[issue13418] Embedded Python memory leak

2011-11-17 Thread Amaury Forgeot d'Arc

Amaury Forgeot d'Arc amaur...@gmail.com added the comment:

These are not memory leaks, but global state that the Python interpreter does 
not bother to free on exit. The amount of memory there is limited.

Yes, I agree that this makes the basic memory checker built in Visual Studio 
completely useless.

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[issue13416] Python Tutorial, Section 3, Minor PEP 8 adjustment

2011-11-17 Thread Ezio Melotti

Changes by Ezio Melotti ezio.melo...@gmail.com:


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[issue13419] import does not recognise SYMLINKDs on Windows 7

2011-11-17 Thread Tim Golden

Changes by Tim Golden m...@timgolden.me.uk:


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[issue13406] Deprecation warnings when running the test suite

2011-11-17 Thread Roundup Robot

Roundup Robot devn...@psf.upfronthosting.co.za added the comment:

New changeset fe2be7d35660 by Ezio Melotti in branch 'default':
#13406: fix more deprecation warnings and move the deprecation of 
unicode-internal earlier in the code.
http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/fe2be7d35660

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[issue13418] Embedded Python memory leak

2011-11-17 Thread Asesh

Asesh aseshsh...@gmail.com added the comment:

ok thanks for the replies. Actually I have python embedded in my game but now 
the real problem now is how do I differentiate from the real memory leak caused 
either by Python or by my application? Disabling memory leak check is not an 
option since it's been very helpful when debugging my C++ apps

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[issue13420] newer() function in dep_util.py discard changes in the same second

2011-11-17 Thread David Amian

New submission from David Amian dam...@emergya.com:

Hi, I had a problem making deb packages with distutils and cdbs. Looking for 
any solution, I found Issue 11933 and saw that the newer() method has been 
changed, using [ST_MTIME] instead of st_mtime. This commit is to solve Issue 
10148 that describes a bug when copying files with python, it depends on the 
filesystem.

In these changes, modification time of files are checked as a integer, 
discarding the millisec. It makes the issue.

For example, I've a file that is modified with an installation prefix. CDBS 
runs the build step and after the install step. In build step, the prefix is 
'/usr/local' because the prefix argument isn't supported, immediately the 
install step runs with prefix='/usr', so the file that contains a variable with 
project path modified with the prefix is not copied by distutils, it runs in a 
different millisec but in the same second.

Then when install my app, it crashes because the variable with project path is 
'/usr/local' instead of '/usr' and this variable is used in the source.

To solve this problem I made ​​some modifications on file_util.py and 
dep_util.py files, I revert the changes of the issue 11933, but rounding all 
times returned by stat() with two decimals. With that changes, distutils is not 
affected by the Issue 10148 and if any file is modified in the same second, but 
in different millisec, distutils will compare it and it wil copy the file.

--
assignee: tarek
components: Distutils
files: fix_mtime.diff
keywords: patch
messages: 147794
nosy: d.amian, eric.araujo, tarek
priority: normal
severity: normal
status: open
title: newer() function in dep_util.py discard changes in the same second
type: behavior
versions: Python 2.7
Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file23716/fix_mtime.diff

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[issue13349] Uninformal error message in index() and remove() functions

2011-11-17 Thread Petri Lehtinen

Petri Lehtinen pe...@digip.org added the comment:

Éric Araujo wrote:
  On the other hand, the repr of a value might be very long:
 You can restrict the length with % formats.

Seems you can't with %R. I'd also like to somehow indicate that
the output is truncated.

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[issue13419] import does not recognise SYMLINKDs on Windows 7

2011-11-17 Thread Brian Curtin

Brian Curtin br...@python.org added the comment:

Duplicate of #6727

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superseder:  - ImportError when package is symlinked on Windows

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[issue6727] ImportError when package is symlinked on Windows

2011-11-17 Thread Jason R. Coombs

Jason R. Coombs jar...@jaraco.com added the comment:

If this issue is important to you, please follow the link above to the 
Microsoft Connect site and vote for the issue. More votes should mean it will 
get more attention. Thanks.

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[issue6727] ImportError when package is symlinked on Windows

2011-11-17 Thread Alex Regueiro

Alex Regueiro alex...@gmail.com added the comment:

Is this bug going to be fixed? I've been experiencing this for some time now, 
and it seems the Python team has known about it for a while too... seems like 
an easy fix!

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[issue6727] ImportError when package is symlinked on Windows

2011-11-17 Thread Brian Curtin

Brian Curtin br...@python.org added the comment:

Not fixed, but if it's easy, you're welcome to fix it before we get around to 
it.

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[issue6727] ImportError when package is symlinked on Windows

2011-11-17 Thread Alex Regueiro

Alex Regueiro alex...@gmail.com added the comment:

Well, I am making an assumption here. :-)

Might have a look at a patch. Never looked at the Python runtime before. If 
it's all written in C, then it's possible. I'm guessing most of the Python 
programmers don't know much/anything about Win32 programming, so that probably 
explains the delay.

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[issue13405] Add DTrace probes

2011-11-17 Thread Jesús Cea Avión

Jesús Cea Avión j...@jcea.es added the comment:

The LD_LIBRARY_PATH is because I am compiling Python as a shared lib and, of 
course, I am not installing the development version in the usual system path.

That is, it is not a requirement for this project, but an easy to follow 
procedure for unexperienced betatesters.

About the permissions, the situation is messy because under Solaris a regular 
user can not run dtrace unless special permissions be assigned to her. The 
situation is something like this: (talking about Solaris 10):

* Global Zone:
 - root: dtrace works.
 - Regular user: dtrace is going to show a permission denied error, unless an 
admin had set dtrace user/proc permissions to him. If that is the case, it 
works.

* Non Global Zone:
 - root: dtrace seems to work, but no probes can be found unless special dtrace 
user/proc permissions are assigned to the zone.
 - regular user: dtrace is going to show a permission denied error, unless an 
admin had set dtrace user/proc permissions to him. In that case, it will behave 
like root. That is, no probes found unles the zone have the right 
capabilities.

The permission denied error can be easily detected and managed, but the 
silent error is not distinguible of this project not working. I am thinking 
about trying first an always present well known probe, to detect when the 
kernel is activelly ignoring dtrace instead of giving a clear permission error.

I have requested to the sysadmins of my OpenIndiana buildbots to activate 
dtrace (of user code) in my zone, so I can evaluate the behaviour under 
OpenIndiana/Illumos.

A couple of details I want to document here, to remember then and to ask for 
advice:

- I have added a sys.trace_capabilities, so a program can know if any 
system-trace functionality is compiled in. Current values are None and 
(dtrace, Sun). Maybe create a new dtrace module could be appropiate, 
instead, with dtrace.supported=True/False, but I am thinking about future 
MacOS probes, Linux systemtap probes, etc.

- Current code only traces function calls *TO* Python code. If the function 
calls is to C code (os.getpid(), for instance), the call is not visible. I 
think this is a major deficience, apparently shared by all the previous 
attempts I have seen (including official Sun probes).

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[issue6727] ImportError when package is symlinked on Windows

2011-11-17 Thread Brian Curtin

Brian Curtin br...@python.org added the comment:

There are a few of us, and Jason and myself have done most of the Windows 
symlink related work. We'll certainly get to this and have it fixed, but with 
no releases on the immediate horizon, there isn't a rush. This and your other 
symlink issue are on my radar for things to make sure we cover.

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[issue6727] ImportError when package is symlinked on Windows

2011-11-17 Thread Alex Regueiro

Alex Regueiro alex...@gmail.com added the comment:

Thanks Brian; that's good to know. If we could get it in the next release 
(Python 2.8?) that would be awesome.

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[issue13405] Add DTrace probes

2011-11-17 Thread Antoine Pitrou

Changes by Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr:


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[issue13357] HTMLParser parses attributes incorrectly.

2011-11-17 Thread Ezio Melotti

Ezio Melotti ezio.melo...@gmail.com added the comment:

I verified with the red_test.html you provided and now HTMLParser seems to 
parse everything correctly, so I'm closing this.

--
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stage: test needed - committed/rejected
status: open - closed
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[issue6727] ImportError when package is symlinked on Windows

2011-11-17 Thread Amaury Forgeot d'Arc

Amaury Forgeot d'Arc amaur...@gmail.com added the comment:

 If we could get it in the next release (Python 2.8?) that would be awesome.
I doubt it will (see PEP 404) but 3.3 is a good target.

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[issue13358] HTMLParser incorrectly handles cdata elements.

2011-11-17 Thread Michael Brooks

Michael Brooks firealwayswo...@gmail.com added the comment:

Has anyone else been able to verify this?

On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Michael Brooks rep...@bugs.python.orgwrote:


 Michael Brooks firealwayswo...@gmail.com added the comment:

 This one should also have a priority change. Tested python 2.7.3

 --MIke

 On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Michael Brooks rep...@bugs.python.org
 wrote:

 
  Michael Brooks firealwayswo...@gmail.com added the comment:
 
  Yes I am running python 2.7.2.
 
  On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 12:52 PM, Ezio Melotti rep...@bugs.python.org
  wrote:
 
  
   Ezio Melotti ezio.melo...@gmail.com added the comment:
  
   Have you tried with the latest 2.7? (see msg147170)
  
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[issue13358] HTMLParser incorrectly handles cdata elements.

2011-11-17 Thread Ezio Melotti

Ezio Melotti ezio.melo...@gmail.com added the comment:

I'm working on it, but a minimal example seems to work fine.

(P.S. there's no need to quote the previous message(s) while replying)

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[issue13405] Add DTrace probes

2011-11-17 Thread Jesús Cea Avión

Changes by Jesús Cea Avión j...@jcea.es:


Removed file: http://bugs.python.org/file23690/05fde8943685.diff

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[issue13405] Add DTrace probes

2011-11-17 Thread Jesús Cea Avión

Changes by Jesús Cea Avión j...@jcea.es:


Removed file: http://bugs.python.org/file23691/1563b5a70362.diff

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[issue13405] Add DTrace probes

2011-11-17 Thread Jesús Cea Avión

Changes by Jesús Cea Avión j...@jcea.es:


Removed file: http://bugs.python.org/file23696/9fcca74ff413.diff

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[issue13405] Add DTrace probes

2011-11-17 Thread Jesús Cea Avión

Changes by Jesús Cea Avión j...@jcea.es:


Removed file: http://bugs.python.org/file23701/7a2465f6a56a.diff

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[issue13405] Add DTrace probes

2011-11-17 Thread Jesús Cea Avión

Changes by Jesús Cea Avión j...@jcea.es:


Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file23717/7c1b63f949e7.diff

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[issue13405] Add DTrace probes

2011-11-17 Thread Jesús Cea Avión

Jesús Cea Avión j...@jcea.es added the comment:

New changeset: 7c1b63f949e7.diff

Now I detect lacking of dtrace privileges, both in the global zone and in a 
non-global zone.

For that, I verify that the process can actually insert a C-entry point probe 
in a well known function: PyEval_EvalCode. This should work ALWAYS, even if the 
dtrace instrumentation provided by this fails miserably.

We have to remember if we change that function name, someday...

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[issue13358] HTMLParser incorrectly handles cdata elements.

2011-11-17 Thread Ezio Melotti

Ezio Melotti ezio.melo...@gmail.com added the comment:

It seems to me that the arguments are parsed correctly, but handle_data is 
called multiple time between handle_starttag and handle_endtag.
This might happen, e.g. in case the source lines are fed one by one to the 
parser, but in this case seems to happen whenever / is found.
(The tests didn't detect this because they join the data to avoid buffer 
artifacts.)
I'm not sure if this can be considered a bug, but the situation can indeed be 
improved.

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[issue13064] Port codecs and error handlers to the new Unicode API

2011-11-17 Thread STINNER Victor

Changes by STINNER Victor victor.stin...@haypocalc.com:


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[issue13405] Add DTrace probes

2011-11-17 Thread Danek Duvall

Danek Duvall duv...@comfychair.org added the comment:

 - I have added a sys.trace_capabilities, so a program can know if any
 system-trace functionality is compiled in. Current values are None
 and (dtrace, Sun).

I'm not sure Sun is the right name here.  I'd say either SunOS or Solaris 
(or the lowercase of either).  Sun typically refers to Sun hardware, which 
isn't relevant here, and the company, which doesn't exist anymore, also isn't 
particularly relevant.

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[issue13411] Hashable memoryviews

2011-11-17 Thread STINNER Victor

STINNER Victor victor.stin...@haypocalc.com added the comment:

Does memory_hash() reject non-contiguous memory?

_Py_HashBytes() might be reused by unicode_hash() for PyUnicode_1BYTE_KIND.

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[issue13411] Hashable memoryviews

2011-11-17 Thread STINNER Victor

STINNER Victor victor.stin...@haypocalc.com added the comment:

Except these two minor nits, the patch looks good to me.

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[issue13411] Hashable memoryviews

2011-11-17 Thread Antoine Pitrou

Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:

 Does memory_hash() reject non-contiguous memory?

It should, since it checks the strides array.

 _Py_HashBytes() might be reused by unicode_hash() for PyUnicode_1BYTE_KIND.

I don't really see how unicode hashing should be related to bytes
hashing (even though apparently an (outdated?) test checks for that).

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[issue13411] Hashable memoryviews

2011-11-17 Thread Charles-François Natali

Charles-François Natali neolo...@free.fr added the comment:

I'm not sure that the register storage class specifier is still relevant with 
modern compilers: I'm pretty sure gcc ignores it unless -O0, and I think I've 
read somewhere Microsoft's compiler ignores it too.

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[issue13411] Hashable memoryviews

2011-11-17 Thread Antoine Pitrou

Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:

 I'm not sure that the register storage class specifier is still
 relevant with modern compilers: I'm pretty sure gcc ignores it unless
 -O0, and I think I've read somewhere Microsoft's compiler ignores it
 too.

I don't think so either. I was lazily moving the original code, but I
could remove those bits.

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[issue13358] HTMLParser incorrectly handles cdata elements.

2011-11-17 Thread Michael Brooks

Michael Brooks firealwayswo...@gmail.com added the comment:

Ok so until you fix this bug,  i'll be overriding HTMLParser with my fix,
becuase this is a blocking issue for my project.  My HTMLParser must behave
like a browser,  period end of story.

Thanks.

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 9:24 AM, Ezio Melotti rep...@bugs.python.orgwrote:


 Ezio Melotti ezio.melo...@gmail.com added the comment:

 It seems to me that the arguments are parsed correctly, but handle_data is
 called multiple time between handle_starttag and handle_endtag.
 This might happen, e.g. in case the source lines are fed one by one to the
 parser, but in this case seems to happen whenever / is found.
 (The tests didn't detect this because they join the data to avoid buffer
 artifacts.)
 I'm not sure if this can be considered a bug, but the situation can indeed
 be improved.

 --

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[issue13421] PyCFunction_* are not documented anywhere

2011-11-17 Thread Jesús Cea Avión

New submission from Jesús Cea Avión j...@jcea.es:

Functions PyCFunction_* are not documented. Searching online I found 
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/python/dev/738662 , so I am actually 
opening the issue and assigning to Georg :).

--
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components: Documentation
messages: 147817
nosy: georg.brandl, jcea
priority: normal
severity: normal
status: open
title: PyCFunction_* are not documented anywhere

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[issue13358] HTMLParser incorrectly handles cdata elements.

2011-11-17 Thread Ezio Melotti

Ezio Melotti ezio.melo...@gmail.com added the comment:

It already behaves like a browser, it just gives you data in chunks instead of 
calling handle_data() only once at the end.  The documentation is not clear 
about this though.  It says that feed() can be called several times, but it 
doesn't say that handle_data() (and possibly other methods) might get called 
more than once.  This seems to always be the case while calling feed() several 
times.

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[issue13358] HTMLParser incorrectly handles cdata elements.

2011-11-17 Thread Michael Brooks

Michael Brooks firealwayswo...@gmail.com added the comment:

Oah,  then there is a misunderstanding.  No browser will parse the html
that is declared within a javascript variable,  it must be treated as a
continues data segment (with cdata properties) until the exit
/\s*script\s* is encountered (and if this tag found anywhere,  even in a
quoted string it will still terminate this data segment,  because its a
cdata element).   The snip of html provided must only be a single data
segment. / alone is not a proper terminator.

Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 11:17 AM, Ezio Melotti rep...@bugs.python.org wrote:


 Ezio Melotti ezio.melo...@gmail.com added the comment:

 It already behaves like a browser, it just gives you data in chunks
 instead of calling handle_data() only once at the end.  The documentation
 is not clear about this though.  It says that feed() can be called several
 times, but it doesn't say that handle_data() (and possibly other methods)
 might get called more than once.  This seems to always be the case while
 calling feed() several times.

 --

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[issue13405] Add DTrace probes

2011-11-17 Thread Jesús Cea Avión

Changes by Jesús Cea Avión j...@jcea.es:


Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file23718/62e7091812bc.diff

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[issue13421] PyCFunction_* are not documented anywhere

2011-11-17 Thread Georg Brandl

Changes by Georg Brandl ge...@python.org:


--
assignee: georg.brandl - docs@python
nosy: +docs@python

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[issue13422] Subprocess: children hang due to open pipes

2011-11-17 Thread Felix Steffenhagen

New submission from Felix Steffenhagen fe...@sutus.com:

subprocess.Popen.communicate() hangs for daemonized subprocesses that leave a 
pipe open. The python caller, invoking the daemon subprocess, runs as long as 
the daemon process. This happens on POSIX platforms with python 2.7 as well as 
3.2. 

Please find attached a simple python daemon, which leaves stderr pipe open. It 
runs for 10 sec and then exits.

To reproduce the problem run the following start script:
##
# startpydaemon.py
import subprocess

cmd = 'python pydaemon.py'
print(Starting daemon that runs for 10 sec)
daemon = subprocess.Popen(cmd, 
  stdout=subprocess.PIPE,
  stderr=subprocess.PIPE,
  shell=True)
stdout, stderr = daemon.communicate()
print(Stdout:)
print(stdout)
print(Stderr:)
print(stderr)
##

Expected Behavior:
--
Daemon starter should exit immediately after the daemon process is initialized.

Actual Behavior:

Daemon starter waits for daemon process to be finished due to left open error 
pipe. 

Workaround:
---
One workaround is to not capture output from the left-open pipe. This way.

--
components: Library (Lib)
files: pydaemon.py
messages: 147820
nosy: fsteffenhagen
priority: normal
severity: normal
status: open
title: Subprocess: children hang due to open pipes
versions: Python 2.6, Python 3.2
Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file23719/pydaemon.py

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[issue13422] Subprocess: children hang due to open pipes

2011-11-17 Thread Felix Steffenhagen

Changes by Felix Steffenhagen fe...@sutus.com:


--
type:  - behavior

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[issue13422] Subprocess: children hang due to open pipes

2011-11-17 Thread Charles-François Natali

Charles-François Natali neolo...@free.fr added the comment:

 subprocess.Popen.communicate() hangs for daemonized subprocesses that 
 leave a pipe open. [...] which leaves stderr pipe open.

Of course: the daemon process (spawned by the second fork()) inherits the 
subprocess's stderr (since file descriptors are inherited upon fork), and 
communicate waits until the subprocess's stderr and stdout are closed (EOF 
returned).
And it's of course documented, see 
http://docs.python.org/dev/library/subprocess.html#subprocess.Popen.communicate 
:

Popen.communicate(input=None, timeout=None) 
Interact with process: Send data to stdin. Read data from stdout and stderr, 
until end-of-file is reached. Wait for process to terminate.


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[issue13215] multiprocessing Manager.connect() aggressively retries refused connections

2011-11-17 Thread Charles-François Natali

Charles-François Natali neolo...@free.fr added the comment:

 Apparently you forgot to upload the patch...

Told you I couldn't think straight :-)

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Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file23720/connection_retry.diff

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[issue13215] multiprocessing Manager.connect() aggressively retries refused connections

2011-11-17 Thread Antoine Pitrou

Antoine Pitrou pit...@free.fr added the comment:

Ok for me. Nice to see that piece of ugliness removed.

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[issue13349] Uninformal error message in index() and remove() functions

2011-11-17 Thread Terry J. Reedy

Terry J. Reedy tjre...@udel.edu added the comment:

The test suite has code (functions) that restrict the length on AssertEqual 
(and other) failure messages. (I do not know the location though.) Perhaps that 
can be reused. This almost seems like something that should be more easily 
available.

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[issue13422] Subprocess: children hang due to open pipes

2011-11-17 Thread Gregory P. Smith

Gregory P. Smith g...@krypto.org added the comment:

This looks like a bug in your daemon not in subprocess.  Your daemon is 
intentionally not closing its inherited stderr fd.

--
nosy: +gregory.p.smith
resolution:  - invalid
status: open - closed

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[issue13422] Subprocess: children hang due to open pipes

2011-11-17 Thread Felix Steffenhagen

Felix Steffenhagen fe...@sutus.com added the comment:

The behavior that the daemon is not closing stderr is intentional to reproduce 
the issue. This problem occured to me when I was invoking the samba init script 
on a Gentoo system.
Invoked from a bash, the initscript was terminating fine. But when I invoked it 
using the subprocess module, my python script hang.

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[issue13386] Document documentation conventions for optional args

2011-11-17 Thread Eric V. Smith

Eric V. Smith e...@trueblade.com added the comment:

I just ran across the other reason that having the actual default values 
documented is important. Sometimes I want to do this:

some_func(param if some_condition else use the default value)

If some_condition is False, I want the default behavior, if not, I want to pass 
in a parameter. If I don't know the real default value, I have to write:

if some_condition:
   some_func(param)
else:
   some_func()

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[issue7750] IOError when launching script under pdb with backslash in script path

2011-11-17 Thread Nu Kvar

Nu Kvar asafgreenb...@gmail.com added the comment:

this bug exist also in python 2.5 (of course)

and the same patch as above fixes it (of course).

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[issue7750] IOError when launching script under pdb with backslash in script path

2011-11-17 Thread Roundup Robot

Roundup Robot devn...@psf.upfronthosting.co.za added the comment:

New changeset f7dd5178f36a by Jason R. Coombs in branch '2.7':
PDB now will properly escape backslashes in the names of modules it executes. 
Fixes #7750
http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/f7dd5178f36a

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[issue7750] IOError when launching script under pdb with backslash in script path

2011-11-17 Thread Jason R. Coombs

Jason R. Coombs jar...@jaraco.com added the comment:

This bug doesn't appear to be present in 3.1, so the 2.7 patch is all that 
applies at this time.

--
resolution:  - fixed
status: open - closed
versions:  -Python 2.6

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[issue13386] Document documentation conventions for optional args

2011-11-17 Thread Eli Bendersky

Eli Bendersky eli...@gmail.com added the comment:

Eric,

Spot on :-) 
This is *exactly* the reason that led me to open issue 12875, which eventually 
led to this one.

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[issue13386] Document documentation conventions for optional args

2011-11-17 Thread Terry J. Reedy

Terry J. Reedy tjre...@udel.edu added the comment:

From Ezio's original post: '''
If a function has optional arguments but it doesn't accept keyword arguments, 
the func([arg1]) notation is used instead. ... The notation 
func([arg=default]) should never be used, and func([arg]) should be used 
only when keyword args are not accepted.
'''

In the following, I give objections to this PO (position only) rule and suggest 
an alternative ND (no default) rule: use 'name=default' when there is a default 
and '[name]' when there is not'.

The issue of whether an argument is required or optional is orthogonal to 
whether it can be passed by both position and name, only by name, or only by 
position. All combinations are possible. Optional arguments may or may not have 
a definition-time (or even run-time) default value, regardless of how passed. 
(In Python, use of *args and **kwds allows args to be optional without default.)

In the CPython stdlib, I think position-only arguments only occur with some, 
but only some, C functions. One can emulate such C functions in Python by doing 
the equivalent of what is going on with such C functions. Use a collective 
*varargs in the definition while naming the required and optional components of 
varargs in the doc as if they were the actual parameters. But I think we agree 
that emulating a limitation of C in Python is a bad idea.

So by using [] to mean both 'argument is optional' and 'function only take 
parameters by position' (or at least 'this parameter can only be passed to this 
function by position'), we are simultaneously documenting an intended and 
permanent feature of the Python function and a possibly temporary and unwanted 
side-effect of the current CPython implementation of that function. I think a 
separate PO indication might be better.

1: The PO rule goes against the effort to separate the Python language from the 
CPython implementation. With it, the doc for a function does not apply to other 
implementations that do not have the PO limitation for that function.

2: The PO rule is incomplete. It only marks an arg as position-only if it is 
optional, but not if it is required. And even if marking one arg as PO means 
that other args of the function might be, so 'watch out', there is still no 
special marking for a function with only required PO args. 

A separate sentence like For CPython, all args must be passed by position. 
would solve both of the above problems.

3: The PO rule does not account for the possibility that an argument can be 
passed by keyword, perhaps only by keyword, but have no default. This is 
possibly in Python with **kwds in the def and recognized optional names in the 
doc. With 'name=default' and '[name]' not allowed, how should such an argument 
be documented is a signature?

4: The PO rule omits useful information on defaults from the place of 
prominence - the signature header for the entry. Sometimes the information, 
needed by some users and all implementers, gets omitted altogether. For 
example, the doc string and manual entry give the signature for str.startwith as
  str.startswith(prefix[, start[, end]])
The unmentioned defaults are None, None.

In summary, the PO rule primarily indicates, but only for optional args, 
whether the arg can be passed by keyword or not. It secondarily indicates, but 
only if it can be passed by keyword, what its default is. But if fails if the 
arg can be passed by keyword but does not have a default. It also fails, in its 
primary role, for required args.

To me, this is all mixed up. Method of passing is not related to optionality. 
What is special about optional args, regardless of how passed, is the default 
value, if it has one. The ND rule is to give exactly this information. With an 
implementation-independent signature and a separate note on passing method, 
when needed, it solves all the problems listed above. For .startswith, I would 
like to see something like
   str.startswith(prefix, start=None, end=None) ...
   CPython: pass args by position only.

---
#13355 illustrates Eric's point with a twist.
random.triangular(low, high, mode) 
Return a random floating point number N such that low = N = high and with the 
specified mode between those bounds. The low and high bounds default to zero 
and one. The mode argument defaults to the midpoint between the bounds, giving 
a symmetric distribution.

The *actual* default for mode is None. The function *usually* acts if the 
default were as described. Twist 1 is that it does not actually calculate the 
midpoint, as it is not actually needed. Twist 2 is that there is currently a 
bug (easily fixed) such that triangular does not work if low=high and mode is 
not specified, whereas it does work if the true default None is passed ;-). So 
one needs to know the real default to avoid the bug.

Of course, as I said on the issue, all defaults should be given in the 
signature (by either PO or ND rule):
random.triangular(low=0.0, high=1.0, 

[issue13386] Document documentation conventions for optional args

2011-11-17 Thread Baptiste Carvello

Baptiste Carvello de...@baptiste-carvello.net added the comment:

Le 18/11/2011 05:29, Terry J. Reedy a écrit :
 
 In the following, I give objections to this PO (position only) rule and 
 suggest an alternative ND (no default) rule: use 'name=default' when there is 
 a default and '[name]' when there is not'.
 
 The issue of whether an argument is required or optional is orthogonal to 
 whether it can be passed by both position and name, only by name, or only by 
 position.

With this logic, you would need to use '[name=default]' when an argument
is optional *and* can be passed by name.

Sure, this notation is inherently redundant, but is has the advantage of
conveying both informations immediately to the user. It is also more
coherent with '[name]'.

But this is a big change from the current philosophy...

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[issue13349] Uninformal error message in index() and remove() functions

2011-11-17 Thread Petri Lehtinen

Petri Lehtinen pe...@digip.org added the comment:

I found safe_repr() from Lib/unittest/util.py. We would require a similar 
function, just implemented in C.

What is a good place to define such C helpers that could be used everywhere?

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