[LUTE] RV93 - which instrument?
The relatively low pitching of the mandora makes it an unlikely candidate as the instrument Vivaldi conceived for RV93 and also for RV 82 and 85 (all composed in the 1720s?): not only because of the resulting unidiomatic high tessitura of these 'leuto' pieces on the mandora but also because there is no evidence of this instrument being known in Italy around this time. Bear in mind that, although the large continuo gallichon in A (or B) had been around in Bohemia/Silesia/Bavaria from the 1680s, its smaller cousin the mandora tuned a forth higher (also, confusingly, often called gallichon) was only developed during the early 18th century with peak popularity in these and some other (generally North German) States in the 1740s to 70s. It is much more likely that the instrument required is the 18th century Italian 'leuto' (sometimes but by no means always in its arcileuto configuration) tuned, I and others have suggested, like the old lute in a nominal G (but sometimes A); an E tuning has also been proposed - tho' this is most unlikely in view of the string length of these instruments. The general size of these instruments can be deduced from contemporary iconography and there are good early/mid 18th century Italian paintings showing lutes being played (often just 7 course instruments - perhaps even old lutes?) suggesting string lengths close to old G lutes (ie generally low/mid 60s cm). A number of these instruments survive in modern collections and often in a pristine state by makers such as Radice. As first suggested by Bob Spencer these instruments would have played from staff notation (like Dalla Casa): often using the octave transposing G2 clef but also, I suspect, also using the normal bass clef for basso continuo. Whether Vivaldi was concerned about these pieces being played on a 'baroque' ie Dm lute rather than an instrument in the old tuning I think we will never truly know (since he didn't expect modern organologists to delve into the question) but what can be said is the the one lute work which he did indisputedly conceive for the Dm lute (the double concerto with viola d'amore) RV 540 was first performed in 1740 and its fits well on the instrument - much more so than the earlier 'leuto' works. We also know that the Dm lute made surprisingly very little impression in 18th century Italy. In short, if in doubt play these works on a 7 course lute (tuned in nominal G or A) but use overwound on the lowest courses, unlike the wholly gut strings of earlier generations. Also, I suspect, they employed a significantly higher string tension than earlier generations (the extant 18th century leuto seem more robust than earlier lutes; use of nails to pluck) but then, of course, you risk damaging the instrument.. Alternatively, if you really want to hear what contemporary audiences expected, get a special instrument made. MH --- On Mon, 3/1/11, Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu wrote: From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: RV93 materials? To: 'Lute List' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 3 January, 2011, 19:17 Because of the dedicatee in Bohemia, and the popularity of mandora amongst noble amateurs in that region of the world, Eric Liefeld (an occasional to this list) also speculated that they may have been performed on a mandora in D (see Liefeld, E. 2002/2003. Pondering Vivaldi's Leuto. LSA Quarterly 28(1):4-8.). I also like that there was a 5- to 7-course Italianate equivalent to mandora in the 18th c. that shared a great many construction features with mandolino, only being much bigger. As has been discussed here, naming such a thing leuto is not a difficult stretch given there was still an arcileuto active in Italian places at the time. Because of the solo parts' notation in violinist's short hand (single line on the treble clef), some have speculated that Vivaldi's leuto is a 5- or 6-course mandolino. In spite of playing mandolino, I don't think that's a very satisfying sound for the works to designate leuto (especially considering Vivaldi also designated other works mandolino). Personally, I really suspect Vivaldi didn't really care how the pieces were realized, especially since he wrote in simple melodic lines, leaving performer to flesh them out with whatever instrument s/he had on hand. A quick survey of a few efforts of which I'm aware: Lindberg with the Drottingholm Baroque Ensemble, Galfetti with Il Giardino Armonico, and Paul O'Dette in recent performances I've seen all use archlute. Julian Bream and his consort recorded it with his incarnation of renaissance lute and I've seen Ronn MacFarlane give an excellent performance of RV 93 on his. Oddly, when Paul O'Dette recorded these
[LUTE] RV93 Thanks
Many thanks Fabio and all others for responses on this topic ! As always, I am awed by the amount of scholarship and collected knowledge that resides within this dedicated group. I have learned the equivalent of months of study in a few short days! I sense that the discussion may continue, and I look forward to reading all of the various opinions. Thanks again, and Happy New Year! Tom Il 03/01/2011 18:15, t...@heartistrymusic.com ha scritto: I have heard many recordings of the guitar version with full orchestra, and I havealso performed the piece on guitar with full orchestra. Guitars and lutes were not designed for this. Even then I wanted a facsimile of the original, but was unable to locate one. Now that I am dabbling in the lute world I would like to re-visit this piece. Questions: 1. Given the time period, would it be most historically accurate to perform this on a baroque lute in baroque tuning? Or could one get by with an 8 course renaissance instrument? Vivaldi uses the word leuto Vivaldi to indicate an instrument able to realize the continuo. See, for example, his Concerto per la solennità di san Lorenzo RV 556. In my opinion (and in that of Rossella Perrone, who wrote a detailed preface to my edition of Vivaldi's works for lute and mandolin) that instrument was the archlute, i.e. the Italian baroque lute. But I guess that Vivaldi wouldn't mind if someone played it on the German baroque lute -- or even on the mandora, as Pietro Prosser suggested a few years ago. In her preface, Rossella Perrone writes: In writing almost certainly for the «leuto» that he knew, that is, the lute in use in Italy or the archlute, Vivaldi left the Bohemian patron or his lutist the task of adapting the part. In any event, it is significant that the three compositions dedicated to Wrtby, together with the concerto RV 540, can be played on both types of instrument and the keys of the works (C major in RV 82, G minor in RV 85, D major in RV 93 and D minor in RV 540) are comfortable for the archlute and the lute in D minor alike. Moreover, in the three compositions dedicated to the Bohemian count, considering the fact that the pieces were certainly destined for a chamber group, the lute part, unlike the concerto RV 540, in which the richer order of the score allows an explicit doubling of the roles of the instruments (as support for the basses in the ripieno and for the solista in the solos), is notated only in the treble clef without employing the bass clef. Nevertheless, since the lute part in score is always in the middle, between the violin and the bass, with the exception of the Larghetto of RV 82 (highlighting, with such an arrangement, the derivation of the violin part from the «leuto» part), one can put forward the hypothesis that the lutist of the period read from his own line and the bass line at the same time, perhaps playing both the melodic line as well as the basses for harmonic support. Ever since the publication of these compositions, as we were saying, the problem of the type of «leuto» employed by Vivaldi has come up. The confusion arose because of Vivaldi´s use of the treble clef. However, from the autograph RV 540, where the notes in the treble clef are written an octave higher and the basses on the true notes, we learn that the parts of the three compositions dedicated to Wrtby (all in G clef), were to be played by the archlute an octave lower and not on a small lute with a register that could go as high as D5. 2. Would Vivaldi have written standard notation that a lutenist would then have entabulated according to the instrument in their possession at the time? I guess so. There are some examples of this modus operandi in the lute literature of that time. There is an interesting article written by Pietro Prosser (in Italian, sorry): http://riviste.paviauniversitypress.it/index.php/phi/article/view/05-0 2-INT04/44 3. For correct volume and tonal balance, what would be the most appropriate (and historically correct) number of violins, etc.? String trio? Two per desk?... The Concerto RV 93 is scored for two violins, lute and basso. Best regards, Fabio To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistry.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362
[LUTE] Re: RV93 materials?
Dalla Casa can be taken as ensemble music, not all of it is solo. Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von howard posner Gesendet: Montag, 3. Januar 2011 22:08 An: Lute List Betreff: [LUTE] Re: RV93 materials? On Jan 3, 2011, at 12:16 PM, franco pavan wrote: Only a word about the notation. We have hundreds of pieces for italian archlute from the XVIII-Century. All the pieces are written with the same notation used by Vivaldi. It was the common way in Italy to write the music for our instrument until the time of Rossini. Greetings Franco I think by pieces for Italian archlute Franco means ensemble music. There is solo archlute music in tablature, such as Zamboni's book. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Flow My Tears
Happy New Year one and all, Would anyone have a copy of Dowland's Flow My Tears in Fronimo file format they'd be kind enough to send to me? Thank you in advance. Regards, Craig To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RV93 - which instrument?
See below. - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Lute Dmth lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 4:39 AM Subject: [LUTE] RV93 - which instrument? SNIP It is much more likely that the instrument required is the 18th century Italian 'leuto' (sometimes but by no means always in its arcileuto configuration) tuned, I and others have suggested, like the old lute in a nominal G (but sometimes A); an E tuning has also been proposed - tho' this is most unlikely in view of the string length of these instruments. The general size of these instruments can be deduced from contemporary iconography and there are good early/mid 18th century Italian paintings showing lutes being played (often just 7 course instruments - perhaps even old lutes?) suggesting string lengths close to old G lutes (ie generally low/mid 60s cm). A number of these instruments survive in modern collections and often in a pristine state by makers such as Radice. As first suggested by Bob Spencer these instruments would have played from staff notation (like Dalla Casa): often using the octave transposing G2 clef but also, I suspect, also using the normal bass clef for basso continuo. Whether Vivaldi was concerned about these pieces being played on a 'baroque' ie Dm lute rather than an instrument in the old tuning I think we will never truly know (since he didn't expect modern organologists to delve into the question) but what can be said is the the one lute work which he did indisputedly conceive for the Dm lute (the double concerto with viola d'amore) RV 540 was first performed in 1740 and its fits well on the instrument - much more so than the earlier 'leuto' works. We also know that the Dm lute made surprisingly very little impression in 18th century Italy. In short, if in doubt play these works on a 7 course lute (tuned in nominal G or A) but use overwound on the lowest courses, unlike the wholly gut strings of earlier generations. Also, I suspect, they employed a significantly higher string tension than earlier generations (the extant 18th century leuto seem more robust than earlier lutes; use of nails to pluck) but then, of course, you risk damaging the instrument.. Alternatively, if you really want to hear what contemporary audiences expected, get a special instrument made. MH Bob Spencer may have been thinking about the _Sinfonia à Solo di Archiliuto_ (lute with basso continuo), transcribed here from a score formerly in Bob's library. http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/sinfonia.html He purchased it in 1956 (ex-Harrach?), along with two concertinos (one with organo continuo--see below) for the same instrument, and the Lauffensteiner suite published by the Lute Society. The instrument sounds an octave lower in the treble clef, and at pitch in the bass clef. The works are thought to be Bohemian in provenance. (If you download the Sinfonia from my site, use the *.PDF files at the bottom of the page--they reproduce the notation clearly.) It shouldn't be difficult to determine the tuning. Beware of the Malipiero editions for Ricordi (the edition you are most likely to encounter in a music library) because he often does not indicate the full lute part. Almost always Vivaldi has the lute playing col basso in the Tutti. That is, the lute plays basso continuo. Malipiero gives rests, usually without explanbation! Peter Segal (Production d'Oz) gets it right in his excellent editions of the Vivaldi pieces (score and parts), but in a bow to guitarists uses the treble clef (Vivaldi's manuscripts use bass clef when the lute plays basso continuo). I notice in at least one of the Vivaldi score (lute, mandolin) the strings are instructed to use mutes (con sordino). There are other lute concertos which likewise call for muted strings. One of the Vivaldi concertos calls for organo continuo, and that is what Paul O'Dette uses in that early CD. I don't hear him play continuo in the tuttis, and he seems to follow Malipiero's faulty score in that regard. AJN To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Flow My Tears
Hi, Craig, Look here: [1]http://gerbode.net/ Once you get to the list of lute music, it's in Dowland's 2nd book(e). Or directly, in a variety of formats: [2]http://gerbode.net/ft2/composers/Dowland/songs/2nd_book_of_ayres/02_ flow_my_tears/ Best to all, and keep playing, Chris. On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 1:21 PM, [3]co...@medievalist.org wrote: Happy New Year one and all, Would anyone have a copy of Dowland's Flow My Tears in Fronimo file format they'd be kind enough to send to me? Thank you in advance. Regards, Craig To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://gerbode.net/ 2. http://gerbode.net/ft2/composers/Dowland/songs/2nd_book_of_ayres/02_flow_my_tears/ 3. mailto:co...@medievalist.org 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Flow My Tears
Thank you Chris. Regards, Craig To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Mimo in action
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_Cwe_pz0Uo -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RV93 - which instrument?
You can always try to assign a particular type of instrument in an ideal tuning, but the term lute, in any language form, is a generic term for a family-context of instruments. Unfortunately with Vivaldi, the fact that it may be difficult to play or go off the range is absolutely not relevant, as is the case in his other concertos. Remember this is the guy who writes the violin parts in bass clef sometimes, which you would need a reverse capo for. Not to mention the recorder concertos, and so on. Even octave doublings, alas, do not give us a real clue, but the mandolin fits the range nicely, and so do other lutes. Some people play it C major. As for mutes, looking at Juditha Triumphans, we see, as elsewhere in the canon, that V. calls for lead mutes for his mandolin aria. These lead mutes are perfect for example the slow mvt, and if covered with leather are safe to use. Some scholars venture that mutes were not used on the cello in the baroque period, but that of course is not true; however, they may have been less common, especially if using all gut strings for the cello. So you can play it on any lute, and if you wish to be in the same octave, you can play it on a smaller lute, and if you want it in meantone, the mandolin tuning, with the high G ( or even E, but the G seems better to me), works perfect with no tastini which are a chore on the mandolin. MT works because you have open B and E in the middle courses, and if you tune your archlute 4th and 5th courses down a half step that works very nicely as well, also for the modulating bit. Remember also that V did not write violone parts for 99 percent of his works, and in the extremely rare place where the violone pops up, it may be a cello or church bass. And, lastly, one of the many, many meanings for concerto is quartet, so it is fine to play it as a quartet of two violins, lute and BC. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Mimo in action
Thx for this one!!! Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us Gesendet: Mittwoch, 5. Januar 2011 00:38 An: alexander Cc: Ron Andrico; howardpos...@ca.rr.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Mimo in action http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_Cwe_pz0Uo -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Mimo in action
Thank you for posting this. These are beautiful people providing a wonderful product! -Ned On Jan 4, 2011, at 6:38 PM, dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_Cwe_pz0Uo -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] A New Series
I have started a new series of Ukrocentric pieces in the renaissance tuning. It is aptly named Cantiones Sarmatoruthenicae. First crop - http://www.torban.org/sarmatoruthenicae/images/300.pdf http://www.torban.org/sarmatoruthenicae/audio/300.mp3 http://www.torban.org/sarmatoruthenicae/images/301.pdf http://www.torban.org/sarmatoruthenicae/audio/301.mp3 Enjoy, RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
