Re: [Mailman-Users] Yahoo - what chance of change now?

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Peter Shute writes:

 > I'm interested to know what's in store because our current tactic
 > is to reject new Yahoo and AOL subscribers, encourage existing ones
 > to get new addresses, and to forward their messages by hand. This
 > is obviously not going to work if other providers gradually start
 > doing it too.

Well, Gmail clearly has decided that they know better than Yahoo!
which messages need to be rejected.  Although the only way to make a
computer totally secure is to pull out the plug, I suspect that they
are more secure against contact list theft than Yahoo! or AOL.  I
think their tech staff has more status than the tech staff at Yahoo!
and AOL, so they're less likely to roll out new features that can be
hacked because of management pressure.  It may be a long time before
Gmail gets hacked that way.  Ditto Microsoft.

Google also has their "Don't Be Evil" baggage to contend with.  They
may be less likely to make decisions known to involve substantial
collateral damage.

 > If our cpanel host ever upgrades then we'll be able to decide on a
 > more permanent solution.

Somebody said cPanel has already upgraded to Mailman 2.1.18-1, so at
least your host does have an upgrade path.


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[Mailman-Users] Yahoo - what chance of change now?

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Peter Shute writes:

 > It's now about 2 months since Yahoo introduced their DMARC reject
 > policy. I'm taking this as a sign that it's unlikely that they'll
 > ever reverse the decision

On the DMARC list at IETF, a senior Yahoo! sysadmin said that because
the attack based on stolen address book data continues, Yahoo! 
management sees no option but to continue.  Even reducing to
"p=quarantine" is out of the question.  The fact that Yahoo! Groups
has started to work around DMARC authentication (by moving the
author's address into the display name, a tactic explicitly deprecated
by the DMARC consortium's own FAQ) suggests they're in it for the long
haul.

 > Or that any mailbox providers other than Yahoo and AOL have started
 > doing it, or have indicated that they ever/never will?

Comcast made a point of saying in response to a question at a press
conference that they have no intention of doing so.  It's hardly
trustworthy (the DMARC designers can't be happy about the bad press),
but both one of the editors of the current draft and a senior IETF
engineer whose name pops up all over the email-related RFCs have
posted comments that Yahoo! has made no friends for itself.

However, according to a graph I saw that described the attack on AOL,
spoofing of AOL addresses ballooned to about 5X the volume preceding
the attack, and presumably all of the new spoof messages were targeted
to acquaintences since the attackers are known to have obtained
millions of AOL users' contact lists.  Not only is that attack huge,
one would suppose it's more effective than broadcast spam or phishing.

I would guess that any large provider that has a security breach like
those at Yahoo! and AOL would be tempted to publish a "p=reject"
policy, including Comcast.  IANAL, but I have to wonder if they're not
at substantial legal risk for contributory negligence (since
apparently the addresses were stolen from the providers, although
they're being coy about that) if they don't do something about this
relatively effective form of abuse.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Yahoo - what chance of change now?

[Peter Shute]

Based on that, it's here forever, but will only spread to other mailbox 
providers if they experience a surge in spoofing.

I'm interested to know what's in store because our current tactic is to reject 
new Yahoo and AOL subscribers, encourage existing ones to get new addresses, 
and to forward their messages by hand. This is obviously not going to work if 
other providers gradually start doing it too. 

If our cpanel host ever upgrades then we'll be able to decide on a more 
permanent solution.

Peter Shute

> -Original Message-
> From: Stephen J. Turnbull [mailto:step...@xemacs.org] 
> Sent: Tuesday, 10 June 2014 12:44 PM
> To: Peter Shute
> Cc: 'mailman-users@python.org'
> Subject: [Mailman-Users] Yahoo - what chance of change now?
> 
> Peter Shute writes:
> 
>  > It's now about 2 months since Yahoo introduced their DMARC 
> reject  > policy. I'm taking this as a sign that it's 
> unlikely that they'll  > ever reverse the decision
> 
> On the DMARC list at IETF, a senior Yahoo! sysadmin said that 
> because the attack based on stolen address book data 
> continues, Yahoo! 
> management sees no option but to continue.  Even reducing to 
> "p=quarantine" is out of the question.  The fact that Yahoo! 
> Groups has started to work around DMARC authentication (by 
> moving the author's address into the display name, a tactic 
> explicitly deprecated by the DMARC consortium's own FAQ) 
> suggests they're in it for the long haul.
> 
>  > Or that any mailbox providers other than Yahoo and AOL 
> have started  > doing it, or have indicated that they ever/never will?
> 
> Comcast made a point of saying in response to a question at a 
> press conference that they have no intention of doing so.  
> It's hardly trustworthy (the DMARC designers can't be happy 
> about the bad press), but both one of the editors of the 
> current draft and a senior IETF engineer whose name pops up 
> all over the email-related RFCs have posted comments that 
> Yahoo! has made no friends for itself.
> 
> However, according to a graph I saw that described the attack 
> on AOL, spoofing of AOL addresses ballooned to about 5X the 
> volume preceding the attack, and presumably all of the new 
> spoof messages were targeted to acquaintences since the 
> attackers are known to have obtained millions of AOL users' 
> contact lists.  Not only is that attack huge, one would 
> suppose it's more effective than broadcast spam or phishing.
> 
> I would guess that any large provider that has a security 
> breach like those at Yahoo! and AOL would be tempted to 
> publish a "p=reject"
> policy, including Comcast.  IANAL, but I have to wonder if 
> they're not at substantial legal risk for contributory 
> negligence (since apparently the addresses were stolen from 
> the providers, although they're being coy about that) if they 
> don't do something about this relatively effective form of abuse.
> 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Bogus/forged subscription attempts: request for comments and possibly data

[Robert Heller]

At Mon, 9 Jun 2014 21:48:38 -0400 "Perry E. Metzger"  wrote:

> 
> On Mon, 09 Jun 2014 17:01:19 -0700 Mark Sapiro 
> wrote:
> > They are spammers attempting to subscribe to your list(s) via POSTs
> > to the web subscribe CGI. Presumably if they successfully
> > subscribe, they will then spam the list.
> 
> BTW, I don't quite understand this. Why would splatting random
> addresses at you help them? Why not just pick real addresses they
> control? Successfully subscribing is easy, and generating seemingly
> random addresses won't get them subscribed since the addresses will
> never get a confirmation round trip.

It depends. Some 'spammers' use scripts that seek out  tags and then issue POST requests to the action= attribute. In some cases
this results in 'posting' content of some sort to web sites (eg comment /
forum spam). Or it generates E-Mails to someone who might respond to the
content. In other cases it is a form of denial of service attack, overwhelming
the server. In some cases, it is totally 'mindless', eg generated data using
field names as a guide as to what to generate: such as random E-Mail addresses
for an field with a name like 'email', and so on.


> 
> Perry

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Deepwoods Software-- http://www.deepsoft.com/
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/\  www.asciiribbon.org   -- against proprietary attachments



 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Bogus/forged subscription attempts: request for comments and possibly data

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Perry E. Metzger writes:

 > BTW, I don't quite understand this. Why would splatting random
 > addresses at you help them? Why not just pick real addresses they
 > control? Successfully subscribing is easy, and generating seemingly
 > random addresses won't get them subscribed since the addresses will
 > never get a confirmation round trip.

Spammers are generally greedy but not bright?

BTW, to answer Rick's question, yes, I'm seeing them too, in the all-
lowercase form, on some but not all lists.  I'M not sure why they pick
the lists they do.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Bogus/forged subscription attempts: request for comments and possibly data

[Peter Shute]

Who said spamming has to be logical? I once read that spammers often use 
outdated, stolen, spamming software that spams in ways that were obsolete years 
ago.

Peter Shute

> -Original Message-
> From: Mailman-Users 
> [mailto:mailman-users-bounces+pshute=nuw.org...@python.org] 
> On Behalf Of Perry E. Metzger
> Sent: Tuesday, 10 June 2014 11:49 AM
> To: Mark Sapiro
> Cc: mailman-users@python.org
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Bogus/forged subscription 
> attempts: request for comments and possibly data
> 
> On Mon, 09 Jun 2014 17:01:19 -0700 Mark Sapiro 
> wrote:
> > They are spammers attempting to subscribe to your list(s) 
> via POSTs to 
> > the web subscribe CGI. Presumably if they successfully 
> subscribe, they 
> > will then spam the list.
> 
> BTW, I don't quite understand this. Why would splatting 
> random addresses at you help them? Why not just pick real 
> addresses they control? Successfully subscribing is easy, and 
> generating seemingly random addresses won't get them 
> subscribed since the addresses will never get a confirmation 
> round trip.
> 
> Perry
> -- 
> Perry E. Metzger  pe...@piermont.com
> --
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0nuw.org.au
> 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Bogus/forged subscription attempts: request for comments and possibly data

[Perry E. Metzger]

On Mon, 09 Jun 2014 17:01:19 -0700 Mark Sapiro 
wrote:
> They are spammers attempting to subscribe to your list(s) via POSTs
> to the web subscribe CGI. Presumably if they successfully
> subscribe, they will then spam the list.

BTW, I don't quite understand this. Why would splatting random
addresses at you help them? Why not just pick real addresses they
control? Successfully subscribing is easy, and generating seemingly
random addresses won't get them subscribed since the addresses will
never get a confirmation round trip.

Perry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Bogus/forged subscription attempts: request for comments and possibly data

[Perry E. Metzger]

On Mon, 09 Jun 2014 17:01:19 -0700 Mark Sapiro 
wrote:
> They are spammers attempting to subscribe to your list(s) via POSTs
> to the web subscribe CGI. Presumably if they successfully
> subscribe, they will then spam the list.
> 
> If you have Mailman 2.1.16 or later, you can mitigate this by
> setting
> 
> SUBSCRIBE_FORM_SECRET = "Some site specific string"

Another option might be using fail2ban. Almost all of my attackers
come from the same few addresses in Vietnam. A few black hole routes
and they were history. I haven't bothered with fail2ban yet, but it
probably is a reasonable option.

(Mine all have ALLCAPS@ addresses.)

Perry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Bogus/forged subscription attempts: request for comments and possibly data

[Mark Sapiro]

On 06/09/2014 04:11 PM, Rich Kulawiec wrote:
> 
> This is a first-cut, mildly sloppy script that will try to match some
> patterns of interest that I've noticed in my "subscribe" log and that
> might be in yours.
...
> 
> Here is what the last 10 lines of its output look like on my system:
> 
> Jun 06 00:14:32 2014  ehkfioxlkrr   62.210.226.131
> Jun 06 13:23:16 2014  norchmecn   86.51.26.20
> Jun 07 02:06:20 2014  eljult   86.51.26.11
> Jun 07 13:21:20 2014  dvlevbpj   210.14.138.102
> Jun 07 15:41:10 2014  sdbdelkv   86.51.26.18
> Jun 07 16:17:10 2014  yqrebrgipo   86.51.26.20
> Jun 08 06:37:12 2014  cihjwn   202.143.148.58
> Jun 08 06:55:47 2014  ehxvwgrboo   86.51.26.21
> Jun 08 23:47:58 2014  qqpluym   190.14.219.166
> Jun 09 16:44:15 2014  mloepuj   172.245.142.194
> 
> This is forged gibberish, of course.
...
> I'm curious.  First, is anybody else seeing these?


Some people are.


> Second, does2.1.16 or later
> anyone have a theory as to their purpose?


They are spammers attempting to subscribe to your list(s) via POSTs to
the web subscribe CGI. Presumably if they successfully subscribe, they
will then spam the list.

If you have Mailman 2.1.16 or later, you can mitigate this by setting

SUBSCRIBE_FORM_SECRET = "Some site specific string"

in mm_cfg.py. See .

This is from the NEWS file:

There is a new mm_cfg.py setting SUBSCRIBE_FORM_SECRET which will put
a dynamically generated, hidden hash in the listinfo subscribe form and
check it upon submission.  Setting this will prevent automated processes
(bots) from successfully POSTing web subscribes without first retrieving
and parsing the form from the listinfo page.  The form must also be
submitted no later than FORM_LIFETIME nor no earlier than
SUBSCRIBE_FORM_MIN_TIME after retrieval.  Note that enabling this will
break any static subscribe forms on your site.  See the description in
Defaults.py for more info.  (LP: #1082746)

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[Mailman-Users] Bogus/forged subscription attempts: request for comments and possibly data

[Rich Kulawiec]

If you (Mailman site operators) have a spare moment, please try running this:

cut here--
#!/bin/sh
cd /var/local/mailman/logs

egrep "pending [a-z]+ <[a-z]+@[a-z]+\.com>" subscribe \
| egrep -v "@gmail.com" \
| egrep -v "@hotmail.com" \
| egrep -v "@msn.com" \
| egrep -v "@aol.com" \
| egrep -v "@yahoo.com" \
| sed -e "s/(.*pending//"

cut here--

This is a first-cut, mildly sloppy script that will try to match some
patterns of interest that I've noticed in my "subscribe" log and that
might be in yours.  The egrep clauses are in there to throw away data
not of interest; the sed snips off the mailing list name and some other
irrelevancies.

Here is what the last 10 lines of its output look like on my system:

Jun 06 00:14:32 2014  ehkfioxlkrr   62.210.226.131
Jun 06 13:23:16 2014  norchmecn   86.51.26.20
Jun 07 02:06:20 2014  eljult   86.51.26.11
Jun 07 13:21:20 2014  dvlevbpj   210.14.138.102
Jun 07 15:41:10 2014  sdbdelkv   86.51.26.18
Jun 07 16:17:10 2014  yqrebrgipo   86.51.26.20
Jun 08 06:37:12 2014  cihjwn   202.143.148.58
Jun 08 06:55:47 2014  ehxvwgrboo   86.51.26.21
Jun 08 23:47:58 2014  qqpluym   190.14.219.166
Jun 09 16:44:15 2014  mloepuj   172.245.142.194

This is forged gibberish, of course.   The user real name is always a
lowercase alpha string.  The email address is also, both LHS and RHS,
and the TLD is always .com.  (Hence the regexp in the first egrep.)

I'm curious.  First, is anybody else seeing these?  Second, does
anyone have a theory as to their purpose?  And third, is there any
value in combining data to see if patterns emerge?  (I have some
privacy concerns about that last one, since real email addresses
might leak through, so I suspect if we decided to do that, it would
be best to remove everything but the timestamp and IP address.  I doubt
the gibberish has any real explanatory value anyway.)

---rsk
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[Mailman-Users] Yahoo - what chance of change now?

[Peter Shute]

It's now about 2 months since Yahoo introduced their DMARC reject policy. I'm 
taking this as a sign that it's unlikely that they'll ever reverse the decision

Has anyone heard anything that might indicate otherwise? Or that any mailbox 
providers other than Yahoo and AOL have started doing it, or have indicated 
that they ever/never will?

Peter Shute
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Export all subsribers

[Barry S. Finkel]

On 06/09/2014 01:16 PM, EyeLand wrote:

>
>urlhttp://vps1.ournet.biz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailman
>emailmail...@vps1.ournet.biz
>control panel ISPConfighttps://vps1.ournet.biz:8080/
>
>now I want only to export all emails (10 000) to txt file from that mailman 
list



If I interpret the poster's request, EyeLand wants all of the messages
that have been posted to the list in a .txt file.  If this is the case,
then the list archives in

 $listname.mbox/$listname.mbox

has all of the posted mail messages in mbox format.  That is essentially
a .txt file with a

 "From email address date"

line beginning in column 1 at the start of each message in the file.

--Barry Finkel
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Export all subsribers

[Mark Sapiro]

On 06/09/2014 01:16 PM, EyeLand wrote:
> 
> url http://vps1.ournet.biz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailman
> email mail...@vps1.ournet.biz
> control panel ISPConfig https://vps1.ournet.biz:8080/
> 
> now I want only to export all emails (10 000) to txt file from that mailman 
> list


First, do

list_members --help

to see what all the options are, or based on your earlier reported
'locate' results you could do

man list_members

Then you may want something like

list_members mailman > /path/to/output/file

if you only want email addresses or maybe

list_members mailman -f > /path/to/output/file

if you want the member's names if available.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Export all subsribers

[EyeLand]

2014-06-09 22:51 GMT+03:00 Mark Sapiro :
> If this is cPanel, You need to use the cPanel list name of the form
> mailman_host. I.e., it's usually the list's posting address with the '@'
> replaced by '_'. In any case, it's the same name as used in URLs like
> http://HOST/mailman/listinfo/LIST_HOST.
>
> (and please don't post with digest subjects.)

url http://vps1.ournet.biz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailman
email mail...@vps1.ournet.biz
control panel ISPConfig https://vps1.ournet.biz:8080/

now I want only to export all emails (10 000) to txt file from that mailman list

>Since whatever packaged Mailman this is has put (copies of? links to?)
>mailman's bin commands in /usr/sbin, as root you can probably just do
>
>list_members mailman
>
>or you can always do
>
>/usr/lib/mailman/bin/list_
>members mailman
>
>(apparently ~mailman doesn't resolve to /usr/lib/mailman)

yes I open putty as root
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Export all subsribers

[Mark Sapiro]

On 06/09/2014 12:49 PM, EyeLand wrote:
> 
> root@vps1:~# locate list_members
> /usr/lib/mailman/bin/list_members
> /usr/sbin/list_members


Since whatever packaged Mailman this is has put (copies of? links to?)
mailman's bin commands in /usr/sbin, as root you can probably just do

list_members mailman

or you can always do

/usr/lib/mailman/bin/list_members mailman

(apparently ~mailman doesn't resolve to /usr/lib/mailman)

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Export all subsribers

[Mark Sapiro]

On 06/09/2014 11:32 AM, EyeLand wrote:
> 
> root@vps1:~#  ~mailman/bin/list_members mailman
> -bash: ~mailman/bin/list_members: No such file or directory
> 
> OR
> 
> root@vps1:~#  ~mailman/bin/list_members mailman@host
> -bash: ~mailman/bin/list_members: No such file or directory
> 
> where I can read right name of my mailing list?


If this is cPanel, You need to use the cPanel list name of the form
mailman_host. I.e., it's usually the list's posting address with the '@'
replaced by '_'. In any case, it's the same name as used in URLs like
http://HOST/mailman/listinfo/LIST_HOST.

(and please don't post with digest subjects.)

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Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman-Users Digest, Vol 124, Issue 8

[EyeLand]

2014-06-09 21:42 GMT+03:00 Gerry Grieve :
> This complaint is NOT about the list name but about the
> program name “~mailman/bin/list_members mailman”, ie the
> shell did not find list_memebers with this path.
>
> Use the “locate” command to find your your mailmain/bin directory.
>
> ie
>>gt; locate list_members
>
>
> ttfn
>
> --
> Gerry R. Grieve  ph: 604-822-4320
> Systems Manager,fax:  604-822-5324
> Physics&  Astronomy, UBC
> 6224 Agricultural Rd.
> Vancouver, BC, Canada
> V6T 1Z1

root@vps1:~# locate list_members
/usr/lib/mailman/bin/list_members
/usr/sbin/list_members
/usr/share/bash-completion/completions/list_members
/usr/share/man/man8/list_members.8.gz
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman-Users Digest, Vol 124, Issue 8

[EyeLand]

2014-06-09 13:00 GMT+03:00  :
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2014 16:40:35 -0400
> From: Rich Kulawiec 
> To: mailman-users@python.org
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Export all subsribers
> Message-ID: <20140608204035.ga29...@gsp.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Sun, Jun 08, 2014 at 08:11:54PM +0300, EyeLand wrote:
>> Hello, on mailing list I have many emails on "Membership Management...
>> - [Membership List]", how I can export all on txt file? Thank you.
>
> >From the shell:
>
> ~mailman/bin/list_members name-of-mailing-list
>
> will put the list on stdout, so you could redirect it to a file
> if you wish:
>
> ~mailman/bin/list_members name-of-mailing-list > roster
>
> If you have a number of mailing lists and want to dump them all, you
> could use something along the lines of:
>
> #!/bin/csh
>
> set filelist = `~mailman/bin/list_lists -b`
>
> foreach i ($filelist)
> ~mailman/bin/list_members $i > $i.roster
> end
>
> which will create a series of files whose names consist of the
> name of each mailing list suffixed with ".roster".
>
> ---rsk

root@vps1:~#  ~mailman/bin/list_members mailman
-bash: ~mailman/bin/list_members: No such file or directory

OR

root@vps1:~#  ~mailman/bin/list_members mailman@host
-bash: ~mailman/bin/list_members: No such file or directory

where I can read right name of my mailing list?
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Export all subsribers

[Bjoern Franke]

Am Sonntag, den 08.06.2014, 20:11 +0300 schrieb EyeLand:
> Hello, on mailing list I have many emails on "Membership Management...
> - [Membership List]", how I can export all on txt file? Thank you.

/usr/sbin/list_members -o  

regards
Bjoern
-- 
xmpp b...@schafweide.org 
bjo.nord-west.org | nord-west.org

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Re: [Mailman-Users] postfix MTA - getting smtpd...mailman/data/aliases.db: Permission denied (doh!)

[J Davis]

In one word - selinux. Disable it now. Get to work. It is about risk vs.
reward.

Don old UNIX cap and IMHO - it may someday it may not be so much of a
philosophy and usable by the masses - or it may end up like emacs and
remain one.


Jim Davis
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