not familiar with string music conventions. Something similar is done in "using ties with arpeggios" in the manual: http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.12/Documentation/user/lilypond/Writing-rhythms#Ties and it does what you want but it's not quite what you asked for. Another way is to represent the two halves of the chord as two or three voices, and just put rests in each voice while it isn't playing. You could then make the rests invisible to get something like what you were originally asking for. You could represent the double-stop as a tied appoggiatura. I think this is the best way to be explicit about what you want. Or you could just put a full chord in and expect the player to know what that means. Isn't this how triple stops are normally done? Eg Elgar cello concerto, first two chords: http://www.virtualsheetmusic.com/LookInside/ElgarVc.html Tchaikovsky 6th symphony, third movement ending: http://bennewhouse.berkleemusicblogs.com/2009/09/24/a-tchaikovsky-chord-stops/ Phi ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: triple stop warnings
On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 09:20 +, Philip Potter wrote: > 2009/12/11 Jay Anderson : > > I've done triple-stops like this in the past: > > << c4 2.\fermata >> > > > > I'd prefer to do the triple-stop something more like this to avoid warnings: > > <\tweak #'duration-log #2 \tweak #'dot-count #0 c g' e'>2.\fermata | > > > > Unfortunately I can't make the dot disappear easily (the dot-count > > thing I was trying doesn't work). I could probably write a function to > > remove the dot for this case (which might not be a bad idea: > > \tripleStop 2.\fermata), but if there's a simple tweak to get > > rid of the dot I'd be interested to know. Does this fall under the > > recent \tweak nested properties changes? Thanks. > > Is this notation something you've seen other music producers use? It > sounds like you want a chord with a crotchet at the bottom and two > fermata'd minims at the top; and you want to ignore the warning about > the lower crotchet not being the same length as the minims. I'm not > convinced that this is the best way to do what you want, but I'm not a > string player so I'm not familiar with string music conventions. This kind of thing is perfectly normal notation, as an explicit instruction to arpeggiate a chord in a certain way - off-hand, examples I can think of are in the last movement of Tchaik 5, and various points in the Stravinsky violin concerto. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: triple stop warnings
2009/12/11 Owain Sutton : > On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 09:20 +, Philip Potter wrote: >> 2009/12/11 Jay Anderson : >> > I've done triple-stops like this in the past: >> > << c4 2.\fermata >> >> > >> > I'd prefer to do the triple-stop something more like this to avoid >> > warnings: >> > <\tweak #'duration-log #2 \tweak #'dot-count #0 c g' e'>2.\fermata | >> > >> > Unfortunately I can't make the dot disappear easily (the dot-count >> > thing I was trying doesn't work). I could probably write a function to >> > remove the dot for this case (which might not be a bad idea: >> > \tripleStop 2.\fermata), but if there's a simple tweak to get >> > rid of the dot I'd be interested to know. Does this fall under the >> > recent \tweak nested properties changes? Thanks. >> >> Is this notation something you've seen other music producers use? It >> sounds like you want a chord with a crotchet at the bottom and two >> fermata'd minims at the top; and you want to ignore the warning about >> the lower crotchet not being the same length as the minims. I'm not >> convinced that this is the best way to do what you want, but I'm not a >> string player so I'm not familiar with string music conventions. > > > This kind of thing is perfectly normal notation, as an explicit > instruction to arpeggiate a chord in a certain way - off-hand, examples > I can think of are in the last movement of Tchaik 5, and various points > in the Stravinsky violin concerto. Do you have a graphical example? I still can't picture it, and it would help greatly to understand exactly what is wanted. Phil ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: triple stop warnings
On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 10:42 +, Philip Potter wrote: > 2009/12/11 Owain Sutton : > > On Fri, 2009-12-11 at 09:20 +, Philip Potter wrote: > >> 2009/12/11 Jay Anderson : > >> > I've done triple-stops like this in the past: > >> > << c4 2.\fermata >> > >> > > >> > I'd prefer to do the triple-stop something more like this to avoid > >> > warnings: > >> > <\tweak #'duration-log #2 \tweak #'dot-count #0 c g' e'>2.\fermata | > >> > > >> > Unfortunately I can't make the dot disappear easily (the dot-count > >> > thing I was trying doesn't work). I could probably write a function to > >> > remove the dot for this case (which might not be a bad idea: > >> > \tripleStop 2.\fermata), but if there's a simple tweak to get > >> > rid of the dot I'd be interested to know. Does this fall under the > >> > recent \tweak nested properties changes? Thanks. > >> > >> Is this notation something you've seen other music producers use? It > >> sounds like you want a chord with a crotchet at the bottom and two > >> fermata'd minims at the top; and you want to ignore the warning about > >> the lower crotchet not being the same length as the minims. I'm not > >> convinced that this is the best way to do what you want, but I'm not a > >> string player so I'm not familiar with string music conventions. > > > > > > This kind of thing is perfectly normal notation, as an explicit > > instruction to arpeggiate a chord in a certain way - off-hand, examples > > I can think of are in the last movement of Tchaik 5, and various points > > in the Stravinsky violin concerto. > > Do you have a graphical example? I still can't picture it, and it > would help greatly to understand exactly what is wanted. > > Phil > I realise now I've checked that the Tchaikovsky does have rests in the lower 'voice'. The Stravinsky doesn't, however, - but you can just about make it out here, at figure 2: http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/look_inside/5867960/image/262798 ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: triple stop warnings
2009/12/11 Owain Sutton :
> I realise now I've checked that the Tchaikovsky does have rests in the
> lower 'voice'. The Stravinsky doesn't, however, - but you can just
> about make it out here, at figure 2:
> http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/look_inside/5867960/image/262798
How about this? First two chords of Elgar cello concerto:
\relative c {
\clef bass
<<
{
\voiceOne
2
2
}
\new Voice {
\voiceTwo
16 s16 s8 s4
16 s16 s8 s4
}
>>
}
Basic idea is using multiple voices to represent the different chord
parts, and hiding rests by using the 's' spacer (invisible) rest. A
little clunky with quite a lot of syntactic cruft; I don't know
lilypond well enough to say if there's a better way of doing it.
Phil
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Re: triple stop warnings
> --- Original Message ---
> From: Philip Potter
> To: m...@owainsutton.co.uk
> Sent: 11.12.09, 13:20:43
> Subject: Re: triple stop warnings
>
> 2009/12/11 Owain Sutton :
> > I realise now I've checked that the Tchaikovsky does have rests in the
> > lower 'voice'. The Stravinsky doesn't, however, - but you can just
> > about make it out here, at figure 2:
> > http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/look_inside/5867960/image/262798
>
> How about this? First two chords of Elgar cello concerto:
>
> \relative c {
> \clef bass
> <<
> {
> \voiceOne
> 2
> 2
> }
> \new Voice {
> \voiceTwo
> 16 s16 s8 s4
> 16 s16 s8 s4
> }
> >>
> }
>
> Basic idea is using multiple voices to represent the different chord
> parts, and hiding rests by using the 's' spacer (invisible) rest. A
> little clunky with quite a lot of syntactic cruft; I don't know
> lilypond well enough to say if there's a better way of doing it.
>
> Phil
>
>
>
I normally use the polyphony construct for this. Try using
<< { 2.\fermata } \\ c,4 >>
No need for skips or rests and you shouldn't get any warnings. Hope this helps,
although I'm not clear about the dot issue.
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Re: triple stop warnings
2009/12/11 Jay Anderson :
> I've done triple-stops like this in the past:
> << c4 2.\fermata >>
>
> I'd prefer to do the triple-stop something more like this to avoid warnings:
> <\tweak #'duration-log #2 \tweak #'dot-count #0 c g' e'>2.\fermata |
>
> Unfortunately I can't make the dot disappear easily (the dot-count
> thing I was trying doesn't work). I could probably write a function to
> remove the dot for this case (which might not be a bad idea:
> \tripleStop 2.\fermata), but if there's a simple tweak to get
> rid of the dot I'd be interested to know.
Since \tweak only works with objects directly related to the music
input, setting 'dot-count doesn't work here. You can however get at
the Dot grob via a NoteHead override (it has access to the grob-object
'dot):
stop =
#(define-music-function (parser location music) (ly:music?)
(set! (ly:music-property music 'tweaks)
(acons 'before-line-breaking
(lambda (grob)
(let ((dots (ly:grob-object grob 'dot)))
(ly:grob-set-property! grob 'duration-log 2)
(and (ly:grob? dots)
(ly:grob-set-property! dots 'dot-count 0
(ly:music-property music 'tweaks)))
music)
\relative c' {
<\stop c g' e'>2.\fermata
}
Regards,
Neil
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Re: triple stop warnings
On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Neil Puttock wrote:
> stop =
> #(define-music-function (parser location music) (ly:music?)
> (set! (ly:music-property music 'tweaks)
> (acons 'before-line-breaking
> (lambda (grob)
> (let ((dots (ly:grob-object grob 'dot)))
> (ly:grob-set-property! grob 'duration-log 2)
> (and (ly:grob? dots)
> (ly:grob-set-property! dots 'dot-count 0
> (ly:music-property music 'tweaks)))
> music)
>
> \relative c' {
> <\stop c g' e'>2.\fermata
> }
That works splendidly! I never knew about before-line-breaking before. Thanks.
Also for the other responses, sorry if I didn't explain it very well.
This is the only way I've seen triple (and quadruple) stops notated so
I thought it would be self-explanatory. Thanks for the other examples.
I hadn't seen it notated like that before (I'm not a string player).
I've attached a picture of the particular chord I was working on (for
viola, alto clef, in 3/4). In this case I want to keep it explicitly
notated and all in the same voice.
-Jay
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Re: triple stop warnings
Jay Anderson writes:
> On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Neil Puttock wrote:
>> stop =
>> #(define-music-function (parser location music) (ly:music?)
>> (set! (ly:music-property music 'tweaks)
>> (acons 'before-line-breaking
>> (lambda (grob)
>> (let ((dots (ly:grob-object grob 'dot)))
>> (ly:grob-set-property! grob 'duration-log 2)
>> (and (ly:grob? dots)
>> (ly:grob-set-property! dots 'dot-count 0
>> (ly:music-property music 'tweaks)))
>> music)
>>
>> \relative c' {
>> <\stop c g' e'>2.\fermata
>> }
>
> Also for the other responses, sorry if I didn't explain it very well.
> This is the only way I've seen triple (and quadruple) stops notated so
> I thought it would be self-explanatory.
Again: could you explain why you want to write 2. as a duration and then
remove the dot manually?
This does not really make sense at all.
> Thanks for the other examples. I hadn't seen it notated like that
> before (I'm not a string player). I've attached a picture of the
> particular chord I was working on (for viola, alto clef, in 3/4). In
> this case I want to keep it explicitly notated and all in the same
> voice.
There are dots on the half notes.
--
David Kastrup
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Re: triple stop warnings
Am Samstag, 12. Dezember 2009 08:35:24 schrieb David Kastrup: > Jay Anderson writes: > > Also for the other responses, sorry if I didn't explain it very well. > > This is the only way I've seen triple (and quadruple) stops notated so > > I thought it would be self-explanatory. > > Again: could you explain why you want to write 2. as a duration and then > remove the dot manually? > > This does not really make sense at all. He does not want to write 2. as a duration. He wants to write the whole thing as one chord (It IS displayed and played as one chord), where one note has a 4 duration, and the others have a 2. duration. However, chords in lilypond can only be entered with one duration for all notes. That's due to lilypond's syntax and its parser. So, his question is if it is possible to assign a different duration to one note of a chord. Or rather, (since we all know that you can do everything with lilypond) what is the easiest way to achive this. > > Thanks for the other examples. I hadn't seen it notated like that > > before (I'm not a string player). I've attached a picture of the > > particular chord I was working on (for viola, alto clef, in 3/4). In > > this case I want to keep it explicitly notated and all in the same > > voice. > > There are dots on the half notes. Exactly. The half notes should be dotted, but the quarter note should also be part of the chord but not be dotted The latter is what this thread is all about. Cheers, Reinhold -- -- Reinhold Kainhofer, reinh...@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/ * Financial & Actuarial Math., Vienna Univ. of Technology, Austria * http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/, DVR: 0005886 * LilyPond, Music typesetting, http://www.lilypond.org ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: triple stop warnings
Jay Anderson wrote: I've attached a picture of the particular chord I was working on (for viola, alto clef, in 3/4). In this case I want to keep it explicitly notated and all in the same voice. I suppose that this is notionally 2. Something which sounds like that but looks like your picture is << c4*3 2. >> Cheers, Robin ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: triple stop warnings
<< c4*3 2. >> Mmm, that was where you started. Sorry for the noise. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: triple stop warnings
Reinhold Kainhofer writes: > Am Samstag, 12. Dezember 2009 08:35:24 schrieb David Kastrup: >> Jay Anderson writes: >> > Also for the other responses, sorry if I didn't explain it very well. >> > This is the only way I've seen triple (and quadruple) stops notated so >> > I thought it would be self-explanatory. >> >> Again: could you explain why you want to write 2. as a duration and then >> remove the dot manually? >> >> This does not really make sense at all. > > He does not want to write 2. as a duration. He wants to write the > whole thing as one chord (It IS displayed and played as one chord), > where one note has a 4 duration, and the others have a > 2. duration. Ah ok, he is removing the dot from the quarter note. Hm. -- David Kastrup ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: triple stop warnings
Am Samstag, 12. Dezember 2009 08:35:24 schrieb David Kastrup: > Again: could you explain why you want to write 2. as a duration and then > remove the dot manually? > > This does not really make sense at all. > > > Thanks for the other examples. I hadn't seen it notated like that > > before (I'm not a string player). I've attached a picture of the > > particular chord I was working on (for viola, alto clef, in 3/4). In > > this case I want to keep it explicitly notated and all in the same > > voice. > > There are dots on the half notes. Just as a reference: Gardner Read shows examples of such multi-stopped chords in his book "Music Notation" in Chapter 23 "String Notation" on p.389. Cheers, Reinhold -- -- Reinhold Kainhofer, reinh...@kainhofer.com, http://reinhold.kainhofer.com/ * Financial & Actuarial Math., Vienna Univ. of Technology, Austria * http://www.fam.tuwien.ac.at/, DVR: 0005886 * LilyPond, Music typesetting, http://www.lilypond.org ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: triple stop warnings
"Robin Bannister" writes:
>> << c4*3 2. >>
>
> Mmm, that was where you started. Sorry for the noise.
You can get a better-looking result at the cost of quadrupling the
number of warnings.
{
\clef "G" \relative c' {
\once \override NoteColumn #'ignore-collision = ##t
<2.>> }
}
This appears to do the right thing. Now if one finds some tweaks that
will also reassure Lilypond that this is the right thing, that might be
perfect.
--
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Re: triple stop warnings
2009/12/12 David Kastrup :
> "Robin Bannister" writes:
>
>>> << c4*3 2. >>
>>
>> Mmm, that was where you started. Sorry for the noise.
>
> You can get a better-looking result at the cost of quadrupling the
> number of warnings.
>
> {
> \clef "G" \relative c' {
> \once \override NoteColumn #'ignore-collision = ##t
> <2.>> }
> }
>
> This appears to do the right thing. Now if one finds some tweaks that
> will also reassure Lilypond that this is the right thing, that might be
> perfect.
It might be worth writing a specialist function for this; it's the
kind of notation that normally you want to disallow because the note
values don't all add up properly. In this special case, it is allowed
and has a particular meaning.
Phil
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Re: triple stop warnings
Just to sum up:
stop =
#(define-music-function (parser location music) (ly:music?)
(set! (ly:music-property music 'tweaks)
(acons 'before-line-breaking
(lambda (grob)
(let ((dots (ly:grob-object grob 'dot)))
(ly:grob-set-property! grob 'duration-log 2)
(and (ly:grob? dots)
(ly:grob-set-property! dots 'dot-count 0
(ly:music-property music 'tweaks)))
music)
\relative c {
\clef alto
\time 3/4
<\stop c g' e'>2.\fermata
<< c4 2.\fermata >>
\once \override NoteColumn #'ignore-collision = ##t
<< c,4 2.\fermata >>
<< c,4*3 2.\fermata >>
\once \override NoteColumn #'ignore-collision = ##t
<< c,4*3 2.\fermata >>
}
I think the \stop function works fine and doesn't have any warnings.
The chords with c4 in the bass have some undesirable extra space in
the measure. The c4*3 examples look the same (as far as I could tell)
as the \stop example just with the warnings. Thanks all.
-Jay
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