Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
Florian G. Pflug wrote: Alvaro Herrera wrote: Florian G. Pflug wrote: However, I just realized that doing this is much harder than I initially thought, because catalog access always happens with SnapshotNow, and e.g. drop table deletes datafiles at commit time, and not during vacuum. Not to mention the likenesses of CLUSTER and TRUNCATE, which would need to be taught how to keep the old datafiles for an additional week/hour. What I don't understand is why people isn't working in improving contrib/spi/timetravel. Because it serves different usecase I think - flashback is an administrative tool, not something you design your application around. Flashback is more similar to PITR recovery than to contrib/spi/timetravel. Drat. I remember when truncate wasn't even transaction safe, but I think it was since cut so that the non-rollbackable portion happened after commit. Ultimately, anything that changed data would need to basically deferred into the vacuum or other cycle. Basically, super MVCC, a truncate would basically do the tuple type action on the underlying files. Catalog stuff too, HOT all would need those semantics. Not doable. A lot of places that grab an AccessExclusiveLock are probably subject to this issue. Unless there was a bog standard way of doing this, and I don't see a good option, no go. So fun to think about and probably all sorts of neat things you could do with super MVCC, TRUNCATE a table with open transactions concurrent, but way too work for the gain of this tiny use feature... contrib/timetravel I think has some of these same issues (ie, drop table, can you still time travel?) along with a fair bit of trigger based overhead... - August ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
Do 97% of transactions commit because Oracle has slow rollbacks and developers are working around that performance issue, or because they really commit? I have watched several developers that would prefer to issue numerous selects to verify things like foreign keys in the application in order to avoid a rollback. Most of the code we have will not afford a rollback because it can be part of a much bigger transaction which would have much higher performance penalty if retried than a simple rollback. And you know that in postgres you can't roll back just the last insert, you will crash the whole transaction with it... and it's simply a performance bottleneck to retry in a high contention scenario (which is usually so in our case). So I would say we don't avoid rollbacks because of the cost of the rollback, but because of the cost of the retry... Cheers, Csaba. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
Theo Schlossnagle wrote: On Feb 20, 2007, at 1:40 PM, Tom Lane wrote: RPK [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I did not mean asking for undo from a life-time log. Since FlashBack Technology is already there, I just mean that world's most advanced database (PostgreSQL, as they say), must have an optimized way for undoing of at least a week changes. You're living in a dream world. Do you know any Oracle DBs who keep enough rollback segments to go back a week? Ours go for a good 6 hours sometimes :-D Eeven if it's just one hour, it's certainly better than nothing. I fully agree that I'd not be acceptable to introduce performance problems for _everyone_ by introducing flashback. But if you only experience a drop in performance if you actually enable flashback (by, let's say setting vacuum_min_deadtime=1h), then I don't see why anyone would object to having support for some kind of flashback. However, I just realized that doing this is much harder than I initially thought, because catalog access always happens with SnapshotNow, and e.g. drop table deletes datafiles at commit time, and not during vacuum. Supporting begin; drop table mytable; commit; begin; set transaction flashback 1 hour; select * from mytable; commit would therefore be really hard... greetings, Florian Pflug ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
Florian G. Pflug wrote: However, I just realized that doing this is much harder than I initially thought, because catalog access always happens with SnapshotNow, and e.g. drop table deletes datafiles at commit time, and not during vacuum. Not to mention the likenesses of CLUSTER and TRUNCATE, which would need to be taught how to keep the old datafiles for an additional week/hour. What I don't understand is why people isn't working in improving contrib/spi/timetravel. -- Alvaro Herrerahttp://www.CommandPrompt.com/ The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
Alvaro Herrera wrote: Florian G. Pflug wrote: However, I just realized that doing this is much harder than I initially thought, because catalog access always happens with SnapshotNow, and e.g. drop table deletes datafiles at commit time, and not during vacuum. Not to mention the likenesses of CLUSTER and TRUNCATE, which would need to be taught how to keep the old datafiles for an additional week/hour. What I don't understand is why people isn't working in improving contrib/spi/timetravel. Because it serves different usecase I think - flashback is an administrative tool, not something you design your application around. Flashback is more similar to PITR recovery than to contrib/spi/timetravel. greetings, Florian Pflug ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
Jonah H. Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 2/17/07, Joshua D. Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My understanding is that the main difference is that rollbacks are inexpensive for us, but expensive for Oracle. Yes, Oracle is optimized for COMMIT, we're optimized for ROLLBACK :) I used to say that too but I've since realized it's not really true. It's more like Oracle is optimized for data that's committed long in the past and we're optimized for data that's been recently updated. In Oracle the data that's been committed long in the past requires no transactional overhead but the data that's been recently updated requires lots of work to fetch the right version. In Postgres it's the other way around. data that's been committed deleted long ago requires extra work to clean up but data that's been recently changed requires little additional work to see the correct version. In a sense then it's the opposite of what we usually say. Oracle is optimized for mostly static data. Postgres is optimized for changing data. -- Gregory Stark EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
I agree that TimeStamp creates an overhead, but I just want to know if an accidental update happened to a table and this incident got traced three days after, what facility PGSQL provide to bring the table to its original condition. You can't wait regretting on why you did not run ROLLBACK before COMMIT. (Correct me. I am only a user). When talking about Oracle's technology and that it creates overhead, it is true, Oracle's database is not for ordinary machines. You can't expect performance on a normal 256 MB machine with Oracle. But still the more the options of recovery the best for mission critical environments. The feature of enabling/disabling TimeStamp logging is acceptable. A user must be able to decide whether FlashBack type option is needed or not. In Oracle 10g we can switch off FlashBack feature if we are low on resources. If PGSQL is to be used in a mission-critical situation then no company will rely on low-end machines. For these type of situations best environment is chosen and I think PGSQL must have this type of recovery options. PGSQL installer can ask the user during setup to enable/disable TimeStamp Logging. Restoring the database from a backup file that was created three days ago is not feasible. The changes in other tables and the new things created need to be done again at the price of just undoing the last update on a particular table. Warren Turkal-5 wrote: On Saturday 17 February 2007 07:49, RPK wrote: PostgreSQL, already a mature database, needs to have more options for recovery as compared to proprietary databases. I just worked with Oracle's FlashBack query feature in Oracle 9i and FlashBack Table feature in 10g. Future versions of PostgreSQL must have similar features which enable users to bring Table(s) and/or Database(s) to a desired Time Stamp. Check out my proposal[1] for Temporal extensions. Ultimately, creating valid time and transaction time tables would be possible through my proposal. Please check it out. [1]http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2007-02/msg00540.php wt -- Warren Turkal (w00t) ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/New-feature-request%3A-FlashBack-Query-tf3245023.html#a9059865 Sent from the PostgreSQL - hackers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
RPK wrote: I agree that TimeStamp creates an overhead, but I just want to know if an accidental update happened to a table and this incident got traced three days after, what facility PGSQL provide to bring the table to its original condition. You can't wait regretting on why you did not run ROLLBACK before COMMIT. (Correct me. I am only a user). Why the heck can't you create a reversing transaction? That's what ordinary mortals do. Demanding unlimited undo at some time that is arbitrarilly distant in the future strikes me as wholly unreasonable. What do you mean by accidental update? What you really appear to mean is that a program or a human operator has made an error, and incorrectly told the database to commit a transaction. The answer surely is to correct the behaviour of the program or human, rather than wanting the database to provide an undo facility. Alternatively, this should be handled at the application layer, using something like table_log. Some things just don't work well with this sort of facility. Just ask your bookie if you can undo a bet that you accidentally placed with him and which, three days later, you discover (after the race) was a mistake. cheers andrew ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
On 2/20/07, Gregory Stark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I used to say that too but I've since realized it's not really true. Heh, take a joke man... I was following up on Drake's email :) But, since you want to discuss your view of the systems openly... I'll gladly reply :) It's more like Oracle is optimized for data that's committed long in the past and we're optimized for data that's been recently updated. Wrong. When Oracle says it's committed, it's committed. No difference between when, where, and how. In Oracle, the committed version is *always* the first presented to the user... it takes time to go back and look at older versions; but why shouldn't that be a bit slower, it isn't common practice anyway. Same with rollbacks... why should they optimize for them when 97% of transactions commit? In Oracle the data that's been committed long in the past requires no transactional overhead but the data that's been recently updated requires lots of work to fetch the right version. Wrong. The same transactional overhead applies to *all* data in Oracle no matter of when it was committed. Similarly, the only overhead required occurs when someone is querying in serializable isolation or on read-committed data before or during a commit. On short OLTP-type transactions, Oracle has the most optimized solution. In Postgres it's the other way around. data that's been committed deleted long ago requires extra work to clean up but data that's been recently changed requires little additional work to see the correct version. PostgreSQL has little additional work? Like, checking the validity of every tuple? Oracle checks visibility at the block level, so there's *much* less overhead. Take most of the benchmarks which can hold ~200 tuples per block. Tables in those benchmarks are 100+ million rows. On a sequential scan, Oracle would perform 500K checks, PostgreSQL would perform *all* 100M checks (not counting dead versions due to row updates and the like). On an index scan, Oracle not only has a smaller index and less to check, but also knows the tuple will be committed and will, in most cases, not have to perform additional physical I/O to find the latest version of a row. Of course, Oracle's design is much more complicated in its ability to build read-committed versions of the blocks at runtime; something the simplicity of PostgreSQL's MVCC design eliminates. In a sense then it's the opposite of what we usually say. Oracle is optimized for mostly static data. Postgres is optimized for changing data. Care to share an example to prove it? Like always, there are pros and cons with both designs, but denying facts gets us nowhere. We're off-topic now... so we should either move this off line or to another thread. I personally don't see much of a reason to continue discussing MVCC designs anymore as Oracle's is patented and PostgreSQL's is highly unlikely to change drastically. As always, I'd suggest discussing improvements, not the status quo. Likewise, discussing Oracle's design, drawbacks, and limitations without having used it extensively is quite obvious to anyone familiar with Oracle. Don't get me wrong, it's fine to prefer one design to another, but pushing discussion items comparing Oracle to PostgreSQL because of things you've heard or read somewhere isn't the same as understanding them because you've used them. -- Jonah H. Harris, Software Architect | phone: 732.331.1324 EnterpriseDB Corporation| fax: 732.331.1301 33 Wood Ave S, 3rd Floor| [EMAIL PROTECTED] Iselin, New Jersey 08830| http://www.enterprisedb.com/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
Wrong. When Oracle says it's committed, it's committed. No difference between when, where, and how. In Oracle, the committed version is *always* the first presented to the user... it takes time to go back and look at older versions; but why shouldn't that be a bit slower, it isn't common practice anyway. Same with rollbacks... why should they optimize for them when 97% of transactions commit? Do 97% of transactions commit because Oracle has slow rollbacks and developers are working around that performance issue, or because they really commit? I have watched several developers that would prefer to issue numerous selects to verify things like foreign keys in the application in order to avoid a rollback. Anyway, I don't have experience with big Oracle applications but I'm not so sure that 97% of transactions would commit if rollbacks were cheaper. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
Ühel kenal päeval, T, 2007-02-20 kell 10:20, kirjutas Jonah H. Harris: On 2/20/07, Gregory Stark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I used to say that too but I've since realized it's not really true. Heh, take a joke man... I was following up on Drake's email :) But, since you want to discuss your view of the systems openly... I'll gladly reply :) It's more like Oracle is optimized for data that's committed long in the past and we're optimized for data that's been recently updated. Wrong. When Oracle says it's committed, it's committed. No difference between when, where, and how. In Oracle, the committed version is *always* the first presented to the user... it takes time to go back and look at older versions; Older versions are also committed :) He probably meant longer transactions and several versions visible to different backends. but why shouldn't that be a bit slower, it isn't common practice anyway. Not for pure OLAP, at least when you have fairly fast transactions. But it can slow things down when you have some hotspot tables. Same with rollbacks... why should they optimize for them when 97% of transactions commit? Or other way around, - you should write code, where most transactions commit ;) In Oracle the data that's been committed long in the past requires no transactional overhead but the data that's been recently updated requires lots of work to fetch the right version. Wrong. The same transactional overhead applies to *all* data in Oracle no matter of when it was committed. Similarly, the only overhead required occurs when someone is querying in serializable isolation or on read-committed data before or during a commit. On short OLTP-type transactions, Oracle has the most optimized solution. In Postgres it's the other way around. data that's been committed deleted long ago requires extra work to clean up but data that's been recently changed requires little additional work to see the correct version. PostgreSQL has little additional work? Like, checking the validity of every tuple? Oracle checks visibility at the block level, so there's *much* less overhead. Hmm. How can it check visibility at block level and at the same time do in-place updates on single tuples ? Take most of the benchmarks which can hold ~200 tuples per block. Tables in those benchmarks are 100+ million rows. On a sequential scan, Oracle would perform 500K checks, PostgreSQL would perform *all* 100M checks (not counting dead versions due to row updates and the like). My proposal of keeping visibility info in a separate heap would help to get similar results, that is mostly 1 check per page. That would also cover much of the index lookup cases below. On an index scan, Oracle not only has a smaller index and less to check, but also knows the tuple will be committed and will, in most cases, not have to perform additional physical I/O to find the latest version of a row. It is also the reason why you can forget about doing simultaneous data loading and queries on the same table. If you know avoid doing that, then it will, in most cases, not have to perform additional physical I/O to find the latest version of a row ;) Of course, Oracle's design is much more complicated in its ability to build read-committed versions of the blocks at runtime; something the simplicity of PostgreSQL's MVCC design eliminates. In a sense then it's the opposite of what we usually say. Oracle is optimized for mostly static data. Postgres is optimized for changing data. Care to share an example to prove it? Like always, there are pros and cons with both designs, but denying facts gets us nowhere. We're off-topic now... so we should either move this off line or to another thread. I personally don't see much of a reason to continue discussing MVCC designs anymore as Oracle's is patented and PostgreSQL's is highly unlikely to change drastically. I don't think we will ever move to rollback segments, but for some use-cases moving visibility to a separate heap could make sense. And if we want to bring back time travel (see another thread about Flashback Queries), then we may end up implementing the original postgresql's design spec and make VACUUM spihon dead tuples over to archive relations, which already starts looking a little like rollback segments, only for other purposes :) As always, I'd suggest discussing improvements, not the status quo. Likewise, discussing Oracle's design, drawbacks, and limitations without having used it extensively is quite obvious to anyone familiar with Oracle. Using a system extensively can also create blind spots about some of the systems (mis)features. One learns to avoid doing some things without consciously knowing about it. Don't get me wrong, it's fine to prefer one design to another, but pushing discussion items comparing Oracle to PostgreSQL because of things you've heard or read somewhere isn't
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
Jonah H. Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 2/20/07, Gregory Stark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's more like Oracle is optimized for data that's committed long in the past and we're optimized for data that's been recently updated. Wrong. When Oracle says it's committed, it's committed. No difference between when, where, and how. In Oracle, the committed version is *always* the first presented to the user... Sure, and if it was committed long in the past then you can use it. If it's committed recently then you'll have to start looking up rollback data instead. The rest of your post seems to all be predicated on the idea that if data is committed then that's all you'll need to look at. But that's missing precisely the point of what I was saying: In a sense then it's the opposite of what we usually say. Oracle is optimized for mostly static data. Postgres is optimized for changing data. By changing data I meant data in flux, not the action of making changes to the data. Looking at data in flux in Oracle -- even other data that's unchanged but lives on the same page as some record that's in flux -- will require you to look up rollback data and possibly even have to follow many pages of chained rollback data. Looking at data in Postgres has no additional overhead when it's data in flux versus old static data. -- Gregory Stark EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
Tom Lane wrote: August Zajonc [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The key is how lightweight the setup could be, which matters because clients are not always willing to pay for a PITR setup. The low overhead would mean you'd feel fine about setting guc to 1hr or so. This would have exactly the same performance consequences as always having an hour-old open transaction. I'm afraid that describing it as low overhead is mere wishful thinking: it would cripple vacuuming of high-update tables and greatly increase the typical load on pg_clog and pg_subtrans. We already know that pg_subtrans contention can be a source of context-swap storms, with the size of the window back to GlobalXmin being the controlling factor for how bad it gets. It's possible that this last could be addressed by separating the concept of old enough to be vacuumed from GlobalXmin, but it's certainly not a trivial thing. Isn't globalxmin for open transactions? I thought the idea was that everything goes as usual, but you can flip a knob and say that vacuum doesn't vacuum anything more recent then GlobalXmin less x transactions. Then you can look at your transactions per second and get a rough window to work within. Or if there are timestamps on commits, that would switch to a time interval more user friendly. You end up simply delaying when 1hrs worth of transactions gets vacuumed. For folks doing nightly cron job vacuums, not too bad. Autovacuum isn't on by default :) Of course, this will be clumsy if not per database. But the thought might be to take advantage of the flashback data already present under the MVCC model as long as vacuum hasn't hit things (and being willing to stop activity on a database etc). Given that you are delaying a vacuum rather then being more aggressive, and know you can already vacuum up to a more recent transaction xmin, I dunno... Does anything depend (other then performance) on vacuum actually vacuuming as far as it can? - August ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
Andrew, Demanding unlimited undo at some time that is arbitrarilly distant in the future strikes me as wholly unreasonable. I did not mean asking for undo from a life-time log. Since FlashBack Technology is already there, I just mean that world's most advanced database (PostgreSQL, as they say), must have an optimized way for undoing of at least a week changes. A week log is enough and PostgreSQL can keep on removing old logs automatically. Secondly, it must be left to the user to decide for the number of days of archive he want to store. Again upto a week max. RPK wrote: I agree that TimeStamp creates an overhead, but I just want to know if an accidental update happened to a table and this incident got traced three days after, what facility PGSQL provide to bring the table to its original condition. You can't wait regretting on why you did not run ROLLBACK before COMMIT. (Correct me. I am only a user). Why the heck can't you create a reversing transaction? That's what ordinary mortals do. Demanding unlimited undo at some time that is arbitrarilly distant in the future strikes me as wholly unreasonable. What do you mean by accidental update? What you really appear to mean is that a program or a human operator has made an error, and incorrectly told the database to commit a transaction. The answer surely is to correct the behaviour of the program or human, rather than wanting the database to provide an undo facility. Alternatively, this should be handled at the application layer, using something like table_log. Some things just don't work well with this sort of facility. Just ask your bookie if you can undo a bet that you accidentally placed with him and which, three days later, you discover (after the race) was a mistake. cheers andrew ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/New-feature-request%3A-FlashBack-Query-tf3245023.html#a9067564 Sent from the PostgreSQL - hackers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 7: You can help support the PostgreSQL project by donating at http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
RPK [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I did not mean asking for undo from a life-time log. Since FlashBack Technology is already there, I just mean that world's most advanced database (PostgreSQL, as they say), must have an optimized way for undoing of at least a week changes. You're living in a dream world. Do you know any Oracle DBs who keep enough rollback segments to go back a week? regards, tom lane ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
On Feb 20, 2007, at 1:40 PM, Tom Lane wrote: RPK [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I did not mean asking for undo from a life-time log. Since FlashBack Technology is already there, I just mean that world's most advanced database (PostgreSQL, as they say), must have an optimized way for undoing of at least a week changes. You're living in a dream world. Do you know any Oracle DBs who keep enough rollback segments to go back a week? Ours go for a good 6 hours sometimes :-D // Theo Schlossnagle // Esoteric Curio: http://www.lethargy.org/~jesus/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
On 2/20/07, Rod Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do 97% of transactions commit because Oracle has slow rollbacks and developers are working around that performance issue, or because they really commit? Again, off-topic, but 97% of all transactions commit according to Jim Gray and his research... not anything related to Oracle. I have watched several developers that would prefer to issue numerous selects to verify things like foreign keys in the application in order to avoid a rollback. That's just bad development. Anyway, I don't have experience with big Oracle applications but I'm not so sure that 97% of transactions would commit if rollbacks were cheaper. Again, stats not related to Oracle, but databases in general. -- Jonah H. Harris, Software Architect | phone: 732.331.1324 EnterpriseDB Corporation| fax: 732.331.1301 33 Wood Ave S, 3rd Floor| [EMAIL PROTECTED] Iselin, New Jersey 08830| http://www.enterprisedb.com/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
On 2/20/07, Hannu Krosing [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: He probably meant longer transactions and several versions visible to different backends. Yes, he may have... but I was responding to the statements he made. but why shouldn't that be a bit slower, it isn't common practice anyway. Not for pure OLAP, at least when you have fairly fast transactions. But it can slow things down when you have some hotspot tables. True, but hotspots are hotspots and no matter what caused them or where they are, they slow down performance in one area or another. Limiting hotspots is generally an application-level design decision anyway. Same with rollbacks... why should they optimize for them when 97% of transactions commit? Or other way around, - you should write code, where most transactions commit ;) That's what I said, Oracle shouldn't optimize for rollbacks when most transactions commit. Hmm. How can it check visibility at block level and at the same time do in-place updates on single tuples ? In most cases, the block-level SCN determines transaction-level visibility. Now, row locks can exist within that page, but they don't determine visibility... they determine the UNDO location which contains the data required to rebuild a read-consistent version of the block. My proposal of keeping visibility info in a separate heap would help to get similar results, that is mostly 1 check per page. That would also cover much of the index lookup cases below. Most definitely. I don't think we will ever move to rollback segments, but for some use-cases moving visibility to a separate heap could make sense. Yes. And if we want to bring back time travel (see another thread about Flashback Queries), then we may end up implementing the original postgresql's design spec and make VACUUM spihon dead tuples over to archive relations, which already starts looking a little like rollback segments, only for other purposes :) Yes. Using a system extensively can also create blind spots about some of the systems (mis)features. One learns to avoid doing some things without consciously knowing about it. I've used 'em all and can certainly name issues with Oracle. However, we're discussing improving PostgreSQL, I was responding to Greg's statements, and I don't see the need to bring up unrelated Oracle implementation details which will just lead to a general anti-Oracle discussion. To get a really meaningful discussion we should involve someone who has *designed* them, not merely used them . True. My comment is more along the lines of uninformed discussion which leads to Oracle-bashing. Those who have at least used and administered Oracle in production tend to understand Oracle's design decisions and related issues better than those who have just heard of Oracle's issues. I live in the real world and can admit certain failures of any database system regardless of which I prefer. No single database is best for every task. I just didn't want the discussion going where it normally goes, to being one of, we're right and they're wrong. Can we move offline or to another thread if we want to continue discussing Oracle-specifics; otherwise... let's focus on flashback-like functionality in this thread. -- Jonah H. Harris, Software Architect | phone: 732.331.1324 EnterpriseDB Corporation| fax: 732.331.1301 33 Wood Ave S, 3rd Floor| [EMAIL PROTECTED] Iselin, New Jersey 08830| http://www.enterprisedb.com/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
RPK wrote: Andrew, Demanding unlimited undo at some time that is arbitrarilly distant in the future strikes me as wholly unreasonable. I did not mean asking for undo from a life-time log. Since FlashBack Technology is already there, I just mean that world's most advanced database (PostgreSQL, as they say), must have an optimized way for undoing of at least a week changes. A week log is enough and PostgreSQL can keep on removing old logs automatically. Secondly, it must be left to the user to decide for the number of days of archive he want to store. Again upto a week max. You might look at storing delta's or similar (perhaps with a check table ) if you need to change data a week back. Then you can just find the row representing the problematic change and delete it. If you really want to track what happens, do deltas and then instead of deleting them, put a reversing delta in, keeping your entire audit trail. You can put materialized views on top of this if you need performance. - August ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
Hello, On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 06:49:42 -0800 (PST) RPK [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: PostgreSQL, already a mature database, needs to have more options for recovery as compared to proprietary databases. I just worked with Oracle's FlashBack query feature in Oracle 9i and FlashBack Table feature in 10g. Future versions of PostgreSQL must have similar features which enable users to bring Table(s) and/or Database(s) to a desired Time Stamp. There is a pgfoundry project which tries to achieve this: http://pgfoundry.org/projects/tablelog/ Kind regards -- Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum German PostgreSQL Usergroup: http://www.pgug.de ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
Ühel kenal päeval, P, 2007-02-18 kell 14:27, kirjutas Joshua D. Drake: Hannu Krosing wrote: Ühel kenal päeval, L, 2007-02-17 kell 22:49, kirjutas Chad Wagner: However, they don't have vacuum, we do. Right, and I think that is more or less because Oracle doesn't need it. Vacuum's main purpose (correct me if I am wrong) is to recover/mark rows that are no longer used, and Oracle essentially reuses the space immediately. Obviously with Oracle if you bloat out a table and delete a ton of rows then you have to rebuild the table, but that is more or less the same problem that PostgreSQL has and where vacuum full comes into play. The only benefit with the Oracle model is that you can achieve flashback, which is a very rarely used feature in my book. We can have flashbacks up to the last vacuum. It is just not exposed. Don't vacuum, and you have the whole history. (Actually you can't go for more than 2G transactions, or you get trx id rollover). To get a flashback query, you just have to construct a snapshot from that time and you are done. We don't store transaction times anywere, so the flashback has to be by transaction id, but there is very little extra work involved. We just don't have syntax for saying SELECT ... AS SEEN BY TRANSACTION XXX Well this is certainly interesting. What do we think it would take to enable the functionality? First we must run the query in serializable mode and replace the snapshot with a synthetic one, which defines visibility at the start of the desired transaction probably it is a good idea to take a lock on all tables involved to avoid a vacuum to be started on them when the query is running. also, we can't trust the DELETED flags in index pages, so we should forbid index scans, or just always re-check the visibility in heap. Otherways it would probably be enough to just scan tuples as usual, and check if they were visible to desired transaction, that is they were inserted before that transaction and they are not deleted before that trx. Of course this will not be true, once we have HOT/WIP with in-page vacuuming. -- Hannu Krosing Database Architect Skype Technologies OÜ Akadeemia tee 21 F, Tallinn, 12618, Estonia Skype me: callto:hkrosing Get Skype for free: http://www.skype.com ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
Hannu Krosing wrote: Ühel kenal päeval, P, 2007-02-18 kell 14:27, kirjutas Joshua D. Drake: Hannu Krosing wrote: Ühel kenal päeval, L, 2007-02-17 kell 22:49, kirjutas Chad Wagner: To get a flashback query, you just have to construct a snapshot from that time and you are done. We don't store transaction times anywere, so the flashback has to be by transaction id, but there is very little extra work involved. We just don't have syntax for saying SELECT ... AS SEEN BY TRANSACTION XXX Well this is certainly interesting. What do we think it would take to enable the functionality? First we must run the query in serializable mode and replace the snapshot with a synthetic one, which defines visibility at the start of the desired transaction probably it is a good idea to take a lock on all tables involved to avoid a vacuum to be started on them when the query is running. Would the xmin exported by that transaction prevent vacuum from removing any tuples still needed for the flashback snapshot? greetings, Florian Pflug ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
Florian G. Pflug escribió: Hannu Krosing wrote: Ühel kenal päeval, P, 2007-02-18 kell 14:27, kirjutas Joshua D. Drake: Hannu Krosing wrote: Ühel kenal päeval, L, 2007-02-17 kell 22:49, kirjutas Chad Wagner: To get a flashback query, you just have to construct a snapshot from that time and you are done. We don't store transaction times anywere, so the flashback has to be by transaction id, but there is very little extra work involved. We just don't have syntax for saying SELECT ... AS SEEN BY TRANSACTION XXX Well this is certainly interesting. What do we think it would take to enable the functionality? First we must run the query in serializable mode and replace the snapshot with a synthetic one, which defines visibility at the start of the desired transaction probably it is a good idea to take a lock on all tables involved to avoid a vacuum to be started on them when the query is running. Would the xmin exported by that transaction prevent vacuum from removing any tuples still needed for the flashback snapshot? Sure, and that makes the mentioned lock unnecessary. -- Alvaro Herrerahttp://www.CommandPrompt.com/ The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
Well this is certainly interesting. What do we think it would take to enable the functionality? First we must run the query in serializable mode and replace the snapshot with a synthetic one, which defines visibility at the start of the desired transaction We could use something that controls global xmin. It would ensure, that global xmin does not advance bejond what still needs to be visible. This would probably be a sliding time window, or a fixed point in time that is released by the dba/user. Then all below is not really different from a situation where you had a long running tx. probably it is a good idea to take a lock on all tables involved to avoid a vacuum to be started on them when the query is running. also, we can't trust the DELETED flags in index pages, so we should forbid index scans, or just always re-check the visibility in heap. Otherways it would probably be enough to just scan tuples as usual, and check if they were visible to desired transaction, that is they were inserted before that transaction and they are not deleted before that trx. Of course this will not be true, once we have HOT/WIP with in-page vacuuming. Currently I think HOT does honor global xmin. There is no lookup for relevant xids, so parts of an update chain where only a previous tuple or a later tuple can be visible are reused. Else Hot would need to be told not to, in a scenario where a backend can choose a snapshot at will. Andreas ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
First we must run the query in serializable mode and replace the snapshot with a synthetic one, which defines visibility at the start of the desired transaction probably it is a good idea to take a lock on all tables involved to avoid a vacuum to be started on them when the query is running. Would the xmin exported by that transaction prevent vacuum from removing any tuples still needed for the flashback snapshot? Sure, and that makes the mentioned lock unnecessary. Problem is, that that transaction sets a historic snapshot at a later time, so it is not yet running when vacuum looks at global xmin. So something else needs to hold up global xmin (see prev post). Andreas ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
Zeugswetter Andreas ADI SD wrote: First we must run the query in serializable mode and replace the snapshot with a synthetic one, which defines visibility at the start of the desired transaction probably it is a good idea to take a lock on all tables involved to avoid a vacuum to be started on them when the query is running. Would the xmin exported by that transaction prevent vacuum from removing any tuples still needed for the flashback snapshot? Sure, and that makes the mentioned lock unnecessary. Problem is, that that transaction sets a historic snapshot at a later time, so it is not yet running when vacuum looks at global xmin. So something else needs to hold up global xmin (see prev post). I think to make this flashback stuff fly, you'd need to know the earliest xmin that you can still flashback too. Vacuum would advance that xmin, as soon as it starts working. So the case you'd need to protect against would be a race condition when you start a vacuum and a flashback transaction at the same time. But for that, some simple semaphore should suffice, and a well-thought-out ordering of the actions taken. In the long run, you'd probably want to store the commit-times of transactions somewhere, and add some guc that makes a vacuum assume that recently comitted transaction (say, in the last hour) are still considered active. That allow the dba to guarantee that he can always flashback at least a hour. greetings, Florian Pflug ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
Zeugswetter Andreas ADI SD [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: First we must run the query in serializable mode and replace the snapshot with a synthetic one, which defines visibility at the start of the desired transaction We could use something that controls global xmin. It would ensure, that global xmin does not advance bejond what still needs to be visible. This would probably be a sliding time window, or a fixed point in time that is released by the dba/user. Well there's another detail you have to cover aside from rolling back your xmin. You have to find the rest of the snapshot including knowing what other transactions were in-progress at the time you want to flash back to. If you just roll back xmin and set xmax to the same value you'll get a consistent view of the database but it may not match a view that was ever current. That is, some of the transactions after the target xmin may have committed before that xmin. So there was never a time in the database when they were invisible but your new xmin was visible. I think to do this you'll need to periodically record a snapshot and then later restore one of those saved snapshots. Not sure where would be a good place to record them. The WAL seems like a handy place but digging through the WAL would be annoying. Incidentally this is one of the things that would be useful for read-only access to PITR warm standby machines. -- Gregory Stark EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 7: You can help support the PostgreSQL project by donating at http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Feb 19, 2007 at 04:00:09PM +0100, Florian G. Pflug wrote: [...] In the long run, you'd probably want to store the commit-times of transactions somewhere, and add some guc that makes a vacuum assume that recently comitted transaction (say, in the last hour) are still considered active [...] Funny how some things recur: http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2007-01/msg01301.php (says I and seeks shelter beneath a big rock ;-) Regards - -- tomás -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFF2c3RBcgs9XrR2kYRAh1PAJ442IXzr0CjN0w5a3BpwBrKgVGvsgCcCmyh mnM5AUTHo4uIZ/WCnWxLVM0= =1aUG -END PGP SIGNATURE- ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
Gregory Stark wrote: Zeugswetter Andreas ADI SD [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: First we must run the query in serializable mode and replace the snapshot with a synthetic one, which defines visibility at the start of the desired transaction We could use something that controls global xmin. It would ensure, that global xmin does not advance bejond what still needs to be visible. This would probably be a sliding time window, or a fixed point in time that is released by the dba/user. Well there's another detail you have to cover aside from rolling back your xmin. You have to find the rest of the snapshot including knowing what other transactions were in-progress at the time you want to flash back to. If you just roll back xmin and set xmax to the same value you'll get a consistent view of the database but it may not match a view that was ever current. That is, some of the transactions after the target xmin may have committed before that xmin. So there was never a time in the database when they were invisible but your new xmin was visible. [...] Incidentally this is one of the things that would be useful for read-only access to PITR warm standby machines. Couldn't you define things simply to be that you get a consistent view including all transactions started before x transaction? This is time travel lite, but low overhead which I think is a key benefit of this approach. A huge value for this would be in the oops, I deleted my data category. Postgresql rarely looses data, but clients seem to have a habit of doing so, and then going oops. This seems to happen most often when facing something like a reporting deadline where they are moving lots of stuff around and making copies and sometimes delete the wrong company recordset or equivalent, even with confirmation dialogs at the app level. This would give a quick and easy oops procedure to the client. DBA set's guc to 1hr, tells client, if you make a big mistake, stop database server as follows and call. Frankly, would bail a few DBA's out as well. The key is how lightweight the setup could be, which matters because clients are not always willing to pay for a PITR setup. The low overhead would mean you'd feel fine about setting guc to 1hr or so. As a % of total installed instances I suspect the % with PITR is small. I've got stuff I snapshot nightly, but that's it. So don't have an easy out from the oops query either. - August ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
August Zajonc wrote: Gregory Stark wrote: Zeugswetter Andreas ADI SD [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: First we must run the query in serializable mode and replace the snapshot with a synthetic one, which defines visibility at the start of the desired transaction We could use something that controls global xmin. It would ensure, that global xmin does not advance bejond what still needs to be visible. This would probably be a sliding time window, or a fixed point in time that is released by the dba/user. Well there's another detail you have to cover aside from rolling back your xmin. You have to find the rest of the snapshot including knowing what other transactions were in-progress at the time you want to flash back to. If you just roll back xmin and set xmax to the same value you'll get a consistent view of the database but it may not match a view that was ever current. That is, some of the transactions after the target xmin may have committed before that xmin. So there was never a time in the database when they were invisible but your new xmin was visible. [...] Incidentally this is one of the things that would be useful for read-only access to PITR warm standby machines. Couldn't you define things simply to be that you get a consistent view including all transactions started before x transaction? This is time travel lite, but low overhead which I think is a key benefit of this approach. I was thinking along the same line. Flashback is probably ony really usefull on databases that are mostly read-only, but with a few users who update data. You'd use flashback to undo catastrophic changes done by accident, and probably will gladly accept that you undo a little more work than strictly necessary. On the contrary, if you're running a online shop were people buy stuff 24/7, and, say, somebody accidentally deletes some producs, than you won't want to loose the orders happened during that last hour, but will rather try to regenerate that products from your last backup. So I don't think that it's too important what snapshot you get exactly, making the xmin=xmax idea feasable. The same holds true for PITR warm standby (readonly queries on pitr slaves). This would be used for reporting, or load-balancing of searches in fairly static data - all of which won't depend on the exact snapshot you get. greetings, Florian Pflug ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 20:30:59 +0100, Florian G. Pflug [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: August Zajonc wrote: Gregory Stark wrote: Couldn't you define things simply to be that you get a consistent view including all transactions started before x transaction? This is time travel lite, but low overhead which I think is a key benefit of this approach. I was thinking along the same line. Flashback is probably ony really usefull on databases that are mostly read-only, but with a few users who update data. You'd use flashback to undo catastrophic changes done by accident, and probably will gladly accept that you undo a little more work than strictly necessary. On the contrary, if you're running a online shop were people buy stuff 24/7, and, say, somebody accidentally deletes some producs, than you won't want to loose the orders happened during that last hour, but will rather try to regenerate that products from your last backup. Hopefully people doing order systems are using PITR or similar :) For the time travel light case, it's just a matter of clear definition. You get all transactions that were *started* before and up to x trx. If the transaction rolled back you still won't see it, so you're still getting a consistent view. But if it committed after your marker you will see it. That seems ok to me. In fact, I suspect folks think of transactions as happening more or less when they get sent to the DB, so this may map more directly to what people expect. The one caveat would be that if you started a long running transaction, then did the oops trx 5 minutes later, and then started time travel *before* the long running trx committed. In that case you wouldn't see that long running trx, so the definition would need to be modified to be something like all trx started before x, that were no longer running when you time travel. Don't know if it is worth a NOTICE in the logs if you time travel back, but there are id's of transactions from before your xmin that are still running (and if you waited a bit might become visable in your time travel view). If Jan gets his way with a timestamp on trx commit, then you can do started before x time, which may be more user friendly. For PITR I'd imagine you might actually be able to get the visability right no? Havn't looked deeply enough into the wal logs to understand how the partial playback scanario works. If the wal logs are ordered on trx commit time, then you'd get proper visability. - August ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
August Zajonc [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The key is how lightweight the setup could be, which matters because clients are not always willing to pay for a PITR setup. The low overhead would mean you'd feel fine about setting guc to 1hr or so. This would have exactly the same performance consequences as always having an hour-old open transaction. I'm afraid that describing it as low overhead is mere wishful thinking: it would cripple vacuuming of high-update tables and greatly increase the typical load on pg_clog and pg_subtrans. We already know that pg_subtrans contention can be a source of context-swap storms, with the size of the window back to GlobalXmin being the controlling factor for how bad it gets. It's possible that this last could be addressed by separating the concept of old enough to be vacuumed from GlobalXmin, but it's certainly not a trivial thing. regards, tom lane ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
On 2/17/07, Joshua D. Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My understanding is that the main difference is that rollbacks are inexpensive for us, but expensive for Oracle. Yes, Oracle is optimized for COMMIT, we're optimized for ROLLBACK :) In all seriousness, last time I checked Oracle's MVCC was covered by two patents. -- Jonah H. Harris, Software Architect | phone: 732.331.1324 EnterpriseDB Corporation| fax: 732.331.1301 33 Wood Ave S, 3rd Floor| [EMAIL PROTECTED] Iselin, New Jersey 08830| http://www.enterprisedb.com/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
Ühel kenal päeval, L, 2007-02-17 kell 22:49, kirjutas Chad Wagner: However, they don't have vacuum, we do. Right, and I think that is more or less because Oracle doesn't need it. Vacuum's main purpose (correct me if I am wrong) is to recover/mark rows that are no longer used, and Oracle essentially reuses the space immediately. Obviously with Oracle if you bloat out a table and delete a ton of rows then you have to rebuild the table, but that is more or less the same problem that PostgreSQL has and where vacuum full comes into play. The only benefit with the Oracle model is that you can achieve flashback, which is a very rarely used feature in my book. We can have flashbacks up to the last vacuum. It is just not exposed. Don't vacuum, and you have the whole history. (Actually you can't go for more than 2G transactions, or you get trx id rollover). To get a flashback query, you just have to construct a snapshot from that time and you are done. We don't store transaction times anywere, so the flashback has to be by transaction id, but there is very little extra work involved. We just don't have syntax for saying SELECT ... AS SEEN BY TRANSACTION XXX AFAIK, Oracles flashbacks also can go as far back as there are rollback segments. Postgres' original design prescribed, that VACUUM would not delete dead tuples, but just move them to history tables on cheap(er) WORM storage. Doing that would have very little overhead (except writing the old tuples) and would not need any fundamental changes to how we do things currently. The disadvantages is likely overhead to perform the rollback and possibly more scattered reads. I've also heard reports, that doing concurrent data loading and big analysis queries is a royal pain in Oracle. I can say that I have used it, and it has come in handy, but hardly worth it. The benefit with the PostgreSQL model is the likelihood of the old rows being inline with the rest of the table data, potentially reducing scattered reads. The disadvantage is vacuuming, it seems to be often overlooked -- possibly solved by defaulting autovacuum to on? (seems to be the way Oracle is heading, defaulting statistics collection to on and other management features). -- Hannu Krosing Database Architect Skype Technologies OÜ Akadeemia tee 21 F, Tallinn, 12618, Estonia Skype me: callto:hkrosing Get Skype for free: http://www.skype.com ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 7: You can help support the PostgreSQL project by donating at http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
Hannu Krosing wrote: Ühel kenal päeval, L, 2007-02-17 kell 22:49, kirjutas Chad Wagner: However, they don't have vacuum, we do. Right, and I think that is more or less because Oracle doesn't need it. Vacuum's main purpose (correct me if I am wrong) is to recover/mark rows that are no longer used, and Oracle essentially reuses the space immediately. Obviously with Oracle if you bloat out a table and delete a ton of rows then you have to rebuild the table, but that is more or less the same problem that PostgreSQL has and where vacuum full comes into play. The only benefit with the Oracle model is that you can achieve flashback, which is a very rarely used feature in my book. We can have flashbacks up to the last vacuum. It is just not exposed. Don't vacuum, and you have the whole history. (Actually you can't go for more than 2G transactions, or you get trx id rollover). To get a flashback query, you just have to construct a snapshot from that time and you are done. We don't store transaction times anywere, so the flashback has to be by transaction id, but there is very little extra work involved. We just don't have syntax for saying SELECT ... AS SEEN BY TRANSACTION XXX Well this is certainly interesting. What do we think it would take to enable the functionality? Joshua D. Drake -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
[HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
PostgreSQL, already a mature database, needs to have more options for recovery as compared to proprietary databases. I just worked with Oracle's FlashBack query feature in Oracle 9i and FlashBack Table feature in 10g. Future versions of PostgreSQL must have similar features which enable users to bring Table(s) and/or Database(s) to a desired Time Stamp. -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/New-feature-request%3A-FlashBack-Query-tf3245023.html#a9020502 Sent from the PostgreSQL - hackers mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
RPK wrote: PostgreSQL, already a mature database, needs to have more options for recovery as compared to proprietary databases. I just worked with Oracle's FlashBack query feature in Oracle 9i and FlashBack Table feature in 10g. Future versions of PostgreSQL must have similar features which enable users to bring Table(s) and/or Database(s) to a desired Time Stamp. We can do it with databases, we can't do it with tables. Nor should we do it with tables as it would require that all tables in relation are also flashed backed. Joshua D. Drake -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
Joshua D. Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: RPK wrote: Future versions of PostgreSQL must have similar features which enable users to bring Table(s) and/or Database(s) to a desired Time Stamp. We can do it with databases, we can't do it with tables. Nor should we do it with tables as it would require that all tables in relation are also flashed backed. AFAICT this is a request to re-instate Time Travel, which is a feature we removed more than ten years ago because the overhead was utterly unacceptable. And the project's idea of acceptable performance then was orders of magnitude weaker than it is now. So it's not going to happen, at least not in the general release. You might take a look at contrib/spi/README.timetravel, though, for a prototype of how something similar can be achieved without any changes to the core system. That module is a bit unmaintained and could doubtless do with some updates --- for starters, it should be using timestamptz instead of the old deprecated abstime. If you're interested, feel free to work on it. No one else has taken an interest in a long time. regards, tom lane ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
On Sat, Feb 17, 2007 at 11:48:55AM -0500, Tom Lane wrote: Joshua D. Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: RPK wrote: Future versions of PostgreSQL must have similar features which enable users to bring Table(s) and/or Database(s) to a desired Time Stamp. We can do it with databases, we can't do it with tables. Nor should we do it with tables as it would require that all tables in relation are also flashed backed. AFAICT this is a request to re-instate Time Travel, which is a feature we removed more than ten years ago because the overhead was utterly unacceptable. And the project's idea of acceptable performance then was orders of magnitude weaker than it is now. So it's not going to happen, at least not in the general release. You might take a look at contrib/spi/README.timetravel, though, for a prototype of how something similar can be achieved without any changes to the core system. That module is a bit unmaintained and could doubtless do with some updates --- for starters, it should be using timestamptz instead of the old deprecated abstime. If you're interested, feel free to work on it. No one else has taken an interest in a long time. For other recent time travel ideas see: http://www.varlena.com/GeneralBits/122.php Time travel is not cheap, though. --elein [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
On 2/17/07, elein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For other recent time travel ideas see: http://www.varlena.com/GeneralBits/122.php Time travel is not cheap, though. I am sure this topic has probably been beaten to death in the past, but has anyone talked about the advantages of Oracle's MVCC model versus PostgreSQL's MVCC model? Oracle achieves multiversioning by using rollback/undo segments, where PostgreSQL appears to place (essentially) the undo in the same space as the table. If I were to guess this is probably a major thing to change. Clearly there are advantages to both, with Oracle essentially the space consumed by a modified row is immediately available for reuse and generally there is little row migration assuming there is enough space on the block so you should be able to avoid updates to the index and the bloating that seems to go along with vacuuming. Is there any previous discussions that folks could point out here?
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
Chad Wagner wrote: On 2/17/07, elein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For other recent time travel ideas see: http://www.varlena.com/GeneralBits/122.php Time travel is not cheap, though. I am sure this topic has probably been beaten to death in the past, but has anyone talked about the advantages of Oracle's MVCC model versus PostgreSQL's MVCC model? Oracle achieves multiversioning by using rollback/undo segments, where PostgreSQL appears to place (essentially) the undo in the same space as the table. My understanding is that the main difference is that rollbacks are inexpensive for us, but expensive for Oracle. Talk to an Oracle DBA about their Rollback logs :0. However, they don't have vacuum, we do. Joshua D. Drake If I were to guess this is probably a major thing to change. Clearly there are advantages to both, with Oracle essentially the space consumed by a modified row is immediately available for reuse and generally there is little row migration assuming there is enough space on the block so you should be able to avoid updates to the index and the bloating that seems to go along with vacuuming. Is there any previous discussions that folks could point out here? -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
On 2/17/07, Joshua D. Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My understanding is that the main difference is that rollbacks are inexpensive for us, but expensive for Oracle. Talk to an Oracle DBA about their Rollback logs :0. Yes, I have seen cases where undo segments are thrashed. Generally it works well, and I agree it likely much cheaper on PostgreSQL as you would expect fewer scattered reads because the old version is inline with the rest of the data. But if I recall undo segments are cached in Oracle, usually where I see problems is where the DBA is completely incompetent and has undersized the buffer cache. Oracle does direct reads (afaik) -- so undersizing the buffer cache can be brutal. A very common mistake with Oracle was undersizing the buffer cache and oversizing the shared pool (when the shared plans are stored), and with 9i and later they tried to have the management tools suggest the ideal values or have it automatically managed by the database. Probably a step in the right direction, but I know they still have bumps to iron it. :) However, they don't have vacuum, we do. Right, and I think that is more or less because Oracle doesn't need it. Vacuum's main purpose (correct me if I am wrong) is to recover/mark rows that are no longer used, and Oracle essentially reuses the space immediately. Obviously with Oracle if you bloat out a table and delete a ton of rows then you have to rebuild the table, but that is more or less the same problem that PostgreSQL has and where vacuum full comes into play. The only benefit with the Oracle model is that you can achieve flashback, which is a very rarely used feature in my book. The disadvantages is likely overhead to perform the rollback and possibly more scattered reads. I can say that I have used it, and it has come in handy, but hardly worth it. The benefit with the PostgreSQL model is the likelihood of the old rows being inline with the rest of the table data, potentially reducing scattered reads. The disadvantage is vacuuming, it seems to be often overlooked -- possibly solved by defaulting autovacuum to on? (seems to be the way Oracle is heading, defaulting statistics collection to on and other management features).
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
Chad Wagner [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am sure this topic has probably been beaten to death in the past, but has anyone talked about the advantages of Oracle's MVCC model versus PostgreSQL's MVCC model? Yes, we've been all through that. We like ours. See the archives. regards, tom lane ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [HACKERS] New feature request: FlashBack Query
On Saturday 17 February 2007 07:49, RPK wrote: PostgreSQL, already a mature database, needs to have more options for recovery as compared to proprietary databases. I just worked with Oracle's FlashBack query feature in Oracle 9i and FlashBack Table feature in 10g. Future versions of PostgreSQL must have similar features which enable users to bring Table(s) and/or Database(s) to a desired Time Stamp. Check out my proposal[1] for Temporal extensions. Ultimately, creating valid time and transaction time tables would be possible through my proposal. Please check it out. [1]http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2007-02/msg00540.php wt -- Warren Turkal (w00t) ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
