Re: [meteorite-list] ill need more

[David Weir]

Wow Dave, I hadn't thought of that possibility. They had a celebratory 
barbeque (or maybe sacrifice to the God of thunderstones), and the dog 
was the munchies of honor. I can see that.

David
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Re: [meteorite-list] ill need more

[Dave Freeman mjwy]

Dear Sterling;


  There are innumerable historical accounts of
"fabulous" events for which at the time there was
no "rational" explanation that are perfectly and
consistently what would be expected from
a meteorite that are presently blythely dismissed
as being "without proof."

Sort of reminds me of that dog discussion, did the dog die from being 
bumped in the head by the meteorite or was he just turned to ashes 
because he was barbecued?
Long live Nakhala dog and other odd stories that can't be proven 
like this one.

Dave F.
latenight

Sterling K. Webb wrote:


Hi, Michael, Jeffrey, List

   Michael, as you well know, if the stone is
not preserved, conserved, abducted by a museum,
university, or government agency, examined by
a geologist, mineralogist, scholar, savant, published,
mentioned, noted, or abstracted, and then, in more
scientific times, cut, sectioned, analyzed, poked in
the noble gases and asked to cough --- it does not
exist.

   There is no "meteorite" named ZVEZVAN, no
entries in the Catalogue, no specimens, no slices,
no nothing. Just an article in the NYTimes and one
dead wedding guest. Not much, unless the wedding
guest mattered to you. Doesn't mean it didn't happen.
What? Slow news day in Zvezvan?

   There are innumerable historical accounts of
"fabulous" events for which at the time there was
no "rational" explanation that are perfectly and
consistently what would be expected from
a meteorite that are presently blythely dismissed
as being "without proof."

   There is a well-known case of a Franciscan monk
of Milan being killed by a meteorite striking him in the
leg (17th century). This is a much disputed account
despite a large number of witness and perfectly consistent
details. It was called a "celestial stoning," the notion of
meteorites being unknown at the time, and was widely
reported and well attested, but is widely regarded by the
"experts" of today as the report of the ignorant and
the credulous.

   Then, in 1985, a historian quite accidentally discovered
a lengthy account written by the physician who attempted
to save the monk's life (and failed). The "autopsy report"
is clear: the man's thigh was punctured side-to-side by a
blocky piece of heavy dark stone larger than a bullet; the
wound would have been survivable except that the "stone"
severed the femoral artery and the victim bled out.

   Those 17th century guys just didn't realize that without
a video tape of the whole thing, nobody was ever going to
believe them! No guest shot on Oprah for them... But,
frankly, to dismiss entirely these accounts for which there
is no inherent clause for dismissal as "the report of the
ignorant and the credulous" is... What's the word? Oh,
yes: ignorant and credulous. But I'm just re-iterating in a
minor way the discussion in Chap. 13 of Lewis book.
Go read that, an excellent book on meteorites.

   Jeffrey, if you have archival access to the NYT, you
might try for March 11, 1897 (1:4) account of a meteorite
whose fragments pierced walls, killed one horse, injured
another, and knocked out cold a man named David
Leisure, in New Martinsville, West Virginia, apparently
an explosive air-burst. (That's all I have, and that may
have been all that was in the Times.)

   As for the "glowing hot" references in such accounts,
that is the result of one of the great fallacies of human
perception and need not invalidate an account. Ascribing
heat to meteorites is akin to "seeing" lightening as red.

   Before 1800, in the many hundreds of descriptions
of lightening to be found in the literatures of every culture
on the planet, lightening is described as being red in color.
I accumulated 700 references to the color of lightening
prior to the late 18th century and found only one reference
to "blue" lightening; ALL others were red. Since the early
19th century, lightening is always described as "blue,
blue-white, bluish white." Why? Better eyesight nowadays?

   No. Before 1800, everyone "knew" lightening was "fire"
from heaven, and "fire" is red. Now, everyone "knows"
that lightening is electrical, a gigantic atmospheric spark,
and "electricity" is "blue" (or blue-white). Any (and every)
fool knows that. Human beings DO NOT SEE what's in
front of them; they DO SEE what they "know" to be true.
They "know" meteorites are fiery objects, so they're "hot."
Reality has nothing to do with it.

   A great many genuine in-the-book historical falls come
with witness descriptions of "hot rocks." Whether there
are ever any real "hot rocks" is impossible to determine
because they're going to be reported as hot whether they
were or not.


Sterling K. Webb
----

Re: [meteorite-list] ill need more

[E.P. Grondine]

Hi Sterling - 

To state the obvisous, fire was the primary way of
cooking food and heating in those days, and accounts
of fires must be read in that light.

good hunting,
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

--- "Sterling K. Webb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Hi, Michael, Jeffrey, List
> 
> Michael, as you well know, if the stone is
> not preserved, conserved, abducted by a museum,
> university, or government agency, examined by
> a geologist, mineralogist, scholar, savant,
> published,
> mentioned, noted, or abstracted, and then, in more
> scientific times, cut, sectioned, analyzed, poked in
> the noble gases and asked to cough --- it does not
> exist.
> 
> There is no "meteorite" named ZVEZVAN, no
> entries in the Catalogue, no specimens, no slices,
> no nothing. Just an article in the NYTimes and one
> dead wedding guest. Not much, unless the wedding
> guest mattered to you. Doesn't mean it didn't
> happen.
> What? Slow news day in Zvezvan?
> 
> There are innumerable historical accounts of
> "fabulous" events for which at the time there was
> no "rational" explanation that are perfectly and
> consistently what would be expected from
> a meteorite that are presently blythely dismissed
> as being "without proof."
> 
> There is a well-known case of a Franciscan monk
> of Milan being killed by a meteorite striking him in
> the
> leg (17th century). This is a much disputed account
> despite a large number of witness and perfectly
> consistent
> details. It was called a "celestial stoning," the
> notion of
> meteorites being unknown at the time, and was widely
> reported and well attested, but is widely regarded
> by the
> "experts" of today as the report of the ignorant and
> the credulous.
> 
> Then, in 1985, a historian quite accidentally
> discovered
> a lengthy account written by the physician who
> attempted
> to save the monk's life (and failed). The "autopsy
> report"
> is clear: the man's thigh was punctured side-to-side
> by a
> blocky piece of heavy dark stone larger than a
> bullet; the
> wound would have been survivable except that the
> "stone"
> severed the femoral artery and the victim bled out.
> 
> Those 17th century guys just didn't realize that
> without
> a video tape of the whole thing, nobody was ever
> going to
> believe them! No guest shot on Oprah for them...
> But,
> frankly, to dismiss entirely these accounts for
> which there
> is no inherent clause for dismissal as "the report
> of the
> ignorant and the credulous" is... What's the word?
> Oh,
> yes: ignorant and credulous. But I'm just
> re-iterating in a
> minor way the discussion in Chap. 13 of Lewis book.
> Go read that, an excellent book on meteorites.
> 
> Jeffrey, if you have archival access to the NYT,
> you
> might try for March 11, 1897 (1:4) account of a
> meteorite
> whose fragments pierced walls, killed one horse,
> injured
> another, and knocked out cold a man named David
> Leisure, in New Martinsville, West Virginia,
> apparently
> an explosive air-burst. (That's all I have, and that
> may
> have been all that was in the Times.)
> 
> As for the "glowing hot" references in such
> accounts,
> that is the result of one of the great fallacies of
> human
> perception and need not invalidate an account.
> Ascribing
> heat to meteorites is akin to "seeing" lightening as
> red.
> 
> Before 1800, in the many hundreds of
> descriptions
> of lightening to be found in the literatures of
> every culture
> on the planet, lightening is described as being red
> in color.
> I accumulated 700 references to the color of
> lightening
> prior to the late 18th century and found only one
> reference
> to "blue" lightening; ALL others were red. Since the
> early
> 19th century, lightening is always described as
> "blue,
> blue-white, bluish white." Why? Better eyesight
> nowadays?
> 
> No. Before 1800, everyone "knew" lightening was
> "fire"
> from heaven, and "fire" is red. Now, everyone
> "knows"
> that lightening is electrical, a gigantic
> atmospheric spark,
> and "electricity" is "blue" (or blue-white). Any
> (and every)
> fool knows that. Human beings DO NOT SEE what's in
> front of them; they DO SEE what they "know" to be
> true.
> They "know" meteorites are fiery objects, so they're
> "hot."
> Reality has nothing to do with 

Re: [meteorite-list] ill need more AGAIN

[E.P. Grondine]

Hi Sterling - 

Thanks much for the link.  The Rev. Dick's work was
probably the ultimate source for the face on mars
stuff we see today. Incorporated into American
spiritualist movements, Dick's nonsense lives on to
today.

My favorite hoax was a trans-Atlantic balloon crossing
fabricated by Edgar Allen Poe to avenge himself on an
editor who had stiffed him.

good hunting,
E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas 

--- "Sterling K. Webb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Mark is certainly correct about the hoaxing
> propensities
> of 19th century (and early 20th century) newspapers.
> The
> ultimate example is that is the "Great Moon Hoax" of
> 1832:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Moon_Hoax
> 
> You will note that Mark's list is of very
> dramatic accounts.
> OK, the death of a wedding guest has a certain
> drama, but
> the death of a horse in West Virginia is not the
> stuff of a real
> blockbuster.
> 
> To be sure, we need to be certain. Somebody has
> to go
> there, get the stone, and do all the scientific
> dirty work. BUT,
> that does not mean the obverse, that all unverified
> events are
> untrue, hoaxes, folk tales, urban legends, and the
> like. SOME
> are; others are not.
> 
> When we get back to older historical records,
> they are most
> often just that: records, official, never made
> public, internal
> documents, private correspondence, and so forth.
> Gervase of 
> Canterbury's description of a dramatic Lunar impact
> event 
> witnessed on the evening of June 18, 1178, was
> recorded in 
> the "day book" of the monastery and not discovered
> for many
> centuries; it was not sent immediately to cable TV.
> 
> [Currently that event is on the debunking
> calendar:
> http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news118.html
> but the debunker's arguments are themselves bunk,
> well,
> that's not the topic here.] 
> 
> But, in Mark's wonderful collection of newspaper
> accounts 
> of real meteorites that actually fell, one will find
> lots of bizarre 
> "details" that sound "fake." So, if REAL falls
> produce partially 
> unbelievable accounts, why should a reasonably sober
> account 
> be dismissed out of hand?
> 
> 
> Sterling K. Webb
>
-
> - Original Message - 
> From: "MARK BOSTICK" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 9:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ill need more
> 
> 
> Michael Blood asked:
> 
> "However, I was wondering what the NAME of this
> meteorite is
> "Zvezvan" is not listed in Meteorites A to Z."
> 
> Because newspaper reports are not always correct.
> 
> I wouldn't add any of these to your list either
> Michael.
> 
> http://www.meteoritearticles.com/meteorwrongsMT.html
> 
> Clear Skies,
> Mark
> 
> 
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>
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> 
> 
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Re: [meteorite-list] ill need more

[E.P. Grondine]

Hi Mark, Ken, all - 

The problem as I see it is that if the exposure of
these frauds is not given with them, then people will
continue to be swindled by them.  The original writers
made money with these frauds the first time around,
and there are still writers today who are interested
in making money.

good hunting,
EP




--- ken newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Mark has done an excellent job in researching and
> publishing these 
> fabricated accounts to the List.
> Here are a few of the more memorable ones:
> 
> February 22, 1934   -US-Meteor Crushes Spanish
> Home
> http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/02221934.htm
> 
> December 22, 1928   -US-Meteor Fall Kills Woman
> & Baby
> http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/12221928.htm
> 
> July 29, 1925   -US-Meteors fall in Neb and SD
> http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/7291925.htm
> 
> September 12, 1922   -US-Meteor Discharges Gas
> In Its Flight
> http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/9121922.htm
> 
> January 17, 1916   -US-Meteor Explodes Before
> Bank and Church
> http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/01171916.html
> 
> December 14, 1915  Large Meteorite Kills Three
> Dogs -Alaska-
> http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/12141915.htm
> 
> November 21, 1914   -US-Falling Meteor Digs Up
> Tunips
> http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/11211914.htm
> 
> August 31, 1913   -Spain-Aerolite Wrecks Village
> http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/8311913.htm
> 
> January 26, 1907   -US-Meteor Exploded Near
> Powder Car
> http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/01261907.htm
> 
> April 19, 1906   -US-Found Meteor Fragment
> http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/04191906.htm
> 
> September 10, 1904  -US-Meteor Explodes on Farm
> http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/9101904.htm
> 
> November 17, 1899  -US-Meteorite Wrecks Dwelling
> http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/11171899.htm
> 
> July 14, 1896   -Mexico-Meteorite Kills
> Children, Brings Rain
> http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/7141896.htm
> 
> May 8, 1895   -Newfoundland-Hit By A Meteor
> http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/581895.htm
> 
> December 03, 1892   -US-Part of a Comet?
> http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/11031892.htm
> 
> February 09, 1891  -Hungary-The Work of an
> Aerolite
> http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/2091891.htm
> 
> March 14, 1890   -US-Meteorite Fall Cooks Fish
> Dinner
> http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/03141890.htm
> 
> June 13, 1887   -US-An Immense Meteor
> http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/6131887.htm
> 
> July 21, 1886  -US-A Meteoric Stone Takes A Trip
> To Wisconsin
> http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/7211886.htm
> 
> January 19, 1879   -US-The Murderous Meteorite
> http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/mm.html
> 
> November 14, 1817  -France-Paris Fall
> http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/11141817.htm
> 
> Best,
> Ken Newton
> 
> 
> 
> MARK BOSTICK wrote:
> 
> >Michael Blood asked:
> >
> >"However, I was wondering what the NAME of this
> meteorite is
> >"Zvezvan" is not listed in Meteorites A to Z."
> >
> >Because newspaper reports are not always correct.
> >
> >I wouldn't add any of these to your list either
> Michael.
> >
>
>http://www.meteoritearticles.com/meteorwrongsMT.html
> >
> >Clear Skies,
> >Mark
> >
> >
> >__
> >Meteorite-list mailing list
> >Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
>
>http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> >
> >  
> >
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> 



 

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Re: [meteorite-list] ill need more AGAIN

[Pete Pete]

One horse had its head crushed and nearly

torn from the trunk by a fragment of the meteor, and another horse in
the next stall was discovered to be stone deaf.


stone deaf.


Intentional pun?

Cheers,
Pete



From: Jeffrey Shallit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED],[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ill need more AGAIN
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 07:17:09 -0500 (EST)

Here's the article you requested:

New York Times, March 11 1897, p. 1

EXPLOSION OF A METEOR

---

One Man Rendered Unconscious and the Head of a Horse Crushed

Parkersburg, West Va., March 10. -

A meteor burst over the town of New Martinsville yesterday.  The noise
of the explosion resembled the shock of a heavy artillery salute, and
was heard for twenty miles.  The cylindrical shaped ball of fire was
forging along in a southwesterly direction when first discovered.  The
hissing sound of the fire could be heard for miles, and the smoke gave
the meteor the appearance of a burning balloon.

When the meteor exploded the pieces flew in all directions, like a
volcanic upheaval, and solid walls were pierced by the fragments.
David Leisure was knocked down by the force of the air caused by the
rapidity with which the body passed, before it broke.  The blow
rendered him unconscious.  One horse had its head crushed and nearly
torn from the trunk by a fragment of the meteor, and another horse in
the next stall was discovered to be stone deaf.

The coming of the meteor was heralded by a rumbling noise, followed in
an instant by the hissing sound, and immediately the ball of fire,
spitting and smoking, burst into full view, and before the people had
time to collect their senses, the explosion occurred.


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Re: [meteorite-list] ill need more AGAIN

[Jeffrey Shallit]

Here's the article you requested:

New York Times, March 11 1897, p. 1

EXPLOSION OF A METEOR

---

One Man Rendered Unconscious and the Head of a Horse Crushed

Parkersburg, West Va., March 10. -

A meteor burst over the town of New Martinsville yesterday.  The noise
of the explosion resembled the shock of a heavy artillery salute, and
was heard for twenty miles.  The cylindrical shaped ball of fire was
forging along in a southwesterly direction when first discovered.  The
hissing sound of the fire could be heard for miles, and the smoke gave
the meteor the appearance of a burning balloon.

When the meteor exploded the pieces flew in all directions, like a
volcanic upheaval, and solid walls were pierced by the fragments.
David Leisure was knocked down by the force of the air caused by the
rapidity with which the body passed, before it broke.  The blow
rendered him unconscious.  One horse had its head crushed and nearly
torn from the trunk by a fragment of the meteor, and another horse in
the next stall was discovered to be stone deaf.

The coming of the meteor was heralded by a rumbling noise, followed in
an instant by the hissing sound, and immediately the ball of fire,
spitting and smoking, burst into full view, and before the people had
time to collect their senses, the explosion occurred.


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Re: [meteorite-list] ill need more

[ken newton]

Mark has done an excellent job in researching and publishing these 
fabricated accounts to the List.
Here are a few of the more memorable ones:

February 22, 1934   -US-Meteor Crushes Spanish Home
http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/02221934.htm

December 22, 1928   -US-Meteor Fall Kills Woman & Baby
http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/12221928.htm

July 29, 1925   -US-Meteors fall in Neb and SD
http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/7291925.htm

September 12, 1922   -US-Meteor Discharges Gas In Its Flight
http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/9121922.htm

January 17, 1916   -US-Meteor Explodes Before Bank and Church
http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/01171916.html

December 14, 1915  Large Meteorite Kills Three Dogs -Alaska-
http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/12141915.htm

November 21, 1914   -US-Falling Meteor Digs Up Tunips
http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/11211914.htm

August 31, 1913   -Spain-Aerolite Wrecks Village
http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/8311913.htm

January 26, 1907   -US-Meteor Exploded Near Powder Car
http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/01261907.htm

April 19, 1906   -US-Found Meteor Fragment
http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/04191906.htm

September 10, 1904  -US-Meteor Explodes on Farm
http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/9101904.htm

November 17, 1899  -US-Meteorite Wrecks Dwelling
http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/11171899.htm

July 14, 1896   -Mexico-Meteorite Kills Children, Brings Rain
http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/7141896.htm

May 8, 1895   -Newfoundland-Hit By A Meteor
http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/581895.htm

December 03, 1892   -US-Part of a Comet?
http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/11031892.htm

February 09, 1891  -Hungary-The Work of an Aerolite
http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/2091891.htm

March 14, 1890   -US-Meteorite Fall Cooks Fish Dinner
http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/03141890.htm

June 13, 1887   -US-An Immense Meteor
http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/6131887.htm

July 21, 1886  -US-A Meteoric Stone Takes A Trip To Wisconsin
http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/7211886.htm

January 19, 1879   -US-The Murderous Meteorite
http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/mm.html

November 14, 1817  -France-Paris Fall
http://home.earthlink.net/~mwnews/11141817.htm

Best,
Ken Newton



MARK BOSTICK wrote:

>Michael Blood asked:
>
>"However, I was wondering what the NAME of this meteorite is
>"Zvezvan" is not listed in Meteorites A to Z."
>
>Because newspaper reports are not always correct.
>
>I wouldn't add any of these to your list either Michael.
>
>http://www.meteoritearticles.com/meteorwrongsMT.html
>
>Clear Skies,
>Mark
>
>
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>
>  
>
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Re: [meteorite-list] ill need more

[Michael L Blood]

veryone "knows"
> that lightening is electrical, a gigantic atmospheric spark,
> and "electricity" is "blue" (or blue-white). Any (and every)
> fool knows that. Human beings DO NOT SEE what's in
> front of them; they DO SEE what they "know" to be true.
> They "know" meteorites are fiery objects, so they're "hot."
> Reality has nothing to do with it.
> 
>   A great many genuine in-the-book historical falls come
> with witness descriptions of "hot rocks." Whether there
> are ever any real "hot rocks" is impossible to determine
> because they're going to be reported as hot whether they
> were or not.
> 
> 
> Sterling K. Webb
> -
> - Original Message -
> From: "Michael L Blood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Jeffrey Shallit" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Meteorite List"
> ; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 7:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ill need more
> 
> 
> Hi Jeffrey,
>   Thanks!
>   However, I was wondering what the NAME of this meteorite is
> "Zvezvan" is not listed in Meteorites A to Z.
>   Michael
> 
> 
> on 2/24/07 5:26 PM, Jeffrey Shallit at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
> 
>> Ask and ye shall receive:
>> 
>> "Little thing like a meteor fails to discourage bride"
>> New York Times
>> December 8 1929
>> p. E1
>> 
>> Special correspondence of the New York Times
>> 
>> Belgrade, Nov. 20. - The heavens "blessed" a bride in unwonted
>> and unwelcome form in the village of Zvezvan today.  As the wedding
>> party was nearing the church a meteor fell into one of the carriages
>> immediately in front of that in which the bride was seated.
>> 
>> One of the wedding guests, a man, was killed, the woman sitting
>> opposite him was badly injured and the bride fainted.  The crowd
>> scattered in panic, but after a brief delay the marriage was
>> duly solemnized.
>> 
>> The meteor, which was glowing hot, measured forty centimeters in
>> diameter.
>> 
> 
> --
> You can complain because roses have thorns, or you can rejoice
> because thorns have roses.
>   - Ziggy - in a comic strip by Tom Wilson
> --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

--
You can complain because roses have thorns, or you can rejoice
because thorns have roses.
- Ziggy - in a comic strip by Tom Wilson
--

  








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Re: [meteorite-list] ill need more AGAIN

[Sterling K. Webb]

Hi,

Mark is certainly correct about the hoaxing propensities
of 19th century (and early 20th century) newspapers. The
ultimate example is that is the "Great Moon Hoax" of 1832:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Moon_Hoax

You will note that Mark's list is of very dramatic accounts.
OK, the death of a wedding guest has a certain drama, but
the death of a horse in West Virginia is not the stuff of a real
blockbuster.

To be sure, we need to be certain. Somebody has to go
there, get the stone, and do all the scientific dirty work. BUT,
that does not mean the obverse, that all unverified events are
untrue, hoaxes, folk tales, urban legends, and the like. SOME
are; others are not.

When we get back to older historical records, they are most
often just that: records, official, never made public, internal
documents, private correspondence, and so forth. Gervase of 
Canterbury's description of a dramatic Lunar impact event 
witnessed on the evening of June 18, 1178, was recorded in 
the "day book" of the monastery and not discovered for many
centuries; it was not sent immediately to cable TV.

[Currently that event is on the debunking calendar:
http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news118.html
but the debunker's arguments are themselves bunk, well,
that's not the topic here.] 

But, in Mark's wonderful collection of newspaper accounts 
of real meteorites that actually fell, one will find lots of bizarre 
"details" that sound "fake." So, if REAL falls produce partially 
unbelievable accounts, why should a reasonably sober account 
be dismissed out of hand?


Sterling K. Webb
-
- Original Message - 
From: "MARK BOSTICK" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 9:29 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ill need more


Michael Blood asked:

"However, I was wondering what the NAME of this meteorite is
"Zvezvan" is not listed in Meteorites A to Z."

Because newspaper reports are not always correct.

I wouldn't add any of these to your list either Michael.

http://www.meteoritearticles.com/meteorwrongsMT.html

Clear Skies,
Mark


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Re: [meteorite-list] ill need more

[Sterling K. Webb]

Hi, Michael, Jeffrey, List

Michael, as you well know, if the stone is
not preserved, conserved, abducted by a museum,
university, or government agency, examined by
a geologist, mineralogist, scholar, savant, published,
mentioned, noted, or abstracted, and then, in more
scientific times, cut, sectioned, analyzed, poked in
the noble gases and asked to cough --- it does not
exist.

There is no "meteorite" named ZVEZVAN, no
entries in the Catalogue, no specimens, no slices,
no nothing. Just an article in the NYTimes and one
dead wedding guest. Not much, unless the wedding
guest mattered to you. Doesn't mean it didn't happen.
What? Slow news day in Zvezvan?

There are innumerable historical accounts of
"fabulous" events for which at the time there was
no "rational" explanation that are perfectly and
consistently what would be expected from
a meteorite that are presently blythely dismissed
as being "without proof."

There is a well-known case of a Franciscan monk
of Milan being killed by a meteorite striking him in the
leg (17th century). This is a much disputed account
despite a large number of witness and perfectly consistent
details. It was called a "celestial stoning," the notion of
meteorites being unknown at the time, and was widely
reported and well attested, but is widely regarded by the
"experts" of today as the report of the ignorant and
the credulous.

Then, in 1985, a historian quite accidentally discovered
a lengthy account written by the physician who attempted
to save the monk's life (and failed). The "autopsy report"
is clear: the man's thigh was punctured side-to-side by a
blocky piece of heavy dark stone larger than a bullet; the
wound would have been survivable except that the "stone"
severed the femoral artery and the victim bled out.

Those 17th century guys just didn't realize that without
a video tape of the whole thing, nobody was ever going to
believe them! No guest shot on Oprah for them... But,
frankly, to dismiss entirely these accounts for which there
is no inherent clause for dismissal as "the report of the
ignorant and the credulous" is... What's the word? Oh,
yes: ignorant and credulous. But I'm just re-iterating in a
minor way the discussion in Chap. 13 of Lewis book.
Go read that, an excellent book on meteorites.

Jeffrey, if you have archival access to the NYT, you
might try for March 11, 1897 (1:4) account of a meteorite
whose fragments pierced walls, killed one horse, injured
another, and knocked out cold a man named David
Leisure, in New Martinsville, West Virginia, apparently
an explosive air-burst. (That's all I have, and that may
have been all that was in the Times.)

As for the "glowing hot" references in such accounts,
that is the result of one of the great fallacies of human
perception and need not invalidate an account. Ascribing
heat to meteorites is akin to "seeing" lightening as red.

Before 1800, in the many hundreds of descriptions
of lightening to be found in the literatures of every culture
on the planet, lightening is described as being red in color.
I accumulated 700 references to the color of lightening
prior to the late 18th century and found only one reference
to "blue" lightening; ALL others were red. Since the early
19th century, lightening is always described as "blue,
blue-white, bluish white." Why? Better eyesight nowadays?

No. Before 1800, everyone "knew" lightening was "fire"
from heaven, and "fire" is red. Now, everyone "knows"
that lightening is electrical, a gigantic atmospheric spark,
and "electricity" is "blue" (or blue-white). Any (and every)
fool knows that. Human beings DO NOT SEE what's in
front of them; they DO SEE what they "know" to be true.
They "know" meteorites are fiery objects, so they're "hot."
Reality has nothing to do with it.

A great many genuine in-the-book historical falls come
with witness descriptions of "hot rocks." Whether there
are ever any real "hot rocks" is impossible to determine
because they're going to be reported as hot whether they
were or not.


Sterling K. Webb
-----------------
- Original Message - 
From: "Michael L Blood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jeffrey Shallit" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Meteorite List" 
; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] ill need more


Hi Jeffrey,
Thanks!
However, I was wondering what the NAME of this meteorite is
"Zvezvan" is not listed in Meteorites A to Z.
Michael


on 2/24/07 5:26 PM, Jeffrey Shallit at [EMAIL PROTECTE

Re: [meteorite-list] ill need more

[MARK BOSTICK]

Michael Blood asked:

"However, I was wondering what the NAME of this meteorite is
"Zvezvan" is not listed in Meteorites A to Z."

Because newspaper reports are not always correct.

I wouldn't add any of these to your list either Michael.

http://www.meteoritearticles.com/meteorwrongsMT.html

Clear Skies,
Mark


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Re: [meteorite-list] ill need more

[Michael L Blood]

Hi Jeffrey,
Thanks!
However, I was wondering what the NAME of this meteorite is
"Zvezvan" is not listed in Meteorites A to Z.
Michael


on 2/24/07 5:26 PM, Jeffrey Shallit at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

> Ask and ye shall receive:
> 
> "Little thing like a meteor fails to discourage bride"
> New York Times
> December 8 1929
> p. E1
> 
> Special correspondence of the New York Times
> 
> Belgrade, Nov. 20. - The heavens "blessed" a bride in unwonted
> and unwelcome form in the village of Zvezvan today.  As the wedding
> party was nearing the church a meteor fell into one of the carriages
> immediately in front of that in which the bride was seated.
> 
> One of the wedding guests, a man, was killed, the woman sitting
> opposite him was badly injured and the bride fainted.  The crowd
> scattered in panic, but after a brief delay the marriage was
> duly solemnized.
> 
> The meteor, which was glowing hot, measured forty centimeters in
> diameter.
> 

--
You can complain because roses have thorns, or you can rejoice
because thorns have roses.
- Ziggy - in a comic strip by Tom Wilson
--

  








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