[RBW] Re: The New Riv

[pb]

Maybe the value positioning will make double top tubes impossible,
which development I would welcome.

:-)

pb

On Jul 3, 3:24 pm, Zack  wrote:
> Just got an email from Riv HQ, there is a new bike in the works - a truly
> affordable ($1400) complete bike.
>
> Cool stuff.
>
> Shipping is going up $1 too.  I think i'll live.

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[RBW] Re: The New Riv

[dougP]

Agree with Joe on the minimalist detail approach; keep it low
profile.  Using generic, non-group parts, it could be done.  You just
ride it for a while & after a year upgrade whatever is tired.  Wheels
will of necessity be machine built, no label hoops.  We'll probably
see very simple lugs, as on the last of the Japanese bikes.  Still,
$1,400 is a helluva price point.  I imagine REI, Surly, etc. place
humungous orders to keep the price down.  Time will tell.

dougP

On Jul 3, 5:41 pm, Eric Platt  wrote:
> I can see it being done. Especially with low-tier Shimano components.
> (Think Tiagra or no-name).  Most of which appear to work just fine. And
> there is probably a modern equivalent of old seamed, straight gauge tubing.
> The wheels might be the toughest part.
> It's something I'll keep an eye on, although I do have two Surly bikes that
> fulfill the role of "beater" (or better) quite well.
> Eric Platt
> St. Paul, MN
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
> > I probably shouldn't get too revved up about this model..the Simple One
> > didn't come in a size small enough for me.
>
> > On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 4:22:29 PM UTC-7, Seth Vidal wrote:
>
> >> On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 7:06 PM, Peter Pesce  wrote:
> >> > Interesting. A Simple One with a derailer?
> >> > I too am curious how you get the price down. It certainly wouldn't save
> >> anything to cast new, plain lugs just for one bike. Does the head tube
> >> badge really add that must cost?
>
> >> A simple one with a rear derailler? - see - that I would have no
> >> trouble endorsing. :)
>
> >> -sv
>
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[RBW] Re: The New Riv

[Ryan Ray]

>
> Maybe the value positioning will make double top tubes impossible, 
> which development I would welcome. 


Best comment ever.

But yes. Totally interested.

- Ryan

On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 3:59:03 PM UTC-7, pb wrote:
>
> Maybe the value positioning will make double top tubes impossible, 
> which development I would welcome. 
>
> :-) 
>
> pb 
>
> On Jul 3, 3:24 pm, Zack  wrote: 
> > Just got an email from Riv HQ, there is a new bike in the works - a 
> truly 
> > affordable ($1400) complete bike. 
> > 
> > Cool stuff. 
> > 
> > Shipping is going up $1 too.  I think i'll live.

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[RBW] Re: The New Riv

[Manuel Acosta]

Beater Rivendell?  I thought all Rivendells are suppose to be ridden to the 
ground?

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[RBW] Re: The New Riv

[pb]

On Jul 3, 3:35 pm, Peter Morgano  wrote:
> Intriguing, a build kit for a Riv is $1,200 so not sure how it would be
> possible to do a whole bike for $1,400 made out of lugged steel unless the
> are having 1k frames made in China or something like that.

Lessee...

Riv and Soma have a relationship.  Soma makes pretty nice lugged
frames, with a retail price point of $730.  The Soma frames are  made
in Taiwan.  The Riv frame is going to be made in Taiwan.

Hmmmnn a Prestige-framed Riv?  And the Soma frames even require
57mm brakes.

My only question is why would it take a year to produce?

~pb

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[RBW] Re: The New Riv

[charlie]

It probably takes a year to produce because Grant doesn't have $20,000,000 
in the bank.actually there are probably quite a few reasons why a 
company takes time to get something into production.everything from 
financing, parts vendors, production availability, company debt (back 
to financing) etc. plus I'm sure they want to hit the mark and insure 
its a good seller.

On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 10:02:46 PM UTC-7, pb wrote:
>
>
>
> On Jul 3, 3:35 pm, Peter Morgano  wrote: 
> > Intriguing, a build kit for a Riv is $1,200 so not sure how it would be 
> > possible to do a whole bike for $1,400 made out of lugged steel unless 
> the 
> > are having 1k frames made in China or something like that. 
>
> Lessee... 
>
> Riv and Soma have a relationship.  Soma makes pretty nice lugged 
> frames, with a retail price point of $730.  The Soma frames are  made 
> in Taiwan.  The Riv frame is going to be made in Taiwan. 
>
> Hmmmnn a Prestige-framed Riv?  And the Soma frames even require 
> 57mm brakes. 
>
> My only question is why would it take a year to produce? 
>
> ~pb

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[RBW] Re: The New Riv

[Tony Lockhart]

I think you're close Peter. Soma's Stanyan comes in around the $700 mark 
and they're using Tange. Velo-Orange also has a lugged frame retailing 
around $700, although they've been on sale forever. The recent post 
mentions tubing that's not as nice as other bikes so I imagine there's some 
wiggle room to get the price down. I'm not familiar with the intricacies of 
all the different types of tubing, but I imagine that they'll go for 
something a bit lower than the 4130 stuff. 

Budget wheels cost a couple hundred; Kalloy makes economic parts; faux 
leather saddle; Microshift drivetrain parts; and who knows.maybe they 
get some of the tires/handlebars/incidentals from Soma. I think they can 
definitely pull this off. The SimpleOnes didn't have any super exciting 
parts, however they all managed to work together in a grouppo that made the 
bike affordable. I really think they can do it, and I imagine it'll be much 
better than the racy stuff coming out of Trek, Cannondale, and Specialized.

On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 10:02:46 PM UTC-7, pb wrote:
>
>
>
> On Jul 3, 3:35 pm, Peter Morgano  wrote: 
> > Intriguing, a build kit for a Riv is $1,200 so not sure how it would be 
> > possible to do a whole bike for $1,400 made out of lugged steel unless 
> the 
> > are having 1k frames made in China or something like that. 
>
> Lessee... 
>
> Riv and Soma have a relationship.  Soma makes pretty nice lugged 
> frames, with a retail price point of $730.  The Soma frames are  made 
> in Taiwan.  The Riv frame is going to be made in Taiwan. 
>
> Hmmmnn a Prestige-framed Riv?  And the Soma frames even require 
> 57mm brakes. 
>
> My only question is why would it take a year to produce? 
>
> ~pb

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[RBW] Re: The New Riv

[pb]

On Jul 3, 10:19 pm, charlie  wrote:
> It probably takes a year to produce because Grant doesn't have $20,000,000
> in the bank.actually there are probably quite a few reasons why a
> company takes time to get something into production.everything from
> financing, parts vendors, production availability, company debt (back
> to financing) etc. plus I'm sure they want to hit the mark and insure
> its a good seller.

Ah, I don't think it would take $20,000,000 to bring a bike to
market.  I suspect that manufacturers in Taiwan are much more nimble
than that, and I suspect that parts manufacturers will be happy to
make sales.

Let's say Riv is shooting for a 35% margin, which would be very solid
in the bike world.  That's a cost of $910 each.  How many would they
do in a first run?  A hundred?  Two hundred?  I have no idea how many
units Rivendell can sell of a new, entry-level model, but let's say
two hundred, which might be enough to realize some production
efficiencies.  That represents a cost of $182,000.  Not an
insignificant amount of money, but not anywhere near $20,000,000.  As
far as ensuring that it's a "good seller" -- that might mean appealing
to a somewhat mainstream audience, which would be a bit of a switch in
posture and in marketing strategy.

Riv has had historic alliances with Merry Sales (if I recall correctly
-- weren't they the folks who distributed the Bleriot?  Or was it
QBP?), as well as with Soma.  Any of those could be very helpful in
lining up suppliers and supplies.

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[RBW] Re: The New Riv

[Beth H]

On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 10:00:45 PM UTC-7, Manuel Acosta wrote:
>
> Beater Rivendell?  I thought all Rivendells are suppose to be ridden to 
> the ground?
>
>
Well, yeah. Which is why some aspects of this development make me scratch 
my head.

"Cheap"? $1,400 ain't cheap if you're an hourly-wage worker. It isn't even 
"affordable". Perhaps find a different word. 
"Value-packed", maybe.

My shop does this with Surly Big Dummy frames. We build them up with a 
smart combination of new and used parts to keep the total price under 
$2,000. This is how you make bicycle transportation more affordable and 
more accessible. 

While I applaud RBW's stance on avoiding stuff made in China, I predict 
that this will become harder and harder to do -- and in a relatively short 
time. And when that happens, further developments at RBW will be 
interesting to watch.

Off to ride my BGR (Beautiful Green Riv) -- further into the ground.

Cheers --Beth

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[RBW] Re: The New Riv

[justinaugust]

$1400 isn't a huge premium over the CrossCheck and Long Haul Trucker completes, 
which I would suggest are eating away at the bottom of the Rivendell market. 
The LHT is SO common here in Philly,  built up straight from Surly. I think the 
are a lot of folks who could be upsold a couple hundred dollars to get lugs, 
Riv name, etc. 

My questions:
- 1" or 1 1/8"?
- Dropouts - horizontal to also do SS builds?
- Kickstand plate?

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[RBW] Re: The New Riv

[dougP]

On Jul 3, 10:00 pm, Manuel Acosta 
wrote:
> Beater Rivendell?  I thought all Rivendells are suppose to be ridden to the
> ground?

Manny:

You can't ride a Riv to the ground; they're just too tough.  You can
wear out a lot of parts, tear up the paint pretty bad; dent it
here'n'there, but as to seriously rendering it non-ridable / non-
fixable / only-good-to-recycle, you'd have to crash hard enough to
bend multiple tubes.

There's a series of photos, maybe in the Atlantis gallery, of one a
guy had ridden all over the world.  The shot that stands in my mind
was taken in Morocco.  The bike looked to be on it's last legs
visually.  Subsequent photos show a brand new looking bike after re-
paint.

You could probably neglect one into a condition where it would look
like a beater, but all the good components would still work, and the
nice lugs & headtube paint would give it away.

dougP

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[RBW] Re: The New Riv

[Garth]

I admire the desire for sure  but I am scratching my head ... 

First  even if that can build a prototype for $1400  the real bike 
will be more like $1600-1800. I base this on the their history of 
introducing frames at a price but they go up very quickly.  Look at the 
Atlantis and Bombadil for example  lol.  I know nothing of the 
economics of pricing a frame and labor costs and all that  but from 
what I've seen Riv frames have increased substantially compared to any 
other steel frames over the last 10 years.  Myself it doesn't matter where 
they are made and don't care for the argument of why it costs more to be 
built wherever.  Just ask what you want for the frames and be proud of it , 
however you want to do it. No need to justify it. Those that are happy to 
pay will do so. 

Second.  Compete with the LHT ?  That's a very tough sell.  Most people 
don't know what a lug is, let alone prefer them !  While I like lugs too, 
I'd have no qualms over buying a frame without them well.  Lugs are not 
infallible ... the workmanship is what matters most... to me.  You also 
have the Surly name  brand name matters ... like it or not.  When you 
say Surly  some people react like in the 70's with a Beetle  "AWW 
 I want one too :) "  just because it's perceived as something 
special.

Third, Parts.  A less expensive crankset is needed.  Taiwan has some decent 
ones... Andel brand comes to mind. That's what Surly uses on many of their 
bikes now in doubles and triples.
Wheels would have to be machine built of course ... but they *can* be good, 
it just depends on the machine I suppose. Cheaper Kalloy seatposts ...  
saddles .. stems bars ... all would be in the cards. 


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[RBW] Re: The New Riv

[clampe1...@cox.net]

>From the e-mail, it sounds as if this will be for complete builds only but 
if Rivendell offered a frameset I might be interested.  I would consider 
paying a small premium over a Surly or Soma for a Rivendell.  I'm building 
up an older frame with a nice selection of parts so a complete bike isn't 
really of interest to me.  
 
  
On Wednesday, July 4, 2012 11:01:19 AM UTC-5, justin...@gmail.com wrote:

> $1400 isn't a huge premium over the CrossCheck and Long Haul Trucker 
> completes, which I would suggest are eating away at the bottom of the 
> Rivendell market. The LHT is SO common here in Philly,  built up straight 
> from Surly. I think the are a lot of folks who could be upsold a couple 
> hundred dollars to get lugs, Riv name, etc. 
>
> My questions:
> - 1" or 1 1/8"?
> - Dropouts - horizontal to also do SS builds?
> - Kickstand plate?
>

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[RBW] Re: The New Riv

[grant]

Dropout-style is up to Keven and Brian--as are many-most-maybe all of the 
other stuff. Fixie fanatics will feel perturbed if it has verticals, and 
yet the arguments for verticals are good, too---. I will look things over, 
and have coached K and B minorly in frame design stuff--how to determine 
drop, how seat tube angle and it affect standover, and just some basics 
like that, but both are smart, both understand the nature of the bike and 
goal, and I'm looking forward to it. It may not happen--remember 
that---after a certain point, if we have to compromise too much to get the 
price where we want it to be, we'll just say, "Not for us" and be done with 
it.
We're not exactly "going after" Surley. We are all Surley fans here, and 
continue to recommend those bikes--and the Salsa Mariachi, and other 
relatively low-priced not dumb bikes. The LHT shouldn't be threatened by 
this bike---it'll be a different deal. Obviously they or any other two 
half-practical bikes can be set up to do the same stuff, but this is the 
bike we'd be doing whether or not those neat bikes existed. Good luck, 
Keven and Brian!

On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 3:24:49 PM UTC-7, Zack wrote:
>
> Just got an email from Riv HQ, there is a new bike in the works - a truly 
> affordable ($1400) complete bike.
>
> Cool stuff.  
>
> Shipping is going up $1 too.  I think i'll live.
>

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[RBW] Re: The New Riv

[Duplomacette]

Sad when a $1400 bike is referred to as a "beater".

On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 5:24:49 PM UTC-5, Zack wrote:
>
> Just got an email from Riv HQ, there is a new bike in the works - a truly 
> affordable ($1400) complete bike.
>
> Cool stuff.  
>
> Shipping is going up $1 too.  I think i'll live.
>

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[RBW] Re: The New Riv

[Joe Bernard]

I'm pretty sure it's meant affectionately/ironically.
 
Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

On Friday, July 6, 2012 5:37:58 PM UTC-7, Duplomacette wrote:

> Sad when a $1400 bike is referred to as a "beater".
>
> On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 5:24:49 PM UTC-5, Zack wrote:
>>
>> Just got an email from Riv HQ, there is a new bike in the works - a truly 
>> affordable ($1400) complete bike.
>>
>> Cool stuff.  
>>
>> Shipping is going up $1 too.  I think i'll live.
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[Cyclofiend]

On Jul 3, 2012, at 11:51 PM, pb wrote:


Riv has had historic alliances with Merry Sales (if I recall correctly
-- weren't they the folks who distributed the Bleriot?  Or was it
QBP?), as well as with Soma.  Any of those could be very helpful in
lining up suppliers and supplies.


QBP handled the Bleriot project.

Merry is the import/wholesale company behind SOMA.

I expect also that the Hillborne, Foy/Gomez, SimpLeone projects all  
developed relationships in Taiwan.


All of which combines to help them work this.  You have to find  
someone who will deliver what you spec, work with you to get it where  
it has to be on time, etc.  These are never trivial negotiations.


Plus I would expect a few prototype sample bikes would be delivered,  
tested and refined. Grant and company won't let a bike show up that  
doesn't ride like a Rivendell.   It certainly isn't just about making  
a bicycle frame with lugs.


I just think it's cool that they've shared that info with us.

- Jim / cyclofiend.com

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Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2012-07-03 at 23:51 -0700, pb wrote:
> 
> Ah, I don't think it would take $20,000,000 to bring a bike to
> market.  I suspect that manufacturers in Taiwan are much more nimble
> than that, and I suspect that parts manufacturers will be happy to
> make sales.

The Kogswell P/R came to market, and that was one guy working out of his
home.  I can't imagine he had somehow managed to accumulate twenty
million dollars (even if he'd spent his time sticking up banks or
selling crack!) before he got that project off the ground.



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Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[Peter Pesce]

I agree with Jim that a lot of the year is in prototyping. Especially if Grant 
is working with tubes and/or lugs he's not so accustomed to, he'll want to 
build up a couple and make sure they are still Rivs. The last thing he needs is 
to have a bike out there that doesn't live up to the name, no matter what 
price. 

There may certainly be a trip or two to Taiwan in there. And I recall a couple 
of stories where even after all the drawings and meetings and whatnot a 
prototype shows up that's still not right. Best to manage our expectations and 
say a year. 

- Pete in CT

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Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[Peter Morgano]

Unfortunately everyone cant own a Rivendell, it is a bit of a luxury item
but one that is beautiful and functional. So unlike a set of earrings or a
new watch you can actually do something with a 2k Rivendell. This new
project will at least lower that cost restriction but it will still be
"insane" for the Xmart crowd and those who get 30 year old racing bikes for
200 bucks off of CL but if does help to bring them into the fold.  Looking
at the site they have a complete Simpleone for $1,400 which they said is
about thier target on this new bike. I suppose if you used cheaper tubing
and did a solid color powdercoat you could get some microshift stuff on
there for around the same price point.

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Beth H  wrote:

> On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 10:00:45 PM UTC-7, Manuel Acosta wrote:
>>
>> Beater Rivendell?  I thought all Rivendells are suppose to be ridden to
>> the ground?
>>
>>
> Well, yeah. Which is why some aspects of this development make me scratch
> my head.
>
> "Cheap"? $1,400 ain't cheap if you're an hourly-wage worker. It isn't even
> "affordable". Perhaps find a different word.
> "Value-packed", maybe.
>
> My shop does this with Surly Big Dummy frames. We build them up with a
> smart combination of new and used parts to keep the total price under
> $2,000. This is how you make bicycle transportation more affordable and
> more accessible.
>
> While I applaud RBW's stance on avoiding stuff made in China, I predict
> that this will become harder and harder to do -- and in a relatively short
> time. And when that happens, further developments at RBW will be
> interesting to watch.
>
> Off to ride my BGR (Beautiful Green Riv) -- further into the ground.
>
> Cheers --Beth
>
> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[PATRICK MOORE]

I guess that the Xmart crowd often (not always, of course) spends high
$ on cars and big trucks a lot fancier than many listers own, along
with big TVs, electronic junk and fancy phones/service, at least to
judge by what I see in the parking lot and on the shelves at my (as
rare as possible) trips to the WalMart near my mother's house.

I hope the new bike has horizontal dropouts.

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Peter Morgano  wrote:
> Unfortunately everyone cant own a Rivendell, it is a bit of a luxury item
> but one that is beautiful and functional. So unlike a set of earrings or a
> new watch you can actually do something with a 2k Rivendell. This new
> project will at least lower that cost restriction but it will still be
> "insane" for the Xmart crowd and those who get 30 year old racing bikes for
> 200 bucks off of CL but if does help to bring them into the fold.  Looking
> at the site they have a complete Simpleone for $1,400 which they said is
> about thier target on this new bike. I suppose if you used cheaper tubing
> and did a solid color powdercoat you could get some microshift stuff on
> there for around the same price point.
>
> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Beth H  wrote:
>>
>> On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 10:00:45 PM UTC-7, Manuel Acosta wrote:
>>>
>>> Beater Rivendell?  I thought all Rivendells are suppose to be ridden to
>>> the ground?
>>>
>>
>> Well, yeah. Which is why some aspects of this development make me scratch
>> my head.
>>
>> "Cheap"? $1,400 ain't cheap if you're an hourly-wage worker. It isn't even
>> "affordable". Perhaps find a different word.
>> "Value-packed", maybe.
>>
>> My shop does this with Surly Big Dummy frames. We build them up with a
>> smart combination of new and used parts to keep the total price under
>> $2,000. This is how you make bicycle transportation more affordable and more
>> accessible.
>>
>> While I applaud RBW's stance on avoiding stuff made in China, I predict
>> that this will become harder and harder to do -- and in a relatively short
>> time. And when that happens, further developments at RBW will be interesting
>> to watch.
>>
>> Off to ride my BGR (Beautiful Green Riv) -- further into the ground.
>>
>> Cheers --Beth
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/JtO_wsfK12UJ.
>>
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>
>
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-
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For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
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Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[Peter Morgano]

+1 on all that, especially horizontal drops

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:44 AM, PATRICK MOORE  wrote:

> I guess that the Xmart crowd often (not always, of course) spends high
> $ on cars and big trucks a lot fancier than many listers own, along
> with big TVs, electronic junk and fancy phones/service, at least to
> judge by what I see in the parking lot and on the shelves at my (as
> rare as possible) trips to the WalMart near my mother's house.
>
> I hope the new bike has horizontal dropouts.
>
> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Peter Morgano 
> wrote:
> > Unfortunately everyone cant own a Rivendell, it is a bit of a luxury item
> > but one that is beautiful and functional. So unlike a set of earrings or
> a
> > new watch you can actually do something with a 2k Rivendell. This new
> > project will at least lower that cost restriction but it will still be
> > "insane" for the Xmart crowd and those who get 30 year old racing bikes
> for
> > 200 bucks off of CL but if does help to bring them into the fold.
>  Looking
> > at the site they have a complete Simpleone for $1,400 which they said is
> > about thier target on this new bike. I suppose if you used cheaper tubing
> > and did a solid color powdercoat you could get some microshift stuff on
> > there for around the same price point.
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Beth H  wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 10:00:45 PM UTC-7, Manuel Acosta wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Beater Rivendell?  I thought all Rivendells are suppose to be ridden to
> >>> the ground?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Well, yeah. Which is why some aspects of this development make me
> scratch
> >> my head.
> >>
> >> "Cheap"? $1,400 ain't cheap if you're an hourly-wage worker. It isn't
> even
> >> "affordable". Perhaps find a different word.
> >> "Value-packed", maybe.
> >>
> >> My shop does this with Surly Big Dummy frames. We build them up with a
> >> smart combination of new and used parts to keep the total price under
> >> $2,000. This is how you make bicycle transportation more affordable and
> more
> >> accessible.
> >>
> >> While I applaud RBW's stance on avoiding stuff made in China, I predict
> >> that this will become harder and harder to do -- and in a relatively
> short
> >> time. And when that happens, further developments at RBW will be
> interesting
> >> to watch.
> >>
> >> Off to ride my BGR (Beautiful Green Riv) -- further into the ground.
> >>
> >> Cheers --Beth
> >>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups
> >> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> >> To view this discussion on the web visit
> >> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/JtO_wsfK12UJ.
> >>
> >> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >> rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> >> For more options, visit this group at
> >> http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
> >
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>
>
>
> --
> "Push back against the age as hard as it pushes against you."
>
> Flannery O'Connor
>
> -
> Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
> For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
> http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
> -
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2012-07-04 at 11:53 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
> +1 on all that, especially horizontal drops

Why?  They're an enormous pain in the a$$ with no benefit for users of
derailleur drive trains, and this bike is coming with a derailleur drive
train.


> 
> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:44 AM, PATRICK MOORE 
> wrote:
> I guess that the Xmart crowd often (not always, of course)
> spends high
> $ on cars and big trucks a lot fancier than many listers own,
> along
> with big TVs, electronic junk and fancy phones/service, at
> least to
> judge by what I see in the parking lot and on the shelves at
> my (as
> rare as possible) trips to the WalMart near my mother's house.
> 
> I hope the new bike has horizontal dropouts.




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Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[James Warren]

Agreed. Verticals are so much nicer on a derailler bike, and you never have to 
worry about wheel slippage when using QR.

-Jim W.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 4, 2012, at 10:11 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

> On Wed, 2012-07-04 at 11:53 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
>> +1 on all that, especially horizontal drops
> 
> Why?  They're an enormous pain in the a$$ with no benefit for users of
> derailleur drive trains, and this bike is coming with a derailleur drive
> train.
> 
> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:44 AM, PATRICK MOORE 
>> wrote:
>>I guess that the Xmart crowd often (not always, of course)
>>spends high
>>$ on cars and big trucks a lot fancier than many listers own,
>>along
>>with big TVs, electronic junk and fancy phones/service, at
>>least to
>>judge by what I see in the parking lot and on the shelves at
>>my (as
>>rare as possible) trips to the WalMart near my mother's house.
>> 
>>I hope the new bike has horizontal dropouts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
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Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[Seth Vidal]

Heartily agreed, steve.

-sv
On Jul 4, 2012 1:11 PM, "Steve Palincsar"  wrote:

> On Wed, 2012-07-04 at 11:53 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
> > +1 on all that, especially horizontal drops
>
> Why?  They're an enormous pain in the a$$ with no benefit for users of
> derailleur drive trains, and this bike is coming with a derailleur drive
> train.
>
>
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:44 AM, PATRICK MOORE 
> > wrote:
> > I guess that the Xmart crowd often (not always, of course)
> > spends high
> > $ on cars and big trucks a lot fancier than many listers own,
> > along
> > with big TVs, electronic junk and fancy phones/service, at
> > least to
> > judge by what I see in the parking lot and on the shelves at
> > my (as
> > rare as possible) trips to the WalMart near my mother's house.
> >
> > I hope the new bike has horizontal dropouts.
>
>
>
>
> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[Peter Morgano]

Bah, horizontal drops worked well for decades and the give the option to go
SS or internal, why not have options?  Setting a wheel straight in a
dropout takes about 30 seconds.
On Jul 4, 2012 1:19 PM, "James Warren"  wrote:

> Agreed. Verticals are so much nicer on a derailler bike, and you never
> have to worry about wheel slippage when using QR.
>
> -Jim W.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 4, 2012, at 10:11 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 2012-07-04 at 11:53 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
> >> +1 on all that, especially horizontal drops
> >
> > Why?  They're an enormous pain in the a$$ with no benefit for users of
> > derailleur drive trains, and this bike is coming with a derailleur drive
> > train.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:44 AM, PATRICK MOORE 
> >> wrote:
> >>I guess that the Xmart crowd often (not always, of course)
> >>spends high
> >>$ on cars and big trucks a lot fancier than many listers own,
> >>along
> >>with big TVs, electronic junk and fancy phones/service, at
> >>least to
> >>judge by what I see in the parking lot and on the shelves at
> >>my (as
> >>rare as possible) trips to the WalMart near my mother's house.
> >>
> >>I hope the new bike has horizontal dropouts.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2012-07-04 at 13:22 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
> Bah, horizontal drops worked well for decades and the give the option
> to go SS or internal, why not have options?  Setting a wheel straight
> in a dropout takes about 30 seconds. 

Horizontal dropouts NEVER worked "well."  They worked lousy, and they
slipped even with the "good" style quick releases -- and these days, the
good style quick releases are getting scarce.  Why should most of us
suffer so that a tiny handful have the option to remove the supplied
drive train on this bargain basement Riv and pay extra to install an
internal gear hub?



> 
> On Jul 4, 2012 1:19 PM, "James Warren" 
> wrote:
> Agreed. Verticals are so much nicer on a derailler bike, and
> you never have to worry about wheel slippage when using QR.
> 
> -Jim W.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Jul 4, 2012, at 10:11 AM, Steve Palincsar
>  wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 2012-07-04 at 11:53 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
> >> +1 on all that, especially horizontal drops
> >
> > Why?  They're an enormous pain in the a$$ with no benefit
> for users of
> > derailleur drive trains, and this bike is coming with a
> derailleur drive
> > train.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:44 AM, PATRICK MOORE
> 
> >> wrote:
> >>I guess that the Xmart crowd often (not always, of
> course)
> >>spends high
> >>$ on cars and big trucks a lot fancier than many
> listers own,
> >>along
> >>with big TVs, electronic junk and fancy
> phones/service, at
> >>least to
> >>judge by what I see in the parking lot and on the
> shelves at
> >>my (as
> >>rare as possible) trips to the WalMart near my
> mother's house.
> >>
> >>I hope the new bike has horizontal dropouts.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[Garth]

I would embrace horizontal dropouts too.   I've never had an issue with one 
since the 70's ... ever .  Vertical I have had issues. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[PATRICK MOORE]

I agree that verticals are better for derailleurs, but what about
buyers who may want to use a ss hub or hub gear? Are they to be
deprived of the cheapest Rivendell?

Note that this comes from someone who overrode Grant's suggestion of
horizontals for two customs and ended up fixi-fying them: one with an
ENO and one with replacement 1010s.

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Seth Vidal  wrote:
> Heartily agreed, steve.
>
> -sv
>
> On Jul 4, 2012 1:11 PM, "Steve Palincsar"  wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 2012-07-04 at 11:53 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
>> > +1 on all that, especially horizontal drops
>>
>> Why?  They're an enormous pain in the a$$ with no benefit for users of
>> derailleur drive trains, and this bike is coming with a derailleur drive
>> train.
>>
>>
>> >
>> > On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:44 AM, PATRICK MOORE 
>> > wrote:
>> > I guess that the Xmart crowd often (not always, of course)
>> > spends high
>> > $ on cars and big trucks a lot fancier than many listers own,
>> > along
>> > with big TVs, electronic junk and fancy phones/service, at
>> > least to
>> > judge by what I see in the parking lot and on the shelves at
>> > my (as
>> > rare as possible) trips to the WalMart near my mother's house.
>> >
>> > I hope the new bike has horizontal dropouts.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
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Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[PATRICK MOORE]

Steve: First, no one who is competent ever had more than 1/2 second's
drawback putting a derailleur wheel into horizontal dropouts. Second,
as to the argument from who is to suffer for others' convenience, that
is surely a double edged sword and reduces to "I want" versus "they
want."

As to the availability of sturdy, steel internal-cam QRs, if all the
cheap MTB and second bike boom road bike QRs disappear off the market,
Riv can source them from some obscure Shanghai maker and add them to
the build kit for those who (strangely) want derailleurs * for a
sizable premium.

* Why would you want to mar, disfigure, upset, compromise, handicap,
uglify and depreciate a **Rivendell** -- even the cheapest!! -- with a
(gawd-DAMN!!) derailleur??!!

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

>
> Horizontal dropouts NEVER worked "well."  They worked lousy, and they
> slipped even with the "good" style quick releases -- and these days, the
> good style quick releases are getting scarce.  Why should most of us
> suffer so that a tiny handful have the option to remove the supplied
> drive train on this bargain basement Riv and pay extra to install an
> internal gear hub?

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Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[Peter Morgano]

20 years of riding at least 10 different bikes with horizontal drops,
never an issue with slipping and again 30 seconds to set up oh and I am 240
and rode fixes with horizontal drops, again no slipping. Options are nice,
especially if they want to get a broad audience.
On Jul 4, 2012 1:34 PM, "PATRICK MOORE"  wrote:

> I agree that verticals are better for derailleurs, but what about
> buyers who may want to use a ss hub or hub gear? Are they to be
> deprived of the cheapest Rivendell?
>
> Note that this comes from someone who overrode Grant's suggestion of
> horizontals for two customs and ended up fixi-fying them: one with an
> ENO and one with replacement 1010s.
>
> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Seth Vidal  wrote:
> > Heartily agreed, steve.
> >
> > -sv
> >
> > On Jul 4, 2012 1:11 PM, "Steve Palincsar"  wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, 2012-07-04 at 11:53 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
> >> > +1 on all that, especially horizontal drops
> >>
> >> Why?  They're an enormous pain in the a$$ with no benefit for users of
> >> derailleur drive trains, and this bike is coming with a derailleur drive
> >> train.
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:44 AM, PATRICK MOORE 
> >> > wrote:
> >> > I guess that the Xmart crowd often (not always, of course)
> >> > spends high
> >> > $ on cars and big trucks a lot fancier than many listers own,
> >> > along
> >> > with big TVs, electronic junk and fancy phones/service, at
> >> > least to
> >> > judge by what I see in the parking lot and on the shelves at
> >> > my (as
> >> > rare as possible) trips to the WalMart near my mother's house.
> >> >
> >> > I hope the new bike has horizontal dropouts.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
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> Groups
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>
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>
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Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[newenglandbike]

+1 for no problems with horiz. dropouts and QRs. I certainly haven't 
had any issues with slippage on my quickbeam with the stock Suzue QR hub, 
and I've really stomped on the pedals sometimes.  BUT, I do like 
vertical dropouts nonetheless, since they are just that much easier when 
you're fixing a flat or what not since the wheel is aligned as soon as you 
drop it in.If you want to make a SS/fixie, you have eccentric hubs.


On Wednesday, July 4, 2012 1:42:31 PM UTC-4, Peter M wrote:
>
> 20 years of riding at least 10 different bikes with horizontal drops,  
> never an issue with slipping and again 30 seconds to set up oh and I am 240 
> and rode fixes with horizontal drops, again no slipping. Options are nice, 
> especially if they want to get a broad audience.  
> On Jul 4, 2012 1:34 PM, "PATRICK MOORE"  wrote:
>
>> I agree that verticals are better for derailleurs, but what about
>> buyers who may want to use a ss hub or hub gear? Are they to be
>> deprived of the cheapest Rivendell?
>>
>> Note that this comes from someone who overrode Grant's suggestion of
>> horizontals for two customs and ended up fixi-fying them: one with an
>> ENO and one with replacement 1010s.
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Seth Vidal  wrote:
>> > Heartily agreed, steve.
>> >
>> > -sv
>> >
>> > On Jul 4, 2012 1:11 PM, "Steve Palincsar"  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, 2012-07-04 at 11:53 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
>> >> > +1 on all that, especially horizontal drops
>> >>
>> >> Why?  They're an enormous pain in the a$$ with no benefit for users of
>> >> derailleur drive trains, and this bike is coming with a derailleur 
>> drive
>> >> train.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:44 AM, PATRICK MOORE 
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> > I guess that the Xmart crowd often (not always, of course)
>> >> > spends high
>> >> > $ on cars and big trucks a lot fancier than many listers own,
>> >> > along
>> >> > with big TVs, electronic junk and fancy phones/service, at
>> >> > least to
>> >> > judge by what I see in the parking lot and on the shelves at
>> >> > my (as
>> >> > rare as possible) trips to the WalMart near my mother's 
>> house.
>> >> >
>> >> > I hope the new bike has horizontal dropouts.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
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>> Groups
>> >> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "Push back against the age as hard as it pushes against you."
>>
>> Flannery O'Connor
>>
>> -
>> Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
>> For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
>> http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
>> -
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[James Warren]

I've had slipping rear wheel problems, it's annoying, and I've even heard of 
some reputable people struggle with it. We're capable of functioning with 
horizontals, but as Steve said, they can be a pain.

- Jim W.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 4, 2012, at 10:42 AM, Peter Morgano  wrote:

> 20 years of riding at least 10 different bikes with horizontal drops,  never 
> an issue with slipping and again 30 seconds to set up oh and I am 240 and 
> rode fixes with horizontal drops, again no slipping. Options are nice, 
> especially if they want to get a broad audience. 
> 
> On Jul 4, 2012 1:34 PM, "PATRICK MOORE"  wrote:
> I agree that verticals are better for derailleurs, but what about
> buyers who may want to use a ss hub or hub gear? Are they to be
> deprived of the cheapest Rivendell?
> 
> Note that this comes from someone who overrode Grant's suggestion of
> horizontals for two customs and ended up fixi-fying them: one with an
> ENO and one with replacement 1010s.
> 
> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Seth Vidal  wrote:
> > Heartily agreed, steve.
> >
> > -sv
> >
> > On Jul 4, 2012 1:11 PM, "Steve Palincsar"  wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, 2012-07-04 at 11:53 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
> >> > +1 on all that, especially horizontal drops
> >>
> >> Why?  They're an enormous pain in the a$$ with no benefit for users of
> >> derailleur drive trains, and this bike is coming with a derailleur drive
> >> train.
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:44 AM, PATRICK MOORE 
> >> > wrote:
> >> > I guess that the Xmart crowd often (not always, of course)
> >> > spends high
> >> > $ on cars and big trucks a lot fancier than many listers own,
> >> > along
> >> > with big TVs, electronic junk and fancy phones/service, at
> >> > least to
> >> > judge by what I see in the parking lot and on the shelves at
> >> > my (as
> >> > rare as possible) trips to the WalMart near my mother's house.
> >> >
> >> > I hope the new bike has horizontal dropouts.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> >> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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> 
> 
> --
> "Push back against the age as hard as it pushes against you."
> 
> Flannery O'Connor
> 
> -
> Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
> For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
> http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
> -
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[Peter Morgano]

I like how anyone who wants options is like a leper, haha.  "you have
eccentric hubs"  Let us eat cake!
On Jul 4, 2012 2:06 PM, "James Warren"  wrote:

> I've had slipping rear wheel problems, it's annoying, and I've even heard
> of some reputable people struggle with it. We're capable of functioning
> with horizontals, but as Steve said, they can be a pain.
>
> - Jim W.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 4, 2012, at 10:42 AM, Peter Morgano 
> wrote:
>
> 20 years of riding at least 10 different bikes with horizontal drops,
> never an issue with slipping and again 30 seconds to set up oh and I am 240
> and rode fixes with horizontal drops, again no slipping. Options are nice,
> especially if they want to get a broad audience.
> On Jul 4, 2012 1:34 PM, "PATRICK MOORE"  wrote:
>
>> I agree that verticals are better for derailleurs, but what about
>> buyers who may want to use a ss hub or hub gear? Are they to be
>> deprived of the cheapest Rivendell?
>>
>> Note that this comes from someone who overrode Grant's suggestion of
>> horizontals for two customs and ended up fixi-fying them: one with an
>> ENO and one with replacement 1010s.
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Seth Vidal  wrote:
>> > Heartily agreed, steve.
>> >
>> > -sv
>> >
>> > On Jul 4, 2012 1:11 PM, "Steve Palincsar"  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, 2012-07-04 at 11:53 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
>> >> > +1 on all that, especially horizontal drops
>> >>
>> >> Why?  They're an enormous pain in the a$$ with no benefit for users of
>> >> derailleur drive trains, and this bike is coming with a derailleur
>> drive
>> >> train.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:44 AM, PATRICK MOORE 
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> > I guess that the Xmart crowd often (not always, of course)
>> >> > spends high
>> >> > $ on cars and big trucks a lot fancier than many listers own,
>> >> > along
>> >> > with big TVs, electronic junk and fancy phones/service, at
>> >> > least to
>> >> > judge by what I see in the parking lot and on the shelves at
>> >> > my (as
>> >> > rare as possible) trips to the WalMart near my mother's
>> house.
>> >> >
>> >> > I hope the new bike has horizontal dropouts.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups
>> >> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>>
>> --
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>>
>> Flannery O'Connor
>>
>> -
>> Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
>> For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
>> http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
>> -
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[PATRICK MOORE]

I used an ENO on my first (1994) Riv custom and found that the brake
bridge was low enough that my 32 mm tire would rub the fender under
said bridge unless I took the trouble to rotate the hub *downward*
when uptaking chain slack -- an operation that I personally judge to
be 25.97865473% harder than installing a wheel straight into
horizontal dropouts on a derailleur bike. (On another, non-Riv ENO
conversion, I discovered that the ENO's takeup would not extend to
three teeth, while at the same time discovering that it did extend to
marginalizing the rear brake pads unless I fiddled with a compromise
placement.)

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Peter Morgano  wrote:
> I like how anyone who wants options is like a leper, haha.  "you have
> eccentric hubs"  Let us eat cake!
>
> On Jul 4, 2012 2:06 PM, "James Warren"  wrote:
>>
>> I've had slipping rear wheel problems, it's annoying, and I've even heard
>> of some reputable people struggle with it. We're capable of functioning with
>> horizontals, but as Steve said, they can be a pain.
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2012-07-04 at 11:39 -0600, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
> 
> * Why would you want to mar, disfigure, upset, compromise, handicap,
> uglify and depreciate a **Rivendell** -- even the cheapest!! -- with a
> (gawd-DAMN!!) derailleur??!!
> 

You do realize the bike in question will come delivered with
derailleurs, according to the Riv blog?



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Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[PATRICK MOORE]

The question stands.

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 12:54 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
> On Wed, 2012-07-04 at 11:39 -0600, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
>>
>> * Why would you want to mar, disfigure, upset, compromise, handicap,
>> uglify and depreciate a **Rivendell** -- even the cheapest!! -- with a
>> (gawd-DAMN!!) derailleur??!!
>>
>
> You do realize the bike in question will come delivered with
> derailleurs, according to the Riv blog?
>
>
>
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For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
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Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[Philip Williamson]

I'm a giant fan of fixed gear bikes, but I'm tired of horizontal dropouts. 
If a bike is made for derailleurs, vertical makes more sense. I might 
prefer verticals all around, and use an eccentric ENO hub. Most of my 
aspirational bikes come with Phil eccentric bottom brackets to get the 
advantage of verticality. 

 Philip

Philip Williamson
www.biketinker.com

On Wednesday, July 4, 2012 11:54:17 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> On Wed, 2012-07-04 at 11:39 -0600, PATRICK MOORE wrote: 
> > 
> > * Why would you want to mar, disfigure, upset, compromise, handicap, 
> > uglify and depreciate a **Rivendell** -- even the cheapest!! -- with a 
> > (gawd-DAMN!!) derailleur??!! 
> > 
>
> You do realize the bike in question will come delivered with 
> derailleurs, according to the Riv blog? 
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[Joe Bernard]

People PLEASE. If Grant wants to snag some Surly/SOMA buyers with a cheaper 
Rivendell sold as a complete derailer bike, he's gonna use verticals like 
they do. If any Riv were a candidate for "eccentric dropouts", it would be 
the HS/Rosco/Bosco, which is not intended to have a front derailer. This 
not-for-big-hills cruiser is a better candidate for SS or IGH. 
 
Joe "please produce the Bosco" Bernard
Vallejo, CA. 

On Wednesday, July 4, 2012 11:59:55 AM UTC-7, Philip Williamson wrote:

> I'm a giant fan of fixed gear bikes, but I'm tired of horizontal dropouts. 
> If a bike is made for derailleurs, vertical makes more sense. I might 
> prefer verticals all around, and use an eccentric ENO hub. Most of my 
> aspirational bikes come with Phil eccentric bottom brackets to get the 
> advantage of verticality. 
>
>  Philip
>
> Philip Williamson
> www.biketinker.com
>
> On Wednesday, July 4, 2012 11:54:17 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 2012-07-04 at 11:39 -0600, PATRICK MOORE wrote: 
>> > 
>> > * Why would you want to mar, disfigure, upset, compromise, handicap, 
>> > uglify and depreciate a **Rivendell** -- even the cheapest!! -- with a 
>> > (gawd-DAMN!!) derailleur??!! 
>> > 
>>
>> You do realize the bike in question will come delivered with 
>> derailleurs, according to the Riv blog? 
>>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[newenglandbike]

"I like how anyone who wants options is like a leper, haha.  "you have 
eccentric hubs"  Let us eat cake!"

LOL!   It's a bike Rivendell might offer, that might have vertical 
dropouts, or might have horizontal ones. Both afford the user options, 
both have drawbacks.   Nobody is shunning/oppressing anybody, I don't 
think!  This is a bicycle forum, so expect some zealotry but don't let 
it make you feel bad.:)


On Wednesday, July 4, 2012 2:35:58 PM UTC-4, Peter M wrote:
>
> I like how anyone who wants options is like a leper, haha.  "you have 
> eccentric hubs"  Let us eat cake! 
> On Jul 4, 2012 2:06 PM, "James Warren"  wrote:
>
>> I've had slipping rear wheel problems, it's annoying, and I've even heard 
>> of some reputable people struggle with it. We're capable of functioning 
>> with horizontals, but as Steve said, they can be a pain.
>>
>> - Jim W.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jul 4, 2012, at 10:42 AM, Peter Morgano  
>> wrote:
>>
>> 20 years of riding at least 10 different bikes with horizontal drops,  
>> never an issue with slipping and again 30 seconds to set up oh and I am 240 
>> and rode fixes with horizontal drops, again no slipping. Options are nice, 
>> especially if they want to get a broad audience.  
>> On Jul 4, 2012 1:34 PM, "PATRICK MOORE"  wrote:
>>
>>> I agree that verticals are better for derailleurs, but what about
>>> buyers who may want to use a ss hub or hub gear? Are they to be
>>> deprived of the cheapest Rivendell?
>>>
>>> Note that this comes from someone who overrode Grant's suggestion of
>>> horizontals for two customs and ended up fixi-fying them: one with an
>>> ENO and one with replacement 1010s.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Seth Vidal  wrote:
>>> > Heartily agreed, steve.
>>> >
>>> > -sv
>>> >
>>> > On Jul 4, 2012 1:11 PM, "Steve Palincsar"  wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> On Wed, 2012-07-04 at 11:53 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
>>> >> > +1 on all that, especially horizontal drops
>>> >>
>>> >> Why?  They're an enormous pain in the a$$ with no benefit for users of
>>> >> derailleur drive trains, and this bike is coming with a derailleur 
>>> drive
>>> >> train.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:44 AM, PATRICK MOORE >> >
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> >> > I guess that the Xmart crowd often (not always, of course)
>>> >> > spends high
>>> >> > $ on cars and big trucks a lot fancier than many listers 
>>> own,
>>> >> > along
>>> >> > with big TVs, electronic junk and fancy phones/service, at
>>> >> > least to
>>> >> > judge by what I see in the parking lot and on the shelves at
>>> >> > my (as
>>> >> > rare as possible) trips to the WalMart near my mother's 
>>> house.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I hope the new bike has horizontal dropouts.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups
>>> >> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> >> To post to this group, send email to 
>>> rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
>>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> >> rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> >> For more options, visit this group at
>>> >> http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>>> >>
>>> > --
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>>> Groups
>>> > "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
>>> .
>>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> > rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> > For more options, visit this group at
>>> > http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> "Push back against the age as hard as it pushes against you."
>>>
>>> Flannery O'Connor
>>>
>>> -
>>> Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
>>> For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
>>> http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
>>> -
>>>
>>> --
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>>>
>>>  -- 
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Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[Peter Morgano]

Haha,  it was just a funny comment to me since it came off so patronizing.
We all have our perfect bike in our mind and doubtful we would all agree on
the same thing but it is fun to "discuss"  our difference in opinions.
On Jul 4, 2012 4:50 PM, "newenglandbike"  wrote:

>
> "I like how anyone who wants options is like a leper, haha.  "you have
> eccentric hubs"  Let us eat cake!"
>
> LOL!   It's a bike Rivendell might offer, that might have vertical
> dropouts, or might have horizontal ones. Both afford the user options,
> both have drawbacks.   Nobody is shunning/oppressing anybody, I don't
> think!  This is a bicycle forum, so expect some zealotry but don't let
> it make you feel bad.:)
>
>
> On Wednesday, July 4, 2012 2:35:58 PM UTC-4, Peter M wrote:
>>
>> I like how anyone who wants options is like a leper, haha.  "you have
>> eccentric hubs"  Let us eat cake!
>> On Jul 4, 2012 2:06 PM, "James Warren"  wrote:
>>
>>> I've had slipping rear wheel problems, it's annoying, and I've even
>>> heard of some reputable people struggle with it. We're capable of
>>> functioning with horizontals, but as Steve said, they can be a pain.
>>>
>>> - Jim W.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Jul 4, 2012, at 10:42 AM, Peter Morgano 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> 20 years of riding at least 10 different bikes with horizontal drops,
>>> never an issue with slipping and again 30 seconds to set up oh and I am 240
>>> and rode fixes with horizontal drops, again no slipping. Options are nice,
>>> especially if they want to get a broad audience.
>>> On Jul 4, 2012 1:34 PM, "PATRICK MOORE"  wrote:
>>>
 I agree that verticals are better for derailleurs, but what about
 buyers who may want to use a ss hub or hub gear? Are they to be
 deprived of the cheapest Rivendell?

 Note that this comes from someone who overrode Grant's suggestion of
 horizontals for two customs and ended up fixi-fying them: one with an
 ENO and one with replacement 1010s.

 On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Seth Vidal  wrote:
 > Heartily agreed, steve.
 >
 > -sv
 >
 > On Jul 4, 2012 1:11 PM, "Steve Palincsar"  wrote:
 >>
 >> On Wed, 2012-07-04 at 11:53 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
 >> > +1 on all that, especially horizontal drops
 >>
 >> Why?  They're an enormous pain in the a$$ with no benefit for users
 of
 >> derailleur drive trains, and this bike is coming with a derailleur
 drive
 >> train.
 >>
 >>
 >> >
 >> > On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:44 AM, PATRICK MOORE <
 bertin...@gmail.com>
 >> > wrote:
 >> > I guess that the Xmart crowd often (not always, of course)
 >> > spends high
 >> > $ on cars and big trucks a lot fancier than many listers
 own,
 >> > along
 >> > with big TVs, electronic junk and fancy phones/service, at
 >> > least to
 >> > judge by what I see in the parking lot and on the shelves
 at
 >> > my (as
 >> > rare as possible) trips to the WalMart near my mother's
 house.
 >> >
 >> > I hope the new bike has horizontal dropouts.
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> --
 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
 Groups
 >> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
 >> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.*
 *com .
 >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
 >> rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com
 .
 >> For more options, visit this group at
 >> http://groups.google.com/**group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en
 .
 >>
 > --
 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
 Groups
 > "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
 > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.**
 com .
 > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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 .
 > For more options, visit this group at
 > http://groups.google.com/**group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en
 .



 --
 "Push back against the age as hard as it pushes against you."

 Flannery O'Connor

 -
 Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
 For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
 http://resumespecialties.com/**index.html
 -

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Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[cyclotourist]

I've developed a problem w/ horizontals on one of my bikes. Never had a
problem before or with other bikes, but it's pretty frustrating and
possibly going to be an expensive fix. I foolishly ordered horizontal when
I had it built thinking I wanted the option of riding it SS. Mistakes were
made, lessons learned...

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:06 AM, James Warren wrote:

> I've had slipping rear wheel problems, it's annoying, and I've even heard
> of some reputable people struggle with it. We're capable of functioning
> with horizontals, but as Steve said, they can be a pain.
>
> - Jim W.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 4, 2012, at 10:42 AM, Peter Morgano 
> wrote:
>
> 20 years of riding at least 10 different bikes with horizontal drops,
> never an issue with slipping and again 30 seconds to set up oh and I am 240
> and rode fixes with horizontal drops, again no slipping. Options are nice,
> especially if they want to get a broad audience.
> On Jul 4, 2012 1:34 PM, "PATRICK MOORE"  wrote:
>
>> I agree that verticals are better for derailleurs, but what about
>> buyers who may want to use a ss hub or hub gear? Are they to be
>> deprived of the cheapest Rivendell?
>>
>> Note that this comes from someone who overrode Grant's suggestion of
>> horizontals for two customs and ended up fixi-fying them: one with an
>> ENO and one with replacement 1010s.
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Seth Vidal  wrote:
>> > Heartily agreed, steve.
>> >
>> > -sv
>> >
>> > On Jul 4, 2012 1:11 PM, "Steve Palincsar"  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, 2012-07-04 at 11:53 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
>> >> > +1 on all that, especially horizontal drops
>> >>
>> >> Why?  They're an enormous pain in the a$$ with no benefit for users of
>> >> derailleur drive trains, and this bike is coming with a derailleur
>> drive
>> >> train.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:44 AM, PATRICK MOORE 
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> > I guess that the Xmart crowd often (not always, of course)
>> >> > spends high
>> >> > $ on cars and big trucks a lot fancier than many listers own,
>> >> > along
>> >> > with big TVs, electronic junk and fancy phones/service, at
>> >> > least to
>> >> > judge by what I see in the parking lot and on the shelves at
>> >> > my (as
>> >> > rare as possible) trips to the WalMart near my mother's
>> house.
>> >> >
>> >> > I hope the new bike has horizontal dropouts.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups
>> >> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> >> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
>> .
>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> >> rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> >> For more options, visit this group at
>> >> http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>> >>
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups
>> > "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> > rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> > For more options, visit this group at
>> > http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "Push back against the age as hard as it pushes against you."
>>
>> Flannery O'Connor
>>
>> -
>> Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
>> For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
>> http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
>> -
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>>
>>  --
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>  --
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>



-- 
Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

**
“I believe in an America where millions of Americans believe in an America
that’s the America millions of Americans believe in. That’s the America I
love.”

-- 
You received this messa

Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[James Warren]

I apologize to Peter for sounding patronizing.

Happy 4th of July, everyone.

-Jim W.

P.S. Just came back from a great sibling/nephew ride in coastal San Diego. It 
was Hillbornian. Details to follow.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 4, 2012, at 2:45 PM, Peter Morgano  wrote:

> Haha,  it was just a funny comment to me since it came off so patronizing. We 
> all have our perfect bike in our mind and doubtful we would all agree on the 
> same thing but it is fun to "discuss"  our difference in opinions.
> 
> On Jul 4, 2012 4:50 PM, "newenglandbike"  wrote:
> 
> "I like how anyone who wants options is like a leper, haha.  "you have 
> eccentric hubs"  Let us eat cake!"
> 
> LOL!   It's a bike Rivendell might offer, that might have vertical dropouts, 
> or might have horizontal ones. Both afford the user options, both have 
> drawbacks.   Nobody is shunning/oppressing anybody, I don't think!  This 
> is a bicycle forum, so expect some zealotry but don't let it make you feel 
> bad.:)
> 
> 
> On Wednesday, July 4, 2012 2:35:58 PM UTC-4, Peter M wrote:
> I like how anyone who wants options is like a leper, haha.  "you have 
> eccentric hubs"  Let us eat cake!
> 
> On Jul 4, 2012 2:06 PM, "James Warren"  wrote:
> I've had slipping rear wheel problems, it's annoying, and I've even heard of 
> some reputable people struggle with it. We're capable of functioning with 
> horizontals, but as Steve said, they can be a pain.
> 
> - Jim W.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Jul 4, 2012, at 10:42 AM, Peter Morgano  wrote:
> 
>> 20 years of riding at least 10 different bikes with horizontal drops,  never 
>> an issue with slipping and again 30 seconds to set up oh and I am 240 and 
>> rode fixes with horizontal drops, again no slipping. Options are nice, 
>> especially if they want to get a broad audience. 
>> 
>> On Jul 4, 2012 1:34 PM, "PATRICK MOORE"  wrote:
>> I agree that verticals are better for derailleurs, but what about
>> buyers who may want to use a ss hub or hub gear? Are they to be
>> deprived of the cheapest Rivendell?
>> 
>> Note that this comes from someone who overrode Grant's suggestion of
>> horizontals for two customs and ended up fixi-fying them: one with an
>> ENO and one with replacement 1010s.
>> 
>> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Seth Vidal  wrote:
>> > Heartily agreed, steve.
>> >
>> > -sv
>> >
>> > On Jul 4, 2012 1:11 PM, "Steve Palincsar"  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, 2012-07-04 at 11:53 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
>> >> > +1 on all that, especially horizontal drops
>> >>
>> >> Why?  They're an enormous pain in the a$$ with no benefit for users of
>> >> derailleur drive trains, and this bike is coming with a derailleur drive
>> >> train.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:44 AM, PATRICK MOORE 
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> > I guess that the Xmart crowd often (not always, of course)
>> >> > spends high
>> >> > $ on cars and big trucks a lot fancier than many listers own,
>> >> > along
>> >> > with big TVs, electronic junk and fancy phones/service, at
>> >> > least to
>> >> > judge by what I see in the parking lot and on the shelves at
>> >> > my (as
>> >> > rare as possible) trips to the WalMart near my mother's house.
>> >> >
>> >> > I hope the new bike has horizontal dropouts.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> >> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> >> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> >> rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> >> For more options, visit this group at
>> >> http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>> >>
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> > "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> > rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> > For more options, visit this group at
>> > http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> "Push back against the age as hard as it pushes against you."
>> 
>> Flannery O'Connor
>> 
>> -
>> Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
>> For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
>> http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
>> -
>> 
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
>> rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at 
>> http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" 

Re: [RBW] Re: The New Riv

[Peter Morgano]

No need to apologize, hope everyone stays safe today.
On Jul 4, 2012 6:56 PM, "James Warren"  wrote:

> I apologize to Peter for sounding patronizing.
>
> Happy 4th of July, everyone.
>
> -Jim W.
>
> P.S. Just came back from a great sibling/nephew ride in coastal San Diego.
> It was Hillbornian. Details to follow.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 4, 2012, at 2:45 PM, Peter Morgano  wrote:
>
> Haha,  it was just a funny comment to me since it came off so patronizing.
> We all have our perfect bike in our mind and doubtful we would all agree on
> the same thing but it is fun to "discuss"  our difference in opinions.
> On Jul 4, 2012 4:50 PM, "newenglandbike"  wrote:
>
>>
>> "I like how anyone who wants options is like a leper, haha.  "you have
>> eccentric hubs"  Let us eat cake!"
>>
>> LOL!   It's a bike Rivendell might offer, that might have vertical
>> dropouts, or might have horizontal ones. Both afford the user options,
>> both have drawbacks.   Nobody is shunning/oppressing anybody, I don't
>> think!  This is a bicycle forum, so expect some zealotry but don't let
>> it make you feel bad.:)
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, July 4, 2012 2:35:58 PM UTC-4, Peter M wrote:
>>>
>>> I like how anyone who wants options is like a leper, haha.  "you have
>>> eccentric hubs"  Let us eat cake!
>>> On Jul 4, 2012 2:06 PM, "James Warren"  wrote:
>>>
 I've had slipping rear wheel problems, it's annoying, and I've even
 heard of some reputable people struggle with it. We're capable of
 functioning with horizontals, but as Steve said, they can be a pain.

 - Jim W.

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Jul 4, 2012, at 10:42 AM, Peter Morgano 
 wrote:

  20 years of riding at least 10 different bikes with horizontal
 drops,  never an issue with slipping and again 30 seconds to set up oh and
 I am 240 and rode fixes with horizontal drops, again no slipping. Options
 are nice, especially if they want to get a broad audience.
 On Jul 4, 2012 1:34 PM, "PATRICK MOORE"  wrote:

> I agree that verticals are better for derailleurs, but what about
> buyers who may want to use a ss hub or hub gear? Are they to be
> deprived of the cheapest Rivendell?
>
> Note that this comes from someone who overrode Grant's suggestion of
> horizontals for two customs and ended up fixi-fying them: one with an
> ENO and one with replacement 1010s.
>
> On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Seth Vidal  wrote:
> > Heartily agreed, steve.
> >
> > -sv
> >
> > On Jul 4, 2012 1:11 PM, "Steve Palincsar"  wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, 2012-07-04 at 11:53 -0400, Peter Morgano wrote:
> >> > +1 on all that, especially horizontal drops
> >>
> >> Why?  They're an enormous pain in the a$$ with no benefit for users
> of
> >> derailleur drive trains, and this bike is coming with a derailleur
> drive
> >> train.
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 11:44 AM, PATRICK MOORE <
> bertin...@gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> > I guess that the Xmart crowd often (not always, of course)
> >> > spends high
> >> > $ on cars and big trucks a lot fancier than many listers
> own,
> >> > along
> >> > with big TVs, electronic junk and fancy phones/service, at
> >> > least to
> >> > judge by what I see in the parking lot and on the shelves
> at
> >> > my (as
> >> > rare as possible) trips to the WalMart near my mother's
> house.
> >> >
> >> > I hope the new bike has horizontal dropouts.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups
> >> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> >> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.
> **com .
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >> rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com
> .
> >> For more options, visit this group at
> >> http://groups.google.com/**group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en
> .
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> "Push back against the age as hard as it pushes against you."
>
> Flannery O'Connor
>
> -
> Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
> For professional resumes,