Re: [NetBehaviour] Leonardo vs. Machiavelli: The Mediocrity of Evil and a New Saint Genevieve (Brey Tucker)
Hi Brey, I'm sorry you found it a misuse. You'll find references to Toynbee and social movements; I don't have the references here at this point, but some were from Latin America. It was used widely to indicate social movements and informal economies as well as cultural transformations. For you there are agreeable definitions, they aren't for me. When I taught postmodernism (and I'm sure you'd find the course a horror) we focused on art, yes - I taught in art depts. - but the wider social movements were critical. The "word use" started in a lot of different disciplines, I don't know what an "agreeable definition" is - perhaps agreeable for you, perhaps we should take a vote? In any case, I found Max Herman's piece dismissive and conservative in a way that for me, and for the writers I was teaching, would have been problematic. I did edit an issue of Art Papers way back then (Art/crit mag from Atlanta still going strong) on Postmodernism, which certainly went way beyond art per se; it might be available somewhere. If you find I'm misusing the word, I'll defer to you at this point. I do remember using Leotard among other theorists btw at the time - I might be able to dig out the essay or biblio. Alan On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 3:44 PM Brey Tucker via NetBehaviour < netbehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org> wrote: > Greetings, > > I just wanted to follow up on Alan's criticism of the word use of > "postmodernism", which I found to be even more of a misuse of the word than > the more obvious use in Max Herman's piece. Semantic shifts are unavoidable > but just in case it's not widely experienced information... Postmodernism's > word use definitively started in art, as a way to define the departure from > French Impressionism by John Watkins Chapman back in 1870. Its most > agreeable definitions are in painting and architecture. > > Intellectually, in reference to society, I would argue that Max Herman's > use is still more applicable than South American favelas as the context of > the piece was centered on "modernity", especially with its identity in > European culture and democracy, etc. being much closer to the > original publication of Arnold J. Tynbee's 1939 essay that stated, "Our own > Post-Modern Age has been inaugurated by the general war of 1914-1918". > > I would argue any use of the word "postmodern" or such variation of > "modernity" would require time to define its context as the word use is > extremely varied now across topics such as hyperreality, simulacrum and > objective reality. I quite enjoyed the way Max took the time to define it > and use it, albeit a departure from how I generally conjure postmodernism > in my mind. > > Alan, you're rich with great ideas and interesting conversation but I > would have expected more of a criticism defending Machiavelli's positive > contributions to society with the need for acceptance of cruel realities > than this niche use of a common word. > > Cheers, > Brey > > On Sun, 11 Feb 2024 at 03:01, > wrote: > >> Send NetBehaviour mailing list submissions to >> netbehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> https://lists.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> netbehaviour-requ...@lists.netbehaviour.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> netbehaviour-ow...@lists.netbehaviour.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of NetBehaviour digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >>1. Leonardo vs. Machiavelli: The Mediocrity of Evil and a New >> Saint Genevieve (Max Herman) >>2. Re: Leonardo vs. Machiavelli: The Mediocrity of Evil and a >> New Saint Genevieve (Alan Sondheim) >> >> >> -- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2024 16:01:37 + >> From: Max Herman >> To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity >> >> Subject: [NetBehaviour] Leonardo vs. Machiavelli: The Mediocrity of >> Evil and a New Saint Genevieve >> Message-ID: >> < >> mw4pr14mb5484602807763d3336bf0e07a5...@mw4pr14mb5484.namprd14.prod.outlook.com >> > >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >> >> >> +++ >> >> The modern world has problems. No longer ancient and starting sort of >> from scratch, no longer medieval with short lifespans and a simple >> church-state duopoly, and certainly no longer indigenous in direct mutual >> dialogue with nature like a woven fabric, our problems are unique enough to >> have their own name: "modernity." >> >> An idea, rather facetious, cropped up over fifty ? yes, fifty ? years ago >> to call European culture "post-modern" instead of modern. This idea >> suggested that although modernity may have had many serious problems they >> no longer mattered because their "time" had passed. The time of >>
Re: [NetBehaviour] Leonardo vs. Machiavelli: The Mediocrity of Evil and a New Saint Genevieve (Brey Tucker)
Greetings, I just wanted to follow up on Alan's criticism of the word use of "postmodernism", which I found to be even more of a misuse of the word than the more obvious use in Max Herman's piece. Semantic shifts are unavoidable but just in case it's not widely experienced information... Postmodernism's word use definitively started in art, as a way to define the departure from French Impressionism by John Watkins Chapman back in 1870. Its most agreeable definitions are in painting and architecture. Intellectually, in reference to society, I would argue that Max Herman's use is still more applicable than South American favelas as the context of the piece was centered on "modernity", especially with its identity in European culture and democracy, etc. being much closer to the original publication of Arnold J. Tynbee's 1939 essay that stated, "Our own Post-Modern Age has been inaugurated by the general war of 1914-1918". I would argue any use of the word "postmodern" or such variation of "modernity" would require time to define its context as the word use is extremely varied now across topics such as hyperreality, simulacrum and objective reality. I quite enjoyed the way Max took the time to define it and use it, albeit a departure from how I generally conjure postmodernism in my mind. Alan, you're rich with great ideas and interesting conversation but I would have expected more of a criticism defending Machiavelli's positive contributions to society with the need for acceptance of cruel realities than this niche use of a common word. Cheers, Brey On Sun, 11 Feb 2024 at 03:01, wrote: > Send NetBehaviour mailing list submissions to > netbehaviour@lists.netbehaviour.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > netbehaviour-requ...@lists.netbehaviour.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > netbehaviour-ow...@lists.netbehaviour.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of NetBehaviour digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > >1. Leonardo vs. Machiavelli: The Mediocrity of Evil and a New > Saint Genevieve (Max Herman) >2. Re: Leonardo vs. Machiavelli: The Mediocrity of Evil and a > New Saint Genevieve (Alan Sondheim) > > > -- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2024 16:01:37 + > From: Max Herman > To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity > > Subject: [NetBehaviour] Leonardo vs. Machiavelli: The Mediocrity of > Evil and a New Saint Genevieve > Message-ID: > < > mw4pr14mb5484602807763d3336bf0e07a5...@mw4pr14mb5484.namprd14.prod.outlook.com > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > > +++ > > The modern world has problems. No longer ancient and starting sort of > from scratch, no longer medieval with short lifespans and a simple > church-state duopoly, and certainly no longer indigenous in direct mutual > dialogue with nature like a woven fabric, our problems are unique enough to > have their own name: "modernity." > > An idea, rather facetious, cropped up over fifty ? yes, fifty ? years ago > to call European culture "post-modern" instead of modern. This idea > suggested that although modernity may have had many serious problems they > no longer mattered because their "time" had passed. The time of > constitutions, including democratic ones, a public sphere of communication > (with greater or lesser freedom of speech), the idea of rights codified by > laws which were often upheld even when some official or strongperson didn't > like it, and the reality of biological nature and scientific method, well > those things were all pass?. Not only did they no longer require any > effort or attention, they had never warranted it, being nothing more than > rewritings of the tooth fairy tale. There is no quarter under your pillow, > they said, only lies. > > We shouldn't be surprised now that in 2024 the USA is fairly likely to > vote an autocrat into the presidency and democracy is being routed like > yesterday's news the world over. Autocrats from Tallahassee to Budapest > crow about being post-truth, their PR consultants throwing terms like > post-Enlightenment around like confetti, and the general mass of ordinary > people ? the only force that has ever allowed democracy to function ? has > nothing to go by except tired populism and hyper-specific outrage. Susan > Neiman explains how Foucault carried this "who cares" attitude forward from > Schmitt, who did so for Nietzsche, who is from ? well, who? Neiman's book > explains why the millions of factions within the left and center can only > blame each other for being not left enough, too left, or left in the wrong > way, and cannot reliably organize political coalitions
