[LUTE] Re: Ugga, Agga
According to Wikipedia, here are some instances: the second movement (Largo) of Beethoven's Third Piano Concerto (Op. 37) (1800), to notate rapid scales.[3] Another example is in Mozart's Variations on "Je suis Lindor" (1778), where four of them are used in the slow (molto adagio) twelfth variation.[4][5] A further example occurs (Grave.Adagio non troppo) in Jan Ladislav Dussek's (1760–1812) Fifth Piano Sonata, Op. 10 No. 2.[6] They also occur (Largo) in Vivaldi's (1678–1741) Concerto, RV 444,[3][7] and in bar 15 of François Couperin's Second Prelude from L'art de toucher le clavecin(1716).[8] A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. > On May 14, 2018, at 6:47 AM, Rainer wrote: > > demisemihemidemisemiquaver To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ugga, Agga
Dear Rainer, these demihemiwatchamacallits were indeed used for printing music in Beethoven's time, but it is also true that they have almost completely fallen out of use. Modern editions of late eighteenth/early nineteenth century piano music augment the old values ... Best Joachim P.S.: I have seen some Mozart in very black, but I do not recall which KV that was ... Lektorat & Korrektorat Dr. Joachim Lüdtke Blumenstraße 20 D-90762 Fürth Tel.: 0911 / 976 45 20 Mail: jo.lued...@t-online.de www.lektorat-luedtke.de Mitglied im Verband der freien Lektorinnen und Lektoren www.vfll.de www.lektoren.de/profil/joachim-luedtke -Original-Nachricht- Betreff: [LUTE] Ugga, Agga Datum: 2018-05-14T15:49:02+0200 Von: "Rainer" An: "Lute net" As we all know a demisemihemidemisemiquaver is called Zweihundertsechsundfünfzigstel in German or two hundred fifty-sixth note in American English. The German WIKI entry says such note values are not used. I am sure this is nonsense. I seem to remember to have seen demisemihemidemisemiquavers somewhere - in a Beethoven piano sonata? Does anybody remember? Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ugga, Agga
> On May 14, 2018, at 8:49 AM, John Mardinly wrote: > > According to Wikipedia, here are some instances: the second movement > (Largo) of Beethoven's Third Piano Concerto (Op. 37) (1800), to notate rapid > scales I just looked at/listened to it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3qEckWYUDE and if there are any actual 256th notes, I missed them (entirely possible, given that online scores can be fuzzy to the point where I could miss six beams instead of five) although there are some 128th-note tuplets which I suppose are faster than regular 128th notes. (And of course, I may have been looking at a cleaned-up later edition.) The whole thing makes my eyes ache. Critics complained about Beethoven’s use of such bizarre note values. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ugga, Agga
Frankly speaking, the main reason for my post was the ridiculous demisemihemidemisemiquaver :) Rainer On 15.05.2018 04:12, howard posner wrote: On May 14, 2018, at 8:49 AM, John Mardinly wrote: According to Wikipedia, here are some instances:the second movement (Largo) of Beethoven's Third Piano Concerto (Op. 37) (1800), to notate rapid scales I just looked at/listened to it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3qEckWYUDE and if there are any actual 256th notes, I missed them (entirely possible, given that online scores can be fuzzy to the point where I could miss six beams instead of five) although there are some 128th-note tuplets which I suppose are faster than regular 128th notes. (And of course, I may have been looking at a cleaned-up later edition.) The whole thing makes my eyes ache. Critics complained about Beethoven’s use of such bizarre note values. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ugga, Agga
OK, it gets worse: the last part of the Wikipedia article that initially ignored mentions notes down to 4096th with 10 beams: The next note value shorter than the two hundred fifty-sixth note is the five hundred twelfth note with seven flags or beams; it is half as long as the two hundred fifty-sixth note. After this would come the one thousand twenty-fourth note (eight flags or beams), the two thousand forty-eighth note (nine flags or beams), the four thousand ninety-sixth note (ten flags or beams), and so on indefinitely, with each note half the length of its predecessor. The shortest note value to have ever been used in a published work is the 1024th note (notated incorrectly as a 2048th) in Anthony Philip Heinrich's Toccata Grande Cromatica from The Sylviad, Set 2, written around 1825; 256th notes occur frequently in this piece, and some 512th notes also appear; the passage is marked grave but the composer also intended a huge! ritardando.[3]For comparison, the shortest notated duration supported by Finale is a 4096th note,[9] while LilyPond can write notes with up to 27 beams, as short as a 1073741824th (= 2−30) note.[10] 512th notes are easily accessible in Sibelius as of version 5. Brian Ferneyhough uses many note and rest values well smaller than 256th in his 2014 work Inconjunctions. In addition to occasional 512th and 1024th rests, there are multiple examples of 4096th notes. Many of these are also contained within tuplets, making their ratio to the whole note even smaller.[11] So now what; belly laugh or enormous groan... A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. > On May 15, 2018, at 3:25 AM, Rainer wrote: > > Frankly speaking, the main reason for my post was the ridiculous > demisemihemidemisemiquaver :) > > Rainer > > > On 15.05.2018 04:12, howard posner wrote: >>> On May 14, 2018, at 8:49 AM, John Mardinly wrote: >>> >>> According to Wikipedia, here are some instances:the second movement >>> (Largo) of Beethoven's Third Piano Concerto (Op. 37) (1800), to notate >>> rapid scales >> I just looked at/listened to it: >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3Dl3qEckWYUDE&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=dSRIIS6aD_TrYLyG1DX8zCz_6J04Ig6QkqUjyAu-6iE&s=Fv7MI3cq_LGyMLX8l4TLUKrv0DEUHFJiL7Da8-HEm80&e= >> and if there are any actual 256th notes, I missed them (entirely possible, >> given that online scores can be fuzzy to the point where I could miss six >> beams instead of five) although there are some 128th-note tuplets which I >> suppose are faster than regular 128th notes. (And of course, I may have >> been looking at a cleaned-up later edition.) The whole thing makes my eyes >> ache. Critics complained about Beethoven’s use of such bizarre note values. > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=dSRIIS6aD_TrYLyG1DX8zCz_6J04Ig6QkqUjyAu-6iE&s=WNK1zj-ZekbgU7ssypZ3o57rWUxYLWvJtv9vYkIS0Ss&e=
[LUTE] Re: Ugga, Agga
Dude... I bet Conlon Nancarrow has some even shorter values... though the interest in it would be only theoretical... Am 15.05.2018 um 17:44 schrieb John Mardinly: OK, it gets worse: the last part of the Wikipedia article that initially ignored mentions notes down to 4096th with 10 beams: The next note value shorter than the two hundred fifty-sixth note is the five hundred twelfth note with seven flags or beams; it is half as long as the two hundred fifty-sixth note. After this would come the one thousand twenty-fourth note (eight flags or beams), the two thousand forty-eighth note (nine flags or beams), the four thousand ninety-sixth note (ten flags or beams), and so on indefinitely, with each note half the length of its predecessor. The shortest note value to have ever been used in a published work is the 1024th note (notated incorrectly as a 2048th) in Anthony Philip Heinrich's Toccata Grande Cromatica from The Sylviad, Set 2, written around 1825; 256th notes occur frequently in this piece, and some 512th notes also appear; the passage is marked grave but the composer also intended a hu! ge ritardando.[3]For comparison, the shortest notated duration supported by Finale is a 4096th note,[9] while LilyPond can write notes with up to 27 beams, as short as a 1073741824th (= 2−30) note.[10] 512th notes are easily accessible in Sibelius as of version 5. Brian Ferneyhough uses many note and rest values well smaller than 256th in his 2014 work Inconjunctions. In addition to occasional 512th and 1024th rests, there are multiple examples of 4096th notes. Many of these are also contained within tuplets, making their ratio to the whole note even smaller.[11] So now what; belly laugh or enormous groan... A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. On May 15, 2018, at 3:25 AM, Rainer wrote: Frankly speaking, the main reason for my post was the ridiculous demisemihemidemisemiquaver :) Rainer On 15.05.2018 04:12, howard posner wrote: On May 14, 2018, at 8:49 AM, John Mardinly wrote: According to Wikipedia, here are some instances:the second movement (Largo) of Beethoven's Third Piano Concerto (Op. 37) (1800), to notate rapid scales I just looked at/listened to it: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.youtube.com_watch-3Fv-3Dl3qEckWYUDE&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=dSRIIS6aD_TrYLyG1DX8zCz_6J04Ig6QkqUjyAu-6iE&s=Fv7MI3cq_LGyMLX8l4TLUKrv0DEUHFJiL7Da8-HEm80&e= and if there are any actual 256th notes, I missed them (entirely possible, given that online scores can be fuzzy to the point where I could miss six beams instead of five) although there are some 128th-note tuplets which I suppose are faster than regular 128th notes. (And of course, I may have been looking at a cleaned-up later edition.) The whole thing makes my eyes ache. Critics complained about Beethoven’s use of such bizarre note values. To get on or off this list see list information at https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=dSRIIS6aD_TrYLyG1DX8zCz_6J04Ig6QkqUjyAu-6iE&s=WNK1zj-ZekbgU7ssypZ3o57rWUxYLWvJtv9vYkIS0Ss&e=
[LUTE] Re: Ugga, Agga
> On May 15, 2018, at 4:43 PM, Tristan von Neumann > wrote: > > I bet Conlon Nancarrow has some even shorter values I thought so too, so I was just looking at a Nancarrow score this morning. The note values were larger than you’d expect because he makes the half-note the basic beat and uses quick tempos. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ugga, Agga
Another question - of course - what is the smallest note value used in Renaissance tablature. What is the smallest note value used in Baroque tablature. There are lots of 32nd [thirty-second note] but I have not found a single 64th in my tab files. Note: a stem with 5 flags is a 32nd and a stem with six flags is a 64th. Rainer PS I would not count a pavan in 4/8 instead of 4/2 :) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Ugga, Agga
Lots of 5's (1/32) in Cosens. Leonard -Original Message- From: Rainer To: lutelist Net Sent: Wed, May 16, 2018 5:39 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ugga, Agga Another question - of course - what is the smallest note value used in Renaissance tablature. What is the smallest note value used in Baroque tablature. There are lots of 32nd [thirty-second note] but I have not found a single 64th in my tab files. Note: a stem with 5 flags is a 32nd and a stem with six flags is a 64th. Rainer PS I would not count a pavan in 4/8 instead of 4/2 :) To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html